Please make a vote surrender option in Rival Wings

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Originally Posted by Kaoru_Nagisa

I've seen games turn around even at the 3-minute mark because people kept trying, kept pushing, kept leading and kept fighting.

Don't give up until it's literal seconds left on the clock. Mid isn't everything and you can still win even with both towers crushed.

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I think I love you.

Rethinking on it the Vote Surrender option should be at 15 min, not 10, because had a few games where the entire party just let the other team just win the match in like 5-8 minutes and still got the rewards.

Why won't we have this option when we can just collude together and just lose much faster?

There are some games you can make a comeback when all seems lost....

However I was in a particularly nasty one sided fight that ended in almost 9 minutes.... It was bad.... So even with your suggestion sometimes a 10 min surrender isnt soon enough XP

All you can do is fight and maybe just maybe you can pull out a good win.

While I would often do that, as I have shown photos of before, there is legit no way you can make a comeback if A. You lost mid. B, you have no mechs. C, can't collect CE fast enough because either oppositions blocks you or you're being bombarded at the door so you have to divert resources to preventing them from destroying your core and D. They have either their tower or both towers well defended you can't destroy them.

Sometimes, all you're doing by fighting is delaying the inevitible, there won't be a change in results no matter how hard you defend. If you can make a comeback, its if the opposition misplays, or you manage to build up the CE for a mech rush.

If it was easier to make a comeback or to break stalemates in this game I wouldn't want to suggest this in the first place.

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Originally Posted by GenericMagus

While I would often do that, as I have shown photos of before, there is legit no way you can make a comeback if A. You lost mid. B, you have no mechs. C, can't collect CE fast enough because either oppositions blocks you or you're being bombarded at the door so you have to divert resources to preventing them from destroying your core and D. They have either their tower or both towers well defended you can't destroy them.

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This was my 9 minute disaster. They had stacked healers on top and bottom. It was ridiculous. however with good communications, comebacks even with healer stacking, is possible. I've seen it more than once. It just wasn't happening that game..... *shrugs* oh well.

While turnarounds are possible, it's not as easy to do as say, The Feast.
In The Feast it's designed to be back and fourth.

I think steps to prevent total dominance in Rival Wings should be the first step.

I would say no to a vote surrender option. As it is I believe people give up far too quickly and even if there's no way to reverse it(which is almost never the case anyway), a loss can be a learning opportunity.

I've seen a couple 8-9 minute stompings, which do suck. However in most of them at least one person, if not multiple, loudly complained we lost two minutes in because we didn't get the middle. This has a huge psychological effect, if someone says its hopeless then it automatically gives the rest of the team an excuse to not try as hard. It's not over until its over.

I've also seen huge comebacks because the group hadn't given up and used the options they had to the best of their ability. Mammets can do a lot of damage to towers and give some CE, which can get you a mech for a bigger comeback. Or someone could be very good at using the BJ, and so on. And even if a comeback isn't possible, you can use the time to practice or try something new and different.

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Originally Posted by silverlunarfox

This was my 9 minute disaster. They had stacked healers on top and bottom. It was ridiculous. however with good communications, comebacks even with healer stacking, is possible. I've seen it more than once. It just wasn't happening that game..... *shrugs* oh well.

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The fact that one particular role can effectively block progress on main objectives in a match really highlights a problem that needs addressing, and I hope that's what 4.18 is all about.

They can only block it because it stays static the whole match, though. Seal Rock id the right thing by having the resource degrade over time and relocate.

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

I think I love you.

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You're actually the one who made me realize things aren't always assured until the last few seconds. c:

I was in a match with you once on my alt, and you were doing your best to lead people and direct the team. That victory we won was the sweetest in a long time, especially when it felt like we were beat for sure! Since then, I've been trying to keep fighting and doing my best 'til the very end - I've just noticed an uptick in how quick people are to throw in the towel and start spouting demoralizing stuff in chat the moment mid is lost or a tower goes down. That, more than anything, is starting to make it so I'm not as eager to jump into RW as I was before. ;;

Oh wow, I didn't know anyone took notice of me like that! I'm glad to have helped you that way, and I definitely hope I have you on my team in the future!

And yes, a disturbing lack of fighting spirit is missing from PvP these days. It's infuriating, especially seeing how self-justified these quitters try to be. Sometimes you just can't win. Sometimes, you're going to suffer a crushing defeat, but I'd rather die a fool on my feet than live a know-it-all on my knees.

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

Oh wow, I didn't know anyone took notice of me like that! I'm glad to have helped you that way, and I definitely hope I have you on my team in the future!

And yes, a disturbing lack of fighting spirit is missing from PvP these days. It's infuriating, especially seeing how self-justified these quitters try to be. Sometimes you just can't win. Sometimes, you're going to suffer a crushing defeat, but I'd rather die a fool on my feet than live a know-it-all on my knees.

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I see your name often on the forums and have had you before in a really good Shatter match! xD

I agree, though. The worst is when they are right in us losing, but I mean - if you won't even bother trying to turn things around, what are you queueing for? Of course we'll lose if people just throw in the glove and afk at base the moment something goes south - it's a self-made outcome. I feel like if we had a vote to throw things in, it'd be abused a lot or spammed the same way people try to spam Vote Abandon in DF duties... -.-

Hmmm, the time saving thing is its only positive aspect. The potential blow to morale and/or defeatist mentality in a casual game like like this is too big. Also there is the possibility of abuse etc. as already mentioned before. (as a sidenote, the bot thing could be fixed by a threshold of minimum performance, like in FATES).

RW has a big issue with time though. The majority of the matches so far runs out on time. It may change as peeps get more familiar, but one should see that by now... Or not, this is the FF14 player-base after all lulz.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

This actually was a problem in other matches too, in Shatter if you are at 300 points at the half way mark, you might as well give up, because you can't magically outplay people to make up a 300 point gap. there are points where the match is just lost, but keeps going on.

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There are matches you can't win, but 300 points behind in Seize at half-time... C'mon, that should, in most cases, be totally doable. For instance, participate were leading team goes and coordinate your team to flank them with 3rd team. It can be frustrating with team of randoms, sure, but if done efficiently, 300 points can melt pretty quickly.

You're depending on the other team to act in concert with you. If they are second place...they don't attack first, they attack third. On Primal, Mael would be first and Adder...would try to close the gap by farming flames, unless flames literally was so low they wouldn't give points for kills. It makes sense, because 5 points is easier to get from third than first. It got to the point where adders could be counted on not to engage mael in shatter, and were often in the perpetual number 2 spot.

A lot of the solutions here to me don't seem rooted in how people actually play sometimes.

That's because people often don't play smart. . . If I'm trying to gain a lead on the first place team, why would I attack third? They don't matter nearly as much in a situation where each KO is points lost from that team. Why go after the small fry when I could actively reduce the leading team's points? And if I were third place in that scenario, attack both! "Assist" second place, and once they're engaged, hit them both. Sounds dirty, but it's strategic, and it works.

Oh, and if I were first place? Continue to crush all that challenge me and top it off with a noblewoman's laugh. Ohoho!

Edit: Now I actually want a /ohoho

Because the lead team will kill you back, and make the point gain less overall. Like you kill 4, they kill 3, you did a lot of effort for little gain. But you kill 4 of the third place for only 1, you actually get closer to filling the gap. The only way you can avoid this is if both teams bumrush the team in the lead, who actually fights back. A lot of itmes in seal rock you were better off abandoning the node instead of doing that.

But yeah, that gave me no end of frustration in shatter. The one thing you learn about gamers is that expecting them to play in certain ways is bound to fail.

I was going to say “reduce the time by five minutes” but tonight I had a match where we needed just a bit more than that...I hate this mode. Hopefully tonight’s patch makes it go faster.

Thanks to cannon nerfs I guess thats one way to end the stalemate at the end of defending, now those who are defending can't push back as hard and so the match ends quicker.

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

The fact that one particular role can effectively block progress on main objectives in a match really highlights a problem that needs addressing, and I hope that's what 4.18 is all about.

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so much for 4.18.... :/

I took the day off to rest after a rather busy period at work, and maybe play a little later. But in all honesty, I don't even feel like logging in today.

To me the cannon nerfs are unneeded, like I would still have the vite surrender option over this. It makes it much too harder to make said comeback from because now the enemy has an easier time attacking your core.

This patch also unintentionally buffed healers as well, thanks to then being able to handle the damage of the turret better and not to mention faster mammet charges.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

This actually was a problem in other matches too, in Shatter if you are at 300 points at the half way mark, you might as well give up, because you can't magically outplay people to make up a 300 point gap. there are points where the match is just lost, but keeps going on.

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This is blasphemy. I have been on a team that overcame a 500 point gap and won. You never know when the tides of battle will shift. I have also been in a match where at the 10 minute mark both of our towers were dead and we came back and won.

I am also on Primal with you and Mael isn't as tough as you make them out to be. A group of 6-8 people would completely and utterly destroy mael.

But they didn't. I played Shatter a lot then, enough to get enough wolfmarks to get every piece of garo gear for all jobs twice over. I think you are looking at the 8v8s now and saying that. But I remember the time as being put on flames 90% of the time, and going 19% on wins for my weekly rankings. It got to the point where you wouldn't get enough wins to make the challenge log work.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

But they didn't. I played Shatter a lot then, enough to get enough wolfmarks to get every piece of garo gear for all jobs twice over. I think you are looking at the 8v8s now and saying that. But I remember the time as being put on flames 90% of the time, and going 19% on wins for my weekly rankings. It got to the point where you wouldn't get enough wins to make the challenge log work.

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Oh it wasn't 8's. I remember charging into mael's base and steam rolling them on 24's. It was a last ditch hurrah that paid off. I am on Flames and I was able to get my weekly challenge log. I also often stole Mael's base and distracted half their alliance.