While I have no intention of letting myself get dragged in to what's happening right now, I'd like to point out Dark Knight in all of this. A good number of the people in this community insisted on thinking that Dark Knight would be a DPS job. The moment DRK got revealed as a Tank instead, a good number of the people felt "spat on" that the job would dare to be anything other than a DPS. In a similar vein, before Red Mage even got announced for this game, I'd hear people say that there would be no way Red Mage would work out in FFXIV's combat system, with them saying things like "It's just a White Mage/Black Mage wannabe"... among other things. Yet, here we are, with RDM in as a DPS unit with a notable Cure spell of its own and has it's own melee 3-step combo, and DRK as a Tank that focuses more on MP management instead of HP management when it comes to attacking targets.
To get to the point I'm trying to make here... if a job like DRK can jump into this game as a Tank instead of a DPS... why not have Dancer as a Healer? Especially considering that the DPS job role department already got all the love thanks to Stormblood. *Waves to RDM and SAM*
This'll be my only post on this matter.
As for the thread itself, I already voted for Dancer as the next healer. Why? Well, not only do I want the next healer to be a physical job, but I want it to be a job that really shakes up the current healer job formula the game has going right now. A healer that fights at melee range to dish out DPS would be a good start. I don't mind the idea of Chemist coming in as a Healer unit too, but I'd rather see Dancer first.
...
5.0 info can't come soon enough. And we're only approaching patch 4.3.
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05-06-2018, 01:38 PMTruebladeNuke
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05-06-2018, 02:26 PMDualgunnerBecause Square has shown they're amply capable of balancing 3 healers and 3 tanks against each other, let alone four :PQuote:
Originally Posted by TruebladeNuke
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05-06-2018, 03:20 PMShurrikhanTo be fair, while the jobs face noticeable niche, situational, or composition-specific imbalances, their composition-ideal power levels are really quite close for an MMO on the average of in-progress runs over a given tier (though less balanced, again, at its start and speedrun ends). The main issues stem from more function- or mechanic-driven imbalances (most noticeably, tank gradual homogeneity and the outcast thereform, unnecessarily awkward mechanics such as LD's or card overlap, and over-reliance on RNG as in the case of cards, none of which can even out over time as well as it can on DPS jobs).Quote:
Originally Posted by Dualgunner
I also don't see adding new jobs as necessarily or even likely a reason to short detailed balancing. While extra development time will be necessary, the addition of a new job may force necessary reconsiderations that can push effective parity over homogeneity, and ultimately reach a better balance for it. -
05-06-2018, 03:25 PMDualgunnerFair enough. Since this is my only MMO I've ever raided seriously, it's easy to not have a biased perspective. Honestly I was expecting a "But the DPS aren't balanced either" type retort before that lol.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
I am glad they didn't make a new tank or healer yet while they're still feeling out how they want to balance their current ones against each other. If, say, SAM was a tank and RDM was a healer, there might be bloodsports right now regarding the optimal tank and healer compositions. -
05-06-2018, 03:37 PMShurrikhanMy experience in this regard mostly comes from just WoW and Rift, but over many iterations of each (e.g. from Vanilla to Legion in WoW's case), wherein surprisingly enough reducing complexity or curtailing roster growth had little to no positive effect on balance.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dualgunner
Rather, moving away from "obligatory" tools that, in their few exceptions, leave outliers that are community-disfavored (regardless of actual theoretical imbalance) in favor of effective parity has tended to provide better effective, even if overall more niche, balance, simultaneous to improving identity. A certain healer may be better for a certain fight, but you tend not to see such large imbalances over tier age (especially since the fall of, say, mana-bottoming builds like Int Paladin), and each can still get through. -
05-07-2018, 06:54 AMGemina
I am going to favor DNC on the potential aesthetics alone. I know many players don't want another dainty, fragile, stereotypical healer. I am on the opposite side of the spectrum. I want an even more ultra feminine, extremely elegant and graceful healer. Like BRDs, they can have a perform action that would have them showing their graceful steps in cities all over the map. I wonder what exactly can a chemist bring to the table other than just being another healer? I would place a very generous wager that if DNC is introduced, they will get some kind of perform action as well.
From a gameplay/mechanics perspective, I still favor DNC. I am only one person of course and innovation is not one of my strengths, but the way I envision chemist being played won't offer much diversity over our current healers. Perhaps it would be better for me to say that I feel like Dancer can bring more to the table when it comes to opening up the healing role to a different playstyle. I think the road is well paved for a healer/melee hybrid. -
05-07-2018, 08:59 AMKabooaHave you ever wanted to aggressively heal someone? To do your job but also let them know you don't -want- to do it at the same time?Quote:
Originally Posted by Gemina
Few things say "I hate that you need to live" like a bottle to the face. -
05-07-2018, 11:26 AMFerth
Chemist, but only if they get to use rifles.
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05-07-2018, 01:23 PMMoroMurasakiI may have voted dancer but this resonates with my soul.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kabooa
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05-07-2018, 09:57 PMAxHellI want an animation where the Chemist throws the bottle at the players.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kabooa
My vote goes to chemist.
One way to make it interesting is buying different ingredients and then mix them to create the bottles you need for your skills via the Alchemist. Heck why not make them gain levels at the same time like SCH and SMN ?
And the skills could consist of buffs (that somehow need to be distinct from AST), resistance to certain status effects to make them less powerful or shorter, debuffs, AOE pools of good and bad stuff, Mighty Guard as the last skill, a LB that heal and grants temporary buffs via a rain of bottles.
Chemist's got a lot of potential and could bring a touch of "modernity" in that game.
As for the weapon, pistol or rifle, so you can shoot bottles mid-air to spray its content or cause explosions -
05-07-2018, 11:19 PMVorlonshadow
Ast lore states that geomancer will most like be the next healer.
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05-08-2018, 01:18 AMTridusLore also states that Geomancer is effectively "White Mage, but Eastern". That's about as interesting as plain toast. Unless they plan on continuing WHM's conversion into "Priest" to make room for all the earthy spells that GEO would need. It'd make more sense as a DPS really, as there would be room for it without being too close to something we already have.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vorlonshadow
Clearly the next healer needs to be Salt Mage, and this guy needs to be the guildmaster. :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Usho
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05-08-2018, 01:25 AMNewAgeDoom
Though I initially stated bias toward Chemist for the obvious TF2 Medic fashion, why not both? We have too few healer and tank classes as is, and we just got 2 DPS classes.
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05-08-2018, 01:42 AMErudito
If we had to choose between one or the other, I would want Chemist for healer. Break the cycle of magical healers, add in something different.
Let dancer join bard as support DPS.
Move Machinist away from support DPS role and have it be the match for ninja; the tricky jobs ideally.
And, finally, a magical tank. Dark Knight tried to incorporate magic but its still a dude or dudette swinging a huge sword that just so happens to be infused with void-like magic. Almost, but no dice. -
05-08-2018, 03:25 AMBrightshadowI 100% agree, and I commented on this in a job concept I made for Dancer. If White Mage wasn't in the game I guarantee that there would be people clamoring for it to be a DPS, not all jobs can be a DPS and the Dancer is a great candidate for our next healer thanks to their evolution in the series. In the newer entries they have gotten more support dances like curing waltz and they have always been a supporter/debuffer in the series. Since BRD is a DPS I see the best logical role for DNC to be a healer because why would you have both entertainers of the series as DPS if we already have one that fulfills that purpose. I also agree that we need the healer formula shaken up and DNC would function great as a melee healer, sure there will be some fights where it's not optimal but they should have the basic toolkit to fulfill the job. And chemist is also a logical choice for a future healer but they wouldn't shake up the forumla like a DNC would so 100% DNC should be next, then perhaps it should be either CHM or GEO, heck or a original healer but we already got one in heavenward.Quote:
Originally Posted by TruebladeNuke
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05-11-2018, 06:50 AMSylvain
Chemist hands down
For a few reasons.
First, the game is a bit too centric around dps, Y.P knows it and doesn't especially enjoy seeing healer talking about dps non stops. I mean, I can't recall a single other game designer having to remind players that healers first and foremost role is to heal and that raids are not balanced around their dps contribution. Therefor, adding the dancer (in the classical sense most people see it, as a healer who heal by dpsing) sounds counter productive.
I also see quite a few issues with the job itself, if the job needs to dps to heal, then it would either do extremely low dmg while healing and no heal while damaging OR doing rather low of both. But anyone expecting the job to heal by doing good dps clearly isn't aware of where Y.P stands on the matter.
Second problem is during transition. FF14 bosses have A LOT of transition and moments where you just can't hit anything (and these are usually the hard moment of a fight), if the Dancer can't use some of its skill during transition, then it becomes a liability and would underperform compaired to other healers. Ultimately, it could bring all the dps we want, if it becomes too innefective by missing skill during transition, movement or whenever they can't be in melee then people wouldn't play it. A dead party does 0 dps
Regarding the Chemist, I think there's a lot of room for very interesting and original mechanics.
I mean, they could virtually do anything. (For some reason I'm thinking about Decard Cain potion mechanic in HotS right now)
They could mix stuff (a bit like mudras), well, plenty of things could be done and I'm sure they could be much more creative than with the Dancer. -
05-11-2018, 06:55 AMKabooa
You can have heals that aren't based on dealing damage, you know.
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05-11-2018, 01:18 PMMoroMurasakiI don't see how - if 1/4 healers can't deal appreciable damage it will be left out of any endgame content.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kabooa
If I'm misunderstanding this please let me know, just don't see how else to take it. -
05-11-2018, 01:38 PMShurrikhanEDIT: My mistake; I wasn't aware that the post I quoted above was meant purely towards the ideas for a Dancer toolkit: e.g. Dancers don't have to heal ONLY through hitting enemies.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kabooa
Please dismiss the rest, as it assume that "heals" referred to "healers", not the actual actions.
Ignoring the obvious hyperbole of being "based" on damage, rather than being allowed consistent usefulness by having access to decently significant damage skills to weave in, and substituting it with that reality...
You can't. Not really. Not if the fight is won through damage dealt -- as every XIV encounter is, by XIV's own raid design choices -- and their throughput is capped (e.g. because of limited damage taken by the tanks or raid) to the effect of forcing considerable downtime. It's not just non-competitive; it's also likely to spend far more often being dull for no reason other than to drive a principle in a ill-fitting damage-intake environment.
While I'd agree with you on a technical level if you're referring purely to direct damage-dealing, I'd probably avoid such a healer like the plague even if it were meta unless it could provide similarly accessible uncapped actions to weave in between or among core healing actions and a decision point at/by which you could potentially save a raid better by applying a finishing blow to an enemy rather than healing through one last AoE just before the key mob dies. I don't like being without things to do, and I enjoy having a visible, appreciable impact from my uptime. And I despise idle time, with only the very minor exception -- and stretched thin at that -- of where resource costs make that delay feel like an active decision, made sparsely but importantly.
Sure, I wouldn't mind spending a free GCD accelerating, moving, or empowering allies rather than throwing stones (though less so if said stones then empowered my shields, which in turn refunded greater mana, which in turn leaves me with stronger blanket AoEs, which in turn deposits more latent energy usable for my AoE attacks, which in turn offer greater caster speeds for a brief time and count, etc., etc.). But I'm not remotely okay with being limited to healing as my only source of contribution when that leaves so much downtime. And I don't much want a raid environment that forces spam healing, either, or really would make full use of maximally GCD-efficient (or even mana-efficient) heals for the entirety of a fight. -
05-11-2018, 05:49 PMExiled_Tonberry
All I have to say is, making a DPS heavy healer in the game can't work so long as WHM has no raid utility outside of high personal DPS. If Dancer was made to be a healer that heal as they attack, it's going to kill WHM as there's nothing else they can bring to a raid.
I know this is perhaps killing the hype, but we need to take things like this into consideration.
WHMs identity is high numbers both healing and DPS wise, and that's already shaky at best because SCH does more DPS than them in long fights. -
05-11-2018, 09:56 PMBrightshadowNot necessarily true, A DPS healer wouldn't kill WHM because this has already existed in the game in another format with SCH. Sure SCH doesn't have DPS skills that also heal, but they can DPS while eos provides a ~150 potency heal so essentially its the same thing DNC would do, they would just have more tools to recover while DPSing. In theory DNC will have similar healing/damage output to a SCH without the barrier aspect and perhaps a pro being a tad bit higher DPS, so they shouldn't replace a WHM on progression since WHM will be far superior at raw healing, and they will always be at risk because they will be meleeing; something WHM doesn't even need to think about.Quote:
Originally Posted by Exiled_Tonberry
However, that doesn't mean WHM doesn't need any utility, I agree that they need utility. Perhaps give them defensive utility such as making protect unique to them again by giving them the PVP version for physical damage, and shell for magic damage. Then they could add other defensive utility such as Blink which would increase the target evasion, and reflect/reprisal which would redirect a portion of the damage received. You get the idea basically defensive style utility. -
05-12-2018, 12:10 AMLeidirivI believe the person you were responding to was referring to individual healing skills not being based on dealing damage, rather than a healer class that didn't do damage.Quote:
Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki
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05-12-2018, 01:03 AMTruebladeNukeThis was my thought as well. I think the post was in response to the previous one in which that said poster explained why his view on Dancer being a "DPS to heal" healer would be very bad if that was how Dancer's entire healer toolkit functioned. However, I'm certain the developers would have the foresight to remember the boss transition phases, and would make sure Dancers have the absolute basics at least for general healing (a direct heal, a simple AoE heal, etc) along with their own good emergency heal.Quote:
Originally Posted by Leidiriv
However, I wouldn't mind Dancer taking a few notes about "Healing by dishing out DPS" and have a small handful of said abilites in their toolkit. One of their ability buffs could be that they place a "spell" (tee hee) on a target party member, and for as long as the duration of that buff lasts on the said party member, said party member recovers HP for the amount of damage the Dancer dishes out.
It'd make Dancer have its own thing from the other healers at least, aside from simply being that new healer job that does melee physical DPS. -
05-12-2018, 02:12 AMKabooaThe guy said "You can't heal people if there's nothing to hit."Quote:
Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki
I said the above. -
05-14-2018, 09:42 PMMaero
If it is between these 2 i would like Dancer. Some people are on a bandwagon lately for Geo for some reason.
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05-17-2018, 06:18 AMinhaledcorn
I think Dancer would act better as a melee dps with a rotating stance like Bard. I'd rather have a Chemist as a healer.
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05-17-2018, 12:11 PMgumas
dancer obviously because iam more interested how they going to make dancer skill instead of chemist.
also... that glamour and fashion department is definitely siding with dancer =P -
05-17-2018, 03:56 PMEloah
My vote is for Chemist, if for no other reason that I LOVED Salve-maker in Bravely Default. Sadly it was one of the jobs to get the chopping block in Bravely Second. Probably cause the guy was dead at the end... umm.. spoilers?
News flash Aerith dies, lol -
05-17-2018, 09:56 PMDuskane
i think Dancer would be a nice idea
maybe a part of its core Healing mechanic would be combos but not like DPS combos more along the lines of Ninjas Mudras but not as laggy "dance moves" have different effects etc etc
Chemist would be cool too -
05-17-2018, 10:15 PMTanamaI agree. I think this would be a lot better.Quote:
Originally Posted by inhaledcorn
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05-18-2018, 12:34 AMAeroliteInstead of another DPS with the same mechanics are Bard, what if we imagine a healer with rotating stances? This would give Dancer plenty of opportunities to differentiate itself from Bard while still utilizing an interesting gameplay mechanic(which would also happen to fit within the job theme).Quote:
Originally Posted by inhaledcorn
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05-18-2018, 07:55 AMDeias404Chemist please
I'm all for the chemist as our new healing brother/sister. It's time to break the monopoly of magic based healers. I can see dancers as our first evasion (in lore pure evasion would rather fall flat due to rng or break them as the could dodge 100% of an incoming attack.) tank. Spinning and slashing their way out of danger
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05-21-2018, 05:24 AMLinx0rCombine them both - ChancerQuote:
Originally Posted by Brightshadow