Throwing the tome: 4.2 Summoner Feedback

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Originally Posted by Sunako

Would it be better if you could not use aetherflow outside combat like what they did for warrior infuriate so you would not need waste first dreadwyrm stance?

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At that point they may as well just make it passive generation, at once per 20 seconds, with progress paused during DWT.

Though I've no idea why you'd want that. It'd take a huge network of reworks such that you're allowing your pet to cast (what allows you to cast (what allows your pet to cast)) what allows you to proc an Aetherflow stack such that passive generation feels at all rewarding or cohesive.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

At that point they may as well just make it passive generation, at once per 20 seconds, with progress paused during DWT.

Though I've no idea why you'd want that. It'd take a huge network of reworks such that you're allowing your pet to cast (what allows you to cast (what allows your pet to cast)) what allows you to proc an Aetherflow stack such that passive generation feels at all rewarding or cohesive.

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Lol I did not say I want that. I just ask if rotatio would be smoother that way. I can play current summoner without any issues.

I main sch but I cannot stress the need for decoupling pet group buffs from the pet's GCD queueing system or at least offering a /pac clearqueue_and_execute_the_next_command for macro use.

I'm so.. so.. SO.. SO... SOOOOOO tired of hitting a whispering dawn macro and having the thing go off 15 seconds later (literally).

There used to be "tricks" you could use to clear the queue like add a half dozen pet stance changes but that apparently no longer works so it's just legacy garbage.

This has been going on since ARR, but now the pace of combat is so rapid it cannot be ignored any longer.

As for the rest of the feedback: I really LOVE summoner casting archetypes no matter the game, but the lack of cohesion and keyboard mozart rotation has really turned me off of SMN.

Smn really needs work to make its play flow better. A rotation that differs between 3 phases is actually pretty neat, but the contention and sheer number of hotbar items required to transition in the current setup is arduous.

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Originally Posted by plasmacutter

I'm so.. so.. SO.. SO... SOOOOOO tired of hitting a whispering dawn macro and having the thing go off 15 seconds later (literally).

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well since macros for player skills sucks 99% of the time as well... why would anyone use them for pet skills at all? They are already less responsive without an extra macro-cutdown q.q

Do you think smn pet will do better if they give them a gambit system like ff12 in which can be customized by player?

If they just made all pet abilities instant without silly cast times, they would be a lot more responsive. The cast time adds nothing to the system and only serves to prevent any abilities queues.

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Originally Posted by Kitfox

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All SMN pet actions are insta-cast and only have recast timers. The only pets that have actual casting time are Garuda base attacks and ACN pet, though even then it's only one or two actions. SCH fairy has casting time on Embrace and Whispering Dawn but that's for obvious reasons.

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Originally Posted by Kurando

All SMN pet actions are insta-cast and only have recast timers. The only pets that have actual casting time are Garuda base attacks and ACN pet, though even then it's only one or two actions. SCH fairy has casting time on Embrace and Whispering Dawn but that's for obvious reasons.

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And which ones did you think I meant? ._. Instant Wind Blade would be so good for Contagion consistency, not to mention every single SCH cursing Eos abilities since the launch of game.

I've spoken about this before, but I'll pop in another thread.

The problems with SMN are as follows:
- 1) Aetherflow Lockouts should have never been a thing.
- 2) Bahamut and DWT should have been integrated into the same cooldown in the first place.
- 3) Pets should not have utility cooldowns. We should get utility based on pets and empower their abilities until the system is fixed.

Most of their new abilities and buffs they got are patches to problems that the above introduced.


Here's what I'd do to fix it:

Phase 1 [Restore HW functionality]:
1) Remove the Aetherflow Lockouts. Allow Aetherflow and DWT to work together. This is an amazing buff and QoL improvement.
2) Change DWT into Summon: Bahamut at 2 Dread Wyrm Aether stacks. Because of this, we only get 1 bahamut every 3 DWT, which is a heavy nerf in of itself and should more than counteract 1.
3) Make Bahamut use Akh Morn when you use Enkindle. Akh Morn is no longer a separate ability.
4) Bahamut only procs Wyrm Wave on spells. Aetherflow Abilities and Addle no longer proc it. Due to this, increase spell/attack speed while under the effect of Summon: Bahamut in addition to DWT's other effects.
5) Remove the cooldown reset on Tri-Disaster. Reduce its cooldown to 30s, and only make it available during DWT. This is a minor nerf and a lockout that actually makes sense.
6) Only make Ruin III/IV available during DWT/Summon: Bahamut. IV now replaces II during that phase. Nerf II back to 80 potency and buff III to 170 potency and remove the instant cast to encourage staying still even more. You'll clip during 60 content but at 70 it won't be worth it anymore.

Phase 2 [Fix our kit till we can fix pets]:
4) Remove the Phys Vul up from Ifrit's Radiant Shield and rework Contagion to be a single target DoT.
5) Remove Ruination on Tri-disaster. Make it apply an effect based on the pet that's out for the same duration. Magic Vul Up for Garuda, Phys Vul Up for Ifrit, Damage Down for Titan, and Vul Up for Bahamut. Make the Magic Vul up stronger to account for magic/phys damage disparity in the average comp but the universal Vul Up should be weaker than it or the Phys Vul Up. Something like 15/8/5. Apply the pet-based debuff before the DoTs in priority so they get the full benefit.
6) Enkindle Proc removed. Enhanced Enkindle now reduces Enkindle's cooldown to 60s at 68.
7) Ruin IV Proc reworked to grant III/IV outside of DWT. Procs are not consumed during DWT and can stack up to 3-5 times.
8) Consider allowing Bahamut to trigger Ruin IV's proc. Definitely make him stationary and attack your primary target regardless of distance from him.

Phase 3 [AoE]:
1) Revert the 4.0 Bane Nerf.
2) Remove Tri-Bind's potency buff. Keep the Mana Cost reduction but reduce Tri-Bind's Mana Cost outside of DWT.

And for anyone wondering, you can time your pet ability usage during Wind Blade/Embrace to ensure what you want goes off next. They appear to auto pick their commands based on 1s timers sorta like macros, with manual commands taking a second to override. Right after Wind Blade's Cast and halfway through Embrace's Cast seems to be the best time to punch in a command. At least that's how I've gotten it to work consistently.

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Originally Posted by Kitfox

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Well declaring that "all pet abilities" should be instant suggests you thought many actually were not *shrugs*. To be honest Contagion isn't there just to boost your pet's damage, yes it benefits from it but yourself and the party get so much more out of it. What you suggest it like asking RDM to have all insta-casts after using Embolden because it benefits from increased Magic damage, that would be silly. Timing a rotation would easily take advantage of Contagion, perhaps it could do with an extra sec or two but otherwise it works. Though just like a couple of the Eos skills they are abilities and not spells, thus they have to balanced in someway to prevent constant uptime.

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Originally Posted by Kurando

...To be honest Contagion isn't there just to boost your pet's damage, yes it benefits from it but yourself and the party get so much more out of it. What you suggest it like asking RDM to have all insta-casts after using Embolden because it benefits from increased Magic damage, that would be silly. ... Though just like a couple of the Eos skills they are abilities and not spells, thus they have to balanced in someway to prevent constant uptime.

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Exactly, Contagion is a raid buff, that's why it shouldn't be so inconsistent with the timing that you can end up delaying it up to 15 seconds because of missing the small window when your pet actually takes commands. Ifrit has an instant basic attack, which makes him and his abilities much more responsive to use, because he doesn't have a long dead time when no commands are accepted. All pets should work similarly. Either that or make sure that all pet commands queue properly regardless of what the pet is doing at the given time.

Your RDM example misses the mark. The problem with Contagion is more akin to Embolden not going off 70% of the time because of arbitrary reasons.

If the pet skills are instant, it doesn't mean they shouldn't have a recast timer. I don't know what you're on about with the Eos example.

Most probably he meant that 100% uptime pet exploit back in HW - the time Eos became way more popular than Selene was used to be. U were simply able to cancel pet cds with resummoning them - to extend or reuse petbuffs immiditly.

Schs were so strong with Eos buffs that they were able to main/soloheal nearly every content using that exploit with good mp management

Honestly I keep both Garuda and Ifrit on Sic because I must being viewing their buffs differently. They are there to buff the party, not myself.
SCH do have it worse though because Eos's has some nice healing buff when used in conjunction with SCH's healing.

I do wish they would swap Garuda movement AI. I need Garuda to follow me around for Devotion buff.

P.S. I can't end this thread without laughing at DoTs are worthless. They make up 1/5 to 1/4 the SMN dps.

As someone whos played SMN since 2.0.....LEAVE IT ALONE

No its not perfect, no class truly is.

I suffered through the class from its worst days till now. While tweaks would be nice, when you nail your timing on SMN it feels like a dream. It does not need the complete overhaul you seem to think it does. (Though I would prefer them unnerfing the AOE's they just nerfed) The only thing that does, are the pets, which really have been an issue since 2.0. But they wont change them now. They clearly don't see an issue with them, even with Bahamut that freaks when you moves. I main SMN as DPS and love the class.

Arcanist pets have always clunky, especially ones with cast times. There is not much you can do if the pet's main action queue has a cast time such as Wind Blade or Embrace. The pet AI will always queue Embrace/Wind Blade so you have to spam the move several time in succession before it goes off. If you have high latency, the pet responsiveness can feel worse due to net-code rollbacks.

Steady/Guard macros can work with instant cast pet abilities and many good Scholars use them, but they can be a DPS loss for Summoner since you are interrupting Wind Blade (if using Garuda). Avoid using Steady/Guard macros for pet actions with cast times like Whispering Dawn.

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Originally Posted by Dyvid

Honestly I keep both Garuda and Ifrit on Sic because I must being viewing their buffs differently. They are there to buff the party, not myself.

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Garuda's Contagion is a magic vuln buff, and although they buff the party, it mostly buffs the Summoner due to most players not being able to make use of it beyond the healer(s) or the SMN themselves... or a potential RDM or BLM. That said, the two abilities have different timers, so it's not a big deal to switch between Ifrit and Garuda for full coverage. Just a minor nitpick.

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Originally Posted by Dyvid

I do wish they would swap Garuda movement AI. I need Garuda to follow me around for Devotion buff.

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If only Garuda could move and cast though.

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Originally Posted by Dyvid

P.S. I can't end this thread without laughing at DoTs are worthless. They make up 1/5 to 1/4 the SMN dps.

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And that's part of why I thought the OP was absurd at first/

For the last time, learn to read. He did not say they don't do a big chunk of our damage, he said those 20% could be given back in ruin potency, we wouldn't even see it because of how little we INTERACT with our dots. Fester and that's it, no more to the kit (I don't want to hear the name bane since SB launch :D)

Coming off a bit harsh but starting to get annoying

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Originally Posted by Karshan

For the last time, learn to read. He did not say they don't do a big chunk of our damage, he said those 20% could be given back in ruin potency, we wouldn't even see it because of how little we INTERACT with our dots. Fester and that's it, no more to the kit (I don't want to hear the name bane since SB launch :D)

Coming off a bit harsh but starting to get annoying

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You are right and wrong.

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DoTs have become so deemphasized since Stormblood they might as well not even exist. With the loss of Contagion, nothing in your boss kit interacts with any of your debuffs. With the change of Fester to always give Dreadwyrm Aether, they don't even matter to your basic gameplay rotation anymore. You could literally drop DoTs and go through your entire Trance and Bahamut rotation, unimpeded. It is nothing but invisible damage now.

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Italics for your interpretation's support and bold for mine and Dyvid's. If you could literally drop DoTs and go unimpeded, it would imply that Fester would still do its 300 potency on its target whether or not there's DoTs on the target or not. Of course, that would be a stupid idea, since Tri-Disaster applies those DoTs plus Ruination and you Fester using that.

Indeed. They don't matter to gameplay, only to DPS. You will lose 33 + 15 pps (Dots + Festers) which is tremendous, but your cycle is not affected anymore by not having them. Like at all. Well of course one change will be not using them, but you understand by no impact he means we still DWT, we still Bahamut, it’s just less damage (maybe not even less WW, gotta check just for the record if WW are triggered by a dotless fester).

He never said those 20% (+10% for fester let’s keep the full record) were nonexistent in the sense they are not 30% of our damage. What he meant is : well, no more c…ycle block.

While it does lower skill ceiling, it’s not at all the kind of limitations removal or simplification we asked for.

Still, 8 months in, got used to the wheel thing yet it STILL does feel clunky at times to not be able to hit AF whenever. It stresses me out to need kind of a checklist “ok can I enter DWT” or “ok can I Bahamut ?” every once in a while.

It’s maybe 10% of the time, but it’s 10% too many for a job that had once a prettier flow in HS. The 15 second timers were NEVER a problem in raids, only in dungeons between packs if your tank was a slug. You could hit AF, hit fester every 10 seconds, or 15, or wait 45 seconds, do 2 F 1 P in ten seconds enter trance and hit AF…

The window is reduced from 60 seconds for stacks expenditure then 15 seconds for trance activation to a 40 seconds window of stacks expenditure and DWT right after because if not you have to choose between shortening the trance or leaving AF on CD.
Plus changing DWT timing messes up with Dot clipping with the reset of TriD, so it’s impossible to lose uptime BUT changes everything to your reflexes about clipping and DOT optimization.

SB SMN feels ok on a dummy (sorta), but come to change your timings because of the fight and boy it becomes a messy control tower.

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Originally Posted by Karshan

For the last time, learn to read....

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same goes for you I guess - I read more than once the word "worthless" out of his mouth... x'D

He does use the word “worthless”. I stand my ground: he is discussing value, not valueS

Without any offense intended (you used a smiley so maybe you were nice), the concept of reading also covers understanding a message, not just deciphering letters.

What he says:
• DoTs have become so deemphasized since Stormblood they might as well not even exist. With the loss of Contagion, nothing in your boss kit interacts with any of your debuffs.

Here he develops what he means in his first sentence: they don’t exist in regard of your kit. I’d correct with almost don’t interact, but still.
He doesn’t give a crap they do 20% of the damage because
1 – he knows
2 – it’s not what he tackles.

So people stopping at the first sentence are those I’m talking to. As I acknowledged in my post a bit harshly but the number of comments not understanding his point was getting annoying.
Plus looking at the logs I think OP knows SMN a bit better than some calling him out “you silly I laughed at Dots you know they do 1/5 of the damage”. Just my 2 cents: he knows what they do damage wise, and even probably uses them better.

• With the change of Fester to always give Dreadwyrm Aether, they don't even matter to your basic gameplay rotation anymore.

And indeed, the fact fester deals no damage if dotless, or the facts Dots contribute a lot to damage, has nothing to do with gameplay (value), only DPS (valueS)

• You could literally drop DoTs and go through your entire Trance and Bahamut rotation, unimpeded. It is nothing but invisible damage now.

And I have to say : invisible does not mean non existent. Dots are 33 pps, fester 15 pps, just put the 48 pps back on other skills. Now has your rotation changed (except not applying them) ? No ? Then they are irrelevant gameplay wise. Only relevant damage wise.

• Even if you removed the debuffs from Tri-Disaster, it wouldn't affect how you cast the ogcd. You'd still use it in the same place in your rotation, every time. That's how utterly meaningless the DoTs have become.

To further illustrate what he meant by non-impactful gameplay wise.

So he actually kinda goes in detail about what he means by worthless. He means worthless of value, not worthless on valueS

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Originally Posted by Dyvid

Honestly I keep both Garuda and Ifrit on Sic because I must being viewing their buffs differently. They are there to buff the party, not myself.

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this is sadly soooo "new age smn"... meant sb-mentality, meant frustrating to read. while the raise of sicfrit is unquestionably – wth should one use Ruda on sic as well? I personally always cry if con is not ready on TA or Bahamut-Burst itself... not to mention how annoying Rudas Pushback in dngs (or bossmobs) is... Schs micro-managing on the otherhand is way more relaxing than controlling egis, what exactly is even "worse" with fairys in your opinion?

Or are you just not used to micromanaging at all? : o

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Originally Posted by silverlunarfox

As someone whos played SMN since 2.0.....LEAVE IT ALONE

No its not perfect, no class truly is.

I suffered through the class from its worst days till now. While tweaks would be nice, when you nail your timing on SMN it feels like a dream. It does not need the complete overhaul you seem to think it does. (Though I would prefer them unnerfing the AOE's they just nerfed) The only thing that does, are the pets, which really have been an issue since 2.0. But they wont change them now. They clearly don't see an issue with them, even with Bahamut that freaks when you moves. I main SMN as DPS and love the class.

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word & welcome to the club :3

personal I would rather get m2 back than the old aoe-pot values but thats just a minor subjective preference - else im all the way with your statement <3

Sicruda actually has better timings for Contagion cycles than trying to perform it on obey with manual input. All you have to do is sync up when the first Contagion is meant to land and watch as every subsequent Contagion happens within 60-62 seconds.

It's not a case of not being able to micro. Garuda's pet AI combined with Wind Blade having a cast time is a huge enough ??? factor and a pain to deal with. Imagine having to mash contagion over 30 times only for it to finally perform the action 10+ seconds later than when you wished for it.

Now for the pet swap opener I have a trick that makes the initial contagion seamless enough to avoid pet AI delays while also baiting out a proc. But for mono Garuda use, you can still perform the same trick and just sic during the wind blade before your desired raid buff window. Then it's just a case of being mindful with further applications and the current raid fight in question.

sic buffs just line up if you play a perfect timed and known fight - ruda on sic in progress or dngs is just lazy and there is no argument for a theoretical sic-cycle however. I personally have no big problems with contagion "clunkiness" - sometimes I have to press it twice well but cmn 30 times? you are overdrama the technical issues here. If people realize that pet skills aren't chainable and are delayed by animations/movement - you can simply get used to when and how petskills work probably.

In dungeons it is lazy, I don't disagree there. In prog however it's still perfectly viable just to minimise Contagion drift and keep things more consistent.

Try playing from Germany on a DC that's not Chaos and tell me there's no problems in trying to resolve actions with much higher latency. It's not an overdramatisation when it's reality for players on DCs they are not local to.

now why should I play on a different data center at all? but I get what u are up to... just saying that many smns didn't even know why they handle things the way they do. Giving newbies advices to ditch eirenes core bible "cause its outdated" or saying "set ruda to sic for better numbers" without any background is just producing more lemmings on this cls... there are enough smn out there who use sicfrit in magic comps cause they actually are damn lazy or just didn't know how to handle ruda cause they never learned pet basics at all. -> so I know wtj on powerful cls' most probably don't mind design/mechanics and all that stuff at all as long they provide big numbers... and move on to the next "overpowered" cls next tier. But job guides shouldn't primary be done for those kind of gamer but for those who are really interesting in the cls cause of lore/playstyle and not because the cls got a "good" tier this time...

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Originally Posted by Neela

now why should I play on a different data center at all?

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So you can see the problems real players experience beyond your own microcosm with low ping to Frankfurt.

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Originally Posted by Neela

but I get what u are up to... just saying that many smns didn't even know why they handle things the way they do. Giving newbies advices to ditch eirenes core bible "cause its outdated" or saying "set ruda to sic for better numbers" without any background is just producing more lemmings on this cls... snip

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I don't think you get me at all. Else you'd know what I've done when it comes to theorycrafting for the game and for SMNs. You'd know the extents of efforts I go through for the betterment of the game and its players especially raising awareness and understanding regarding more correct plays for the job. But carry on casting assumptions by all means.

I am usually swapping between sic and obey. I am using manually skills only if I want save contagion or radiant shield for the next phase after downtime. I think it is pretty smooth that way.

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Originally Posted by Sunako

I am usually swapping between sic and obey. I am using manually skills only if I want save contagion or radiant shield for the next phase after downtime. I think it is pretty smooth that way.

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That's definitely one of the better compromises and the one generally recommended. Blind sic use will just waste Radiant Shield during boss transitions/jumps while also missing more valuable reflect windows, sometimes for Contagion it'll pop the next use right before a boss jumps wasting it entirely.

There is also a subtle dps loss cost to sic which isn't entirely obvious, where the AI routine for it results in lost Wind Blades and Burning Strikes. Which is why ultimately Obey is "best" for pet damage. But for raid alignment with Garuda's Contagion, Obey desync is a real problem. It's also a consideration few will need to worry about unless they are running multiple casters.

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Originally Posted by Nemekh

I don't think you get me at all. Else you'd know what I've done when it comes to theorycrafting for the game and for SMNs. You'd know the extents of efforts I go through for the betterment of the game and its players especially raising awareness and understanding regarding more correct plays for the job. But carry on casting assumptions by all means.

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well that was mostly linked to the DC point.

I never questioned you as a theorycrafter how should I? I didn't even know you so no way im doing that. I just can judge your advices in this topic and for that I would do it differently if I would call me a "cls mentor" myself – thats all. its not that I said you are completely wrong tho... just that newbies need more basic informations than highend recommendations they can learn but never understand in its core. see whats it all about?

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Originally Posted by Karshan

• You could literally drop DoTs and go through your entire Trance and Bahamut rotation, unimpeded. It is nothing but invisible damage now.

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Invisible dmg now? it's been invisible damage for years where have you been ? dots are smn's version of heavy thrust "press this button to stay viable" every job has one, and dots are smns, there is nothing more and nothing less to dots for smn.

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I'm quoting. Plus the guy who said that, expressed that it is ONLY that now, not that it was not before. Or do I need to explain further the sentence structure "it is nothing but" ?

You summon heavy thrust : it is exactly the same indeed. Invisible damage, no interaction what so ever with anything else in DRG's kit. In 3 words : extremely poor design. The fact bad design exists does not justify its existence. It's not like the laws of physics or something, it's a system made up by a handful of men, so it can be changed when ill designed, so we heve to call it out when it is.

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Originally Posted by Karshan

the concept of reading also covers understanding a message, not just deciphering letters.

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I really wish more people understood this, because it's basically just explaining the same thing over and over. Thank you for taking the time to elaborate.

Yes I am still here reading the feedback.

There's nothing wrong with SMN's dots. It's not invisible damage, it's Damage Over Time. It's a poison, it's supposed to be slow. That's the entire point. What is wrong is Tri-Disaster having a reset mechanic. That completely destroys the point of having Bio/Miasma in the first place. I'd much rather have Tri-Disaster locked to DWT and remove the reset mechanic so we at least have to hard cast them once every minute again. Having spells that you barely cast is fine, as long as they're a boost. That's the entire point of cooldowns to begin with. The problem is Tri-Disaster obviates the need to even use them, not that they're invisible damage. In HW you definitely noticed the damage they dealt to mobs with Bane.

HW Contagion's effect was useful but I'd argue it padded a problem the old DoTs had. Recasting them sucked, especially on multiple targets. It solved these issues cleanly at the time but the problem has since been fixed with SB's unification on their timers. It's no longer needed and it was an invisible DPS boost because of how it interacted with snapshotting DWT DoTs, as fun as it felt to stack.

As for making them more useful, I'd rather give pets a proc from SMN's DoTs than affect DWT. Something like a free crit when you crit, or reducing the cooldown on one of their abilities, with their kits getting retooled to take advantage of that. I agree that pets do need tweaking, and I'd rather kill two birds with one stone and increase the summoner/pet synergy if possible, but I'd rather work with what we have rather than hammer SE to fix them, as that is already on their priority list. Fester is a good enough reason to have them atm anyways, and there are more important things to do to DWT, like remove the Aetherflow lockouts, and combine Summon: Bahamut and it to consolidate buttons. The way it worked in HW was basically perfect (aside from the timer, which was awkward), but I agree that in its current state SMN would lack something to do outside of it with the lockouts removed. And that is the problem we need to solve atm.

So I'll ask: What do we want to do in-between DWT windows? Manage our pet? Ruin spam? DoT management? Prepare for the next DWT? That's what we should be talking about. In HW it was a combination of MP Management with Ruin III, Aethertrail management, and DoT reapplication, none of which individually was hard, nor did it demand a specific phase. At the moment, if you removed the lockouts, all we'd have is a Ruin IV proc. So suggest alternatives or additons to that. I, for one, would be for reducing Miasma III back to 24s. And maybe retool Rouse to be an ability that procs whenever your DoTs crit, which forces your next pet ability to crit when used. This alone would encourage the use of obey or watching the pet cast bar, as using a pet ability and Rouse in tandem would optimize damage without being overbearing. Of course, if this was done, it would have to be made into a job ability in order to keep the current Rouse for Scholars. Which I think would be fine.