Normal mode raids: please don’t settle on this loot system...

I would prefer if they have one type of token that will be put into your currency tab like tomes after completing the raid. That way you get something every time you complete it and can eventually turn it in for gear that you need/want.

I would also like to see neutral gear drop that all of us can role on. Meaning gear that you turn in for your specific class. The dev team did this once before for some of the level 50 dungeons like snow cloak. They dropped neutral gear that you turned in for i90 gear for your specific class.

I hate seeing my inventory get clogged up with tokens. All of these tokens should be placed in the currency tab.

I don't get how this system is convoluted, it also lets you rerun until you get the piece you want. Most mmos you can run it, see nothing, then your done. I do agree with the inventory cluitter

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

You need to get two gatherers to 70 and unlock the regional folklore books for them, which take 50 tokens from rowena, aka 2500 red scrips each. You also need to gear those gatherers pretty high, because under a certain amount your HQ chance for those node items becomes 0, making it much harder for your crafter friends to make the HQ ingredients needed to HQ a 4 star piece. And you need your crafter buds to have all crafts at 70, for a set of gear due to splitting it up among the differnt crafts.

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You're looking at this the wrong way - as if crafting was only released with this patch, when the reality is that any serious endgame crafter or gatherer (and when I say "Find a crafter friend" I mean someone whos already into crafting) has already done all of that. When the patch dropped all I had to do was grabbing the new mastercrafterbooks because I had half a year already to level and gear my crafters. We had about 2 or 3 months to get the ala mhigan gear and melds ready. Its nothing new and nothing that caught anyone by surprise. Nothing that just happend with this patch. I dont know how long you're playing but I was fully aware that I'd have all of 4.1 to prepare myself for 4.2.
You're looking at this, starting at zero - when in reality most people who are intrested in crafting/gathering wont start there.
Non-crafters and non-gatheres can also still supply their crafters with mats - bought with creation tomes. Get the ones for your gear and then the same amount again as payment for your crafter! Or ask them if they need/want anything that you can buy with GC-seals!
There are also low-level gathering items that are still useful for crafters and that dont require you to be a level 70-fully-melded-gatherer (for example: the current go-to raidfood, Crimson Cider, uses a lot of level 60-65 gathering mats). Just leveling one crafter and getting some HQ 290-non-melded gear should be more than enough to do weekly turn ins for Naago, earning you yellow scrips that you can spend on mats again... Dont make it so black and white with either its nothing at all or you've pentamelded the most recent gear.

...on the matter of folklore books: yeah, you need red scrips for them, but you're earning those already if you're smart and level from 60 to 70 by doing collectables. Tones of exp, no waste of leves and more than enough red scrips to buy the books, some cordials and exp-manuals.

You could also look at Sigma NM in the way off: To even get one piece of loot from there you need to level a character to 70, do all the story, do an additional quest, do Omega (I assume?), run the content and then win the piece of loot!

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Originally Posted by Vidu

When the patch dropped all I had to do was grabbing the new mastercrafterbooks because I had half a year already to level and gear my crafters. We had about 2 or 3 months to get the ala mhigan gear and melds ready. Its nothing new and nothing that caught anyone by surprise.

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Exactly this.

I don't raid anymore, and didn't ever want to lead a static in this game (spent 18 months creating and running an endgame LS in XI - that's more than enough for a lifetime), but if I did I wouldn't accept most of these excuses and just find a replacement. You have six or so months between release dates for Savage raids. If you can't put any sort of effort into acquiring money, materia and/or materials for 5+ months then I would be absolutely justified in doubting whether you'd actually put in your fair share of effort when it came time for progression. And now I've become a semi-elitist jerk that advocates for putting in work but still thinks the NM raid's loot system is 1) pretty bad and 2) rewards subpar gear so Q) isn't worth touching. Go figure!

And again if you're not doing Savage content, the i350/NM raid stuff doesn't really have any value besides glamour anyway.


Specifically with regards to gathering, since that's my role within a static/partnership context:
- HW Folklore books were awful to obtain. SB Folklore books are a joke. Unlike the crafter side, they just add the new items into the already existing books so you buy them once and don't worry about it again until next expansion.
- The most recent Folklore nodes (Nightsteel Ore, etc) don't require you to meld your Ala Mhigan gear with GP or Gathering, just Perception. 700 GP for Sharp Vision II/Field Mastery II + King's Yield II/Blessed Harvest II + Unearth/Leaf Turn = braindead success. You could maybe even just use the augmented Yellow Scrip stuff, I'm not sure; I grabbed the main hand tool and didn't really look at the rest.

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Originally Posted by Darrcyphfeid

If you're not doing Savage or EX Primals: Stop. Just... just stop. The content you're doing is so hilariously easy and the 10 ilvl bump, all things considered, is meaningless.

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Hi. Normal mode raids are for people who still like upgrading their gear but either can't (or don't like to) do savage, can't swing the cost of crafted gear, or simply want to enjoy additional story content. So sorry if this fails to meet your approval. This kind of thinking is a stereotypical example of a niche gaming mentality. "Rrrrr, only the stuff I like is worth doing!"

So arbitrary.

The context we're talking about though is leveling up a support class to obtain mats for crafted gear, not being a crafter/gatherer already at the start of the patch. If you want to try and be able to craft said pieces, its still pretty sizable effort even with being capped. If you haven't bothered much with it, you probably are going to spend a lot of time and effort otherwise. It's not really an answer to not liking the current sigma normal drops, or any form of time or effort savings.

I'm not really asking though for it to be riiculusly easy. I think it would be much easier if they just cut the parts for legs and body in half, for example.

IMO, anything to do with RNG is gonna be unfair to someone at some point. You can run these things 1000 times putting in maximum effort and not get your drop while someone who comes in and does nothing but auto attack gets their drop first run. Doesn't feel good.

There are a couple of systems I really enjoyed and they come from, go figure, FFXI.

The first is walk of echoes and other content that did similar things, a system that rewarded you with items based on your personal contribution, the more effort you put in, the more rewards you got at the end. There was still an element of RNG involved as you still might not get your rare drop the first time but you got more out of it than someone who came in and did nothing.

The second is a more recent content called ambuscade. Every time you run it you are rewarded with a special currency called hallmarks, whenever you reached a certain plateau of total hallmarks you got a piece of gear (new set every month) so once you reached 14,500 hallmarks you had the full set for that month.

I think some kind of combination of the two would be a great loot system. Awarding you with currency at the end of a run based on your contribution would strike a great middle ground between having you run it multiple times a week and getting the loot you want in a reasonable amount of time.

Essentially similar to capped weekly tomestones but rewarding you with gear specific to that content, unlike tomestones which are more general.

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Originally Posted by Galgarion

Hi. Normal mode raids are for people who still like upgrading their gear but either can't (or don't like to) do savage, can't swing the cost of crafted gear, or simply want to enjoy additional story content. So sorry if this fails to meet your approval. This kind of thinking is a stereotypical example of a niche gaming mentality. "Rrrrr, only the stuff I like is worth doing!"

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Actually, everything you just said is why we have Tomestone gear. Which happens to be 10 levels higher, has no RNG, and can be largely obtained at your leisure without slamming your face into a single brick wall. I don't really know why we have gear from the NM raid on top of that aside from the glamour niche; the inevitable "wahh, I want glamglams from Savage without doing Savage!" complaint.

And I'm not saying you can't or shouldn't do the NM raid stuff; if you like doing it, feel free to knock yourself out. If you don't like it, however, then either A) don't do it or B) do it but don't complain about it.

The RNG of the regular Sigmascape is intentional and not bad. As someone pointed out, it forces multiple runs for tokens that you can use to get gear you specifically want. The Savage format is a PERK of doing savage. Do harder content, get better gear more reliably. Plain and simple. Do the easier stuff, gonna have to work it out.

I had to run sigma at least more than 10 times this week.

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Originally Posted by Darrcyphfeid

Actually, everything you just said is why we have Tomestone gear. Which happens to be 10 levels higher, has no RNG, and can be largely obtained at your leisure without slamming your face into a single brick wall.

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Cool, cool, but can Joe Everyman get that tomstone gear hotness at a rate of three new pieces in seven days (hat, gloves, boots) like he can with normal raids, because if he caaaan't then that leaves normal modes as a perfectly acceptable filler, like intended

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Originally Posted by Galgarion

Cool, cool, but can Joe Everyman get that tomstone gear hotness at a rate of three new pieces every seven days (hat. gloves. boots)like he can with normal raids, because if he caaaan't then that leaves normal modes as a perfectly acceptable filler, like intended.

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I don't even know what you're trying to argue against, honestly.

What you responded to was what people should start asking themselves once they've started to grow tired of the gear treadmill, which is always the same with a different coat of paint. If "Joe Everyman" isn't tired of the grind, then he doesn't have to and won't want to change anything. That's fine. But if he is growing tired of it, then my post applies even if they ultimately reach a different conclusion.

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Originally Posted by Darrcyphfeid

I don't even know what you're trying to argue against, honestly.

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I'm not arguing against anything. I'm advocating for normal modes, which you wrote that people have no reason to do. Which is absolutely true, if you have a regular raiding static, millions of gil, and a full mendacity set (not currently possible). I get your point, it's just that it's so one percenter that it doesn't really touch on the average player experience at all.

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Originally Posted by Darrcyphfeid

Actually, everything you just said is why we have Tomestone gear. Which happens to be 10 levels higher, has no RNG, and can be largely obtained at your leisure without slamming your face into a single brick wall. I don't really know why we have gear from the NM raid

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You can only gear one class per two months with tome gear; if you want to have an optional class to play in other content, its really only normal mode gear or expensive crafted stuff, or staying at the base ilvl until they release the new 24 man. Like I want to use my tank in casual stuff, you start seeing the power loss over time otherwise.

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Originally Posted by Galgarion

I get your point, it's just that it's so one percenter that it doesn't really touch on the average player experience at all.

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I dunno if you do, 'cause this is very much a 99%er sort of thing. Like, genuinely.

If you're doing Savage content, you're better served with i350 crafted gear (or just rolling with the i340 Creation gear and an i355 Byakko weapon for the first 2~3 fights) and by using your time inside of Savage doing progression instead.
If you're trying to clear Byakko, some i350 normal mode gear might help a tiny bit while learning by slightly increasing HP. But then, once again, any time you spend in NM raid could've just been spent learning Byakko's mechanics better.
If you're not doing Savage and you're not doing Byakko then yay, you've spent X number of hours getting a 10 ilvl bump that you're not going to use on **** all and which will get quickly replaced by the actual welfare gear, i360 Mendacity, in fairly short order anyway.

Wanting multiple jobs at i350 (for whatever reason) aside, this is the sort of stopgap thing that the more you think about it the less appealing it becomes. "Filler" is also fine, but filler implies you're just rolling on everything and taking what you get. Which means you do it once a week, most likely, and generally walk away with items you may or may not need - a thing that would be lessened by the change proposed earlier in the thread.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

You can only gear one class per two months with tome gear; if you want to have an optional class to play in other content, its really only normal mode gear or expensive crafted stuff, or staying at the base ilvl until they release the new 24 man. Like I want to use my tank in casual stuff, you start seeing the power loss over time otherwise.

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I used to dual main DRG and WAR, so I'm aware.

But I'm also aware of how overpowered for everything non-Savage/EX Primal I was just using the upgraded uncapped Tomestone gear.

To be frank there isn't really a lot of point to savage or EX fights besides happy cudos points. It's basically a giant time sink designed to widdle time away until the next content push and it's also frustrating content because it usually entails dying repeatedly to a boss for no real gain until the event is complete. The only real reason I can see that makes it worthwhile is maybe glamour, and even then it still would be better served just gaining that glamour in any other way.

Also, this isn't a bash against people who run the content, just that for most people it's way more about how fancy can my character look over how high the iLvL is. Even back in the olden days the real joy of having the raid gear was having the looks. The bonus was basically being a living, walking trophy.

I ran 9 sigmas after this reset and not one of my rolls was above a 40. Now you all can say you don't believe me or whatever, but RNG IS that trashy sometimes, and that's what i think fails most about this game. Others have to work waaaay harder to get something another can get lucky on. I have had consistent bad RNG more than any good RNG, and being one of those people i feel that implementing it into a gearing system is just a moronic idea. If they want us to keep running the content to keep it alive and not complain about shortages of content there are better ways to go about it, perhaps guarantee a token for everyone and set the token trade for the gear at a higher quantity. At least then people will know the gear is guaranteed for them instead of running 10 runs and then when they finally get a high roll someone rolls even higher. To me it just seems like commons sense......but i never knew SE to have any of that anyway so i won't keep my hopes up. They are bad with communication with anyone other than japan too i feel.

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Originally Posted by Reinha

I have played with personal loot and it is the same level of garbage as random gear drops. It's still a gamble to get an item at all and then also to get it for the right slot. In some forms of personal loot whichever drops you don't want to use can't even be passed on to someone else so that they have a better time looting. If you can't get loot for a job you aren't currently playing then personal loot forces you to play lower geared jobs in order to get gear for them. This is not the case with tokens and tomes.

The system we have for normal 8 man raids isn't poor at all. You can get one or more pieces you can use every week, for any job and any slot regardless of what job you run the raid with. You have a 50% chance to get any token per kill and the average amount of runs it takes to get all tokens per week is two per boss, 8 total. This amount of RNG is totally bearable. You can do with even fewer runs if you collect your tokens in a different order than other people. It is a very small amount of work and takes only 4 weeks to complete (per job) when combined with tome gear.

I honestly don't see what issue people could have aside from not getting to select a piece from the loot list after only one weekly kill for all four bosses. I doubt any game has such a generous loot system for their main PvE content.

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I'd argue the token system isn't poor, except in that it takes up item slots, but the loot competition following removal of weekly lockouts certainly brings particular disadvantages to the fore. A system that works if and when a player must decide which single token to take will not necessarily (or remotely likely) work well when any player able to take all.

In the same way, normalized or supplemented RNG in personal loot systems allows for very similar rates of acquisition to token- or currency-based gear progression, but still allows for a sense of boss caches. Without any normalization, however, the same issue occurs. It ends up less a matter of the "right" system, as a system done "right". (Personally, I like a mix, slightly favoring currency for a sense of deliberate or player-chosen progression, adapting for certain random drops.) But I do think it's safe to say that the current system is not ideal, and ends up problematic after cap removal.

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Originally Posted by Vidu

...you'd think a static could organise to run this stuff together each week, so every member can get the pieces from NM they need/want...
You'd also a think that a serious static would rather see crafted&melded gear - unless some Sigma-pieces have godly substats for some classes. Making friends with a crafter or becoming one yourself can really go a long way! And if Sigma is so tedious and horrible to you... why not invest the same time in leveling up a crafter?

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Okay, not all groups have alot of hours. I know you're aware of this. We raid 2 hours x 3 days a week. We like those actually being prog stuff not snooze an hour+ on normal trying to get everyone their drops. Also, not every group has this huge network of gatherers/crafters at our beck and call like we're Elysium. There's 8 of us. We play other games. Some of us invested into crafting to get level 70 1 star. Keeping up to date with all the overmelds REQUIRED, is a pain in the buttcheeks. So guess what we did? We went in, in our Deltascape BiS 340 gear after we made sure our time before raid on release was spent on unlocking savage so we could start on time.

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Originally Posted by Darrcyphfeid

If you're "broke af" and you ain't got no crafters, this would seem to imply that you don't use food or stat pots either? You'd think a static would support its members though. /shrug

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Eh, I use El Cheapo last tier stuff and no pots. Gets me through and the price drops from this patch are quite appreciated.

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Originally Posted by Vidu

...so you'd rather have a loot-system like in normal dungeons? Aka: the chest drops two random pieces of gear, might not even be for your class - might not even be for ANY class in the group! - and repeat that until you dont only see the drop that you want (could take a while...) but also win it?
...

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No. I want to not make seven enemies the moment the boss dies because we enter pvp for tokens mode. And while you say "lazy just wants one run win"

THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT THE CURRENT SYSTEM DOES

5% of players "win" on their first run. 90% run1-3 times. Then you have the bottom 5% who are forced to run one fight 15+ times a week for ONE token.

And you think this is okay.

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Originally Posted by NolLacnala

No. I want to not make seven enemies the moment the boss dies because we enter pvp for tokens mode. And while you say "lazy just wants one run win"

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Then make seven friends before you even engage the boss. Agree on loot distrubution beforehand, run the whole thing 2, or maybe 3 times, everything gets their stuff and is done with it.

Several people, myself included, have laid out that you're doing fine without Sigma-gear. That there are alternatives to it aswell. I'd also like to mention that several runs of Sigma are helping you cap - so save for the times when you're really, really unlucky and/or lonely, you'll always get something out of it that will help you gear up (Psssst... tome-stone-gear is a thing!)

Yes, I'm okay with having to run this more than once. And I prefer the token-system over the random loot drops that we see in Rabanstre, for example. Because I dont have to pray for the gloves to be for my job, I know that with the glove-token I can just get gloves for any job I like them on.
Trust me... with a dungeon-loot-like system you'd see a lot more of Sigma. And that the "one run, get what you want"-approach cant work doesnt has to be explained again.

Lol I've never had this problem before, but this week I need just one spring...

.__. I've capped on mendacity running o7...

Sooooo yeah... Would be nice if they'd make some kind of change to the lotting system.

Like maybe, random chance + if you run it 8 times you get to just pick a piece.

Seeing that we’re well into a second expansion featuring this system, it seems it’s here to stay.

I think it's fine as is but they do need to increase the number of springs and shafts that appear because having one appear like im like bruh...

Sure making a pre-formed like some said is one solution but it still points out a flaw in the system which some are so hard headed to understand.
Some people can only actually win if they go in with others that had their loot already...

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Originally Posted by NolLacnala

No. I want to not make seven enemies the moment the boss dies because we enter pvp for tokens mode. And while you say "lazy just wants one run win"

THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT THE CURRENT SYSTEM DOES

5% of players "win" on their first run. 90% run1-3 times. Then you have the bottom 5% who are forced to run one fight 15+ times a week for ONE token.

And you think this is okay.

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It is pretty much this, every week needing to run every turn several times, one week i had so many runs in for Kefka i just gave up and did not get any loot.

back in my day NM raids only dropped 2 pieces! and we liked it! /s

i dont have much time outside of my savage progression so i use it to gear my main job that Im too cheap to buy on MB, and the rest for my alt job. Some weeks i get all my intended loot in 1 run and some weeks it takes 5 runs each level. Idc, it gets me mendacity and works towards my tank achievement.

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Originally Posted by Cabalabob

The normal mode raid loot system is the most frustrating way they could have done it. Not only do you have to roll need against the entire group but you’re not even getting an actual piece of gear, you’re getting half or even a quarter of a piece of gear.

And it doesn’t even get better with time, once the restrictions are lifted there’s no reason to not lot on a piece so everyone and their grandmother is going to be lotting on all items whether they even need it or not.

Yes you can run it with a PF or a static or whatever, but this is easy content that you’re far more likely to just run in DF and it is such a painful process.

I assume we’re going to be stuck with this system for the rest of omega but please PLEASE for 5.0 consider a new way to handle the normal mode loot system.

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With Sigmascape now unlocked, it is as you say, the need to get four shafts/springs for the chest/legwear is a pain due to competition.

I don't run NM 8-man Raids, nor the Savage versions, nor Ultimate content, nor EX Primals. I personally don't give a flying f*** about the rewards they offer, and memorizing mechanics isn't my idea of fun.

That said... I find it absolutely insane that some people are defending the wretched drop system for 8-man Raiding. It's not about whether the items are needed or not. It's not about providing an incentive to re-run content. It's not about whether the system is a major pain point for you personally, or not. It's about calling a spade a spade. If you're going to build a token system, do it right: don't make a half-dozen items where one will do. This is the same sort of shitty implementation that SE originally 'designed' for Glamours; remember when there used to be Prism tiers, separated out by craft no less? Good f***ing lord, it was dumb. Exactly as dumb as the current system for NM Raids is. It is indefensible, and should be changed. And this is coming from someone who will likely never run this content, and will certainly never seek the rewards - but I can recognize incompetence when I see it.