BLM needs more damage

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Originally Posted by Komaru_Tatoro

you guys where talking avout giving absurb dps potency buff thats why im thinking it maybe be too much that it can overcome the raid dps buffs. well one post from sylvain in another thread made a really good explanation. http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...=1#post4482462

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I don't even care anymore. I want ballance, but blm has been thrown under the bus for 2 years. If blm came out mildly ahead for even half an expansion, we've earned it. Let the x4 physical dps meta finally die.

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Originally Posted by Komaru_Tatoro

you guys where talking avout giving absurb dps potency buff thats why im thinking it maybe be too much that it can overcome the raid dps buffs. well one post from sylvain in another thread made a really good explanation. http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...=1#post4482462

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I wasn't talking about any absurd dps buff: my first post in this thread was just in response to you asking what's stopping a 4x BLM meta. BLM does need potency buffs: it and Samurai need to not only sit at the top, but there needs to be a bit of a gulf between them and the other jobs. I don't think at this point the meta will ever shift from NIN/DRG/BRD/MCH, but no job should end up in the spot BLM is where it's an active burden on the group.

It would be nice to see double or even triple caster comps become viable. Even if the blm is the only caster, it would at least add 200-400 group dps from healer dps

Permanent vulnerabilities should belong to the tanks, not DPS.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

Permanent vulnerabilities should belong to the tanks, not DPS.

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Actually, the slashing vulnerability is now fairly balanced across the jobs that bring it. When WAR was the only job that could apply it without losing damage the balancement was way worse. The issue of Piercing debuff is that only one job can provide it while 3 jobs deal piercing damage as their main output. RDM ogcds are all piercing too, being a 4th job able to deal piercing damage. Blunt damage debuff only does not causes issues because aside from some DoM's auto attacks, no other job does blunt.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

Permanent vulnerabilities should belong to the tanks, not DPS.

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How about... no.

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Originally Posted by Komaru_Tatoro

you guys where talking avout giving absurb dps potency buff thats why im thinking it maybe be too much that it can overcome the raid dps buffs. well one post from sylvain in another thread made a really good explanation. http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...=1#post4482462

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Let's assume for a moment you are correct. The solution then because nerf SMN. I know people get uppity with nerfs but these imbalances all stem from the devs utterly refusal to nerf jobs that get out of hand. The whole physical ranged meta happened after they kept buffing MCH/BRD against one another without any consideration for the long term impact. Just nerfing SMN doesn't fix the issue with SAM/BLM not dealing enough damage to warrant taking over their counterparts but it would at least make BLMs have something. I'm just sick of seeing jobs left to rot as our only solution to force the devs into buffing them. It's time to be proactive.

If you nerf SMN nothing would change for BLM it would just make ppl choose double ranged comp more

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Originally Posted by Zerathor

How about... no.

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Compelling.

Why should the Black Mage get it then? Shouldn't a support oriented ability instead go to Red Mages?

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

Compelling.

Why should the Black Mage get it then? Shouldn't a support oriented ability instead go to Red Mages?

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This is about blm not carrying enough weight, not rdm. Black mage in past games were slightly debuff oriented anyway, so it's not a stretch to apply magic vuln to a target.

If rdm got the magic vuln, the issue would still lie in the fact that smn does slightly more damage still while having a raise, leaving blm as the least valuable dps job still.

Plus sam still gets to have a slashing vuln on target, so if anything blm applying permanent magic vuln is what we should have had from the start of stormblood.

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Originally Posted by Zerathor

This is about blm not carrying enough weight, not rdm. Black mage in past games were slightly debuff oriented anyway, so it's not a stretch to apply magic vuln to a target.

If rdm got the magic vuln, the issue would still lie in the fact that smn does slightly more damage still while having a raise, leaving blm as the least valuable dps job still.

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Yes, but if Red Mage got the buff, then Black Mage in turn would be prime to receive a personal damage boost, while also benefitting from Red mage bringing a vulnerability.

It'd be a double win for Black mages, gaining the benefit of a vulnerability while also gaining the benefit of personal damage to maintain its status quo.

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Originally Posted by Zerathor

Plus sam still gets to have a slashing vuln on target, so if anything blm applying permanent magic vuln is what we should have had from the start of stormblood.

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By that logic both RDM and BLM should get magic vuln up that would overwrite each other, just like how SAM and NIN do.

I'm not particularly opposed to this.

I'd rather have BLM get some damage boost ^^ and RDM get debuff.
However, this would make SMN and BLM undesired without a RDM. Not sure the situation would improve much.
The case of piercing is a bit different because Brad and Mach bring a lot of utility. We cannot say the same about BLM and SMN.
Ofc if they'd reduce some caster CD heavily, such as mana shift, who knows.

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Originally Posted by Sylvain

I'd rather have BLM get some damage boost ^^ and RDM get debuff.
However, this would make SMN and BLM undesired without a RDM. Not sure the situation would improve much.
The case of piercing is a bit different because Brad and Mach bring a lot of utility. We cannot say the same about BLM and SMN.
Ofc if they'd reduce some caster CD heavily, such as mana shift, who knows.

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Actually SMN is pretty damn good as far as support goes, all things considered.

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

Actually SMN is pretty damn good as far as support goes, all things considered.

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That's the primary problem. They're decent enough utility, while having equal or greater damage to blm. Smn is just better blm, just like heavensward all over again. I'm not subbing to another heavensward where my job gets trashed.

Honestly theres absolutely nothing wrong with any of the classes you can literally do any content with whatever group you get and beat it. Now I could the point of threads like this if your job wasnt able to do these things and you actually needed the other classes to complete things but that isn't the case Every alt I have I have at least one job that everyone says sucks and I do just fine I'm not excluded from content Hell I was only ever kicked from one PuG and that was Wanderers Palace hard when I suggested we kill the first bosses adds when we wiped the first time. Bottom Line As long as you do your class follow mechanics and avoid damage and abuse the everliving hell out of swift cast when you can You wont be barred from anything but maybe a static and that's only if you don't do that static with friends. And that's really the point the game is more fun with friends but accessible to all.

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Originally Posted by kidalutz

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Stop.
Read thread.
Being able to do all content as any job is not an excuse for one job being the worst dps slot to bring ESPECIALLY when it's ONLY appeal is the dps they bring.

Also, this is about actual content like savage. I couldn't care less about the ballance in content that was designed to be facerolled. You could walk into the new 24 man raid as a tank, MT all the bosses, nearly black out drunk, and come in 5th place dps, as the tank, and easily clear. Job ballance doesn't matter there, it matters in progression.

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Originally Posted by Zerathor

Also, this is about actual content like savage. I couldn't care less about the ballance in content that was designed to be facerolled. You could walk into the new 24 man raid as a tank, MT all the bosses, nearly black out drunk, and come in 5th place dps, as the tank, and easily clear. Job ballance doesn't matter there, it matters in progression.

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Mostly about ultimate now as well, as that's where everyone is trying to progress right now, and blm is the worst job in bahamut, by a lot, especially considering caster's lower health pool requires extra attention from healers due to us also using convert.

So not only is blm lower raid dps contribution than every other job, but they also have harsher survival issues unless both your healers are gods, because if they're used to healing physical dmg parties only, blm will likely die a couple times to raid wide damage.

That's just stupid.

Our ability to claw our way through any content is a redundant point at this juncture and is extremely unhelpful. A lower percentile Smn should not out DPS a higher percentile Blm and yet here we are. Whms and Smns cried endlessly and loudly about the issues with their jobs and they got fixed. Why now is it always Whms and Smns that stomp in and demand everyone else stop complaining?

We Blm have been quiet and dealt with it long enough. It's high time we got vocal about our issues too and maybe get some attention to the current class imbalance.

You are a White Mage @ kidalutz and you are totally missing the point of this thread.
It is not about clearing content but the issues with blm as a job, and i don't know maybe how no groups hardly ever want blm anymore.
And yes smn do get their cake far more often then us, lol
A job that has lots of support + does more damage then a job that is suppose to just bring damage is very flawed..

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Originally Posted by OgruMogru

Whms and Smns that stomp in and demand everyone else stop complaining?

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Nobody is really stopping you from complaining.

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Originally Posted by dinnertime

Nobody is really stopping you from complaining.

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They could never! :p Forreal though you don't see how blanket statements like "all content is clearable by any class" only serves to be extremely frustrating and dissuasive? It's a just not...constructive in any way and sadly, the majority of people I see that just roll into threads of great ideas and lamentations just to drop this awesome little distillation of ultimate foresight and perspective happen to be smn and whm. I'm sure it's not literally the case and I suppose I'm gonna have to point out now that most of what I've said has been hyperbole. Shouldn't have to, but here we are.

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Originally Posted by OgruMogru

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Yeah. While it is true that you can clear content with any job, it doesn't mean the jobs have no problems.

I mainly play both WHM and SMN and I support jobs that are behind like BLM getting changes to make it desirable and better.

Meh wouldn't say damage is the big BLM problem so much as trying to be a turret in a game with a lot of movement mechanics. That's probably what needs sorting first. Not getting shafted by ley lines seeking AoEs would boost damage a lot in and of itself :)

Turret game is not the issue. The issue is that when you do the turret game, your damage is too low.

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Originally Posted by Maero

And yes smn do get their cake far more often then us, lol

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Cmon u know why that’s the case... smn are always fucked up after every major patch - can u say the same bout Blms? If u are honest Blms never have had this problem they currently have. It’s kinda funny how most of them react right now if they can’t just say, like they always do, “Deal with it“. - Never the less Blm will be top caster again soon even without all these threads... after all it’s Yoshi, isn’t it? Just lean back and wait...

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Originally Posted by Neela

Cmon u know why that’s the case... smn are always fucked up after every major patch - can u say the same bout Blms? If u are honest Blms never have had this problem they currently have. It’s kinda funny how most of them react right now if they can’t just say, like they always do, “Deal with it“. - Never the less Blm will be top caster again soon even without all these threads... after all it’s Yoshi, isn’t it? Just lean back and wait...

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You know damn well blm has been less valuable than smn since heavensward came out. Pretty much all casters have been under the boot since 3.3, but even under that boot, smn was ahead of blm. Even in the start of stormblood when your damage was behind, it was only by a small ammount and you still had raise.

Agreed with Zerathor, he speaks the truth

Seems like a QQ thread

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Originally Posted by AbelArchaniEA

Seems like a QQ thread

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We've mentioned possible fixes. All we need is for devs to recognize this issue and fix the game. If we don't complain about it, they'll never fix it because they clearly don't run number tests on jobs.

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Originally Posted by Zerathor

You know damn well blm has been less valuable than smn since heavensward came out. Pretty much all casters have been under the boot since 3.3, but even under that boot, smn was ahead of blm. Even in the start of stormblood when your damage was behind, it was only by a small ammount and you still had raise.

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Well thats actually not true we were behind on the release like always until they buffed ruin lll and gave our aoes the "i dont care how many targets" boni -> we became aoe Kings yes but Blm was still stronger in single burst - actually they were a good balanced Team indeed but we definitly wasnt ahead so please dont even try whining bout that.

I can feel your current pain cause lol thats our usual life but you shouldnt fake passed situations like that ...

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Originally Posted by Neela

Well thats actually not true we were behind on the release like always until they buffed ruin lll and gave our aoes the "i dont care how many targets" boni -> we became aoe Kings yes but Blm was still stronger in single burst - actually they were a good balanced Team indeed but we definitly wasnt ahead so please dont even try whining bout that.

I can feel your current pain cause lol thats our usual life but you shouldnt fake passed situations like that ...

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I was 100% accurate with my post. And smn should never under any circumstance have even EQUAL dps to blm. Aoe or single target. Lose resurrection and we'll talk about ballance.

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Originally Posted by Neela

Cmon u know why that’s the case... smn are always fucked up after every major patch - can u say the same bout Blms? If u are honest Blms never have had this problem they currently have. It’s kinda funny how most of them react right now if they can’t just say, like they always do, “Deal with it“. - Never the less Blm will be top caster again soon even without all these threads... after all it’s Yoshi, isn’t it? Just lean back and wait...

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Blms have had to learn to lean back and wait because thus far it's always been Smn making the most noise. They cry constantly and I'm not saying the complaints were not valid because they absolutely were and I'm really genuinely glad Smn is in a great spot right now. Maybe Blms should start haranguing Yoshi P at every Q+A and liveletter asking the same questions over and over for the next 3 years and we'll actually get some of our issues addressed. If we can compete against Smn still crying over Egi glams :p

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Originally Posted by Neela

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You clearly weren't here for HW release, where we became completely immobile coming from ARR (we barely had procs due to F4 being the primary spell), we had utterly no spellspeed and incredibly tight timers (AF/UI were 10 seconds back then) the there was no Between the Lines to salvage a bad Ley Lines (making us even more immobile). The job was so utterly broken they had to fix it by extending the AF/UI timers to 12 seconds. 3.0 BLM was a horrid mess and there was a lot of disheartened Black Mages back then.
We're just normally quiet about it.

I find this so incredibly hypocritical too. Is complaining about job issues a summoner exclusive? Do you gloss about the issues other jobs have, or is selective memory at play? Bard had issues with WM when it came out (dps loss in 3.0), BLM had the issues I mentioned, MCH and all around low baseline dps and old hypercharge wasn't that good, AST was borderline unusable until 3.2 due to rng cards and very low potency on the healing spells. Many other jobs have issues on each expansion- I can extend the list, if you want to. 2.0 War, Brd stacking in very early ARR (limit break penalty is here for a reason), Nin eclipsing other melee on release, Drg's 4 patches of uselessness, Smn being terrible at the end of ARR, MNK dealing less dps than DRG with almost no support on HW release... Hell, Black Mage had the same issue of tight timers in 3.0 and 4.0 (and twice they had to extend AF/UI duration to accommodate for it). This is an illusion you have that "only summoner has it bad". Most jobs have it as bad at one point or another- and in term of "high highs" for patches they're good on, Black Mage has seen any limelight since god damned Gordias.
Making a thread highlighting job issues for the unhappy Black Mages (possibly the worst job in the game right now, and I'm confident almost no one will clear Ultimate with it except maybe at the end for the challenge), or Monks, or Samurai, or Red Mages is important so the devs take notice. It was fine when we had half the threads on the front page (and even in Reddit) being basically "fix summoner" or "buff summoner" though, right?

This isn't a competition. While I also have some interest in the state of Red Mage and Summoner (and, I guess, Bard) because I play these jobs, it's not about pushing one out in favour of the other (which is the issue now). It's about being able to excel regardless of my choice of job.

And this "Yoshi plays BLM he'll make it op" talk is utterly dishonest. He's not a particularly good Black Mage to begin with (he doesn't have the time for it, most likely), which already limits his ability to understand what the job actually needs- and if he was favouring it, we wouldn't have the issues we have now, nor issues at HW launch, nor have fallen out of favour at the end of 3.3, nor being one of the worst jobs during Creator (arguably worse than summoner, mind you, which was favoured back then for progression).

(And if I had to put my finger why Summoners complain the most is because the job has one of the weakest identities out of all jobs. Is it a dot class? Is it pet class? Is it a sustained dps with ramp class? Is it a burst class? Is it selfish dps? Is it support? It's been all of these at one point on another. Hell, when I started playing, people mentioned Summoner's "long ramp time" of like 3 minutes to overtake other dps. Come HW, and it's a job with clear burst windows. In both cases, it's dot-centric job with a priority queue and mostly selfish dps. Now it's about summoning Bahamut in precalculated windows with some support tools... the job changes flavour every season, so when it's not the flavour a portion of the summoner playerbase enjoys, they complain- with every right to do so, and I'm glad they do since it did work to some extent).

By the end of HW, BLM and SMN became close to equal becausw we FINALLY got the neccessary SpS and Crit to mitigate our worst issues. And YoshiP did directly address some issues both at launch (making Enochian from being a clunky, unpleasant mess like in HW to "oh hey, I'm being rewarded for playing my Black Mage the way I always should. Neat!") and in 4.05 (The cast time nerf was a GODSEND) but SB caused issues to crop up, especially with SMN's massive buffs.

The biggest takeaway is that turrets aren't viable, and BLM is the ultimate Turret... for better or for worse, since our only mobility options are Scathe and Triplecast, but they're still insufficient. One of two solutions should happen:

Help BLM mobility or increase BLM damage by 10-20%. It's mechanics thwt fuck us up, but the latter option comes with the risk of turning BLM into a must take for more turrety fights (like OS2).

I had a few ideas that might help BLM, it's basically a Buff that can only be applied to DPS however it's not a buff that helps the DPS rather it amplifies the BLM's elemental powers as long as the party member remains alive.

The idea with BLM is easily Fire, Ice, Thunder, Every 1 min and 30 second from when battle start you build up your Enochain, when you have had Enochain up for 1min and 30 seconds you can apply your first buff to a DPS.

Thunder could have 3 stages, Potency, Duration, Instance abilities that doesn't influence global Cooldown.

Ice would be Increased Blizzard IV charges, Freeze becomes a placed DoT and Instance MP recovery

Fire would be increased Fire III proc, Fire IV potency, Flare potency

The downside of course is in order to gain all 3 buffs you would need to have the buff up for a total of 1 min with the 2nd and 3rd tier being gained every 30 seconds but you also can't apply the next buff til you have had enochain up for another 1 min 30 seconds.

Now maybe it would make BLM to powerful but it could easily be said that you can't apply the buff to another BLM, it can only be applied to DPS, so you'll only be able to use all 3 inf 8 man trials and when using it you have to hope that the other 3 members stay alive since if they die or you die you lose the buff completely and have to rebuild it.

In my mind I feel this would allow BLM to remain the "selfish DPS" with it's own build up mechanic that relies heavily on the survival of the party.

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Another simpler idea is Triple Cast can reset when using Scathe, this would allow moments when BLM need to move but can still use Scathe and opportunity to gain a "free charge" of Triple Cast to use again while on the run rather than Scathe.

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Originally Posted by Zerathor

I was 100% accurate with my post. And smn should never under any circumstance have even EQUAL dps to blm. Aoe or single target. Lose resurrection and we'll talk about ballance.

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If ress is affecting damage output, it is almost same than saying smn should do more damage because dying is more punishing. IMO all jobs should offer same raid dps output with optimal gameplay. Not if somebody happen to be bad and dying all of the time. In ultimate if even one person die with phoenix buff, boss will most likely enrage so ress is not gonna help anything in these cases.