New Loot System for Raids from 4.3 on

I personally like the idea of being able to go as my main job instead of having to play as an alt job which I need the gear for.

In the past, I often did the runs as my main job anyway, and just hoped to win a Greed roll for an item for one of my alt jobs, so I have no complaint about this proprosed new system, except possibly the fact that I won't have guaranteed loot (provided the item drops) for my tanks, despite having the longest queue time for 24-man, triple-tank raids; though, that's just a minor issue compared to the advantage of being able to play as my main job.

Besides, I would prefer that my teammates bring their main jobs, which they are best at, as well; it improves the experience for everyone involved. Though, of course, if they wish to bring an alt job to practise that job, that's perfectly fine, but that's a different situation from bringing an alt job solely to be able to roll Need on the gear for that job.

The only problem that I have with this change is: (I feel like) tank gear drop rate is so low. Since tanks can't roll need anymore it will be so much pain just to get a piece of gear.

Is that the case?, I mean the drop rate. Does anyone has any numbers? Or it's just my feeling

I probably won't run the 24 man more than once a week now and greed on every drop just to increase my chance of actually getting lot. There is not really not that much of an incentive anymore to do multiple runs, when I could just go Eureka and get exactly what gear I want. It was already hard enough to get specific gear before due to rng and party composition. This change will make it harder when you have to compete against 7 people on top of rng for every drop. Everyone's odds just increased to 1/8 chance for a drop compared to the max of 1/4, if all dps were the same class.

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Originally Posted by RukiaFae

I probably won't run the 24 man more than once a week now and greed on every drop just to increase my chance of actually getting lot. There is not really not that much of an incentive anymore to do multiple runs, when I could just go Eureka and get exactly what gear I want. It was already hard enough to get specific gear before due to rng and party composition. This change will make it harder when you have to compete against 7 people on top of rng for every drop. Everyone's odds just increased to 1/8 chance for a drop compared to the max of 1/4, if all dps were the same class.

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I dont know why this bugs me as much as it does. You arent considering that the new 24 man will have a weekly loot lockout. Dont just roll greed for everything that drops if you cant use it(not only does it block you from maybe getting something you could use, you also wont be able to turn them in for seals for at least 2 patches so theyll literally just be in the way). You wont be competing with 7 other people for every drop. If nothing else, then whichever two people win the loot from the first boss wont be able to roll on the stuff from the 2nd or later bosses. Also, the 1-2-5 format allowed for 5 DPS in a party to share a set of gear and potentially have to compete with each other(and ive been DF'd into 5 caster parties before so it isnt unheard of) - so not just 4.

Most of the gear looks like crap, so enjoy competing with everyone ever for the melee DPS sets as it's literally the only one to not look right terrible.

Also the change affects all alliance raids, so good luck trying to get that sick glam from Weeping City or wherever.

I'm personally happy, I'll be able to go with wathever the job I feel like playing / is needed and still get to roll on the gear I want.

I mean, beside tank, no one had any exclusivity. As a healer I always had one person fighting for it, as a BLM it would range from no competition to 3 other people to roll against. I really don't see how the new system will change that.

The only difference is that you won't know who "wants" the same item as you do.

But technically, it is the same, you could end up in a group with no one wanting your piece of gear (so you'll get it if it drops) or you might as well have 7 people wanting your item.

But the odds are that youll most likely always fight against 1 or 2 person.

Anyway, I prefer this system over the current one. Perhaps well see less people who can't play their job with this change

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Originally Posted by Sylvain

Perhaps well see less people who can't play their job with this change

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I remember when I was optimistic.

This is why I said perhaps xD

Well, for new raid is not so bad because there is a weekly lockout to help. However, for the older raid.... everyone just greed the hell out of every piece for some extra GC seal (me included). So goodluck getting gear for glamoure.

Currently on old raids i greed every piece, this is true(even those for my class - the raids have all been around long enough that ive gathered any glamours i personally care for). But if someone asks for something, i gladly pass. And i know if i really want something i can run with friends who would be willing to pass something to me. I may not be able to fill a whole alliance to force a wind-up scattach, but i could certainly cobble a group together for the Good Looking Shoes of Coolness if i felt the need.

@Alberos
Perhaps being able to only need one item per run for older raid would be a good middle ground

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Originally Posted by Sylvain

@Alberos
Perhaps being able to only need one item per run for older raid would be a good middle ground

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Or do something the same as non-end-patch dungeon (not x0) where we get 1 piece of gear for our current class after finished the raid. But I imagine that is a bit too much and soon enough there will be no verteran player queue the rou raid anymore. Or maybe I just worried too much.

I think it is an ungodly stupid idea to make Alliance Raid Greed Only, like seriously, if I am playing as a say a Healer, and the boss drops a Healer Hat or some other thing that us Healers use, it should automatically be a Need Only for the two healers in the party unless both of us have it, then it should automatically be set to Greed and be allowed for the other six party members to fight for it with their rolls. No one should have to fight for loot that goes with their class unless there is someone else of the same class type that uses the same gear, SE should have known to not do this because that is just poor planning right there. Do they want their players to riot?

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Originally Posted by Tavira

No one should have to fight for loot that goes with their class unless there is someone else of the same class type that uses the same gear, SE should have known to not do this because that is just poor planning right there. Do they want their players to riot?

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It's not poor planning. It's just to make the loot chance fair for everyone.
You can only get one loot from the alliance raid per week, which deters others from lotting for a gear piece they can't use.

You also have other places to get the gear pieces to upgrade your gear for your primary class, such as dungeons which can be done with 4 people with relative ease.
And if all else fails u still gets the Allagan Tomestones which u can trade for the missing gear pieces.
If you still have any complaints about this, that problem is yours and yours alone, and frankly, this is a damned silly reason to unsubscribe.

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Originally Posted by LostLogia4

It's not poor planning. It's just to make the loot chance fair for everyone.
You can only get one loot from the alliance raid per week, which deters others from lotting for a gear piece they can't use.

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Nothing fair about it when gear there's an imbalance how many jobs can use each gear set. If you assume people only roll on stuff they have at 70, people will less likely role on something for the NIN or DRG. NIN gear is only for NIN. DRG gear is only for DRG. Only someone with with a level 70 in those jobs would roll on that gear.


But if caster, healer or tank gear drops, odds are higher more people have a job that can use it. Each of these gear sets can be used by 3 jobs. If caster gear drops, then people with lvl 70 RDM, SMN or BLM will potentially roll on it.

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Originally Posted by LostLogia4

It's not poor planning. It's just to make the loot chance fair for everyone.

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Or people could run on the job that they want loot on.

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Originally Posted by LostLogia4

You also have other places to get the gear pieces to upgrade your gear for your primary class, such as dungeons which can be done with 4 people with relative ease.

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Dungeon gear isn't all that great, and usually lower ilvl than the uncapped tomestone gear.

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Originally Posted by LostLogia4

And if all else fails u still gets the Allagan Tomestones which u can trade for the missing gear pieces.

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Capped tomestones can only get you so much per week, with the next thing to do in gearing would be getting an alliance raid piece, as that gear is still higher than the uncapped tomestone gear.

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Originally Posted by LostLogia4

If you still have any complaints about this, that problem is yours and yours alone, and frankly, this is a damned silly reason to unsubscribe.

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I don't think people are quitting over it, but I could see it being the last straw for some.

I feel that that this might make the queue times even worse because there's no reason to join the queue as anything but your main anymore. At least in the past, there was an incentive to join as one of the other roles such as tank or healer because you wanted gear from that. This raid is going to need day 1 page items.

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Originally Posted by Nezerius

Dungeon gear isn't all that great, and usually lower ilvl than the uncapped tomestone gear.


Capped tomestones can only get you so much per week, with the next thing to do in gearing would be getting an alliance raid piece, as that gear is still higher than the uncapped tomestone gear.

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Still works for a stopgap nevertheless. And getting the alliance raid piece is still a stopgap as well because you can only get one per week. Generally, you shouldn't worry about the BiS very much compared to the minimum iLvl for everything short of the latest savage raid.

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Originally Posted by Blanchimont

I feel that that this might make the queue times even worse because there's no reason to join the queue as anything but your main anymore.

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Queue times are already bad for The Weeping City of Mhach and beyond, partly because some players goes there as low-level alt job to level them faster. It also helps that a single alliance raid party can hold 15 DPS roles.

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Originally Posted by LostLogia4

Still works for a stopgap nevertheless. And getting the alliance raid piece is still a stopgap as well because you can only get one per week.

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That still means that dungeon gear is barely relevant, when you can (currently) get better gear with the uncapped tomestones, with the next expert dungeon likely dropping i335 gear (5 ilvls higher than the unaugmented creation gear).

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Originally Posted by LostLogia4

Generally, you shouldn't worry about the BiS very much compared to the minimum iLvl for everything short of the latest savage raid.

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Never mentioned anything about BiS, so I'm not sure where you're getting that from. While getting gear upgrades isn't needed unless one is still progressing in the latest savage raid, part of the playerbase still finds it fun to get an item upgrade.

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Originally Posted by Nezerius

Or people could run on the job that they want loot on.

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Which isn't perfect either.
If you play as a tank you have exclusive rights to anything you want.
If you play as healer you always have 50/50 chance of getting it.
If you dps, it's entirely pot luck, you could be rolling against four other people.

Given the weekly lock out, chances are people will only roll on the gear of the class they're currently running. Unless they're unable to play that class due to queue times or party set up.
In that case, why should those people be penalised for adjusting to fit their party?

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Originally Posted by Blanchimont

I feel that that this might make the queue times even worse because there's no reason to join the queue as anything but your main anymore. At least in the past, there was an incentive to join as one of the other roles such as tank or healer because you wanted gear from that. This raid is going to need day 1 page items.

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Now the incentive will be to join as the class that will get the shortest queue, rather than the class you're trying to gear.
So queues should go down.

Thankfully someone found out that they said "if it's unpopular we'll change it back."

General consensus outside of Japan is it's a horrible idea, but considering this is essentially how the Japanese do alliance raids, well...

This broke so many things that were fixed so long ago
It’s simple if you want the gear for that class you PLAY THAT CLASS

If I queue for the raid as a tank with the intention of supplementing my iLvl with the gear I'll get, then what is the point of going there if I'm going to lose my gear to some RDM? The tank gear was the only reason I queued as a tank! To hell with it, might as well just spam dps like everyone else and steal gear from other classes. No point in playing a role other people don't want to play as if there is no reward for doing so.

Went yesterday and the 24 man is an aoe nightmare. Grabbed a pair of heal gloves for my WHM that were no better than what she had really so won't go in there again.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

Which isn't perfect either.
If you play as a tank you have exclusive rights to anything you want.
If you play as healer you always have 50/50 chance of getting it.
If you dps, it's entirely pot luck, you could be rolling against four other people.

Given the weekly lock out, chances are people will only roll on the gear of the class they're currently running. Unless they're unable to play that class due to queue times or party set up.
In that case, why should those people be penalised for adjusting to fit their party?

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People are already penalized by not having drops that match their class, forcing them to run the raid multiple times as it is. You're now doubling up on that punishment by making them unable to acquire gear for the specific class that they are playing. You are penalizing people who are trying to gear up a class by playing as that class.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

Now the incentive will be to join as the class that will get the shortest queue, rather than the class you're trying to gear.
So queues should go down.

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That was supposed to be the idea behind the Adventurer in Need for Daily Roulettes as well, but not all of that has worked out. The same is happening to the raids.

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Originally Posted by Blanchimont

People are already penalized by not having drops that match their class, forcing them to run the raid multiple times as it is. You're now doubling up on that punishment by making them unable to acquire gear for the specific class that they are playing. You are penalizing people who are trying to gear up a class by playing as that class.

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You don't seem to understand what "penalise" means.
It's not the same as "not having an additional privilege."

You can still run as the class you're trying to gear and gave exactly the same chances as everyone else.

Also, to reiterate another point.
7 others players you're rolling against, all restricted to gearing one thing at a time due to the lock out.
7 different gear sets, of which each person is only after one of.
Statistically you'll only ever be rolling against 1 other person. Maybe 2, may be none!

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

You don't seem to understand what "penalise" means.
It's not the same as "not having an additional privilege."

You can still run as the class you're trying to gear and gave exactly the same chances as everyone else.

Also, to reiterate another point.
7 others players you're rolling against, all restricted to gearing one thing at a time due to the lock out.
7 different gear sets, of which each person is only after one of.
Statistically you'll only ever be rolling against 1 other person. Maybe 2, may be none!

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The "additional privilege" was taken away from them. This makes it a negative punishment because it was something that was something that was desired was taken away. Under this patch, everyone was punished.

Statistically, you are also rolling against at least seven other players at any given time in the new system (passing forces a 0) instead of only rolling against yourself (tank), one other person (healer), or any number that share class with you (DPS potentially up to 4) under the old system. You are assuming people are only rolling for the item for the class that they are maining, which might be true in theory, but is not happening in the raid. Many people are rolling for multiple items, not just the class that they are playing at a given moment.

Er... if someone passes, and rolls a 0, then they're not competition...

If people are rolling for anything and everything, then they're going to lock themselves out of the weekly loot and possibly get stuck with something they can't even use.
They then remove themselves from the competition.

Lockout existed under the previous system where there was no backlash. That argument is weak, stop using it.

There's already many claims of people running it and losing out on gear to people who don't have the job leveled or even unlocked, so there goes the whole "You'll only be rolling against one maybe two people," because you're rolling against seven.

Even on the Japanese forums where people myself included said is where the idea for this system came from are baffled by it.

The purpose of a catch up patch is to help people catch up and one viable way of catching up was with 24-man raids which is now no longer viable.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

Er... if someone passes, and rolls a 0, then they're not competition...

If people are rolling for anything and everything, then they're going to lock themselves out of the weekly loot and possibly get stuck with something they can't even use.
They then remove themselves from the competition.

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A pass is still a roll of 0. As long as they have not claimed an item for the week, you are still rolling against them because "Greed" is essentially a roll of up to 99 whereas "Need" is a roll of 100-198. Need is what limits your competition as your class determines who you are rolling against.

It's not bad, but not good either. If anything people been playing a bit more geared on the alliance now.

I think the issue is bigger than how the loot is rolled. How the loot tables are spread and how many items we drop per boss is what causes issues on both old and new systems.

Adding my complaint to the pile.

I had held out hope that this would be specifically tied to using the Alliance Roulette. In that context it makes sense, if you queue in for an Alliance Roulette you're probably not there for the gear.

As is, this feels like someone who has never actually dealt with loot distribution decided Greed only was a good idea.

This system is bad, it encourages people to not play the jobs they want gear for.

I would like to have the tanking set, but because the queues are far longer for tanks there is little reason I should queue as a tank. Preferably, I don't steal loot from somebody else, but this system sets me up for disappointment and frustration if I work against it.

I considered asking at the start if anybody will be rolling against me. If someone was then I would leave the party and accept my 30 minute penalty (instead of 45+ minutes). However, this is letting others take advantage of the system and my time.

So I will be queuing as a DPS and stealing other peoples loot. When an unlucky individual gets upset, I will direct them here to complain.

:(

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

7 different gear sets, of which each person is only after one of.
Statistically you'll only ever be rolling against 1 other person. Maybe 2, may be none!

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This assumption is incorrect, and it's where the premise of your argument falls apart. People aren't necessarily after only one set. Reality has already shown this to be the case in Lighthouse.

For example, there are pieces from 3 different sets that I'm interested in loot from. Some for upgrades, some for glamour. Since none of them are for my main (tank), I don't really care what order I get them in either. So given the now worse chances of winning loot, on top of the rng of the pieces I want appearing in the first place, I'll roll on any of those pieces whenever I see them. The weekly lockout does not discourage this - in fact, it encourages it, since there's a chance that if I hold out, I'll end up not seeing/winning any of the pieces I want this week.

I fail to see how this could have been seen as a good idea. Just ran through the Rabanastre on my samurai and lost out to boots that would have been an upgrade for me(just hit 70 the other night and kinda scrambling for better gear) and myself as well as the other sam in the party lost on the roll to a caster.

I feel the idea is horribly flawed, the old system worked just fine for ARR/HW. Yeah people may have had trouble getting gear for other classes but either they suck it up and hope rng works out in their favor or they hope the rest of their group is feeling generous. From what I've seen in the past most groups are pretty cool about it if the person asks early enough in advance.

This is even worse for those people that have several characters and don't put as much work into gearing those alts.

Please undo this change asap.

I'm not sure what the rationalization was in making this change to the 24-man alliance raids. General understanding was that these raids are intended to help catch players up, and forcing everyone to roll against everyone else when someone may legitimately need this or that piece of gear makes little sense.

Please revert this change ASAP. There are a host of ways to help afford players the opportunity to obtain the gear pieces they need from these raids, but requiring direct competition against the entire rest of your party isn't one of them.

This whole thing spawning from the Japanese players really puts into perspective how much the devs communicate with players because if they did they would have been met with mass negative responses and this would be avoided but since they didn't this also puts into perspective how much the devs only care about the Japanese opinion then Western/European opinions.