Define a good player

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

Someone who is decent at their class.

Knows their basic rotations.

Uses most abilities when they need to be used.

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I feel that is far to vague to be criteria, and as was pointed out someone can be good at their job and still a jerk to play with. I'd find a player who flubs rotations, still learning, but who has a good personality much more preferable to play with then a cutting edge raid player who started throwing a fit anything went less the clockwork.

A good player in my eyes is a player that is enjoying their time with the game. Though personally being a good player and a skilled player do not necessarily go hand-in-hand. Also does not mean I would personally enjoy my time playing with such a good player, since that does mean if one player or a group friends is trolling someone either with rescue, cards, ice mage, and melee rdm etc . . . if they are having fun and enjoying their time with the game in my eyes they are a good player just not a player I will want to play with.

Hope that makes sense.

I would suggest trying to diversify the "tags" given to players. It's just my opinion, but I'll throw it down here for consideration anyway.

Most people whose posts I have read in this thread seem to encompass a very wide spectrum of traits under the "good player" definition they use. Then, by extension, the opposite would need to be attributed to the "bad player". However this is very destructive to discussions and, more importantly, disrespectful to players that do not match either. Majority of the players do not. The definitions used here are so wide that barely anyone could possibly match them.

They encompass traits like "pleasant", "friendly", "skilled", "experienced", "knowledgeable", "social" and more. Basically they are idealizations. However, the terms "good" and "bad" player used in very serious discussions about strictly specific topics. This muddles those discussions and leads to misunderstandings and eventually to arguments.

Best definitions are short definitions, applying to as few aspects as possible. The ones present here are more suited for discussion about what is considered mandatory for an "ideal" player or "desired" player in my opinion. This all makes them also universal. The definitions used by many here apply only onto specific games (MMO's, and ones with little competitiveness to boot), while they ideally should be applicable to all games, including single-player games.


Well, this is my input. My definition is few posts up, so I won't repeat that. Please consider this as "food for thought" more than an attack of any sort. But...to each their own. If the above won't convince the one reading it...so be it.

A good player is one that takes creative criticism and keeps an open mind to improving.

Is able to keep up with their job, uses CD, and is well prepared both in game and can keep communication productive.

This thread somewhat remind me of an old Dark Legacy Comics :)

Maybe out of topics, but for whose interested, here you go : http://www.darklegacycomics.com/408

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Originally Posted by Gemina

Oh god. That last one didn't come out right either, and I'm bored at the dmv. OK, I'm just going to stop posting now.

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It's the DMV. {You have my deepest sympathies}

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Originally Posted by Asiragan

This thread somewhat remind me of an old Dark Legacy Comics :)

Maybe out of topics, but for whose interested, here you go : http://www.darklegacycomics.com/408

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Perfect. You win the thread.

A good player would very rarely say: "I'm an awesome player, I'm perfect at my class".

A good player would likely say: "I'm decent, that last boss went well, but I still have plenty to learn and room for improvement".

A good player doesn't bash themselves and say "I lost agro once, I suck, I'm rubbish!", that's an unhealthy attitude towards learning from minor mistakes. The good player would be able to see a smooth run for what it is and look at the small mistake positively. "That went great, but I see where I can do an even better run next time, can't wait to try!"

A good player both listens to tactics openly and is able to analyse the fight themselves. End result is they know the encounter well and develop the optimal personal strategy through both experience and learning from others.

A good player doesn't expect to walk into a new encounter for the first time and sail through flawlessly. It's unrealistic and an unhealthy view that some players develop. "I beat it first time, it's easy for a good player like me, you'd suck if you didn't find that easy!". Chances are that player muddled through and got lucky, blind to a whole range of mechanics. The good player is on the lookout to see the encounter in detail.

A good player is friendly with their team and offers help in any way possible. This is vital. They recognize the team is what beats bosses, not one individual. Good morale and a relaxed group having fun will perform much better than a group harboring resentment and refusing to discuss tactics or ask for help due to fear of abuse.

A great player/Skilled player is a top pvp'er and clears current savage ultimate content every patch.

Good player:

1) Understanding of fight Mechanics: A good player knows what the fight mechanics do, the agreed strategy for responding to them, plus the appropriate way to react when the agreed strategy fails.

2) Understanding of their own job: A good player knows how to play their own job properly and understands the intricacies of their own job, plus how to adapt their skill usage to the mechanics of the fight. I.e. Holding off using gap closers for damage when anticipating movement, pre-positioning to avoid having to interrupt casts, holding off on damage buffs before a boss jump, etc.

3) Basic knowledge of how other jobs interact with their own job: A good player knows how other jobs interact with the job they play, i.e. they can recognise the damage buffs that may be applied to them and the debuffs that may be applied to the boss, and knowing how to react optimally to them, e.g. aligning own buffs with raid buffs, refreshing dots near the end of the raid buff window, etc.


Great player:

1) Mechanics: A great player understands not only what they themselves have to do to respond to a mechanic, but also what others have to do, such that they could - where possible - fill in for others where others mess up. E.g. Sacrificing themselves on a tower to prevent a wipe in Sephi Ex, if a tank is not around to take it.

2) Own Job: A great player not only has a deep understanding of how their own job functions, but is also able, given the mechanics of a fight, map out an optimal order of skill usage to achieve optimal DPS/healing efficiciency or to minimise healer burden - for tanks.

3) Other Jobs: A great player understands how other jobs function and how best to support them or work with them to optimise raid DPS. I.e. How to align buffs/debuffs optimally with the group - e.g. holding off on own buffs for Trick Attack window, etc. The difference from a good player is - I would say - anticipation vs. reaction. A good player can react to raid buffs/debuffs on boss, but a great player knows the cooldowns of major buffs/debuffs and is able to hold off on their own buffs in anticipation of these buffs/debuffs (e.g. Trick Attack).


And lastly, but also very importantly - this can be grouped either under "good player" or "great player":

4) Raid awareness: A good or great player has the raid awareness to notice what is going on around them, is able to identify where others are struggling/mess up, so that they could adjust/fill in for others.



Well, that's my take on it. It's written in a bit of a hurry, so it might not be that insightful or well-structured. Might write another post on it, if I get around to thinking about this topic in more depth. This is a topic which has interested me for some time as well.

One who can keep the final win condition (e.g. clearing the encounter, by whatever means best achieves that as quickly as possible) in mind and remember to always process backwards from that, but can also readily identify all or the vast majority of nearer win conditions applicable to him (cost balances, sync, uptime, cleave, etc., etc.), and can maintain the focus necessary to execute appropriately upon most of them.

In other words, if it doesn't at least indirectly clear the encounter more assuredly or quickly, it's not relevant, but anything that does cannot be dismissed just due to preconceptions or nearer win conditions; the nearer win conditions should be reconsidered to ensure they're the best match for what's actually necessary.

If a player can understand and make use of that, they tend to be a good player, whatever the game.

A good player... - doesn't get an elitist attitude on every single player he meets just because someone doesn't use things 100% perfect. - adapts to the situation accordingly, with clear objective taking priority, depending on how his job-related kit allows it (like RDM being able to cast emergency heals/rezz). - isn't defined by how much skill he's got in terms of clearing difficult content while being sour and brash to other people but how positive he can interact with his teammates. I'd almost add that a good player sometimes needs to stay silent in cross-world parties so things don't go out of hand.

Good Player:

Not beein a liability! that means: "He knows the job(s) he is playing with a fair amount, capable of adapting, good attitude, thinks more about the team effort and not just himself. Points out mistakes or other things like discussing mechanics etc. without breaking out in a rant of insults."

capable or critisizing people properly, aswell as reactiing properly when receiving some.

If it so happens that there is somebody who simply holds the group back, capable of pointing that out in a neutral way without an outburst of rage. (If the pointed out person feels offended, it is not the Players Concern)

You cannot always be Mr. Nice guy or whatever so soemtimes it is nessesary to rais up yout voice to make the point clear. (as above not inan outburst of rage)

A good player is me! And if you don't think so you can talk to the person that pays my sub... Me!

I don't define "good" as based on what level of an instance a player has completed. As an older person with the slower reflexes that come with age I am getting too slow for thing like Ultima but still consider myself a decent player for the content I play. I consider a good player someone who can generally hold their own in group content. When they make a mistake, as we all do, it is such that the other players can cover for it and the perpetrator is back to contributing quickly.

Are we defining a good player in the context of this game or overall? If latter then there's more to being a skilled player. It's being a skilled performer no matter what you do and this carries into your activities, including gaming.

You might think: "but there might be people only skilled in games" but that's not really true, is it.

A skilled performance in gaming, experience and time spent gaming excluded, is the following acts performed:

Controlled and co-ordinated performance
-Smooth, co-ordinated execution of actions that comes naturally.

Goal oriented and efficient performance
-Your actions, social included, have a purpose and goal in the context of the game. You know what to do, why, if and when, efficiently.

Consistent and accurate performance
-You can repeat the same actions in the context of the game repeatedly with the same or better results. You strife to learn patterns to gain better understanding of your task and role.

A skilled player is ambiguous. Much more than can be put into words. There are so many factors that come into play when talking about "skill".
What is skill? Is it a deep understanding of actions and performing said actions, resulting in an outcome, in a way that we interpret as skill?

We can go even deeper but i have a fever and cold. Was nice to ramble though. Typing this on a phone is a pain.

There was a post like this back in december....I will post the same thing here that I posted there...


The willingness to learn, to teach, and to aid others makes one a good player. We all start somewhere.

Good responses thus far. I was just curious. Also going through a lot of things in my personal life, so it's been kinda beaten into me to take a break and stop being over-critical of myself. So, I'm taking a break. As for the few questions about what qualifies as a good player...there is no single answer to this. It's your own personal opinion on what a good player is. You don't have to follow anybody else's definition on this: it's what you personally feel is a good player in FFXIV.

Summoner mains. Totally not biased. ^^

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Originally Posted by NewAgeDoom

Summoner mains. Totally not biased. ^^

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Well, we summoners are generally a cool lot, without bias :P

Anyway, while I do feel like "good" is a very subjective term, I'll just say I agree with the sentiment that anyone who is willing to learn and ask for help when needed, help others and give advice when they can, and just overall have a good attitude will probably go pretty far. Skill is a nice thing to develop, and one should always strive to do their best and improve, but it's far from the only thing a player should concern themselves with. Yeah, you can do well numbers-wise, but if you're chewing out your party members for little-to-no reason and/or not listening to them when they need you to do something, you're going to be causing a lot of problems.

A good FFXIV player in my opinion:

1. They pay attention the the environment and the group equally. No "I'm the (insert role) and this is my world"
2. They are open to learn, whether a new player or a veteran player. everyone can improve and nothing is perfect.
3. They think outside the box, and don't simply min/max. There is more to playing this game than the popular YouTube methods deemed as "good".

I didn't read every reply yet, but are we defining the term objectively or subjectively? because if the former, obviously there are stats for that. the way OP was expressed it seems TS wants to know how to measure skill in FFXIV. if the latter, the rest of the replies seem to answer that. I'd like to contribute a subjective take on it as well. as a longtime MMO player, "good" in my experience has a connotation of not being the best, just above average. mostly a softcore player--spends enough time to be updated with gear, content, etc. but not part of the "first in the world" clique. maybe because they don't have a static, a lone hunter, the guild crafter etc.. could be a hardcore, but not part of the upper percentile with the rarest stuff skill and time can buy. good player =/= good person. they can be as elitist as they come, but unlike other arrogant know-it-alls, they have the skills to back it up. also, statistically the older gaming generation because science says competitive e-gaming peaks around the mid-20s (the best player age I guess) so if you're older than that, optimal APMs may not be as easy for you. that said I'm just in the decent/average category.

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Originally Posted by duvvvv

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I dunno if late 20's already counts as older gaming generation already, but i can pretty much see my type of player in the majority of your description above. I didn't think anyone could put it into words. Big thumbs up for accomplishing this and thanks.

I have always loved this kind of question. Most players seem to think only the top 1% are "good"players. But honestly those are exceptional players. A good player is harder to define. Some will say its if their damage is good, other will say if they can do mechanics.
IMO, a good player understands their job, has a decent grasp on their combos/priorities with abilities, and can do mechanics. Good damage will come, for example, if you do the other.

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Originally Posted by Veliena

I have always loved this kind of question. Most players seem to think only the top 1% are "good"players. But honestly those are exceptional players.

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agree. kudos to TS for throwing this question out there for people to discuss.

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Originally Posted by Darric

I dunno if late 20's already counts as older gaming generation already, but i can pretty much see my type of player in the majority of your description above. I didn't think anyone could put it into words. Big thumbs up for accomplishing this and thanks.

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not at all :) I think I've simply echoed what longtime MMO players already understand. as for the age, here are some references that also say why some pro-gamers retire at 26. it's not just the physical but also social factors that weigh in. a favorite Chinese animated series "The King's Avatar" touches on this as well.

Nobody.

Everyone is great in their own way after hard work and practice.

everyone messes up until they get the hang of things.

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Originally Posted by duvvvv

I think I've simply echoed what longtime MMO players already understand. as for the age, here are references that also say why some pro-gamers retire at 26. it's not just the physical but also social factors that weigh in.

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Depressingly, I can agree with this both in terms of reactions and social lingo. My own raid group is a bit of a retirement home for the most part, but half of the time when I cover and help other groups I'm pretty much sat there nodding and smiling without half a clue what they are going on about :confused:

I guess my idea of a good player is a little strange. I think a good player is someone who is pleasant to group with and takes and gives advice. Someone who helps people improve and strives to improve themselves. Rather than just shitting on players and refusing to improve because “you don’t pay my sub”

I think it's not just a matter of being able to clear something or not. You have to take into account that every single person that manages to clear ANY Savage raid, had to spend a considerable amount of time learning the mechanics, how avoid dying, etc. Watching a video helps, but things like timing and muscle memory can only be obtained by messing up.

I'd say the difference between good and bad players might lie in how long it takes for them to be able to successfully reach that stage of "encounter mastery", where they know every little detail of the fight. Beyond that, I'd say doing whatever it takes to maximize your damage will set you apart from most other players as well. But obviously, before you're able to do that, you first need to learn the fight.

I am not concerned with the difficulty of content that a player can clear when I consider attributes that a good player displays. Players who make the effort to work as a team are good players. There is more involved with teamwork than just skill.

Skill is important and players who don't make the attempt to know their jobs are difficult to have in a party. I think it shows a lack of respect to not make the effort to understand how your skills work. In the same way, players who don't know what their role should be in a party or who refuse to do their role in a party are not good players. Dps players who consistently run ahead of the tank and pull mobs come to mind. That said, I am very patient with players who are learning their job or their role in a party. I'll happily run the same content wipe after wipe with players who are making the effort to learn. You never know; the player who is struggling but getting better in your party might turn out to be the next great raid leader after some practice. The important part here is that a good player is making the effort to improve because they want to contribute their fair share to the party.

Another important element to being a good player is being able to play well with others. Some people treat group content like single player content and that mentality makes for frustrating and difficult runs for the whole group. Some other very skilled players expect all random duty finder players to be as skilled as they are and get rude when party members are still learning their jobs or are familiarizing themselves with some new content. I don't like to be in parties with either of these two types of players. I love being in parties with players who treat the other party members as people and not as NPCs and with players who allow for the less experienced to learn.

There are good and bad players at all skill levels. To me, what matters more is teamwork and a willingness to grow as a player. A friendly demeanor goes a long way also.

Good players are excellent to each other.

A good player is consistent. Consistent damage consistent proper handling of mechanics this is a game that requires you to do the same things at the same time every single time so you should be consistent.

A Good Player is one who doesn't wipe the party/alliance. A Good player will do mechanics, and even if their new, they can learn as they go (on the fly). A Good player will not tank groups of mobs in dps stance and use cooldowns effectively. A Good player will not only heal the party to ensure victory but will also contribute to damage output and make the runs go faster. A Good player will not prepull the boss before the tank goes to grab it. A Good player does what's best for the team (party) not just for him/herself.

Last, but certainly not least, a Good player is not a ***k. Treat others the way you want to be treated.

There's no point. Everyone is just saying what they happen to like or dislike. Kaiva thinks a good player is one who beats the hardest content in the game. Others think a good player is mechanically proficient and doesn't waste other people's time. Others think that a good player is kind, and easy to get along with. All it does is says something about the person who defines it.

Just play the game and have fun.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

There's no point. Everyone is just saying what they happen to like or dislike. Kaiva thinks a good player is one who beats the hardest content in the game. Others think a good player is mechanically proficient and doesn't waste other people's time. Others think that a good player is kind, and easy to get along with. All it does is says something about the person who defines it.

Just play the game and have fun.

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.....If there's no point, then what was the point of your post besides making snide and subtle rebukes about everyone posting in the thread? The whole point of this thread was to get different perspectives of what a collective and broad range of people define what a good player is in their eyes and to see if others may or may not agree with them. That was the point.

We're not a hive mind, we're not all going to have the same opinions about what defines a good player so, of course, it's what one individual happens to like or dislike over the next person. I don't know what else you'd be expecting from a thread like this unfortunately.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

There's no point. Everyone is just saying what they happen to like or dislike. Kaiva thinks a good player is one who beats the hardest content in the game. Others think a good player is mechanically proficient and doesn't waste other people's time. Others think that a good player is kind, and easy to get along with. All it does is says something about the person who defines it.

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And Riyah thinks a good player is someone who can't answer the question in the thread but feels compelled to complain about it instead.

There's no point because ultimately caring about good or bad in this sense is letting other people define your own conduct by what other people like. I think Kaiva themself suffered from that when they fell into the trap of believing a good player has a high parse on savage content. People tend to care about good or bad because they want people to externally validate what they do, but it's never enough; if you get good at casual content, someone will look down on you for not doing savage. if someone clears savage they won't think you are good unless you can farm it. If you farm it, then people will think you aren't good if you have a low parse. If you do PvP, there's a whole ranking system you can use to look down on people or look up to them, from bronze wolf to top 100.

If you allow others to set these standards you're always going to fail them, but setting "good and bad" standards isn't as much for yourself as you think, it's because you want people to say "oh, he's such a great player!" or don't want them to say "oh, he's bad!" You shift the aspect of playing a game a bit to fulfilling other players ideas of how you should play a game, and that's a bad aspect of gamer culture. Good or bad is dumb, it's whether or not you have fun or enjoy the game. You can be good by someone's standards, and hate every second of it, or be bad and have a great time.

So much of this is just players desire to control and erect status monuments. It's not enough to play a game and have fun in it (especially in one as forgiving in casual content as this), you have to win worship by satisfying whatever crowd you aspire to's conditions of being a good player. Kaiva would just have a lot more fun if they didn't worry about what others said; if mastery of a game is fun, you don't need other players to tell you how good you are; the journey itself is fun. But all of this said here is just how fragmented that idea is; some people will think you bad if you are patient with bad players, some people think you are good if you mentor them, some people think being nice is better than being skilled, some people think its better to be mean if it spurs people to git gud...what's the point of asking? Everyone will ask you to be all things at all times.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

Just play the game and have fun.

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Arguably, this is actually a miraculous feat in and of it's own as the developers have gone out of their way to suck the fun out of as many things as humanly possible this expansion.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

There's no point because ultimately caring about good or bad in this sense is letting other people define your own conduct by what other people like. I think Kaiva themself suffered from that when they fell into the trap of believing a good player has a high parse on savage content. People tend to care about good or bad because they want people to externally validate what they do, but it's never enough; if you get good at casual content, someone will look down on you for not doing savage. if someone clears savage they won't think you are good unless you can farm it. If you farm it, then people will think you aren't good if you have a low parse.

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...And what's wrong with Kaiva's viewpoint? What is it with you and this "hate boner" you have for people who do Savage content...? Like seriously, any time it's brought up, you're on a warpath with it lately I've noticed.

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Good or bad is dumb, it's whether or not you have fun or enjoy the game. You can be good by someone's standards, and hate every second of it, or be bad and have a great time.

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I don't know, I don't really enjoy the game that much when I have a bunch of bad players in Weeping City or Rabanastre that consecutively die to the same thing five times in a row and I have to keep Manashifting the healers to raise them on BLM. That's not really fun, in my opinion, just saying. I'm glad though that the other person lying on the floor five times in a row is having a great time, while I'm thinking that I need to play a different game for a few hours or quit the raid entirely. You see how much of a double edge sword that is?

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Originally Posted by Sigma-Astra

...And what's wrong with Kaiva's viewpoint? What is it with you and this "hate boner" you have for people who do Savage content...?

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Nothing I said in that was savage was bad; the point was rather that no matter how you define "good" there's always a higher step defined by other people. I used the progression there to show that even as you fulfill "good" conditions, there's always something people can use to look down on you.

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I don't know, I don't really enjoy the game that much when I have a bunch of bad players in Weeping City or Rabanastre that consecutively die to the same thing five times in a row and I have to keep Manashifting the healers to raise them on BLM.

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Then you can structure the game so you have fun; only play with friends, leave bad runs, vote kick the bad players, etc. Obsessing about them being bad does what?

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Originally Posted by Aniya_Estlihn

Arguably, this is actually a miraculous feat in and of it's own as the developers have gone out of their way to suck the fun out of as many things as humanly possible this expansion.

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Hah, well, yeah it's a bit of a bad time for them right now. Too much repetition doesn't help I guess, and a lot of the good/bad stuff probably happens when there isn't that much to occupy us.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

Nothing I said in that was savage was bad; the point was rather that no matter how you define "good" there's always a higher step defined by other people. I used the progression there to show that even as you fulfill "good" conditions, there's always something people can use to look down on you.

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Well, yes, again, that's the point. Everyone has their own merits and criteria for what they deem acceptable and unacceptable behavior. It's just like the real world in that regard. That's why I don't understand what else you were expecting from this thread, yet still felt the need to post in it and say that there's no point and complain about everyone's idea, not even showing constructive criticism about it because all you've offered on the table is "there's no point" and "just play the game and have fun" which doesn't add anything else to the conversation. It's no different than walking into a job and your potential employer having certain criteria and merits that they expect you to have over the person standing next to you that may display even better quality traits or completely abyssal ones instead. Just because you find that the concepts of a "good player" or "bad player" are dumb doesn't deny their existence or deny others from having certain standards and upholding those standards.

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Then you can structure the game so you have fun; only play with friends, leave bad runs, vote kick the bad players, etc. Obsessing about them being bad does what?

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It's impossible to only play with friends in a 24 man raid unless I have 24 friends all on at the same time from the same server or different servers on my Datacenter to run it with. After queuing for 15 minutes, why should I leave a bad run because a player thinks it's hilarious to stay dying on the floor five times in a row? How can I kick them if it's not a group majority vote? It's not really obsessing about bad players so much as it's just me expecting, you know, other players to be somewhat competent and realize that the orange puddle means death after the fifth time.

You want everyone to just ignore these factors and play the game and have fun, which I guess could be said that they are your standards, however, you're still not going to convince anyone here that we should just casually ignore these things in favor of "just have fun guys". A person can be bad and enjoy the game, great...that doesn't mean I have to enjoy them being bad in order to enjoy my playtime either.

Fun is subjective for everyone.