Why do people say no?

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Originally Posted by Rydin

I'll be honest... I think hard mode is a lazy way to add challenging content.

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i agree lol. was just speaking in the at the worst situation. i don't really like it in swtor. its all they have really as content at start repeating older content as harder content. and most of it ain't really that much harder. not having the right gears or not knowing what to do is only thing difficult other then that they are a breeze. it is very lazy way to turning one content into 2 lol. but no harder difficulty is worse then least having it that way. dcu did this too and it's got like 1 server that is f2p and swtor might take longer to get there but it will probably end up in the same boat.

It's the Bioware effect -- a lot of their games rehash earlier content as harder content later on, generally for "side" content. Whether that's good or bad is subjective however.

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Originally Posted by weeble

how is solo'ing a story line in probably a total of a few hours content? yes it's a good story but in the end that is all it is. the last boss took me a few tries cause it took a bit to figure out the canons, but that is about it. other then that it took one try threw the hole thing. no dry runs as we called it in ffxi, no dying repeatedly. no anything, but i figure this would or could change for 2.0 and beyond.

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*shrug* I thoroughly enjoy going through a deep and involved story FAR more than I enjoy joining up with 8~64 dudes to wail at a monster, really. But this actually is pretty descriptive of my actual point: "There needs to be varied content to appeal to all bases"

I'm sure you probably would just skip all cutscenes in the 120-hour main quest just to get to the battles, i'd skip the battles to get to the story (okay, not really, i'm being hyperbolic here). That doesn't means that the game can't attempt to appeal to both of us, right?

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Originally Posted by Skies

*shrug* I thoroughly enjoy going through a deep and involved story FAR more than I enjoy joining up with 8~64 dudes to wail at a monster, really. But this actually is pretty descriptive of my actual point: "There needs to be varied content to appeal to all bases"

I'm sure you probably would just skip all cutscenes in the 120-hour main quest just to get to the battles, i'd skip the battles to get to the story (okay, not really, i'm being hyperbolic here). That doesn't means that the game can't attempt to appeal to both of us, right?

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They can attempt it but recent MMO history has shown it hardly ever works out and one way overpowers the other -- It's why they generally stick with one style of content. Some MMOs may have "solo content" and "group content", but the majority of the time the solo content is usually quests, PvP and most instances with only a few of the instances and dungeons being built towards group play. (That's ignoring difficulty scaling as well.)

This is why CoP era XI was pretty great because it was built towards those who like storyline and those who like tough battles/fighting, then they ruined it with ToAU by making it purely storybased and lack of any challenge until Alexander fight >.>

(which was almost 2 years into the expansion lol.)

My main issue with trying to shoehorn XI mechanics into XIV...

When I played XI I was in college, the time sinks and atrocious grind didn't mean anything, if I felt like it I could skip class and then there were the lengthy breaks in between semesters. I could play the game on it's schedule like was mentioned earlier.

Then I graduated, and got a real job. Now I had far less time to play, logging on a having to wait hours to find or make a party became frustrating. Low level quests or content that either had silly timers or required full parties to complete became sticking points. I eventually felt like I was just treading water and I was no longer having fun to to the various barriers to entry on a lot of the content...

Then game games Like WoW and the like that I could log on and actually accomplish things with maybe an hour or so to play, I didn't have to sit and wait like XI forced me to, I could get stuck right in from the moment I logged on, not sitting in town hoping a white mage would log on so I could finally round out my party just to get my next level, no I could do that on my own or with a group if I liked...

XI was great when I first played it, the trouble is I and the average gamer has moved on since the time when those kind of mechanics were actually truly viable, and now I want something I can play when I WANT to play it, not when it will LET ME play it.

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Originally Posted by Pandastirfry

My main issue with trying to shoehorn XI mechanics into XIV...

When I played XI I was in college, the time sinks and atrocious grind didn't mean anything, if I felt like it I could skip class and then there were the lengthy breaks in between semesters. I could play the game on it's schedule like was mentioned earlier.

Then I graduated, and got a real job. Now I had far less time to play, logging on a having to wait hours to find or make a party became frustrating. Low level quests or content that either had silly timers or required full parties to complete became sticking points. I eventually felt like I was just treading water and I was no longer having fun to to the various barriers to entry on a lot of the content...

Then game games Like WoW and the like that I could log on and actually accomplish things with maybe an hour or so to play, I didn't have to sit and wait like XI forced me to, I could get stuck right in from the moment I logged on, not sitting in town hoping a white mage would log on so I could finally round out my party just to get my next level, no I could do that on my own or with a group if I liked...

XI was great when I first played it, the trouble is I and the average gamer has moved on since the time when those kind of mechanics were actually truly viable, and now I want something I can play when I WANT to play it, not when it will LET ME play it.

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So the trouble seems to be people read: "This mechanic/type of content would work well in XIV" and somehow ignore that when it's suggested they mean to change it to fit XIV...then again, you can even strictly say and suggest how it could work in XIV better than it did in XI and people still assume you're saying directly port it lol.

I mean logically when people say "Content like Limbus" they're talking about buying a key item from an NPC for x gil, going to the location, activate the raid, do the content, get the rewards for that run, rinse and repeat without the 3 day wait period.

While JP midnight/2-4 day lockout on content helped keep the content alive because you can schedule like 5 raids in Linkshells throughout the week, it also prevented people from doing content they wanted due to a lockout timer. XIV clearly isn't doing that, at best you have to wait 5 - 15 minutes, which logically means that if Limbus was recreated for XIV you'd have a 5 - 15 minute cooldown, not a 3 day timer lol.

To complement Pandastirfry's post, i'm not even asking for the FINAL time to be lessened. Heck, one could engineer a quest that takes 24 hours of actual work in order to get an NM to spawn, that'd be far more fun than an NM that only spawns once every 24 hours.

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Originally Posted by Elexia

So the trouble seems to be people read: "This mechanic/type of content would work well in XIV" and somehow ignore that when it's suggested they mean to change it to fit XIV...then again, you can even strictly say and suggest how it could work in XIV better than it did in XI and people still assume you're saying directly port it lol.

I mean logically when people say "Content like Limbus" they're talking about buying a key item from an NPC for x gil, going to the location, activate the raid, do the content, get the rewards for that run, rinse and repeat without the 3 day wait period.

While JP midnight/2-4 day lockout on content helped keep the content alive because you can schedule like 5 raids in Linkshells throughout the week, it also prevented people from doing content they wanted due to a lockout timer. XIV clearly isn't doing that, at best you have to wait 5 - 15 minutes, which logically means that if Limbus was recreated for XIV you'd have a 5 - 15 minute cooldown, not a 3 day timer lol.

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I do believe that what most of the XI-haters have deep inside them is a fear that yes, they WILL bring in all that nonsensical waiting rather than the actual content proper. I do have faith in the dev team, though, and i'm not against bringing back anything that actually worked in XI, as long as, you know, what you said happens.

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XI was great when I first played it, the trouble is I and the average gamer has moved on since the time when those kind of mechanics were actually truly viable, and now I want something I can play when I WANT to play it, not when it will LET ME play it.

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This is it in a but shell. Just because an MMO is accessible doesn't mean it has to rain loot just because a player logged on.

Things like Einherjar or Campaign are a perfect example of what XIV should have. Accessible content that can be done on a player's own schedule that allows them to slowly build toward their reward.

No more RNGs or event lock out cool downs. Just let us play and work toward something without praying to the invisible dice gods.

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Originally Posted by Skies

To complement Pandastirfry's post, i'm not even asking for the FINAL time to be lessened. Heck, one could engineer a quest that takes 24 hours of actual work in order to get an NM to spawn, that'd be far more fun than an NM that only spawns once every 24 hours.

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Which in FFXI was only HNMs, which are spawnable and the ToAU Beastmen Kings, which you have almost zero reason to kill these days unless you're doing Mythic Weapons which almost everyone agrees is done horribly compared to Relics or Empyreans.

XIV as Elexia stated, already has respawn and cooldown rates of 3 -15 minutes -- why would it be assumed 24-48 hour respawns would be reimplemented?

Yeah.
I don't think you have to worry about grind and time sinks too much in this game. Where the mass of the quests last little more than 30 minutes.

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Originally Posted by Sephrick

This is it in a but shell. Just because an MMO is accessible doesn't mean it has to rain loot just because a player logged on.

Things like Einherjar or Campaign are a perfect example of what XIV should have. Accessible content that can be done on a player's own schedule that allows them to slowly build toward their reward.

No more RNGs or event lock out cool downs. Just let us play and work toward something without praying to the invisible dice gods.

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Exactly. Campaign, (which is more than likely Hamlet Defense), Einherjar, Abyssea, Voidwatch (without the loot system), Walk of Echos (without the loot system) and Legion are perfect styles of content for XIV because they scale from soloable (Campaign at high levels, Campaign Ops as varying levels) to lowman - large man content -- perfect for what XIV is trying to do with "light" and "full" party content.

"I mean logically when people say "Content like Limbus" they're talking about buying a key item from an NPC for x gil, going to the location, activate the raid, do the content, get the rewards for that run, rinse and repeat without the 3 day wait period."

So...like, Ifrit and Moogle key items and the fights attached to same...that XIV already has...so what exactly are you asking for if this is what you want added to XIV from XI? I mean really this requests sounds like you are completely ignoring the Primal battles, Tot-Rak, Darkhold, and Strongholds because there isn't a ridiculous barrier to entry

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Originally Posted by Jennestia

Which in FFXI was only HNMs, which are spawnable and the ToAU Beastmen Kings, which you have almost zero reason to kill these days unless you're doing Mythic Weapons which almost everyone agrees is done horribly compared to Relics or Empyreans.

XIV as Elexia stated, already has respawn and cooldown rates of 3 -15 minutes -- why would it be assumed 24-48 hour respawns would be reimplemented?

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No reason at all! That's now how a 'traumatized' person sees it, though. Imagine that as a knee-jerk reaction, really.

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Originally Posted by Pandastirfry

"I mean logically when people say "Content like Limbus" they're talking about buying a key item from an NPC for x gil, going to the location, activate the raid, do the content, get the rewards for that run, rinse and repeat without the 3 day wait period."

So...like, Ifrit and Moogle key items and the fights attached to same...that XIV already has...so what exactly are you asking for if this is what you want added to XIV from XI?

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If you don't know what limbus is:

You buy your key item
You fight an NM for the 2nd key item
You go to a zone with a segmented dungeons, each dungeon resulting in a different final reward (Different colored chip.) ontop of the loot you get while fighting (coins, AF1+1 items)
Return to city, trade in coins for items and gear.
Repeat till you do all dungeon paths till you get a full popset
Go to final dungeon site in either Apollyon or Temenos
Use your pop set to Spawn Omega or Ultima.
Hope for their organ drops to trade in for gear.

That's the gist of it, so the only similarity in XIV is getting key item and fighting, there's no dungeon crawl, there's no branching paths to take for different mob encounters etc. Even Ifrit was a lot less exciting than the XI version of traversing Ifrit's Cauldron (even though that did get annoying.)

Even Darkhold/Toto-Rak is barely similar, since there are different paths, they don't affect anything nor lead you to even more bosses, you got Ogre, Backattack and the Scorpions (which are all the same generally.)..no greater boss to come from doing the dungeons multiple times.

I think its funny when someone mentions FFXI they instantly relate it to "timesyncs"(which every game has it.... EVER).

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Originally Posted by Skies

No reason at all! That's now how a 'traumatized' person sees it, though. Imagine that as a knee-jerk reaction, really.

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Nah, mostly because their lootables weren't updated for caps 80-99, so you realistically only want to kill them because you never did before or had the chance to back in the day or for the Abyssea Atma that's pretty great for DRGs (Wyvern HP+.) lol, but that's the only thing they changed about it...hell I duo'd Fafnir on my Dancer with a Paladin (coulda solo'd it really) just because it's so easy now.

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Originally Posted by Rokien

I think its funny when someone mentions FFXI they instantly relate it to "timesyncs"(which every game has it.... EVER).

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Every MMO does have a timesink or else your MMO will last only a day -- Developers are just hiding it better, it was obvious in XI because of real life day lockouts.

don't forget none of that is a cheapsy 8man run it's pretty much full linkshell, even limbus our linkshell was doing 2 full runs each run then split the coins and end up with faster omega fights. though i think of when using the words sky sea dynamisis i mostly think of the number of players and on top of that the content in it. but in no way do i word it like that cause i want excactly the same or even close to it. just in how it works, the number of players and difficulty. i dont' want the waiting around either.

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Originally Posted by Rokien

I think its funny when someone mentions FFXI they instantly relate it to "timesyncs"(which every game has it.... EVER).

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XI abused the concept though.

Most other games at least try to disguise the fact or make the time sinks themselves entertaining.

Like spending 15 minutes waiting for/riding an airship. Or shrugging your shoulders and saying "oh well, maybe that NM I need will pop during my prime time in a couple weeks."

It was never ending with XI between the event cool down and RNG loot system there was never a sense of progress.

Sound EXACTLY the same to, just different amounts of players involved and less filler

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Originally Posted by Pandastirfry

Sound EXACTLY the same to, just different amounts of players involved and less filler

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Based on that..no not really -- You don't do Toto-Rak multiple times in order to progress to fight Omega and Ultima for example, nor do you do different wings of Darkhold in order to fight Odin for example -- they have very little similarities and they're designed more as quick content rather than long term content.

So in otherwords, what the "like XI but..." crowd wants is things they have already said they are going to add in 2.0, but you you want it NOW!

And you accuse the other camp of wanting instant gratification...

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Originally Posted by Pandastirfry

So in otherwords, what the "like XI but..." crowd wants is things they have already said they are going to add in 2.0, but you you want it NOW!

And you accuse the other camp of wanting instant gratification...

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I give you props for trying to spin it in a direction you know isn't even what's being stated. They actually didn't state that any content like that would be coming for 2.0, we know absolutely zero about Crystal Tower for example.

I'm spinning nothing, all i'm seeing is complaints that large group content ( confirmed for 2.0) isn't out NOW and that similar but not exact to the letter copies are not good enough.

Basically what I'm seeing is the standard wailing and gnashing of teeth because the patches haven't been full on expansions and people's pet "likes" aren't in the game... Yet.

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Originally Posted by Elexia

I give you props for trying to spin it in a direction you know isn't even what's being stated. They actually didn't state that any content like that would be coming for 2.0, we know absolutely zero about Crystal Tower for example.

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like i said in other thread bout ffxi, crystal towers is the only thing that gives me hope in ffxiv. knowing that there is what they used to term it "Large scale pve" coming after 2.0 probably the only reason i am waiting with fingers crossed. don't know a thing about it but it's going to be the thing that decides me leaving for good or staying. and for sure it needs to be more like ffxi content, if it's anything less then gw2, tera, diablo3, swtor expansions if they have any, dark millinium, and who knows what other mmo's will be announced by 2.0 launch. i'll go to those instead. least a new mmo launch is little closer to lots of content then staying around waiting for content every couple of months and not feeling content in doing it.

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Originally Posted by Pandastirfry

I'm spinning nothing, all i'm seeing is complaints that large group content ( confirmed for 2.0) isn't out NOW and that similar but not exact to the letter copies are not good enough.

Basically what I'm seeing is the standard wailing and gnashing of teeth because the patches haven't been full on expansions and people's pet "likes" aren't in the game... Yet.

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Alright, I'm assuming you've never played FFXI before.

http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Limbus

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Originally Posted by weeble

like i said in other thread bout ffxi, crystal towers is the only thing that gives me hope in ffxiv. knowing that there is what they used to term it "Large scale pve" coming after 2.0 probably the only reason i am waiting with fingers crossed. don't know a thing about it but it's going to be the thing that decides me leaving for good or staying. and for sure it needs to be more like ffxi content, if it's anything less then gw2, tera, diablo3, swtor expansions if they have any, dark millinium, and who knows what other mmo's will be announced by 2.0 launch. i'll go to those instead. least a new mmo launch is little closer to lots of content then staying around waiting for content every couple of months and not feeling content in doing it.

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Yeah, I really hope it's somewhat reminenscent of FFIII's or Ultimecia's castle.

no one here is talking about now, they are talking bout the future and direction the mmo needs to go. we all understand the time line and we understand nothing good can truely come till after 2.0

I played XI, I just never played limbus because I quit due to terrible mechanics, "wait and play on our schedule" grindy time sink maqerading as content barriers to entry and the afore mentioned real job before limbus was added

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Originally Posted by Pandastirfry

I played XI, I just never played limbus because I quit due to terrible mechanics, "wait and play on our schedule" grindy time sink maqerading as content barriers to entry and the afore mentioned real job before limbus was added

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you didn't really wait, you usually show up at a specific time ...only diff is you did it with many players. even other mmo's you still do things at specific times. only diff is only 6players are doing it rather then everyone. really it doesn't remove any of the problems you mention ..it just changes the player who gets pushed to the side lines instead.

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Originally Posted by Rokien

Why do people say no to anything FFXI? Doesn't make sense seeing this chart......... http://static.finalfantasyxiv.com/pl...36kgy8gt57.jpg

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whats this a chart of? how many people played ffxi? how long they played it? people say no to archaic elements in ffxi, or having played for an extended period of years would like something new that isnt ffxi.

ffxi is still there, you can buy it and subscribe even! we want the next generation of final fantasy online. bring what was good. but REALLY try to take it to the next level. Frankly I think guildwars2 has this one in the bag ]=

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Originally Posted by Mushy

whats this a chart of? how many people played ffxi? how long they played it? people say no to archaic elements in ffxi, or having played for an extended period of years would like something new that isnt ffxi.

ffxi is still there, you can buy it and subscribe even! we want the next generation of final fantasy online. bring what was good. but REALLY try to take it to the next level. Frankly I think guildwars2 has this one in the bag ]=

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i'm thinking the same with the gw2, i fully expected launch of this game with campaign battle type grinds and content right from the get go since ffxi ended with an expansion with it.(15man grinds like crab parties were very close to it till they took them out though, loved those) it has everything i want from a mmo in it that i can see except one thing though.(and one of the most important) i doubt it will have large scale pve ...my bed 6 or 12 will be tops. i really love large scale, but but all the public quests are large scale, least they will be for the first year when servers are pact. after that they will probably be empty just like warhammers public quests.

also they dont' have a main healer .....i can't stress how much i love this for a game with pvp. i love healer classes but i hate them in pvp games. and so gw2 pvp will probably be the one pvp mmo that i will enjoy playing.

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Originally Posted by weeble

i'm thinking the same with the gw2, i fully expected launch of this game with campaign battle type grinds and content right from the get go since ffxi ended with an expansion with it.(15man grinds like crab parties were very close to it till they took them out though, loved those) it has everything i want from a mmo in it that i can see except one thing though.(and one of the most important) i doubt it will have large scale pve ...my bed 6 or 12 will be tops. i really love large scale, but but all the public quests are large scale, least they will be for the first year when servers are pact. after that they will probably be empty just like warhammers public quests.

also they dont' have a main healer .....i can't stress how much i love this for a game with pvp. i love healer classes but i hate them in pvp games. and so gw2 pvp will probably be the one pvp mmo that i will enjoy playing.

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For the current server failings of ffxiv, i think maybe at one point SE tried to make dynamic events, with GMs; but i hope they are able to add these things where random events happen in the world to make it seem more alive. right now its still the original setup. you got z mob at x,y coordinates. and thats all that area will ever be

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Originally Posted by Rokien

Why do people say no to anything FFXI? Doesn't make sense seeing this chart......... http://static.finalfantasyxiv.com/pl...36kgy8gt57.jpg

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Wait, what question was this chart asking? I find it very difficult to believe that there are more FFXI players in NA than WoW players.

I don't see this as a reliable representation. Where is this poll from, how many people were surveyed, when was this poll taken, and *WHO* was surveyed?

I'm not bashing XI, and I definitely do not like WoW, but I am suspicious.

Here are some sources:
There are others, but I do not think that worldwide, XI is more popular than WoW.


http://www.brighthub.com/video-games...les/35992.aspx
http://kotaku.com/356297/how-world-o...up-to-the-rest

In rankings FFXI was a lot higher than WoW for a bit (then over the years WoW in general dropped in ranking, it may have x million accounts but that really means nothing when people are bored of your game) -- That survey was targeting people who played SE games/MMOs/Other games but was given to the FF community which obviously played FFXI more so than they played WoW.

IDK, I was quite happy with 11 till they dumbed down the game beyond Casual and made the Add-ons you HAD to buy in order to acquire the AF3 gear due to Abyssea zones.

After that I just stopped caring for the game. While yea addons etc is great, I feel alienating someone from being able to acquire class Specific gear and forcing them to buy the addon's pretty unfair treatment to something that should have IMO been a series of quests like the first AF Gear set. But Saying that i'm sure will have people rage at me over it.

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Originally Posted by Jennestia

In rankings FFXI was a lot higher than WoW for a bit (then over the years WoW in general dropped in ranking, it may have x million accounts but that really means nothing when people are bored of your game) -- That survey was targeting people who played SE games/MMOs/Other games but was given to the FF community which obviously played FFXI more so than they played WoW.

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What was the question being asked?

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Originally Posted by Rokien

Why do people say no to anything FFXI? Doesn't make sense seeing this chart......... http://static.finalfantasyxiv.com/pl...36kgy8gt57.jpg

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Why do people say no... That is a good question but the answer well it is not so easy to come by. Why is it so hard to answer? Oh that's an easy one!! It is because everyone has a different reason for why they say no... from the really long drawn out replies of this and that to the simply short because they don't want FFXI-2 to the really really short of simply no because well no.

Some say I don't understand many people here came from FFXI so why? Which is sort of easy to see when you think about you humans and how you do things... when the next thing comes around it must be different and it must not have anything from the old game at least as far as they can see. I believe that is why in some other thread I said that instead of saying why don't they bring X from FFXI? to instead take what X is and change it to something that could fit in FFXIV and do it creatively to where people can not instantly look back at FFXI and go hey it came from here...

Anyways I probably put more down then I needed to... oh well that's just how it goes I guess.

The cat is bemused =-.-=

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Originally Posted by Macha

What was the question being asked?

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If I recall it was just the basic question from the survey they had here, i.e "Which MMOs do you play" -- I think it was on the first player survey. The FFXI/XIV player base at the time were likely the ones who played XI much more than WoW at the time due to Heroes of Abyssea.

Ok, so it was asked of people who predominantly play SqEnix MMOs, and not MMO Players in general, right?

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Originally Posted by Jennestia

If I recall it was just the basic question from the survey they had here, i.e "Which MMOs do you play" -- I think it was on the first player survey. The FFXI/XIV player base at the time were likely the ones who played XI much more than WoW at the time due to Heroes of Abyssea.

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And therefore not a true representation of the potential player base....
It was just a nice question to ask and nothing more
17% of your current player base (at the time) also played FFXI
The target PS3 audience potentially (and hopefully) eclipses your current (at that time... and honestly even more so today) player base by quite a bit.
So this poll does not tell us if the potentially game saving player base that is PS3 has played FFXI... or feel one way or another about any of the changes that have come.
If anyone in here says they know without a doubt what the PS3 community at large wants out of this game without having researched market trends, compiled large amounts of data and put together a variety of focus groups, then you are a pretentious tool (Not directed at you Jennestia).
I know what I would like... But then I like cottage cheese mixed with chocolate Ice Cream... None of us speaks for the whole.
Not one person here was voted PS3 possible MMO enthusiast spokesperson
The point: who knows what will be most important to players come 2.0?
Yoshi believes he has a good idea... I would say "Let's sit back and see if he is right" but I don't have to say it... because the truth is... you don't really have a choice