Rival wings consolidated feedback

Mid needs to be nerfed in terms of energy gain. It's stupid that matches are defined by the initial push to mid; if you win it, you can just send three healers and another job, and you cannot dislodge them since all that can kill them are either 12 dps or a couple cruise chasers (which can't enter mid.) Mid literally defines the match every time you play, since all it becomes is who can produce the most mechs and push a lane.

Healers need to be nerfed, period. They are ok only if you can bring a couple of cruise chasers to kill them; they are just too strong when in numbers. Why is it so hard for people who are paid to design games for a living to see something anyone who plays one or two days of matches in the mode can see?

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Originally Posted by Cidel

I don't think they can give it much more with the sole intention of being "not boring" when it's not out to fulfill it's purpose. If this thing could mow through mammets it needs to not get CE per kill, or this thing will be a non-stop generator of easy CE for itself.

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If you were able to decimate mammets with an oppressor, it wouldn't really matter if you gain CE or not. Not only you are denying a lot of CE for other players who won't be able to deal enough damage to mammets, but also your party already has an oppressor, so you'll be sitting with 100 CE without any way to spend it until the oppressor gets destroyed.
Or, if it's too worrying, just make the mammet-kill skill use something like 500 energy total to kill a mammet wave, so you'd have to recharge constantly, spending the CE you'd earn by killing mammets. (500 energy is what you get back with the recharge skill, which cost 25 CE. So killing a wave of mammets would make you lose a total of 5 CE, so you wouldn't be able to do forever).

There's also another idea: allow oppressors to weaken the nearby mammets instead of killing them (give them a high vulnerability or lower their HP drastically). That way, either other players would kill the mammets or your own mammets would. It'd prevent the oppressor to "farm" CE, while also making people focus more on staying around an oppressor to benefit from killing mammets.

Anyway, Oppressors are not fun to play 80 to 90% of the time. That's the main point. Being able to do something to mammets was just an idea to keep pilots busy when they are on their way or when they can't reach their target.

I think it's alright for the most part as it is. My only real complaint is that the sides aren't exactly even in terms of map layout fairness. There's quite a few spots I've been able to nuke the ravens south tower while being relatively hidden while also having high ground but I wasn't able to do that to the falcons side to the same extent because I noticed the terrain cover was different.

Otherwise my only real suggestion is maybe add more CE to the North and South portions of the map to encourage players to farm and defend those points.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

Mid needs to be nerfed in terms of energy gain. It's stupid that matches are defined by the initial push to mid; if you win it, you can just send three healers and another job, and you cannot dislodge them since all that can kill them are either 12 dps or a couple cruise chasers (which can't enter mid.) Mid literally defines the match every time you play, since all it becomes is who can produce the most mechs and push a lane.

Healers need to be nerfed, period. They are ok only if you can bring a couple of cruise chasers to kill them; they are just too strong when in numbers. Why is it so hard for people who are paid to design games for a living to see something anyone who plays one or two days of matches in the mode can see?

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I disagree with the first point slightly. While mid could use a nerf, everyone is also way too hung up on it. I've been on the winning side of multiple games where we've barely touched md. How? Because people actually bothered killing mammets and collecting fuel tanks in the north and south

I'm usually the first person/team to get a mech because I have 5+ cannisters while people are still clawing and scratching over mid.

Mid is important, yes, but it is not the auto-win so many people think it is and it kinda annoys me more that people spend so much effort on it while there's fuel literally walking around the map.

As for healers being too strong, I definitely agree there. There's not enough CC to warrant how strong healers are. Like half the jobs don't half any form of CC at all and unless you bring a friend or two, the CC that is available is not strong enough to consistently take down healers solo unless you're just fighting bad healers.

Rival Wings itself is interesting but most of my wins were from timing out which is kind of a meh win for me. But as a healer I really don't like that it lets me target players in the cave below the generator.

For healers maybe you could reduce their HP in rival wings. Putting them at say 8k HP would mean they would be in real danger to die by laser x sword and would also probably need more help from other classes to be effective.

For the matter of ranged being prefered, i agree that melee atm dont really have a purpose in this mode and are more or less inferior to ranged. In shatter it felt like melee had somewhat of a purpose in killing ice since it took less dmg from magic, so maybe in rival wings they could make melees deal additional dmg against mechs and towers or something.

Healers are insanely overpowered right now. There was several times there was a single WHM and six people on them and we could not kill them. Likewise, there has been several occasions where I plunk my AST ass down and just heal through four people wailing on me until a CC comes to scatter them.

I wish you could not select your own machina. You can't do anything to them so often they just get in the way and I accidentally heal them when I'm trying to heal people beneath them.

I kind of wish that they'd only let you pilot the Brute Justice after you've scored X number of kills or some other requirement to make it less likely that incompetent players get their hands on it.

It can make a tremendous difference if someone is using to support a push, especially up north where the chokepoints on the bridges make it difficult to avoid its attacks. However, most of the pilots I've seen just run off and start fighting with stray players and chasers instead of sticking with the group.

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

I kind of wish that they'd only let you pilot the Brute Justice after you've scored X number of kills or some other requirement to make it less likely that incompetent players get their hands on it.

It can make a tremendous difference if someone is using to support a push, especially up north where the chokepoints on the bridges make it difficult to avoid its attacks. However, most of the pilots I've seen just run off and start fighting with stray players and chasers instead of sticking with the group.

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Yeah gets real depressing seeing the person hopping in vehicles the whole match then they get brute and you just want the match to end your suffering. Then you get a cherry on top when you see that person barely broke 100k dmg.

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

I kind of wish that they'd only let you pilot the Brute Justice after you've scored X number of kills or some other requirement to make it less likely that incompetent players get their hands on it.

It can make a tremendous difference if someone is using to support a push, especially up north where the chokepoints on the bridges make it difficult to avoid its attacks. However, most of the pilots I've seen just run off and start fighting with stray players and chasers instead of sticking with the group.

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It's not like bad pilots in other mechs are that much better.

I've had times where I can run down an Oppressor attempting a sneak attack. I don't know if they were just running empty on CE or not very bright, but the times where they die in a single match before they even get a single shot off is mildly embarrassing.

I'd blame Steam Release. Not only does it make it EASIER for casters to keep up with you, but I'm betting it's a CE hog.

I think matches need to pick up the pace towards the end of the match. Since mammet self destruct is kind of strong on towers and enemy base, I think if the amount of mammets spawned should increase as time goes on like in other MOBAs. But since players don't get stronger as time goes on like in other mobas, their HP should be reduced to stop there being so much time spent on mammets.

So say after 10 minutes, 2 mammets of each spawn each time with half health. After 15 minutes, 3 of each mammet spawns with 1/3rd health. But even with lower health, I think their damage to towers should stay the same.

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Originally Posted by Galaktica

I disagree with the first point slightly. While mid could use a nerf, everyone is also way too hung up on it. I've been on the winning side of multiple games where we've barely touched md. How? Because people actually bothered killing mammets and collecting fuel tanks in the north and south

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The mammets aren't killable fast enough to make up for the three or so tanks that spawn under mid, and the 1 tic you get alliance wide. Yeah, you may get 50, but the rest of the alliance is starved for fuel, while they manage to field 6 mechs.

Had a Ceruleum tank spawn on top of a building in south mid. . . Might wanna make sure that can't happen.

Yes Good Healers are very strong. Sadly as a Healer after I obtain the mount there will be little reason to queue as a Healer. I don't even get to Mech up beecause I have to be healing people on ground which is depressing..

Sure I can kite 4+ players but if they are seriously on me for more then 10 secs then they are just wasting time while my Alliance can push.. Bard and Mchs are also very strong compared to melee Dps so that should also be looked at.. South near the stairs they can free hit from the ledge against melee and Mechs, hug walls against Casters, Binding and knockbacks, and able to kite freely.

Anyway as it stands the mode feels okay with obvious flaws. Healers, Bards and Machinist need to be looked at in this mode.

How do you guys think of the mammets? are they useful? are they important to win the lane? I think not. but i want some opinion.

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Originally Posted by nitopome

How do you guys think of the mammets? are they useful? are they important to win the lane? I think not. but i want some opinion.

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They're important but should be a micro priority one over say CE and Mid. Usually I will fall back on them if one lane is being pushed and/or if there's too much heat at mid. If you have or are a healer then you can take better advantage of the mammet train by healing the vikings so they'll have a steady line of back up to nuke the towers when they eventually get there but again, getting the plan to work out isn't really worth it because it really only takes one skirmish with the enemy to throw it out the window.

Keep an eye on them but I wouldn't prioritize them until the enemies appear to be distracted. If your team is making a hard push with CCs and OPs then that's the perfect time to clear out mammets while the mechs push forward. That way while players focus on killing the OPs you can usually get a few teams of mammets to squeeze by and do their thing while the enemy focuses on the other threat.

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Originally Posted by Gospel

Keep an eye on them but I wouldn't prioritize them until the enemies appear to be distracted. If your team is making a hard push with CCs and OPs then that's the perfect time to clear out mammets while the mechs push forward. That way while players focus on killing the OPs you can usually get a few teams of mammets to squeeze by and do their thing while the enemy focuses on the other threat.

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Although, it only takes one healer who thinks the same thing to undo all that work by turning the last line of mammets into a brick wall.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

The mammets aren't killable fast enough to make up for the three or so tanks that spawn under mid, and the 1 tic you get alliance wide. Yeah, you may get 50, but the rest of the alliance is starved for fuel, while they manage to field 6 mechs.

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Fair enough, but I still personally stand by my point: mid is not an auto win. Capitalize on the enemies' mistakes, pick up fuel, push lanes, etc. Some people forsake everything else for the sake of mid and I stand by the idea that that's a mistake. That's just my opinion though.

Again, don't get me wrong, I agree with you, mid needs a nerf. Either that or buff the fuel tanks and mammets. I just think it would be very healthy for the current state of the game if more people knew there were other ways to contribute.

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Originally Posted by nitopome

How do you guys think of the mammets? are they useful? are they important to win the lane? I think not. but i want some opinion.

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They are useful to push first 2 towers, but entirely useless after that.
They just die too fast.

Mammets are a good disrupter honestly there is a possible strat with Cruisers, since you can only have 2 Opps and 2 Brutes max, in theory you could have cruisers protecting the mammets while the players next to the cruisers kill the enemies mammets. Since the player has to be in a specific location to attack your mammets it would be easy to swipe kill them with Cruisers.

Just a theory though I haven't seen it done.

Also, Mid isn't to OP it's just when you don't get mid you need to adapt your strategy, Tanks give you +10 and killing mammets get you some CE, if players just keep in mind the situation they are in they can adapt to it.

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

Had a Ceruleum tank spawn on top of a building in south mid. . . Might wanna make sure that can't happen.

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You can climb to the top of the buildings at south.

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Originally Posted by Galaktica

Some people forsake everything else for the sake of mid and I stand by the idea that that's a mistake.

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THIS so much. We'll be ready to make a final push, and in a strong position to do so and people go rabid over mid being contested. It's important, yes, but shouldn't outweigh making that final push for a win.

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Originally Posted by Sylvain

I would like to be able, as a healer, to target player from other groups in the alliance with a controller. It is extremely annoying to see team mate dying without being able to heal them

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You can select member of other groups with L1+ D-Pad left/right or by setting up another target filter to friendly players and select them manually.

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Originally Posted by nitopome

How do you guys think of the mammets? are they useful?

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Each mammet deals like 5% damage to the tower, means we would need like 10 waves to destroy a tower.
I believe people underestimate them, if you just take 1 group who pushes mammets at the start when all are going for generator, we managed twice to bring the tower down to 30% before they noticed and tried to push us back again.
Mammets for the enemy base are useless though, because of the spawning system and the inherent suicide timer which is often not enough to reach their base. You cant either make them add up and become a big mammet wave as the 2nd/3rd pair will just stop at a certain distance not catching up with the leading pair..

I agree with the idea of changing the mammets to make them more of a threat to towers and the core.

I'd personally want their self-destruct tune increased and ramp up spawns as the match goes on, until the point where they can easily blow up the towers and/or core in the last few minutes if they get support.

Matches tend to get stuck in a stalemate once both towers are gone (Especially if both Brute Justices are out and controlled by smart players), and would love it if more of them ended by an actual win then by time-out.

I think players should yield a % of CE from the killed players party.

But... mammets are fine, you can easily do 40% to the tower in the first minutes if you support them. You want to buff them? then you will be able to kill a tower just with them early game.

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Originally Posted by Nidelia

But... mammets are fine, you can easily do 40% to the tower in the first minutes if you support them. You want to buff them? then you will be able to kill a tower just with them early game.

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40% is 4 mammets waves that you need to be able to push to the tower. If the lane is defended, there's no way this could happen. You probably just had a match where the opposing alliance completly ignored a lane for some reason. If a single enemy healer is there to heal their mammets, your whole strategy will fail unless you dedicade 4 or 5 players for it... which will probably get the enemy's attention and make them come.

Realistically, if people battle for mid during the first few minutes, you can probably push one or two waves. After that, it all comes down to oppressors because people start to leave from mid.

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Originally Posted by Airget

Also, Mid isn't to OP it's just when you don't get mid you need to adapt your strategy, Tanks give you +10 and killing mammets get you some CE, if players just keep in mind the situation they are in they can adapt to it.

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Seeing how fast those barrels spawn i would say that controlling bottom mid if you cant get upper mid is seems kinda legit strat, if you order 1 person from each group in there and equally pick up barrels you can supply whole alliance that way too. But we all know this aint happening with pug's tho.

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Originally Posted by Fyce

40% is 4 mammets waves that you need to be able to push to the tower. If the lane is defended, there's no way this could happen. You probably just had a match where the opposing alliance completly ignored a lane for some reason. If a single enemy healer is there to heal their mammets, your whole strategy will fail unless you dedicade 4 or 5 players for it... which will probably get the enemy's attention and make them come.

Realistically, if people battle for mid during the first few minutes, you can probably push one or two waves. After that, it all comes down to oppressors because people start to leave from mid.

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Well, I wouldn't say that if it wasn't something which works. But it's not only a one try success. For now, it's really uncommun that peoplen goes down, at least on Chaos so it's completly free to do on most of the game. That's basically what I do each game at start and it allow you to gain 1-2 shots of Opressor with Mammets which is not bad imo.

The Xp reward is simply to low for the time one match takes. 9/10 matches im in allways use up the full 20 minutes and it gives your less xp than the old frontlines (witch most times used something between 10 and 15 minutes). I also dont find the new rival wings very fun, why im still doing it? Because since it came out the que for frontlines takes 15-30 minutes, before that it where often around 5 min with max 10min.

I honestly find less EXP a good thing, since it means the stupid bots will stay away from the mode.

Strat ppl using now is claim generator and have 4+ healers guarding it which is basically impossible to remove them so they keep that CE supply the whole match. Can't just send 2 cruise chasers after them because machina can't enter center. Hard to argue against stormblood healing being overpowered when you come across a stack of healers and there's no counter for it. We can collect CE using other methods but it's a huge boon for the generator team to have CE regen for all 6 of their parties all match, spamming us with machina in a hard offensive push that never ends.

SE, just do everyone a favor and get rid of mid. My patience for that one factor is quickly reaching it's end because when people can't capture mid, it turns into this:
http://media.riffsy.com/images/ef4c2...1969/tenor.gif
I've had so many matches today where we lose mid and then it turns into a 20 shouting match within our own team. "Omg, I keep running into mid by myself with no backup. Why do you guys suck? We're gonna lose! GG just give up let them win." Meanwhile, no one is collecting fuel tanks or pushing lanes, but mid is entirely the reason we're losing guys! Right?! ugh

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Originally Posted by Galaktica

SE, just do everyone a favor and get rid of mid.

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I wonder if it would be an improvement if there was no concept of resources at all. No generator, no gathering CE tanks or farming mammets. Just a cooldown timer on machina spawns instead of using a resource cost. Would make it easier for people to understand and focus on destroying or defending towers/core, though it's not really the game's fault when people focus gathering CE all match... even the last 90 seconds of the match when it would make no difference to gather more CE and they should be fighting/defending core :-(

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Originally Posted by Rufalus

I wonder if it would be an improvement if there was no concept of resources at all. No generator, no gathering CE tanks or farming mammets. Just a cooldown timer on machina spawns instead of using a resource cost. Would make it easier for people to understand and focus on destroying or defending towers/core, though it's not really the game's fault when people focus gathering CE all match... even the last 90 seconds of the match when it would make no difference to gather more CE and they should be fighting/defending core :-(

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I dunno, more CE could be the difference between one last oppressor missile drop landing on a core. Can't really say, I never go for the resources, I focus on defending the base or pushing lanes.

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Originally Posted by Galaktica

SE, just do everyone a favor and get rid of mid.

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Just make it a territory dispute instead of a interaction, this way you just need to push people away in order to control it. Making healer stacking less effective while letting the control of the point swing more between teams.

Loving this mode right now.

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Originally Posted by Ekimmak

I dunno, more CE could be the difference between one last oppressor missile drop landing on a core. Can't really say, I never go for the resources, I focus on defending the base or pushing lanes.

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Hmm ok I never considered that an oppressor which is already in position at enemy base might be CE starved and needing a recharge in the final moments of the match to land the winning blow. In that case I see your point that collecting CE in the last minute of the match could still be useful. lol so many variables to consider.

Turns out mammets can do stuff but um why can healers heal them? Another major overlooked flaw healing too strong in this mode.

edit - same xp regardless of match time too. Even a middle schooler can compare tools such as exp earned in frontlines time compared to this. Might as well be EA at this point.

Done ever notice how ravens get to mid first everytime even capturing it before falcons arrive? :P Enough Said.

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Originally Posted by Galaktica

I've had so many matches today where we lose mid and then it turns into a 20 shouting match within our own team. "Omg, I keep running into mid by myself with no backup. Why do you guys suck? We're gonna lose! GG just give up let them win." Meanwhile, no one is collecting fuel tanks or pushing lanes, but mid is entirely the reason we're losing guys! Right?! ugh

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There's been matches where I've had 6-7 people sitting on the generator, some healers too, while a gaggle of the enmy team is down below collecting CE tanks. The mentality that the gen is something so absolute is rather upsetting. And even in game where we are flooding in CE we have people just popping off mechs every opportunity and then dying somewhere stupid.

One change I think might best is if instead of a Tower loss, BJs be locked to core damage. Even if just 1% missing, because the times I can count where the moment Justice is available both are out and then systematically dying to stupid.