Just say no

The best way for the West to react is to simply use the app but not the premium service. Speak with your wallets.

Because the forum can say one thing. But the $$$$ from people buying premium can make the forum argument null and void if enough people buy

If people pay because they feel they have to then in my opinion they are foolish. If they are so against it that they quit then that's their choice to make. I don't believe the losses are going to outweigh the gains on a thing like this.
Should you have to pay 5 bucks? Yes, because the company that made it decided it was so. Do you HAVE to pay 5 bucks? Definitely not. What you consider a right they've decided is a paid priviledge. That's their decision to make, how you respond is yours.
If you think EA for an instant learned some moral lesson about lockboxes because of an uproar you're silly in the head. They're still present, they just hid them better.
I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm not saying I'm right. I am saying you can tantrum and scream or high ground it until you're blue in the face. I wager it changes nothing and more than enough people are going to buy what's offered and keep doing so in the future.

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Originally Posted by Gurpsmeister

I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm not saying I'm right. I am saying you can tantrum and scream or high ground it until you're blue in the face. I wager it changes nothing and more than enough people are going to buy what's offered and keep doing so in the future.

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Quite possible. This is why the peer pressure component is so essential. Don't let people feel comfortable making decisions that wrongly incentivize SE. Don't stay silent in your Linkshells, in your FC. When people speak about having a bunch of optional Retainers, or a new item from the Mog Station, or about some feature of the paid phone service, speak up. Point out how harmful their spending habits are to the long-term health of FFXIV (and, indeed, most games everywhere). This type of shit is ruining a large swath of gaming. Make sure people realize it.

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Originally Posted by Vhailor

Quite possible. This is why the peer pressure component is so essential. Don't let people feel comfortable making decisions that wrongly incentivize SE. Don't stay silent in your Linkshells, in your FC. When people speak about having a bunch of optional Retainers, or a new item from the Mog Station, or about some feature of the paid phone service, speak up. Point out how harmful their spending habits are to the long-term health of FFXIV (and, indeed, most games everywhere). This type of shit is ruining a large swath of gaming. Make sure people realize it.

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You say ruin.
I say adds choice.
Market trends speak louder than forum complaints. On this you are correct, i just feel that far more people are going to spend than complain. Like you said, most gaming is doing this. I'm okay with it, so are most gamers speaking strictly from a spending pattern perspective.
The voices on this forum are but a whisper compared to the roar of the dollar.

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Originally Posted by Gurpsmeister

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So let's say Square Enix charged £10m per hour to access the game. Each retainer cost £5m per hour to have (no free ones). Duties are locked at a cost of £1m per duty attempt. Savage Raids/Extreme primals cost £500m per attempt (a wipe counts as an attempt). Expansions cost £1b per expansion. For every item you gather or craft, or obtain in any way, you pay a fee of £5m per item (this includes shards/crystals/clusters too. For example receiving 20 fire shards would cost you £100m). Housing you had to pay an upkeep fee of £20b a day. Each glamour plate cost £1m. Each slot in the armoire/glamour dressers cost £2.5k. (btw, this is all real money I'm talking here, not in-game currency). Would that still be fun to you? Where do you draw the line?

And yes, this is deliberately exaggerated to try and drill the point home. If you think Square Enix are gonna stop at what they've done so far, they won't. They're gonna keep pushing further and further until enough of a stink is created and they figure out where they draw the line. Notice how they do it all bit by bit too? This is intentional so as to kick up less of a stink so they can get away with more. Because most people don't notice the small changes, but they add up.

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Originally Posted by Paladinleeds

And yes, this is deliberately exaggerated to try and drill the point home. If you think Square Enix are gonna stop at what they've done so far, they won't. They're gonna keep pushing further and further until enough of a stink is created and they figure out where they draw the line. Notice how they do it all bit by bit too? This is intentional so as to kick up less of a stink so they can get away with more. Because most people don't notice the small changes, but they add up.

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As you said your examples are ridiculous in an attempt to weigh the argument in your favor. Are there lines, clearly. They are determined by what will and will not sell. Righteous indignation isn't likely to play into it much.

hm, i don't even own a phone... o.ô

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Originally Posted by Gurpsmeister

It seems the rest don't care or support the idea.

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Or they just simply don't know about it.

There's no official translation yet and by the time we finally get one and SE actually add it to the Lodestone/launcher so people see it they'll probably just be like: "Oh well it's too close to release now so we're going to go ahead anyway".

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Originally Posted by worldofneil

Or they just simply don't know about it.

There's no official translation yet and by the time we finally get one, even if more people kick up a fuss then SE will be like "Oh well it's too close to release now so we're going to go ahead anyway".

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I'd bundle them in with the don't care lot. Also i highly doubt that's how SE or any major business at all thinks. Ever.

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Originally Posted by Gurpsmeister

You say ruin.
I say adds choice.

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It's hard to say anything is 'added' by this when the functionality present in modern monetization schemes was present for free in titles made a decade ago. You can perhaps make this argument around the mobile app specifically, but Retainers? The Mog Station? Clearly there is no 'choice' being added here: there's simply money being charged for stuff that used to be included as part of the subscription. Supporting said efforts is, by definition, worsening the quality of gaming - because it convinces companies less needs to be included out of the box.

Now, don't get me wrong, if SE was lowering the cost of a subscription (or eliminating it altogether) and offering F2P-style cash shop offerings in order to offset revenue losses, that's fine. That's choice. They aren't doing that, though - they're charging as much as anyone, while also layering an obscene amount of optional subscription-based costs on top of it. That's gouging, and being happy to pay price-gouge rates really diminishes the enjoyment of everyone else, people who either can't, or won't, spend similarly.

Your whole 'free markets' argument is fine. I find no faults with that. Just don't throw around this 'more choice' bullshit. This is SE seeking to generate additional revenue from features commonly provided (for free) throughout the industry. They aren't exactly inventing anything that adds value unseen in other comparable titles.

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Originally Posted by Gurpsmeister

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There was so much backlash against EA not because of the lootboxes per se but rather the nonchalant attitude on the AMA and lack of answering the main question. Now it won't change the company as a whole but it sure as hell was a big enough issue that they did a 180 and removed lootboxes, made it easier to get the characters unlocked. In some cases SE has listened albeit rarely and only half assed it (Male bunny outfit). Better to try and make a fuss over something in the hopes they might actually listen at least to some degree.

I won’t be using the app. It’s just too far. I agree, don’t use it. Vote with your wallet and make this fail.

I admire your intent, but it won't work. We all said it over fantasias, we all said it when Sleipnir was ripped out of Urth's Fount so they could shove it in the cash shop, we said it over retainers. If everyone stuck together we could push back, but they won't. People who have the expendable income to waste on this stuff can and will, like always. We hurtled down this slippery slope a long time ago unfortunately.

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Originally Posted by Gurpsmeister

I'd bundle them in with the don't care lot. Also i highly doubt that's how SE or any major business at all thinks. Ever.

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Companies frequently take no feedback as complacency. Things are okay- no need to change course. People are generally very vocal when they hate something and you get more buzz and attention when you do something well. So yes the person you replied to is probably right... with SE talking to and accepting our feedback less than ever, I don't think a lot of people are aware that this is coming and how they're going to monetize it. The real test will be when it's released and people see what they wasted their sub money on... I hope SE gets blasted into orbit with the negative feedback.

I can afford everything I want in the Mog Shop, I can spend $5 a month for this app, I can even buy the optional currency without any risk. But these profit methods are over the line of what I'm willing to tolerate.

- they are "optional", they don't pressure you to buy them at all even though they worked so hard on them! It all goes right back into the game guaranteed! Please support the game! Is my monthly subscription and buying the expansions on launch at full price not enough? Do you need to raise subscription costs or stop siphoning money into other projects?
- mobile apps in general strike a very fine line between tantalizing users and annoying them into paying. That is exactly what SE's app aims to do- show the potential, give people a taste, and gouge them when they want to go past the ultra low artificial limits. This is designed so companies can put in the absolute minimum effort and reap a huge amount of profit by preying on human impatience and need for gratification.
- people are okay with it now since it's just the market board and only affects things that the vast majority of people don't care about. But SE has mentioned that they want to expand the uses of the premium currency once we settle down and get used to it. What will they charge for next? I don't want to find out. I want this to die ASAP.

What blows my mind is that people are okay with being exploited like this. The rise of gachas, loot boxes, DLC packs, and micro transactions are quite literally killing my enjoyment in games and sadly XIV is no exception. Don't be a whale. Be a savvy player who knows what their time and money are worth.

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Originally Posted by Mikki

However, after talking to my boyfriend (Japanese), I'm disheartened to hear... the Japanese community is mostly POSITIVE about the announcement. 75% of people polled said they would be happy to pay for the app and some even said they would pay MORE. When I expressed my concerns to my bf, he told me that the player base they target in Japan is mostly adults with a steady income, where this is their only form of entertainment and so they have no issues to pay for it and have the traditional mindset of Japanese people where paying more = quality.

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Saying that I'm not surprised about this would be an understatement, the whole cheering from the crowd was really a stab in the heart

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Originally Posted by Hestzhyen

What blows my mind is that people are okay with being exploited like this. The rise of gachas, loot boxes, DLC packs, and micro transactions are quite literally killing my enjoyment in games and sadly XIV is no exception. Don't be a whale. Be a savvy player who knows what their time and money are worth.

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+1 I think the issues with whales in general and gachas being so successful is that there is people making tons of money and just want to pay w/e for something they enjoy. There be people loging on this game even if it was 1000 EUR a month.

Gaming went from a new art to how to exploit people for more money, it is a real shame.

If the playerbase didn't push back on retainers, we won't push back on this.

I loathe what developers have become. And yes, I blame the developers. It's not all some sinister guy at the top, it's every single person in the chain who goes out of their way to somehow produce less content for the maximum amount of money.

I’ve waited so long for this app but I absolutely won’t download it. I won’t touch the thing. I pay a sub to play an mmo in a world where most mmo’s are free, for the benefit of being able to avoid this ridiculousness.

Yeah we really need to say something now instead of hand waving it since this is how they get ya. This is almost exactly like the boiling frog situation where a frog will immediately jump out if you throw it into boiling water but if you put it in cold water then gradually turn up the heat they will not perceive the danger then eventually be cooked to death.

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Originally Posted by Vstarstruck

+1 I think the issues with whales in general and gachas being so successful is that there is people making tons of money and just want to pay w/e for something they enjoy. There be people loging on this game even if it was 1000 EUR a month.

Gaming went from a new art to how to exploit people for more money, it is a real shame.

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It's one of the reasons I'm so thankful for Steam, and the tremendous platform it's given to indie developers of all stripes. Sure, a lot of the games have rough edges, but the amount of creativity contained in the random games you can find buried in Steam is tremendous, and gives me hope for the future of gaming as a hobby.

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Originally Posted by Mikki

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i am happy to pay more would the price be always worth it, I play only FF14 as of now and would those money be used directly in the game creation i would gladly even pay 30 € / month unfortunately it does not look the case or at least not in the way i would like, Seems that SE give a bigger budget to ff14 every year depending on their success.

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Originally Posted by Vhailor

It's one of the reasons I'm so thankful for Steam, and the tremendous platform it's given to indie developers of all stripes. Sure, a lot of the games have rough edges, but the amount of creativity contained in the random games you can find buried in Steam is tremendous, and gives me hope for the future of gaming as a hobby.

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Not really wanting to sound pessimistic, but steam is notorious for beign actually a dumpster for asset flippers by now for their massive lack of quality control

Just say no......to drugs?:p

I think there is a lot of preliminary negativity based on too few details to be honest. I am super excited for the app and don't see the negativity. There is nothing really pay to win about it. There isn't really anything that I would consider greatly disrupting about the application so far. I am going to subscribe and probably tell other people to do it too. It's a good value from what I see is provided.

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Originally Posted by Zephanoa

I think there is a lot of preliminary negativity based on too few details to be honest. I am super excited for the app and don't see the negativity. There is nothing really pay to win about it. There isn't really anything that I would consider greatly disrupting about the application so far. I am going to subscribe and probably tell other people to do it too. It's a good value from what I see is provided.

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Is this your first mmo? It sounds like it, if you think they are providing good 'value' with what they have announced.

Whenever someone says super excited I get the song from Southpark in my head ><
"I'm super, thanks for asking...."

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Originally Posted by Mikki

the Japanese community is mostly POSITIVE about the announcement. 75% of people polled said they would be happy to pay for the app and some even said they would pay MORE. When I expressed my concerns to my bf, he told me that the player base they target in Japan is mostly adults with a steady income, where this is their only form of entertainment and so they have no issues to pay for it and have the traditional mindset of Japanese people where paying more = quality.

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Japan has notoriously terrible taste. They love paying for stuff that makes things easier. Those pay to win things are super popular over there. The only reason there's none of those randomized boxes in ffxiv that you pay for is because it's also in a western market and they're not so out of touch that'd they'd include them.

I think that is more about believing that money = power, not really about making things easier but in the sense that my acquisition power is bigger than yours as such I'm better mentality.

In fact what I would like to know is if the app will be released as is in global, since many mobile games gets altered in some ways when they reach the west.

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Originally Posted by Remedi

Not really wanting to sound pessimistic, but steam is notorious for beign actually a dumpster for asset flippers by now for their massive lack of quality control

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I'd hate for them to have quality control standards. The market can decide that, and I'm perfectly capable of reading through reviews and sorting out the spam from the legitimate ones. I just want the options.

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Originally Posted by Zephanoa

I think there is a lot of preliminary negativity based on too few details to be honest. I am super excited for the app and don't see the negativity. There is nothing really pay to win about it. There isn't really anything that I would consider greatly disrupting about the application so far. I am going to subscribe and probably tell other people to do it too. It's a good value from what I see is provided.

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It is absolutely P2W - it just doesn't mesh with your concept of winning. Not everyone plays MMOs for the same reasons you do, however, nor do they view winning the same way. For some players, winning is about Glamours and mount or minion collections. For others, it's about beating the hardest Savage / Ultimate content in the game. And for still others, it's earning Gil and striving to maximize their market footprint. And there are other views, too, of course - countless views.

For these three described groups, however, only the Savage / Ultimate group has retained an unmolested experience. The Mog Station has introduced a forced pay wall for people who see winning as having their Glamours and collections. The Retainer system and, now, the phone app (for mostly different reasons) has introduced a forced pay wall for the market group. This is absolutely P2W - it simply isn't pay to defeat the hardest battle content. Those are two very different things.

You know, there are many things that people have made quit threads over that I've found no problem at all. I've loved most of the content that has been put out. I don't mind at all that the patch cycle is almost the same every time. I enjoy it, so I've no interest in seeing it change.

This, however... this is a direction I have serious problems with. My sub today has exactly 100 days remaining, and for the first time I'm not sure I'm going to re-up when it runs out...

App doesn't effect me... I will come home as usual log in check my retainers and then proceed to undercut everyone by 50% of the lowest MB price.... I don't need a billion gil tomorrow... I can take huge losses and still be happy... I already have a personal and fc house and apt fully decorated... I'm good...

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Originally Posted by Vhailor

It is absolutely P2W - it just doesn't mesh with your concept of winning. Not everyone plays MMOs for the same reasons you do, however, nor do they view winning the same way. For some players, winning is about Glamours and mount or minion collections. For others, it's about beating the hardest Savage / Ultimate content in the game. And for still others, it's earning Gil and striving to maximize their market footprint. And there are other views, too, of course - countless views.

For these three described groups, however, only the Savage / Ultimate group has retained an unmolested experience. The Mog Station has introduced a forced pay wall for people who see winning as having their Glamours and collections. The Retainer system and, now, the phone app (for mostly different reasons) has introduced a forced pay wall for the market group. This is absolutely P2W - it simply isn't pay to defeat the hardest battle content. Those are two very different things.

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That is fair, I don't consider glamour, minions, or mounts pay to win. So you got me on that one. I don't think most people consider social or visual aesthetics pay-to-win because there isn't anything that you can -win- from the items that you can get. Even the retainer system requires additional work in the game in order to make money. Its not as simple as just having a retainer and money. You have to level a job, or multiple jobs. You have to earn gcs and do the work of trading them to even get ventures. Or earn ventures through the normal in game processes.

I felt this was relevant.

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Originally Posted by Krotoan

I'm going to recommend just not using it and if you're enjoying the game just continue as usual. While I get people are feeling threatened by people who might pay and dominate the MB, I'm thinking that won't be as prevalent as they're imagining.

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There's a certain other MMO that has had a mobile based auction house app. It's free to use.

And it's being discontinued, largely due to the very small percentage of the playerbase that actually uses it. I hope others in this thread let that sink in - a totally free app that doesn't restrict how many times you interact with your listings is used so little that it's being discontinued.

Yeah, I absolutely agree that it won't be as prevalent as some think.

All the Power to those that don't...but Im totally using this App lol. It should definitely be interesting.

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Originally Posted by Berethos

Yeah, I absolutely agree that it won't be as prevalent as some think.

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I'm not so sure, for three reasons.

Firstly, FFXIV is a console game as well as a PC game. That makes a difference, I think; as a PC player, I can have FFXIV running in the background whenever I'm home, and interact with it as I choose, with no real interruption for watching Netflix or what have you. That's not nearly so simple when it's connected to the TV with its own reserved input stream, which should increase the value of market interactions.

Secondly, FFXIV is bribing players in a way that WoW never did. Extra saddlebag storage, increased Retainer cap, and likely a couple of other things coming down the road. This'll have an effect, too.

Thirdly, FFXIV has a large Japanese player base. They may very well be more culturally inclined to take advantage of the app than WoW's player base.

Finally, I'd argue that the extent to which the app is used is beside the point. It's not a question of how many people take advantage; it's the principle of the matter, and what it says about the focus of the development team. It says, your paid subscription isn't enough. It says, we're more interested in creating knick-knacks to nickel and dime you with than building strong, polished, creative content into the core FFXIV world. I mean, everyone realizes this app ate up at least some dev resources, right? All because SE is more interested in devoting paid resources toward additional monetization streams, rather than toward shoring up their stale-as-hell content release cycles? Even if the resources weren't part of the FFXIV team directly, the money that went toward them could have gone toward new team members, instead. But because people have shown the Mog Station and Retainer cash grabs to be so profitable, guess where SE aimed?

So, for me, it really doesn't matter how many people take advantage. Even if there isn't an impact on the MB at all, it's still a problem. And it needs to be vigorously shouted down. It likely won't matter in the long run, but every piece of bad press SE gets over this abomination is well-deserved.

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Originally Posted by Berethos

There's a certain other MMO that has had a mobile based auction house app. It's free to use.

And it's being discontinued, largely due to the very small percentage of the playerbase that actually uses it. I hope others in this thread let that sink in - a totally free app that doesn't restrict how many times you interact with your listings is used so little that it's being discontinued.

Yeah, I absolutely agree that it won't be as prevalent as some think.

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See, here's the issue with that logic. Unlike our clunky Market board here, WoW's Auction house doesn't suck. And you have a LOT more room on it, with all the alts people have by this point, unlike SE's solution of "Throw more cash shop retainers at it!"

Really disappointed by this app, I was coming back to FFXIV after finally deciding to try and enjoy SB (I was so unethusiastic about it because no new tanking/healing jobs, and I don't dps), but news that they are adding not just a sub to the app, but microtransactions.

Seriously, a AAA game with $15 sub and additional $5 premium mobile app/mo, plus the costs of all the retainers at $2/each, is adding microtransactions? That shows a greediness that I think goes too far

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Originally Posted by Minerva-Redwater

I'll be downloading the app, it's optional to pay you don't *Need* to pay. The features even for the free plan is worth it.

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I’m downloading the app too, but only the free version, not the premium one. The features in the free version are already good. I don’t need the extra space, I don’t think I would need to organize inventory while on the go, I’ll access MB when actually playing online, I have lots of kupo nuts already and don’t need to buy anything else from the moogle beast tribe vendor.

The paid version is an simply an option.

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Originally Posted by Rasler_Heios

I’m downloading the app too. The features in the free version is already good. I don’t need the extra space, I don’t think I would need to organize inventory while on the go, I’ll access MB when actually playing online and I have lots of kupo nuts already and don’t need to buy anything else from the moonless beast tribe vendor.

The paid version is an simply an option.

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I'll download the app and pay for the premium plan.