More engaging DPS for healers

Will never understand why this debate is still going. I think it was said before (not sure if by Yoshi or someone else up there) that encounters are tuned where healer DPS isn't factored into it. Assuming this also means things like savage, healers are not required to DPS and if there is a problem with meeting enrage timers and the like it sounds like a problem with the DPS than the healers.

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Originally Posted by Ruinfeild

Will never understand why this debate is still going. I think it was said before (not sure if by Yoshi or someone else up there) that encounters are tuned where healer DPS isn't factored into it. Assuming this also means things like savage, healers are not required to DPS and if there is a problem with meeting enrage timers and the like it sounds like a problem with the DPS than the healers.

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Maybe I'm wrong but you seem to have misunderstood what the thread is about. This thread isn't about whether healers should/should not dps, it's about whether their current damage dealing capabilities should be expanded upon (e.g combos, heal/dps synergy, etc).

Personally I feel that the fairest way to address this is to have each healer fulfill a different aspect of the 'healer' role. One could be more of a 'pure healer' (think White Mage), one could be a support healer (think Astrologian), and another could be a more damage dealing oriented healer with combos and/or healing/damage synergy (think Scholar but with more engaging damage capabilities).

Naturally, I'd assume it'd be close to impossible to balance three jobs within the same role that all fulfill completely different aspects of the healing job.

I could go either way, to be honest. The changes that were suggested seem very interesting, yet, I'm totally fine if they weren't. Mostly because I love DPSing as a healer, lol :D. Obviously healing comes first, but DPSing at all makes me feel totally engaged. If I didn't DPS, I'd feel much like the kind of parent that just sits on the bench with a tube of Neosporin and Band-Aids and simply waits for their child to get hurt. Which is no fun at all. I guess what I'm trying to say is, the changes seem great, but making healer DPS seem more appealing is a bit futile if that healer has already made up their mind to not DPS.

I like these ideas. And I think Sch is a good proto example of the 'rotation' bit since well we kind of already have a rotation what being a former dps class.

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Originally Posted by Connor

Maybe I'm wrong but you seem to have misunderstood what the thread is about. This thread isn't about whether healers should/should not dps, it's about whether their current damage dealing capabilities should be expanded upon (e.g combos, heal/dps synergy, etc).

Personally I feel that the fairest way to address this is to have each healer fulfill a different aspect of the 'healer' role. One could be more of a 'pure healer' (think White Mage), one could be a support healer (think Astrologian), and another could be a more damage dealing oriented healer with combos and/or healing/damage synergy (think Scholar but with more engaging damage capabilities).

Naturally, I'd assume it'd be close to impossible to balance three jobs within the same role that all fulfill completely different aspects of the healing job.

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Ya, chances are I might have. When it comes to healer and DPS it is hard at times to really pull them apart. Just ignore me if I misunderstood the topic.

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Originally Posted by akaneakki

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I don't think you read my other posts because if you did, you wouldn't have posted this. Then again, maybe you would have posted this reply anyway because I don't really expect people to understand my viewpoint (no one ever does so whatever *shrug*).

Oh, and never said I was a good WHM. I'm just saying it's the class that I can most easily get into and perform somewhat competently. As I've said already, adding changes like this would make it harder for ME. From your post I guess it wouldn't make it harder for you.

Ehhh, there's a fine line.

As a WHM main, I enjoy slamming enemies with balls to the wall damage and pushing the tech of my class to the limit while keeping a group alive with basic healing. I routinely get double and triple commendations from groups who are impressed by the effort I put into playing the class.

The gamble of "I can pull off one more holy" or "I've got time for this, X and X are ready for when shit hits the fan" is exhilarating.

Honestly, I'd argue some WHM abilities are irrelevant for healing 90% of the time. Thin Air? Thing is practically designed for Holy/Stone spam. Between Assize and Lucid Dreaming, your MP is near infinite for regular healing (unless you're also spamming res). Presence of Mind is useful if Swiftcast is down but otherwise, might as well throw it towards even more Holy/Stone spam.

I think SE is playing more with adding tools to the kit that can be used for DPS and Healing; while maybe being intended for DPS. While some of us may enjoy using those tools in unspecified ways, pushing things to the limit, SQE has to be careful with legitimizing Real damage from healers. They want people to focus on HEALING. You put too much pressure to also do damage, we may have more dead people and fewer healers. Marrying the two may alleviate that, or it may make the act of switching your brain between healing and offensive that much more complicated and burdensome.

Not every player is capable of that level of multi-tasking. It's hard. That's why people shy from also damaging, it's too much. So they stick with what they're comfortable with. To much pressure, they may just quit. There's healing, and then there's high-end healing. There's tanking, and high-end tanking. DPS, and high-end DPS. The difference is, the line between the two for healing is way more obvious and easier to see.

As for better, more engaging DPS options for healer? Please give me a new kind of attack! Holy/Wind DoT/Stone Strike have been the routine since 2.0!! PLEASE! Some new kind of GCD attack that involves water or something! I'm tired if seeing Green and Brown! More big splashes of blue! How about a vortex move that pulls enemies to the center for easy grouping?

Anything really. Just mix it up a tiny bit!

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Originally Posted by Ruinfeild

Will never understand why this debate is still going. I think it was said before (not sure if by Yoshi or someone else up there) that encounters are tuned where healer DPS isn't factored into it. Assuming this also means things like savage, healers are not required to DPS and if there is a problem with meeting enrage timers and the like it sounds like a problem with the DPS than the healers.

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So healers shouldn't have a reasonably engaging dps skill set for solo content?

Hell no. You want them to degrade the role even more? They need to do the exact opposite. They need to give us enough to do in fights in our main role. We heal, and they should add buffing and debuffing. Let us stay busy with party support. The only reason we have to turn to dpsing is because they make our role so unnecessary to use constantly, and the only abilities we have right now are dps abilities. I have absolutely no interest in being nothing but a green dps and I will drop the role I've played since ARR in a heartbeat if they did something like this.

The Red Kojin in the MSQ use some fancy AoE water spells that I'd rather have for my whm...

I'm upset that mobs get the old fashioned line of spells like tier spells or ancient magic, and we get ... lillies.

I'm not against making healers more engaging, but I stand by my statement I made in the thread in the Healer subforum that was sort of similar to this. Making the job have more interwoven mechanics and such is fine, but it'll just further the gap between bad and good healers. These changes would make bad healers far more apparent. I like the idea of a higher skill ceiling but I'm not sure how I feel about adding some of these changes.

They are interesting ideas regardless.

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Originally Posted by NephthysVasudan

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Judging by these types of responses to Moro's suggestion, I don't think people actually grasp what she's saying.


Nothing about what she said is even remotely complicated, it's about spell synergy to make gameplay more enjoyable.


AST is a prime example of a dps rotation that is not only extremely boring, but doesn't flow well at all. Having healer dps be more engaging and interesting for when you have to dps isn't a bad thing.

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Originally Posted by BillyKaplan

What if they made healing more engaging for healers...?

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Healer dps rotations are bland because anything complex would be much more difficult to effectively weave in with healing. If a person wants an engaging dps rotation then they should play a dps class. Not play some class whose primary role is something else.

Furthermore people usually play healers because they like to heal. Making healing more engaging would be a much more rewarding experience for them than making dps more engaging.

"Hay, lets just jump the shark completely guys."

That's what the thread title should be.

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Originally Posted by Bobs

"Hay, lets just jump the shark completely guys."

That's what the thread title should be.

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That's a little harsh.

This is something that healers talk about on occasion... trying to find ways to make our role more engaging outside spamming 1 or two spells when not healing, or to try and come up with ideas to make dpsing seem more appealing on healers. It's not really jumping the shark.

Well, how are tanks and DPS players rewarded for proper gcd/ogcd execution? Increased potencies, enmity generation, HP/MP restoration, increased durations, etc. Correct? So how do you reward a healer when their entire toolkit is nearly always situational? It would be very difficult with the way our current healers are set up. However, I don't think it is entirely impossible. For example, stacking Bio/Bio2 and Miasma on a mob would proc your Adlo AND Broil so the next time you cast either (you have to choose), it's a 100% critical rate. So if someone needs the Adlo, you cast it; if not, then Broil a mob. However, you cannot clip the dots, or it won't proc.

I also think what you're asking for can be accomplished with another healer job. As a new job, they have a blank canvas to create it so it would be easier to design it in a way that intergrades their healing and DPS toolkits. I still feel like Dancer being our first healer/ranged melee hybrid is the perfect opportunity to make this happen. A healer who increases both healing and DPS capability through their offensive toolkit. I honestly believe it would be received and very fun to play if done right.

If dpsing would synergized just as suggested, I would prefer getting Virus and Disable back instead to be honest. Any form of mitigation trough damage spells (paladin, war, monk) were removed, why would healer get it instead ? I don't think it would work.
Honestly I wouldn't want that happen because, with that easy rotation since I'm spamming that same spell over and over, I can keep an eye on my party and see what my co-healer/tank or even dps do, as well as watching carefully mechanics. I don't want to worry about having to cast x Stone or Broil to have some extra healing or mitigation.

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Originally Posted by VanilleFang

That's a little harsh.

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All this thread is asking for is RDM with an AoE heal

I mean if we are taking healers to the extreme DPS.
Otherwise you are asking for a bunch of extra keys to press that do the same DMG as current healer.
It's one or the other.

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Originally Posted by Bobs

It's one or the other.

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You clearly didn't read the original post.

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Originally Posted by VanilleFang

You clearly didn't read the original post.

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I did dude. So I'll repeat myself. Seems like you did not read what I wrote.

You are asking for a bunch of extra keys to press that do the same DMG as current healer.

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Originally Posted by Bobs

I did dude. So I'll repeat myself. Seems like you did not read what I wrote.

You are asking for a bunch of extra keys to press that do the same DMG as current healer.

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Dude, I'm not asking for anything. But the original post isn't asking for extra buttons to do the same DPS we have now. Most of what they asked for was extra benefits for doing DPS.

Don't really know why you repeated yourself when that was literally what I was referring to.

I for one dont want it. If anything i want to deter the idea of DPSing as a Healer. In a system where u are assign a role, been Healer, DPS or Tank, i dont want to step into anyone of them.

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Originally Posted by VanilleFang

Dude, I'm not asking for anything. But the original post isn't asking for extra buttons to do the same DPS we have now. Most of what they asked for was extra benefits for doing DPS..

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If you do a blanket lookover (like I'm convinced he did), it does look more like it's just making healers more like Red Mage with more healing options, which although being an overly hasty conclusion on the matter, is still a very valid concern that has probably been grappled with at least a few times by job devs.

At what point does a healer stop being a healer and start being a DPS with heals? Some might argue that with the design of the game and the parsing culture of the playerbase that we're well past that point. Others could look at a job like Red Mage and go "yes, that's the benchmark for it", and I suspect job devs had that in mind as the job was created. Then there's the possibility that healer DPS is intentionally dumbed down as it is in other major MMORPGs for the intended understanding that healers are shockingly not DPS. Either way, I think some sort of required guidelines have to be in place before any sort of ideas regarding aspects of healer DPS can be addressed, to which I can can come up with at least two:

1.) No healer damage kit should be more complicated than that of any DPS. It is important to bear in mind that the increased simplicity of the current healer damage kit is due to the understanding that by dealing damage as a healer, you are effectively multitasking between two roles. Although it may seem like an easy feat for some, it surprisingly isn't that case for every player, which is why the argument that the life of a DPS is just as hard as any other role bears slightly less credibility than a working microwave with a broken door, and I'm sure anyone attempting to make such an argument would probably lose nothing by sticking their head in it.

2.) Any boons of healer DPS have to benefit healing. In order to better reward dealing damage as a healer, it would be a more ideal compromise between what the players want and what devs would want that any sort of damage dealt by healers would have a way of increasing the effectiveness of healing spells or abilities in some form or fashion to reinforce the reminder that although any damage dealt by a healer is a boon to the party, at the end of the day, they are intended to be healers first and foremost.

On the other hand, I think if we have to ask ourselves about enhancing the DPS gameplay of healers in this regard, we should probably be asking how healing can be made more engaging in this game as well aside from dealing damage on the side.

I dunno where this idea that healers would get more buttons is coming from - it's been disputed multiple times. On the subject of discouraging healers from DPS'ing...why? This repeated argument that if the DPS can't produce the necessary damage numbers is asinine at best, because that's on everyone. I cannot fathom the reasoning why a healer would only want to heal and nothing else. There are quite a few instances in the game where you don't have a choice but to deal damage. And let's be honest, pretty much every instanced duty requires teamwork - why would you not want to help your team? I can understand in some fights where you're overwhelmed to the point that you have no choice but to stick to healing - but every fight to this point has adequate time for healers to produce some DPS.

On subject from what I've read, the whole idea is to encourage healers to DPS more and it produces an additional benefit to the team. I like the idea that with each Stone cast, the WHM would apply a stoneskin to the enemy target. How is that a bad thing? Now if you have a healer that starts focusing more on DPS than healing - well, give them a warning. If that doesn't work, kick them. It's not hard to get a healer to queue into an instance. How is something like this that complicated? Please, do enlighten me.

Instead of focusing solely on just the negatives, why not try opening your mind and think about all the positives that this could potentially bring. Think of something for ASTs, think of something for SCHs. Stop looking for something to critique all the time.

I main WHM, AST, and SCH because I want to heal and support my party members, not do damage. If I wanted to play a bloated, overly complicated offensive class with painfully restrictive rotations, I'd pick any DPS currently available in the game.

Overhaul the healing jobs as proposed in the OP and there'd honestly be nothing left in this game for me.

I really like the idea of adding mechanics to our DPS kit that feed back into our healing kit. So it really annoys me when people shout that these suggestions to interweave the skills in a kit steps on the toes of other roles. I think they're forgetting that the holy role trinity should be a guideline more than anything else. For there will always be unique and specialized niches and functions of individual classes that make them more than two dimensional. If they want to dogmatically devote themselves singularly to healing, they may as well go play a doctor simulator for all the other action they ignore.

Even in the game story itself, White Mage, Scholar, and Astrologian. They are NOT pure healers, they may specialize in mending but they have the tools to fight as well, that's why they go on to the battlefield after all.
White mages elemental spells are almost exclusively attacks. Scholors prepare barriers and then go on to provide covering fire. Astrologians are the least offensive of the healers trading attacks and healing both compared to the others for tons of utility.

Anyway, adding some ideas onto the OP's suggestions, I think going along with the Stone->Stoneskin idea, what if rather than applying directly to the target of your target, it gave yourself a stacking buff that increases the power of Divine Benison? After all, that's what pretty much replaced Stoneskin and this way your attacks will feed back into your healing kit in a way you'll be able to control.

I do think we could make room for some Dps into more Dps mechanics, but I agree with another poster that said that our Dps kit should never actually be as complicated as a DPS. If we want spell combos, I believe it would be good to take a page from RDM's book, which is to say procs with a long forgiving duration that understand that we might not be able to act on them right away. I always did loath spell tiers and the pruning done to them because they basically did the same things. Why not have taken another page from say, BLM's book wherein I,II,III,IV and what not were not simply numbers upgrades but mechanic upgrades. Bam there's our Dps kit given more depth without adding more buttons,if anything, we're giving back buttons.

If these ideas seem like they are taking a lot of pages from others, I bring this philosophical note from the Artist department.
Good artists copy, Great artists steal.
This is not about plagiarizing, but about how someone less might simply go along with a technique because it works compared to someone better who will break down and understand a technique before putting a new spin on it to make their own.

As a tank who has died numerous times because the healer was too usy spamming Holy, Id like to see the implementation of either attack spells that offer a slight healing to nearby party members or healing spells that add a damage to nearby monsters.

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Originally Posted by Pyroxene

As a tank who has died numerous times because the healer was too usy spamming Holy, Id like to see the implementation of either attack spells that offer a slight healing to nearby party members or healing spells that add a damage to nearby monsters.

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But we already have that. WHM has Assize and AST has Earthly Star. SCH doesn't have anything of the sort, but having an assistant that heals for a decent amount allows them to be more aggressive with DPS.

There was a thread on healer forum about ways to incentivize DPS back then and I agree with most of them. I believe Sebazy has already mentioned some of these ideas and I think that is the most reasonable way going forward as healers; it's a fine compromise for this attack/support thingy. Zero DPS as healer is... uh, not recommended for most contents. However, it seems that the fixation with healer DPS is starting to get out of hand too. From healers going full DH meld to healers going to melee range to do some card-slapping/book-whacking/staff-bashing because "DPS loss is DPS loss".

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Originally Posted by Aeducan

But we already have that. WHM has Assize and AST has Earthly Star. SCH doesn't have something like that, but having an assistant that heals for a decent amount allows them to be more aggressive with DPS.

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I wish more actions across multiple classes functioned like Assize. Fewer skills that offer more versatility makes for a game that's easier to pick up, but still hard to master, and in my opinion, a hell of a lot more fun than a hotbar dance.

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Originally Posted by Aeducan

But we already have that. WHM has Assize and AST has Earthly Star. SCH doesn't have something like that, but having an assistant that heals for a decent amount allows them to be more aggressive with DPS.

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I mean more engaging additions, like a small heal added to stone/holy or a "aero mobs near target" cure 1 etc. adapt for different healer classes etc but the concept is there

I would much rather have a focus on how I can help my party members increase their output of DPS then be expected to have X DPS as a healer myself,
I'd love to be able to cast Haste as a White mage.

The way it is heading now ALL classes are DPS with a side duty of Enmity holding or healing; and that sounds terribly boring.

It does, but that is the path people seem to want.

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Originally Posted by Pyroxene

As a tank who has died numerous times because the healer was too usy spamming Holy, Id like to see the implementation of either attack spells that offer a slight healing to nearby party members or healing spells that add a damage to nearby monsters.

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You know, that is less a problem with dps spells, but the person just being a bad healer. I don't think there's really anyone reasonable on the dps side who would say dps only as much as the healing side demands healing only. We know our job is to heal first, dps is something we do when there isn't a demand for healing, and here in this thread we want the kit we use during that time to be more engaging than spamming a filler spell.

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Originally Posted by Niqote

I would much rather have a focus on how I can help my party members increase their output of DPS then be expected to have X DPS as a healer myself,
I'd love to be able to cast Haste as a White mage.

The way it is heading now ALL classes are DPS with a side duty of Enmity holding or healing; and that sounds terribly boring.

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I can understand that, which is why my idea is to try to make dps procs and mechanics that eventually if not immediately feed back into our healing kit.

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Originally Posted by Niqote

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Hmm....I believe I mentioned it before, but thinking about it...maybe haste wouldn't be a good idea. For example, when I am playing Samurai, I have a specific rotation in mind and having the GCD decreased by too much could actually throw off my timing. Not saying I disagree with the idea of haste, and I'm sure I would get used to having a haste on me. I know BLM's would appreciate having a fast, or near instantaneous cast time with the ability.

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Originally Posted by Niqote

I would much rather have a focus on how I can help my party members increase their output of DPS then be expected to have X DPS as a healer myself,
I'd love to be able to cast Haste as a White mage.

The way it is heading now ALL classes are DPS with a side duty of Enmity holding or healing; and that sounds terribly boring.

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This!

I would love to see healers play a more support role, then hybrid DPS role. I want my spells to help the DPS do more DPS. Right now we have 3 DPS roles, one can heal and DPS, the other can tank and DPS and the pure DPS. I want to see healers moved away from DPS and more support role or make DPS players do something else aswell.

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Originally Posted by Niqote

I would much rather have a focus on how I can help my party members increase their output of DPS then be expected to have X DPS as a healer myself,
I'd love to be able to cast Haste as a White mage.

The way it is heading now ALL classes are DPS with a side duty of Enmity holding or healing; and that sounds terribly boring.

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This is 100% my solution of preference too. Having additional incentives to spam Malefic / Gravity is not making it more interesting. There is no need to put any thoughts into it. Buffing party members however - that's on an entire different level. It's not particularily hard - but it sure does feel more rewarding, at least for me, which is why I love my cards above all else. I don't even care much about my personal DPS being low to compensate for that.

It still stuns me that SE didn’t have the foresight to properly take AST all the way down this road. Let them spend their GCDs optimising cards rather than DPSing, it’d make a *lot* of people happy, open up the more passive playstyle so many desire and help stop the job being little more than a copy paste of whm with a clunky cards thrown on top.

Yoshida pls sort your healer designer out =(

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

It still stuns me that SE didn’t have the foresight to properly take AST all the way down this road. Let them spend their GCDs optimising cards rather than DPSing, it’d make a *lot* of people happy, open up the more passive playstyle so many desire and help stop the job being little more than a copy paste of whm with a clunky cards thrown on top.

Yoshida pls sort your healer designer out =(

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I think they fear that making the 3 healers different from each other, will make it so people will favour taking certain healers over others. I do agree with you though, I wish they went full support with AST.

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Originally Posted by Laerune

This!

I would love to see healers play a more support role, then hybrid DPS role. I want my spells to help the DPS do more DPS. Right now we have 3 DPS roles, one can heal and DPS, the other can tank and DPS and the pure DPS. I want to see healers moved away from DPS and more support role or make DPS players do something else aswell.

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theres a 4th role, which is pure DPS that has utility abilities for the party, while the other pure DPS classes are left with little to no utility