"Toxic"? or Just advice you don't want to hear?

I can understand trying to help, and I try to help but I limit it to extreme cases like a paladin who never uses flash at all during the run. Most people will make small mistakes that dont need me instructing them on how to play. Of course people fail to understand a big detail with "help" is that there are other people who are serious douche-canoes about bossing people around and when someone bites back, they use the "only trying to help" as an excuse for their douche-canoeing. If people get enough of those types of people, its only understandable to view help with people being bossy douche-canoes. Its a little thing called "conditioning". If you have enough people conditioning players to view help as being a bossy douche-canoe, they cant help viewing any help, no matter how innocuous as essentially someone being a know it all and bossing them around.

Players snapping at you is only a symptom of the cause and coming down hard on them will only reinforce the conditioning that you were just being a bossy douche-canoe trying to order them around.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

I argued with Thirdchild over this in Pvp. My points then are that the problem with advice is:

1. As random stranger guy in a roulette, you don't have the authority or standing to give advice. Imagine if someone walked up to you on the street and criticized your fashion. To a lesser extent, it's similar. Ideally FCs should be doing this, because you have a relationship with them.
2. Generally people give advice at the worst times, like right after a galling failure. People need time to process failure and emotions, then they may be receptive. You just lost a pvp match, and its your fault; the last thing someone should do is immediately msg you with advice on how to not do that.

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The memory is quite fresh. But consider these factors too:

1. I am an experienced player in an aspect of the game that has just suddenly attracted a bigger crowd that largely doesn't know what to do, or how to do it. While there are guides out there, some even written by me, I can't be sure anyone has bothered to read anything or be familiar with it ahead of time, thus the responsibility of trying to help newer players does fall to me. Of course, I don't HAVE to, but if they're gonna be on my team, I'm only hurting myself and them in the long run by not doing so.
2. I hear you on that, and raise you the story when I told my team (as they're about to do it), "Please don't drop off cliffs to get to the ice when there are enemy players down there already. Healers don't have aoe heals anymore and you'll be showing up at half health, easy to take out." I then proceed to take out 3 people on the other team that did just that. Then a healer of all people chimes in with "Shut up, Lace, no one's interested in your suggestions."

Take a wild guess what happened after that?

"UGH HEALER SUCKS"
"IM SURROUNDED BY NOOBS"
"FK THIS GROUP"
^Toxic

"Hey, perhaps you could do x instead because it will..."
"If you A, then you'll get more B"
Constructive, polite, informative, not toxic.

Younger generations do not take criticism well, and/or those with over pampering parents. (This does not apply to all younger generations, some have good parents.)

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Originally Posted by Linx0r

@ OP,
I can't believe people think of themselves as so egocentric as to point out others flaws and tell them about it, especially if it's in a GAME. If you are raiding, the constructive criticism is expected, but really, you feel you NEED to tell people what they did wrong? Maybe ASK before TELLING. It's super rude for people to just go off on someone else. If you are just that type of person that NEEDS to tell people what they are doing wrong, maybe you are in the wrong and have some work to do on your personality in being sensitive towards others.

No way is this a shot at you, but many many people feel they are doing good by 'telling' people what to do rather than wording it in a polite way what they did wrong (and asking first).

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If I get a mute bard, Im going to go "Bard, songs?". If both healers are dead and the redmage isn't raising, "Redmage, get the healers".

Its this kind of treading softly on eggshells because uwu feelings that made Shinryuu normal bottle neck. Are you so thin skinned that someone pointing things out is immediately some kind of personal insult?

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

I argued with Thirdchild over this in Pvp. My points then are that the problem with advice is:

1. As random stranger guy in a roulette, you don't have the authority or standing to give advice. Imagine if someone walked up to you on the street and criticized your fashion. To a lesser extent, it's similar. Ideally FCs should be doing this, because you have a relationship with them.
2. Generally people give advice at the worst times, like right after a galling failure. People need time to process failure and emotions, then they may be receptive. You just lost a pvp match, and its your fault; the last thing someone should do is immediately msg you with advice on how to not do that.

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I honestly cant agree with either of your points... but let me adress them seperatly.

1. Thats a very bad comparison you're drawing there - unless we're talking about glamour-advice (something some people also seem to desperatly need...). A better comparison would be: You see someone trying to open a door, that you wanna pass through aswell. The door has a sign saying "push". The person is trying to pull. For 5 minutes now. Will you just idly stand by, have their and your time wasted, til their mother comes along to tell them "Sweety... you need to push this door..."
If someone is struggeling with some fundamental stuff in the game and you know better, I'd say you dont only have the authority but the obligation to give them a (polite) advice. You're not only making your current run faster/smoother for everyone around but are also helping that person to have an overall better experience with the game. I had to kick tanks and healers from content because they couldnt hold hate (or wouldnt even try, no tank-stance, no flash, no... nothing) or absolutly failed to heal. I doubt that those people are having a very good experience with the game but totally failing isnt something we should tolerate because of "feelings". Which brings me to
2. As I basically already said: Even if this is just a game, I dont believe in treating everyone like a fragile little thing. Advice should be presented in a polite, encouraging matter - "Hey, doing [THIS] works great for me! Maybe you want to try it aswell?" - but it absolutly should be presented, if you can. Part of the game is to sit down after a wipe/loss and ask yourself "What went wrong right now and how can we prevent this from happening?"
While I would advice to try not to point fingers straight away, I also know that you wont get anywhere if you're not honest about what happend. If you want to progress, there isnt room for everyone to make sure they're in a mental state to recive advice.
And sometimes, a quick advice given during a fight can prevent a failure in the first place - which is to be preferd, in my book.

If your ego is so fragile that you cant take advice in a videogame, you should probably stick to solo-games.
I'm all for treating people nicely, with respect and adressing them in a polite manner. But I dont agree with walking on eggshells and considering "feelings" and "emotions" when giving advice on fundamental things.
Dont understand how flash works at level 50? Jep, you've opend up yourself for some advice there!

I also had great success with giving polite and friendly advice and I'm sure the people that were willing to take it, are having a better experience with the game alltogether now. Why should I withhold the chance to better themself from anyone?

You're talking about the feelings of the person reciving the advice, aka the person in need of advice - what about the feelings of the other people in that party? What about their time? Wiping and failing is frustrating for everyone and if the reason is that one person is not able to handle mechanics or do their job properly, thats frustrating (a bad emotion!) for everyone in that run.
What is your solution to this?
Praying that the WHM will figure out that thats a stack marker this time and not run away and die like during the last three attempts?
Kick the WHM to get a healer in who knows what they're doing, without saying a word to the WHM?
Or... maybe... just let them know what they need to do - at the risk of hurting their feelings or maybe, just maybe, giving them the feeling of "Oh, I can do this after all!" and on top of that being able to finish the run?

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Originally Posted by Rokke

If I get a mute bard, Im going to go "Bard, songs?". If both healers are dead and the redmage isn't raising, "Redmage, get the healers".

Its this kind of treading softly on eggshells because uwu feelings that made Shinryuu normal bottle neck. Are you so thin skinned that someone pointing things out is immediately some kind of personal insult?

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I didn't know I could agree so hard with something before o.o

The only way to avoid this is by queuing with a friend so you guys can kill randos that are playing badly in 4 man dungeons. As for everything else it's always a coin toss and there isn't really anything you can do about it other than just bear with it or leave outright.

i just help out in mentor roulette generally because otherwise people seem very snappy at you... so usually i just give some advice on what to do for boss and what not, if they see it they see it if not and it goes fine thats okay too, but outside of mentor they can be pretty snappy if you say a word in chat, I've gotten instances where talking is considered time-wasting

ps : applejinx i love your signature!

You can probably tell them anything and everything, all that person would have to do is just turn off their chat, just saying.

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Originally Posted by Krokov

You can probably tell them anything and everything, all that person would have to do is just turn off their chat, just saying.

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I have met a couple people who have their chat turned off.
We would only ever find out after much frustration because our advise on how to not wipe us was ignored. :(

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Originally Posted by Rokke

If I get a mute bard, Im going to go "Bard, songs?". If both healers are dead and the redmage isn't raising, "Redmage, get the healers".

Its this kind of treading softly on eggshells because uwu feelings that made Shinryuu normal bottle neck. Are you so thin skinned that someone pointing things out is immediately some kind of personal insult?

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Amen to that.

Last week, I was co-healing a not so great raba run. Our alliance did better than most but still...

anyways, we had this one mch who repeatedly died. Like, the amount was to the point where it was exhausting our mp. He was not new to the raid either. After the whole raid wiped twice to Hashmal and him dying to the same things, he tried to pass off his deaths as a joke. When my co-healer simply said "You died a lot", the MCH told him he knew and that my co-healer was a jerk for calling him out.

I then piped up and said someone calling you out civilly does not make them jerks, especially if the person who was being called out died that many times. He then responds that he knew, that he was just making jokes about it. And then he added that I was a jerk.

I'm sorry but if I was dying that many times in a party full of strangers, I wouldn't be trying to crack jokes. I'd apologize and actually ask some tips. And I would not wait on try #2 or #3.

This lack of self-accountability is another reason why some people avoid giving advice. They can't trust that the person has enough self-awareness and respect to realize they're messing up in a very bad way.

"Point out a mistake to a clever person and he will thank you. Point out a mistake to a stupid person and he will insult you." - Lao Tzu

If people prefer defending themselves because they let their ego to be hurt, then so be it.
You will find this in any game you play, more even in competitive ones. Sadly I can only advice letting people do their thing because the ones thinking about what you have to say are few and far in between (and chances are those few already read any information available online).

The only advice I hear alot is LB ! Which I glady ignore for most of the time for several of reasons. Al those dying melee's in Titan ex flying of the screen after a tank screams LB , still love those. ( i know why people scream it , many refuse to use LB at all in dungeons and raids or keep it for the last final boss )

I only give advice to new players. I dont have the knowledge to advice people at higher levels for most of the jobs and everybody has a different playstyle anyway.

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Originally Posted by ShadowHunterrX

The only advice I hear alot is LB ! Which I glady ignore for most of the time for several of reasons. Al those dying melee's in Titan ex flying of the screen after a tank screams LB , still love those. ( i know why people scream it , many refuse to use LB at all in dungeons and raids or keep it for the last final boss )

I only give advice to new players. I dont have the knowledge to advice people at higher levels for most of the jobs and everybody has a different playstyle anyway.

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I feel like it goes a bit beyond different playstyle when you have dps single targeting a pack of mobs or healers that just toss out a cure every few seconds. What type of playstyle is that? It's not like the classes in this game are so versatile that you can realistically play them more than one way. The only difference is the gap between those who play them right and those who don't is huge enough that it may seem like a different playstyle altogether...

Toxic players come in all shapes in forms, including those trying to force feed their advice when it really isn't needed. Your intentions might be in the right in place, but calling a player out tends to lead to the group being even less efficient than they were before you decided to say something.

As an example, a group I was in recently had a DPS players call out the DRK after the second boss for staying in Grit the whole time. This was despite the fact that the run was going smooth, but he just couldn't stand that the DRK would not go into offensive stance, and JUST had to say something. So the other DPS and I were in the next screen while these two dotes kept bickering amongst themselves in the damn boss room.

Dungeons are designed in a way where if everyone does the bare minimum their role requires, you will clear it. The only time I call someone out is when the way a player is conducting themselves is actually making the clear not possible, or if everyone else has to work harder to makeup for his/her deficiencies. It's on the players to take it upon themselves to improve, not their group members.

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Originally Posted by ShadowHunterrX

The only advice I hear alot is LB ! Which I glady ignore for most of the time for several of reasons. Al those dying melee's in Titan ex flying of the screen after a tank screams LB , still love those. ( i know why people scream it , many refuse to use LB at all in dungeons and raids or keep it for the last final boss)

I only give advice to new players. I dont have the knowledge to advice people at higher levels for most of the jobs and everybody has a different playstyle anyway.

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I often do dungeon with a friend but he always says "lb" when boss has still too much hp to be killed. Why would I want to use LB to get the boss from 20% to 15% when I can hold it a bit longer and end the duty in the most stylish manner.

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Originally Posted by F_Maximillian

I feel like it goes a bit beyond different playstyle when you have dps single targeting a pack of mobs or healers that just toss out a cure every few seconds. What type of playstyle is that? It\\'s not like the classes in this game are so versatile that you can realistically play them more than one way.

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Sometimes you need to adjust your playstyle to different people. Because of gear, movement and behaviour in general. it's more then just a simple holy spam or more healing. Ofcourse you have good and bad players. But in dungeons also another people can make you look bad. For example I am a monk, if a tank place the boss in a way I cannot do back attacks my DPS will drop. People who dont know anything about monk will see me as a bad player for the low DPS.

By reading reaction you already showing your lack of reading the situation and riding in your own tunnel.

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Originally Posted by Sesera

I often do dungeon with a friend but he always says "lb" when boss has still too much hp to be killed. Why would I want to use LB to get the boss from 20% to 15% when I can hold it a bit longer and end the duty in the most stylish manner.

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He think it goes faster ;)

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Originally Posted by Sesera

I often do dungeon with a friend but he always says "lb" when boss has still too much hp to be killed. Why would I want to use LB to get the boss from 20% to 15% when I can hold it a bit longer and end the duty in the most stylish manner.

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You understand that taking a boss from 20% to 15% HP from a single gcd is MASSIVE, correct? Even a DPS single target LB1 is a very high potency attack. So high that healer and tank LB1 are almost never seen, ever; and negligible when they are used, i.e. not a difference maker. During a dungeon run, it is almost always best to use LB1 as soon as it is available and will cause the most amount of damage because sitting on a full LB gauge does absolutely nothing. My comm will often go to the DPS member of my group who is aware of this and LBs a pack of mobs, or uses a full LB gauge at the start of a boss fight.

Style points don't really matter when your LB is overkill for the boss. It's more bad than good when you hit the boss for 95% more damage required to kill it.

I use holy as a whm more then I should in drex but it also lets me keep my target on the tank for a quick heal

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Originally Posted by Sesera

I often do dungeon with a friend but he always says "lb" when boss has still too much hp to be killed. Why would I want to use LB to get the boss from 20% to 15% when I can hold it a bit longer and end the duty in the most stylish manner.

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Because using the lb as soon as possible gives it time to rebuild so it can be used again.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

Style points don't really matter when your LB is overkill for the boss. It's more bad than good when you hit the boss for 95% more damage required to kill it.

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This is why you often see melee dps sitting and waiting for the second bar in dungeons even though 1 bar would finish off the boss that's already at 5-6%. That's usually when I roll my eyes and just use caster or ranged LB (I usually wait and see since I know those two are lower potency, also out of some weird politeness for melee)

Yeah....that pretty much is what toxic means......

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Originally Posted by Rokke

If I get a mute bard, Im going to go "Bard, songs?". If both healers are dead and the redmage isn't raising, "Redmage, get the healers".

Its this kind of treading softly on eggshells because uwu feelings that made Shinryuu normal bottle neck. Are you so thin skinned that someone pointing things out is immediately some kind of personal insult?

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I’m giving out my opinion, I’m not saying that’s the way I am. I honestly could care less what people have to say. People play the game they want and if advice is needed, people will ask. They don’t need players spouting things like ‘git gud’. For players that FEEL they NEED to spout from their mouth, ask if people want advice first or be polite in your presentation

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Originally Posted by Rokke

If I get a mute bard, Im going to go "Bard, songs?". If both healers are dead and the redmage isn't raising, "Redmage, get the healers".

Its this kind of treading softly on eggshells because uwu feelings that made Shinryuu normal bottle neck. Are you so thin skinned that someone pointing things out is immediately some kind of personal insult?

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Also, are You so egotistical to think that people want to hear your opinion? The argument goes both ways and I’m pointing out another side of it. I just see soooooo many people spouting ‘advice’ when it honestly never helps (raids aside) . If you are in a dungeon, seriously it’s a dungeon

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Originally Posted by Linx0r

Also, are You so egotistical to think that people want to hear your opinion? The argument goes both ways and I’m pointing out another side of it. I just see soooooo many people spouting ‘advice’ when it honestly never helps (raids aside) . If you are in a dungeon, seriously it’s a dungeon

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When tank does a big pull and the MCH isn’t using AoEs or the SMN has died 3 times to the same mechanic time I’m going to say something. I’m not going to start calling people idiots or go off on some expletive heavy caplock rant, but pointing people in the right direction is infinitely better than sitting quietly and hoping that one day they’ll figure it out on their own. Again, Shinryuu proved that many made it to 70 without learning how to play the game.


Advice does help. It might not help you but what can ya do with an attitude like

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Originally Posted by Linx0r

I honestly could care less what people have to say

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When I was a wee healer I regen'd pre-pull. One day a tank told me to stop as it was the reason the enemies would immediately attempt to punch my face in. 2 years later, I tell healers to stop pre-pulling regen. Its a bad habit. The faster you stop, the better you'll be down the line. If people cannot handle others pointing out obvious errors (use heavy thrust, use songs, use cooldowns, use enochian, use positionals, etc), they probably should stick to single player games.

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Originally Posted by Linx0r

If you are in a dungeon, seriously it’s a dungeon

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See I can't agree with this, if you are playing badly then you should be given helpful advice otherwise the others in the group are doing more work and I do not pay my sub to carry others. A bad player adds 5 minutes plus which I'd rather spend doing something else.

Like I said I will be polite and take feelings into consideration, the advice is advice take it or leave it but don't berate someone only trying to help. The discussion is the far too negative reaction to being offered help as if its "toxic" when the only toxic thing in the game is this type of bad attitude and unwillingness to learn.

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Originally Posted by Linx0r

Also, are You so egotistical to think that people want to hear your opinion? The argument goes both ways and I’m pointing out another side of it. I just see soooooo many people spouting ‘advice’ when it honestly never helps (raids aside) . If you are in a dungeon, seriously it’s a dungeon

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And there it is folks. "Seriously, it's a dungeon".

The Duty Finder Mentality.

That mentality is why we have that thread about sharing DF horror stories and similar things. It's the fundamental flaw that prevents us from simply having a better community.

I won't for a minute try to glorify the JP community, but I have to admire the fact that they'll use the Party Finder for practice and learning, if only to be able to put their best foot forward if and when they use the Duty Finder. . . And just look at their clear rates. While some may be scoffing at me saying that, stop and think for a moment that perhaps by coming in with the mentality to do their best and not be a burden on others, they're doing something right. . .

Granted, that's just not how the NA community works, and it's not going to change overnight. But! There's nothing saying it can't ever change. For that to happen though, the idea that it's "just Duty Finder" needs to go away. Tighten up. Give your best or get out. You don't have to be perfect, but you damn well better be trying at least. One person may think it's fine to be carried, but if everyone there is expecting to be carried, pretty soon you'll notice no one's going anywhere.

I remember once back when mechanics mattered more in the Typhon and Ultros fight, telling someone they needed to collect stacks by standing in the ultro's bubble cone aoe, and only imp punch Typhon when he was casting that long snort move (don't remember what it was called). The guy before then had been punching Typhon the entire time when in imp form (causing wipes).
He then got extremely toxic, and insisted I was wrong. Even when 3 others backed me up.
Eventually everyone voted to abandon, and I saw the guy was on my server. I sent him the youtube link to the guide for him to watch and told him what point to skip to, to watch that exact mechanic, and what I got back was "Thanks for whispering me, now I can blacklist you <3".

I was speechless.

Turns out, you can only help someone who wants to be helped.

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Originally Posted by Linx0r

I’m giving out my opinion, I’m not saying that’s the way I am.

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I'm sorry, but based on your posts I am disinclined to believe you on that.

I mean your first post in here....

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Originally Posted by Linx0r

I can't believe people think of themselves as so egocentric as to point out others flaws and tell them about it, especially if it's in a GAME. If you are raiding, the constructive criticism is expected, but really, you feel you NEED to tell people what they did wrong? Maybe ASK before TELLING. It's super rude for people to just go off on someone else. If you are just that type of person that NEEDS to tell people what they are doing wrong, maybe you are in the wrong and have some work to do on your personality in being sensitive towards others.

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You call people offering advice egocentric, rude, bad personality, and insensitive.

I think that's all of it? It seems like you are taking this pretty personally to label people who try to help others all those negatives.

I mean...look at all those negative labels? All because someone tried to help another player? When did "help" become a negative thing?

I don't think I have seen anyone post in here that has said they are impolite with their advice or "go off on someone else" with any kind of rude words. They simply use neutral and polite requests or instructions to help the player and help the group.

So...why all this tirade of negative labels? What was the fuel to drive this post?

Are people who try to help others really all those negative things?

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Originally Posted by Miste

Are people who try to help others really all those negative things?

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Depends on the approach they take. Do they take a condescending tone, or do they take a polite tone? It is possible to be "helpful" while being condescending, such as "You're a moron, you need to do this." (yes, I do occasionally see it), vs a more encouraging term like "Have you tried this? It helps in this manner." - if someone takes the former approach I'm not afraid to stick up for the person being insulted (by vote kicking the insulter, and if needed explaining after about what was being explained, in an encouraging manner), but if they take the latter approach I'll remain quiet as there's no need to stick up for anybody. We need to be willing to help and be helped, but insults won't help at all.

Simply put, advice is fine if given in a friendly and supportive manner (rather than as a thinly veiled insult), and those who disagree in my opinion need to grow a thick skin. Especially as there's a good chunk of people who won't be friendly about it and will instead launch profanity and insult-laden tirades at you. Those giving advice in a friendly and supportive manner are helping you disarm those sorts of people, by patching up your play so there's less for them to insult!

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Originally Posted by Paladinleeds

Depends on the approach they take. Do they take a condescending tone, or do they take a polite tone? It is possible to be "helpful" while being condescending, such as "You're a moron, you need to do this."

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I think you misunderstand. I am not talking about people who give advice that way since it is quite obvious that is the wrong way. I am talking about neutral and polite advice. I am talking about the people who have posted in this thread and I don't recall anyone saying they give advice in a rude way at all, just neutral and polite.

Not to say no one is rude like that with advice in-game, but it would be obvious why no one should condone that kind of rude advice and it doesn't seem like anyone in this thread condones that kind of rudeness nor has anyone said they give advice in such a rude way either.

So basically I wanted to know why he posted that @OP and to the thread ... with that rant that seemed to be very accusatory. The OP and no one else in this thread seems to be advocating rude advice? Which would be common sense. So I don't get the reason for it nor understand all the negative labels he threw.

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Originally Posted by Miste

I think you misunderstand. I am not talking about people who give advice that way since it is quite obvious that is the wrong way. I am talking about neutral and polite advice. I am talking about the people who have posted in this thread and I don't recall anyone saying they give advice in a rude way at all, just neutral and polite.

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Aye, I did misunderstand. My apologies there. In this case then, I totally agree with you. As for the common sense thing, at least where I live, it's actually very rare. I don't agree with what he said either. I want to go on a tirade about it but I will refrain, because I know that'll be seen by some as justification for how he feels. But in online multiplayer games, you need to have a thick skin. Especially the female players. The abuse I've had to moderate for the chats of female streamers is insane for example. I mean, if you pass something off in the tone you're suggesting, I will try my best to take it on board (some things can be more difficult due to disabilities, but that's different and the people in this thread you're talking about who give advice would understand if that were the case for someone). So yeah.

Nowadays, it has become rather difficult to tell between legit advice and passive aggression when it comes to gaming. The lack of vocal articulation does not help this situation. Now, couple this with the standard stigma of of everyone being toxic children and you have a nice little bit of social Russian roulette to enjoy. Validity of said stigma irrelevant, lies that are told enough times become truth. Because one should never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups. Yes, I just chain quoted Goebbels and Carlin.

Regardless, Chalk this issue up to a mix of people not knowing what civility is, and people jumping at their own shadows. Me? I couldn't care less how many times the BIS tank has seen the interior of Sastasha, and pointing that out makes for a great catharsis for what ails me emotionally. Or I'll simply do it out of spite, because the blue DPS's whining is wasting my time and thus pissing me off. Likewise, I'll make clear to the new person that I'm not being a passive little ----- with my advice. In a manner that is devoid of any subtlety and sugar coating. Because this also pisses me off. Screw turning the other cheek.

chat hurt people feelings, remove chat

Like everything in life if they don't ask don't tell, people who don't ask something usually don't want to be told. Fact is all Advice comes off insulting to people not asking for help, say you had a math question you solved it"beat boss with below avg dps" but did it in a long not really helpful roundabout way & someone else loudly called you out in front whole class"Raid group" offered you a easier more useful method to solving it"proper rotation", whilst it might actually help in long run you'd feel very called out & insulted.

If going try give advice I'd say might be less insulting to someone do it through a tell, even then you'll probably get hate because as said if someone isn't bothering to ask then probably most likely don't want any advice & think they're doing just fine.

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Originally Posted by Lord_Umbra

Like everything in life if they don't ask don't tell, people who don't ask something usually don't want to be told. Fact is all Advice comes off insulting to people not asking for help, say you had a math question you solved it"beat boss with below avg dps" but did it in a long not really helpful roundabout way & someone else loudly called you out in front whole class"Raid group" offered you a easier more useful method to solving it"proper rotation", whilst it might actually help in long run you'd feel very called out & insulted.

If going try give advice I'd say might be less insulting to someone do it through a tell, even then you'll probably get hate because as said if someone isn't bothering to ask then probably most likely don't want any advice & think they're doing just fine.

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It's like people don't know how to talk or interact with people anymore. Case in point: after the aforementioned "beat boss with below avg dps", the person retorts your response with "I was just sayin'" while actually being so stupid as to actually think that they know what criticism is. Case in point: if I were a recipient of LOLcriticism such as this, my fear would be my raid peers seeing this as a divine gospel and proceed to spread the good word to the masses who will also accept the light of truth that they have been blessed with, rendering any sort of future improvement meaning less as the people have accepted the divine gospel that says otherwise.

If a person is offended by a "what and why" statement, they need to either stop being so readily defensive, or actually listen and avoid the issue all together.

"Hey, position yourself away from the party with that marker," (what) "so that the party takes less damage." (why)
"Use Iron Jaws," (what) "to refresh both your dots at once." (why)
"Don't preload ammo before battle," (what) "doing so locks you out of heat generation for 3 shots, lowering your damage." (why) [This is a PvP MCH example]

All of that isn't much different from if I were to say, "Hey watch your step," (what) "there's broken glass there." (why)

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Originally Posted by Lord_Umbra

even then you'll probably get hate because as said if someone isn't bothering to ask then probably most likely don't want any advice & think they're doing just fine.

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Like everything in life? If the human race did this where we don't offer help to others simply to avoid hurting people's feelings....we never would have made it out of the stone age or evolved at all :/

Yes, it is just a game, but that is also a good reason why people shouldn't be getting so pissed off and "give hate" to others over something so minor like giving a few tips about something game related. It's a game right? Why start flinging derogatory language at someone simply trying to help you with said game? (assuming the person was polite/neutral with their advice, I don't advocate rudeness)

I mean you can't expect everyone to figure things out all alone...we learn by helping each other. Like you said that person "thinks they are doing just fine", but they factually might not be....they may never figure it out unless others who were more experienced helped them with it.

If someone feels insulted to the point of lashing out with derogatory language simply over polite/neutral advice from someone else on a MMO they either shouldn't be playing MMOs or they need to get a thicker skin.

Many times it is the way it is said, or in this case the way it is written. People can read things and interpret them differently from their own point of view and view them as negative or positive.

If someone says " Please use Holy sometimes healer" someone can take that as a rude comment or telling them how to do their job.

But if someone says the same thing " Please use Holy sometimes healer to stun the large groups of adds." Then someone would look at it differently.


Some people offer help and others can find it offending. That is the crazy world we live in. Apparently though that doesnt happen on the Japanese servers.

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Originally Posted by Miste

So...why all this tirade of negative labels? What was the fuel to drive this post?

Are people who try to help others really all those negative things?

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Really, i'm offering another perspective and my opinion, and it doesn't make me wrong. most people will hear what you have to say (including myself when i've offered advice) but at the end of the day, you create more drama by doing so. from my experience, ASK people if they want advice. By no means am i taking this personally, but offering an opinion to widen the scope of this thread. not everyone may think as you do, miste. ....or how i do, for that matter.