Community Discussion - Battle Theory

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Originally Posted by Quatre

However much i agree and like your idea, I have to bring up the problem that we'll encounter.

If you -require- certain jobs for an encounter, many people will become upset that you NEED to have at least 1 ____ in order to do the fight.


Now if you group it together so that ARC/MRD have 1 incap, LNC/GLD have 1 incap and PGL/THM have 1 incap (etc. etc) Then you're going to encounter the problem that only ONE of the classes in that "pair" will be the "preffered" class.

I think it's a very fine line to walk... No idea what to do as a happy medium.

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No matter what you do, someone will always complain about it. Forcing parties to incorporate a variety of classes is the lesser evil compared to encouraging class stacking IMO.

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Originally Posted by syntaxlies

if the damage of the party bonus is bigger then the WS then this will encourage diverse party play. a combo that requires pug,lnc,archer,mrd, with a thm nuke would be ideal. If these huge damage burst were calculated into the battle upon creation of battle then people would have to have diverse party's out of necessity.

so if a perfect 5 hit chain hits and gets a 100%damage bonus at end, the days of class stacking will be over imo.

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can anyone say skillchains and magic burst...

Maybe a system like in FFIB:TAY where you could combine powers with multiple characters?

CNJ + THM = Elemental Wrath

CNJ + PLD = Benediction

THM + ARC = Elemental shot

Things like that.

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Originally Posted by Bowen

Maybe a system like in FFIB:TAY where you could combine powers with multiple characters?

CNJ + THM = Elemental Wrath

CNJ + PLD = Benediction

THM + ARC = Elemental shot

Things like that.

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I had a thread about that back in the day... where Using "Riot Blade" from Gladiator in conjunction with "Chaos thrust" from Lancer unleashed a huge weaponskill flurry called "Anarchy"
Get it? Clever, right?

The day that we do not have to class stack for every boss fight, will be happy day indeed. Out of everything in this game, the trend, nearly a requirement, to class stack frustrates me to no end. I pray that jobs will fix this issue...

I like the principle of your idea, but there is one thing.

All of the incapacitates must have multiple classes that can complete them just to take into account future class releases. More or less, we need the current incapacitate system, but implemented in your style instead of the current, one class hits one part til it breaks, system.

Also, bear in mind people. The current fights are designed and balanced for level 45 Job parties and will likely be significantly easier after 1.21.

Actually there is a bit of an issue with encouraging all classes being used too strongly. If you force it, like even I've suggested, you get the issue of quotas. "Oh sorry, we've already got a PGL so we can't take you." I mean I guess it's still not as bad but it's still an issue. People will only take the bare minimum of other required classes.

What if mobs started building resistance to the same type of damage over time? This could also be quite combative to the "top DD only" approach to fights. So you take four THMs to Ifrit and it works amazing for most of the fight? But then around 30% health you are noticing that you are getting resisted a lot more, making him much harder to kill.

Something XI had that we really don't is a focus on blunt/piercing/slashing damage. All of which XIV has, but I can say I surely cannot tell if they add any effect at all.

Also, I support the OP's idea^^ (Anything to let me play my main class, PUG, I support) <3

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Originally Posted by Kiote

I like the principle of your idea, but there is one thing.

All of the incapacitates must have multiple classes that can complete them just to take into account future class releases. More or less, we need the current incapacitate system, but implemented in your style instead of the current, one class hits one part til it breaks, system.

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I don't know if you'd have to take future classes into account....
There is a chance classes will come with a cap raises... making the NM's easy... even without the Incaps

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Originally Posted by Arcell

Actually there is a bit of an issue with encouraging all classes being used too strongly. If you force it, like even I've suggested, you get the issue of quotas. "Oh sorry, we've already got a PGL so we can't take you." I mean I guess it's still not as bad but it's still an issue. People will only take the bare minimum of other required classes.

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Thats the balancing of it...
I was thinking it would be about as tough as Ifrit if you can do all 3 special incap objectives
If you can only do 2, then it becomes more of a challenge
1 incap and its a real pain in the ass to beat him.. those fights that take nearly all of the allotted time
and with no incaps... you'd have to be a first rate group with super high DPS and grat teamwork and communication to even stand a chance....

But given my example... it would be tough (possible but tough) to not be able to do any of the incaps

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Originally Posted by OranGemeo

Something XI had that we really don't is a focus on blunt/piercing/slashing damage. All of which XIV has, but I can say I surely cannot tell if they add any effect at all.

Also, I support the OP's idea^^ (Anything to let me play my main class, PUG, I support) <3

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I like that... You know... In the beginning I looked at Blunt, slashing, etc... but after a while I just didn't pay attention...
I've all but forgotten about them... they seem to be downplayed quite a bit in FFXIV... sad...

Bump... edited the OP with a question to the players

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If there were special objectives to complete... How would you want to find out about it?
For instance "Garuda"
SE could tell you how to do the wing incaps (What classes, skills and method) and tell you what affect it will have on the battle
or....
The could tell you nothing and see how many times people get owned before they realize (If they ever realize) that they need a Pug and Lancer working together to incap one wing.. and a Marauder and Archer to incap the other

There is also various middle ground.
1. SE could tell us there are special objectives but not tell us what they are or how to do them
2. They could tell us what the objectives are but still not how to do them
3. They could have clues in game, through quest dialogue help you ascertain what you need to do to make the fight easier

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The less they tell the players about the strategy of the fight, the better. As it is, the primal fights are barely lasting a week (didn't moogle take a grand total of 2 days or something?) before the first LSes beat them and conceive a working strategy. I'm not asking for something as convoluted as Absolute Virtue, but still, they should leave us in the dark and let us figure it out.

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Originally Posted by Fated

The less they tell the players about the strategy of the fight, the better. As it is, the primal fights are barely lasting a week (didn't moogle take a grand total of 2 days or something?) before the first LSes beat them and conceive a working strategy. I'm not asking for something as convoluted as Absolute Virtue, but still, they should leave us in the dark and let us figure it out.

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Didn't even last the whole night.

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Originally Posted by Fated

The less they tell the players about the strategy of the fight, the better. As it is, the primal fights are barely lasting a week (didn't moogle take a grand total of 2 days or something?) before the first LSes beat them and conceive a working strategy. I'm not asking for something as convoluted as Absolute Virtue, but still, they should leave us in the dark and let us figure it out.

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thats what Im leaning towards.. maybe, "MAYBE" a slight VAGUE hint....
Like the NPC makes it a point to mention how powerful and devastating Garuda's wings are... But nothing specific

I would rather make it so that if you're observant you can figure out what to incap and what it would do. To go with your garuda example, let's say she flies up occasionally to stay out of range. If you incap both her wings she'd be unable to do that and it's fairly intuitive to figure out "If she's being annoying flying I need to stop her from flying". Also, making enemy WS animations give hints for incap'ing their moves. Let's say an enemy uses a really strong punch WS and the animation shows it swinging its right arm. If you incap its right arm, it could prevent the use of that move or severely weaken it.

IMO Making incaps more intuitive, making the skill descriptions themselves tell us what they incap, and making it obvious WHEN we've incap'd an enemy would go a long way to making it more interesting.

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Originally Posted by Estellios

I would rather make it so that if you're observant you can figure out what to incap and what it would do. To go with your garuda example, let's say she flies up occasionally to stay out of range. If you incap both her wings she'd be unable to do that and it's fairly intuitive to figure out "If she's being annoying flying I need to stop her from flying". Also, making enemy WS animations give hints for incap'ing their moves. Let's say an enemy uses a really strong punch WS and the animation shows it swinging its right arm. If you incap its right arm, it could prevent the use of that move or severely weaken it.

IMO Making incaps more intuitive, making the skill descriptions themselves tell us what they incap, and making it obvious WHEN we've incap'd an enemy would go a long way to making it more interesting.

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Its like you read my mind... thats the perfect idea for the Garuda fight

I'm relatively new to FFXIV (bought the CE and played for a week or two before quitting; came back a couple weeks ago) but battles still feel unstructured and spammy. As such, I can't say that the status quo will draw people in if it remains for 2.0