Tank dps harrasment

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Originally Posted by Miste

Sorry, but even though OP mentioned an EX primal they also mentioned being kicked for simple dungeon runs over it which is ridiculous. A tank in tank stance still does DPS so it isn't like they would do zero, it just isn't as much as DPS stance. I mean I totally advocate tanks to learn when they can use DPS stance instead to do more damage, but kicking or trying to force it on people in dungeons is just silly.

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I never said anything about anything except OP's griefs about getting kicked from a shin PF.

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Originally Posted by BigRed5392

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Any form of harassment is against the ToS. Again, some people are truly try-hards when it comes to fflogs and letting that attitude bleed in DF (specifically for dungeon roulettes) just tells you what kind of people they truly are. True, being kicked because of that sucks, and can be reported ONLY if they openly mentioned they were using a third party tool. However, people's attitude will never change no matter what you do. I'd like to mention that both sides of the spectrum are equally bad, the toxi no-parser attitude vs the omg-parse attitudes are equally annoying as f. There's a nice middle ground where people parse when it matters and it's only concerned about DPS when it matters. Or people that just don't give a flying f*c* and just play the game.

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Originally Posted by HazyAssaulter

If you are parsing grey on fflogs, you are being carried by those in your party who are not. No assumptions being made

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Honestly, unless the OP was advertising for a static or wanting to become some bleeding-edge raider or boasting about how they were the Big Cheese of Tanks, FFLogs and numbers and percentiles really don’t matter for those who are more casual-oriented, which is what I think the OP is. I don’t use casual in any sort of derogatory sense here—they are just not a person that want to min-max or run Ex trials or Savage in any sort of speed/parse run sense (which, btw, they mention nothing about Savage so bringing up V4S and tank stance usage in V4S is completely irrelevant to this conversation).

Again, unless the OP is failing to mitigate, losing hate, or dying to stupid stuff, I would not consider them being “carried” in a PF ShinEx farm group. “Carried” is when you literally have zero clue as to what you are doing, and make the 7 other players do all of your work for you. Could they have not-grey parses? Sure. But unless they are losing aggro IN stance, and taking a lot of unnecessary damage/dying a lot, they aren’t really being “carried”.

People can post numbers for Ex trials all day long on FFLogs, but really, the raiding community doesn’t put as much stock in them as they do actual Savage content—Ex trials have become extremely midcore-bordering-on-softcore as of late. And even then, a serious raider won’t just look at a number and say “oh well you’re grey so you automatically suck”—they will look deeper: did the person die, what was the comp, what were the healers doing, etc.. But again, I digress, because this conversation is not about Savage.

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Originally Posted by Hannia

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I wouldn't hold your breath. Players like him enjoy blowing things out of proportion, taking things out of context and twisting words to fit their narrative. He's going to keep making baseless assumptions on your skill as a player based on mere conjecture. His posts and people that post like him serve only one purpose: to stir the pot and troll people. Your better off ignoring anything hw posts. Sorry about your rough groups, just keep doing your thing. If you have that many weapons from shinryu, you clearly know what your doing. Take care.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

Honestly, unless the OP was advertising for a static or wanting to become some bleeding-edge raider or boasting about how they were the Big Cheese of Tanks, FFLogs and numbers and percentiles really don’t matter for those who are more casual-oriented, which is what I think the OP is. I don’t use casual in any sort of derogatory sense here—they are just not a person that want to min-max or run Ex trials or Savage in any sort of speed/parse run sense (which, btw, they mention nothing about Savage so bringing up V4S and tank stance usage in V4S is completely irrelevant to this conversation).

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My point is more that people who are hosting PFs have the right to kick anyone, for any reason. If the host of the PF isn't allowing anyone in who is parsing low, that's their prerogative. OP seemed to feel that he shouldn't be judged by his DPS, and I did my best to explain the situation.

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"DPS is just the DPS's responsibility" is the worst mindset to have. DPS is everyone's responsibility. If OP doesn't want to be discriminated against because of his fflogs rankings, he needs to git gud and improve them.

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I never said anything about anything except OP's griefs about getting kicked from a shin PF.

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I ask again nicely, please stop I didn't mean for this to become a parser/anti parser thread I just wanted to know why it was acceptable to get kicked out of dungeons/groups for tanking in shield oath and not doing "X dps" (or in my mind high end savage world first dps). But as I just asked, please just drop it I don't want anyone to be fighting.

I can only assume that they felt they could complete the dungeon in a significantly faster time with virtually any other tank, despite that replacement being equally random (meaning the stochastic average must have been well above, as their next replacement would have a guaranteed 5 minutes before being kickable, too) and requiring additional queue time, or they had a tank friend ready to go who they didn't bother to wait for or hadn't yet logged in previously, and were therefore more sensitive to any inefficiencies.

If the prior, though, I have to ask: Were you being disturbingly overcautious in your use of tank stance and excessive in use of enmity tools? Because, unless the run would literally be faster with another healer or DPS instead, I've yet to see a tank kicked for not dealing enough damage in a simple dungeon, despite having done thousands of dungeon runs. And even that tends to be because they're going afk all the time or are otherwise very slow to pull, making the time consumed absolutely apparent, not because of DPS itself.

...That or because they wanted to quickly get a friend their daily roulette bonus (I've reported several of these cases to no avail, after losing 1 to 2 in a kick vote just outside the final boss room over an until-then smooth run and having to wait for their friend to show up).

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Originally Posted by Lilseph

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calling out bullying behavior does help. And I personally never seen toxic "non parser" just ppl having a different opinion, and being insulted for it.

I wrote earlier that i personally don't care if tank stance dances or not. If they doing their tank role that is all i care about. This is my opinion. I mainly dps and do as much dps as my gear/skill allows. I personally never been kicked from extremes, coil, and i skipped savage in HW.

the dude tried to use the opinion to belittle me making assumptions on my game play. Calling it out is a good thing, though it can change everyone, it does set a standard of play/attitude. No one should be kicked over fflogs... those who do should be reported.

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Originally Posted by HazyAssaulter

My point is more that people who are hosting PFs have the right to kick anyone, for any reason. If the host of the PF isn't allowing anyone in who is parsing low, that's their prerogative. OP seemed to feel that he shouldn't be judged by his DPS, and I did my best to explain the situation.

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yes and no. You can't use parser/fflogs to kick ppl as those are against the tos. And would be consider vote kick abuse if you do.

Yoshi-p clearly stated using parser is a "don't ask don't tell" to not abuse it. Keep that talk in your static, not some random pf.

Im just saying this now i can literally go into end tier content with no knowledge of tanking and subpar gear and still show up on logs as blue button mashing basic combos out of tank stance grey logs are a pure sign that you are doing something wrong don't take the replies as insults go to fflogs and look at your rotation and improve it from there. The site isnt meant for epeen outside of 95% its used as a self help and development tool in order for you to improve how you play the game

Endplay the more you learn and develop your rotation the more desirable you are for parties across the board

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Originally Posted by BigRed5392

yes and no. You can't use parser/fflogs to kick ppl as those are against the tos. And would be consider vote kick abuse if you do.

Yoshi-p clearly stated using parser is a "don't ask don't tell" to not abuse it. Keep that talk in your static, not some random pf.

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Actually yes you can as long as you list it as difference in playstyles

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Originally Posted by Selova

I wouldn't hold your breath. Players like him enjoy blowing things out of proportion, taking things out of context and twisting words to fit their narrative. He's going to keep making baseless assumptions on your skill as a player based on mere conjecture. His posts and people that post like him serve only one purpose: to stir the pot and troll people. Your better off ignoring anything hw posts. Sorry about your rough groups, just keep doing your thing. If you have that many weapons from shinryu, you clearly know what your doing. Take care.

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Its not trolling hes just stating a fact that if its happened more than once there is clearly a problem on the OPs side

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Originally Posted by Hannia

I ask again nicely, please stop I didn't mean for this to become a parser/anti parser thread I just wanted to know why it was acceptable to get kicked out of dungeons/groups for tanking in shield oath and not doing "X dps" (or in my mind high end savage world first dps). But as I just asked, please just drop it I don't want anyone to be fighting.

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Its just a difference in playstyles in order to counteract being kicked so much just work to improve your dps people wont change and the game is designed around healers and tanks doing more dps than youd think self improvement goes a long way and curbs what has happened to you as for df stuff and hunts noone knows but you may or may not have been the problem all it comes down too is the community said nay so just try you best to fix it

If a Party Finder wants only people with good numbers on FFLogs they should state that in the Party Finder. Not doing so and suddenly kicking someone that joined for having bad numbers is indeed something they can be reported for. Frankly, as has been stated already, FFLogs is not condoned by Square Enix and therefore using it to judge people and exclude them for having bad numbers is a reportable offense, solely for using FFLogs as a reason. You say "git gud, problem solved", I say "griefing, report them". Simple as that.

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Originally Posted by Hannia

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let me show you.

After 2 years tanks are being prove tanking on dps stance are much more rewarded that tanking on tank stance, why? Bcs you can survive and keep emity pretty easy without It, dps stance is meta, the dps gain is masive and the performance betwen both stances is unbalance.
while most ppl dont really care for others is like you being lazy or you dont know how to play you job properly.

As a tank main Who clear all excep ultimate i hate a lot this meta, but i accept the reward on follow It is pretty Big and tank stance tanking is almost pointless, unless SE change It theres is nothing we can do.
saddly there is no middle ground on this matter, if you follow the meta properly you can avoid all the drama from those Who Kick You, but if you stay on shield for everything Well... You have to pray the Next party only have ppl Who dont mind.

In the end its not a question ppl dont like you tank style (the whole thing of "tanking Styles" its just stupid) its a question of you tanking in a ineficient "Style" and some ppl dont like that.

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Originally Posted by Joe777

If a Party Finder wants only people with good numbers on FFLogs they should state that in the Party Finder. Not doing so and suddenly kicking someone that joined for having bad numbers is indeed something they can be reported for. Frankly, as has been stated already, FFLogs is not condoned by Square Enix and therefore using it to judge people and exclude them for having bad numbers is a reportable offense, solely for using FFLogs as a reason. You say "git gud, problem solved", I say "griefing, report them". Simple as that.

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The issue is people don't play jobs as intended or designed tank stance is literally only useful for prog or casual content outside of that using it just slows down everyone we will take fflogs out of the equation and just state op was literally in tank stance the whole time i will state personally outside of initial pull i will kick anyone doing savage content purely in tank stance

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Originally Posted by Arkturius

The issue is people don't play jobs as intended or designed tank stance is literally only useful for prog or casual content outside of that using it just slows down everyone we will take fflogs out of the equation and just state op was literally in tank stance the whole time i will state personally outside of initial pull i will kick anyone doing savage content purely in tank stance

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If someone in the group can do better it is within someone's rights to inform them where they can improve, with or without a parser. It's using the parser to judge people that is the violation. Now if after suggesting improvements they refuse to change/do better then you can kick them and they can't say otherwise. I myself sometimes notice someone using an improper rotation in a dungeon and give advice and tips and then let them grow off that at their discretion. It's just a dungeon, no big deal. If they haven't improved though by the time they got to endgame content, well, I tried to help them but they didn't take it to heart apparently.

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Originally Posted by Joe777

If someone in the group can do better it is within someone's rights to inform them where they can improve, with or without a parser. It's using the parser to judge people that is the violation. Now if after suggesting improvements they refuse to change/do better then you can kick them and they can't say otherwise. I myself sometimes notice someone using an improper rotation in a dungeon and give advice and tips and then let them grow off that at their discretion. It's just a dungeon, no big deal. If they haven't improved though by the time they got to endgame content, well, I tried to help them but they didn't take it to heart apparently.

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Or kick the person for difference in playstyles and replace them with someone else immediately as long as you dont say hey your dps is rubbish it has no link to parsing due to the nature that parsing is treated its safer to just kick instead of saying anything

Are we certain that FFLogs are against the ToS, because that sounds like pure speculation to me. Parsers, yes, are technically against the ToS, but as FFLogs is only an information dump I can't for the life of me see how looking at that and using the information provided is against the ToS in any way. Not without being able to prove that the person using the information is the one who parsed and submitted it in the first place.

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Originally Posted by Arkturius

Or kick the person for difference in playstyles and replace them with someone else immediately as long as you dont say hey your dps is rubbish it has no link to parsing due to the nature that parsing is treated its safer to just kick instead of saying anything

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Kicking for no good reason is also griefing, because it hinders the victim's gameplay. If a group wants like-minded people, they should specify.

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Originally Posted by ElHeggunte

Are we certain that FFLogs are against the ToS, because that sounds like pure speculation to me. Parsers, yes, are technically against the ToS, but as FFLogs is only an information dump I can't for the life of me see how looking at that and using the information provided is against the ToS in any way. Not without being able to prove that the person using the information is the one who parsed and submitted it in the first place.

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So long as said info is entirely gathered by parsing, then yes it is a violation. Guilty by association, as they say.

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Originally Posted by HazyAssaulter

Why should it be acceptable for people to have to carry you if you refuse to improve? Asking for a shin ex perspective

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Can you tryhard raiders go one minute without harassing people for not subscribing to the MLG mentality of gaming? Where in the world did the TC say anything about wanting to "be carried"? The only time tanking in Sword Oath/Deliverance is remotely acceptable is A) The tank forgot to switch stances upon entry or B) The tank established hate in the early going. Any other time is cause for setting that tank straight about what his/her main purpose is, and it's not setting a high score in FFLogs.

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Originally Posted by Hannia

I know that this is a touchy subject, but what is with the mindset of everyone expecting tanks to do more dps?

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If you know the fight and your class, there's no reason not to focus on dps as a tank. Using tank stance and enmity combo as little as possible will significantly increase your dps, and, assuming you know how to use your CDs, you won't be taking much more damage than you would normally.

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Originally Posted by Arkturius

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Honestly, from what we know based on the OP's post, they just got dealt a bad hand of cards and ended up in groups with not-so-savory individuals. There isn't enough information to start throwing out accusations about whether or not it was a problem with the OP or not. The person i quoted was claiming facts on the OP's situation on how they were being carried based on nothing but pure conjecture. It's obvious the OP is venting frustration and rightfully so, some of the people in this community can wear on your nerves fast, especially the "Meta fanboys" where you are treated like sub-human garbage if you parse anything below orange in non-savage/EX content. It's getting kind of old honestly.

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Originally Posted by HazyAssaulter

" If OP doesn't want to be discriminated against because of his fflogs rankings, he needs to git gud and improve them.

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Lol what? Do you understand bunch of player in FF community who play in PS4? WE do no have the ability to improve are rank at will without needing a third party friend or whatever. This already is a issues.

Something that people keep forgetting. Every content in this game, from Normal to Savage (Excluding Ultimate) is designed in a way that it can be cleared with no tank or healer dps. Not with minimum item level ofc.

If clearing content is your main goal, tanks and healers dps shouldn't matter so much unless you want to clear content with minimum item level or going for speed kills.

OP already stated that they have killed Shinryu EX, has several weapons from there and the mount. It means that they have enough experience with the fight mechanics as a tank. If OP wanted to be a better tank, they would have learned how to tank stance by now, but that is not needed in most content. Not defending OP. There are rooms for improvement. Watching PoVs of good players should help.

Also, don't expect high dps anything from PF/DF :)

If people feel its acceptable to kick a tank because his/her DPS is low. Is it also acceptable for a tank to kick a DPS because he/she can't tank? Or a healer to kick a DPS because he/she can't heal? Because, the DPS is OBVIOSLY being carried since they can't do those things, right?!
/sarcasm

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Originally Posted by Mavrias

People are allowed to kick you out of their own parties (hunts/shinryu/savage groups). So the only thing you have a leg to stand on for is dungeon pugs, and even then, difference in playstyle is a thing.

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Yoshida even stated using parser/ fflogs as a vote kick reason is against ToS. Since fflogs/parser are against the Tos more so if used to harrass people.

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Originally Posted by ElHeggunte

Are we certain that FFLogs are against the ToS, because that sounds like pure speculation to me. Parsers, yes, are technically against the ToS, but as FFLogs is only an information dump I can't for the life of me see how looking at that and using the information provided is against the ToS in any way. Not without being able to prove that the person using the information is the one who parsed and submitted it in the first place.

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look uo every QA live letter, everyone one has a "please add parser" question, each time he stats no, and adds that parsers are a "don't ask, don't tell" if you use it to harass people, it against tos. we going on 5 years he has been saying this.

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Originally Posted by BigRed5392

Yoshida even stated using parser/ fflogs as a vote kick reason is against ToS. Since fflogs/parser are against the Tos more so if used to harrass people.

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Dont need a parser to see someone in tank stance the whole time lol.

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Originally Posted by Hannia

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You were doing nothing wrong. I prefer tanks to be in tank stance (I'm a healer) during dungeons because it just makes everyone's life easier. Please ignore or report these jerks using parsers to harass other players. Keep doing what you are doing. You are actually playing the job as it's meant to be played. Unless you are in endgame raid content there's no reason why you can't be in tank stance.

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Originally Posted by HazyAssaulter

If it was an assumption, I'm sure OP would have corrected me, but it's not. Some might find it rude to give honest feedback, but I'd prefer someone to be straight up with me than censor themselves for the sake of my sensitivities.

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Thanks…I believe I will take your advice and do just that. See, the issue here is that the OP specifically mentioned the kicking was from a dungeon and hunts. While they have mentioned they did good enough to farm Shinryu EX, you are just focusing on that specifically. And if I recall, FF logs doesn’t automatically update – somebody has to be parsing or uploading the data. It is possible that whatever has been uploaded on FFLOGs is not representative of everything they have done in their time playing. OP already indicated that they didn’t even know that they were even on FFLOGs in the first place.

And wait a minute…in casual content, tanks who don’t lose aggro and stay in tank stance are being carried? Are you serious with this? In casual content? Because if I remember, tanks still have to be attacking their mobs to hold hate, right? Yeah…I though so. You are just picking a tiny piece of the OP’s statement and twisting this conversation into something else. It is players like you that are poisoning this community. It’d be one thing if this was EX/Savage content, as you keep mentioning again and again and again and again. But this is casual content. If the tank doesn’t want to stance dance in casual content – I had to underline that just so you can see the point that has been made multiple times, then no, people do not have the right to kick and I’d happily report them for harassment and parsing myself. No in casual content – PFs, yes, because it’s the PF leader and their rules. But if this was a DF issue…then people kicking for such a stupid reason are the ones that need to be suspended from being in the DF in the first place. Same with hunts. I don’t even know why somebody would even do a kick from a hunt over tank DPS. That is by far one of the stupidest, most pettiest things I’ve ever heard done by a FFXIV player.

Hey OP, first if someone is kicking you from a dungeon or hunt party for low dps. There is something going on, either there is more two it or they are jerks. The community in general doesn’t care about dps in that content and hunts are based off enmity and damage so tank stance is better. This is a basic opener for PLD, obviously some sheltron/shield swipes can be used throughout. http://ffxivrotations.com/1876 Once you get Requiescat back up restart the opener at that point. Simply rotating between royal authority combos and goring blade combos usually two royals then one goring repeat. You can do this in tank or DPS stance either way it should help. If your mp is low when Requiescat is coming back up use sheltron a few times to regain some quick mp. If the DPS or healer aggro is creeping up on you have your tank provoke shirk to help or switch a couple of the royal authority combos to rage of halone combos and then go back to the DPS combos. If you have questions about CDs rotation if you want to try out DPS stance on shinryu EX I can go over that with you too. Don't be discouraged :)

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Originally Posted by Mavrias

Dont need a parser to see someone in tank stance the whole time lol.

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nothing wrong with tank stance. that just my two gil.

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Originally Posted by BigRed5392

nothing wrong with tank stance. that just my two gil.

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OP was kicked from Shin farms and hunt parties for doing low dps and being in shield oath too much by their own admission. PF leaders have the right to kick for literally any reason they choose. While theres nothing wrong with tank stance inherently, it is not harassment to be kicked from someone's party if they feel you shouldnt be in it so much. And it's very easy to see a tank is not doing as much dps as they could without using a parser if they are in sitting tank stance for the majority of a fight.

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Originally Posted by Mavrias

OP was kicked from Shin farms and hunt parties for doing low dps and being in shield oath too much by their own admission. PF leaders have the right to kick for literally any reason they choose. While theres nothing wrong with tank stance inherently, it is not harassment to be kicked from someone's party if they feel you shouldnt be in it so much. And it's very easy to see a tank is not doing as much dps as they could without using a parser if they are in sitting tank stance for the majority of a fight.

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OP was kicked out of a Shinryu EX farm party before they even went in because they looked up their dps on fflogs, saw grey, and basically said "gtfo scrub". Difficult content is really the only place someone needs to do well in, and dungeons and hunts are not that content. OP was legit wrongfully kicked. So what if they stayed in tank stance, you don't need to speed run dungeons or speed kill hunts. The Shinryu EX farm group judged OP before they even saw them in action over parser data. Do I really need to say any more?

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Originally Posted by Joe777

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I mean I specifically mentioned not dungeon content but continue to go off on me about dungeons if it makes you happy I suppose. And again, party leaders have the right to kick for any reason they choose. I can kick someone from my party right now for any arbitrary reason like "I dislike your glamour" or "my fc mate is looking for a group." Because for that specific party? I make the rules. Additionally you can report someone til your fingers bleed, but Square Enix cannot tell them what websites they can and can't look at and what decisions they make based on what they see on said sites. It's why people can put up pfs that say "will be looking up logs" all day long.

Its harassment to continuously berate, talk down to, or pursue arguments with someone after they've asked you to stop, go out of your way to ruin their reputation, etc. It is not harassment to kick them from a party you created.

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Originally Posted by Mavrias

OP was kicked from Shin farms and hunt parties for doing low dps and being in shield oath too much by their own admission. PF leaders have the right to kick for literally any reason they choose. While theres nothing wrong with tank stance inherently, it is not harassment to be kicked from someone's party if they feel you shouldnt be in it so much. And it's very easy to see a tank is not doing as much dps as they could without using a parser if they are in sitting tank stance for the majority of a fight.

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You have a point - PF party, PF leader's rules. With that being said, if the MT is holding hate and doing their mechanics correctly, kicking them over DPS specifically is inherently wrong. It is harassment if a tank is being kicked over DPS, because the tank's primary job is to hold hate for the auto-attacks/tankbusters...their primary job is not to DPS. That being said, healer/tank DPS helps in content, but I don't agree that a tank...or really healer should be kicked solely over DPS numbers. That's on DPS jobs...if they're not doing the damage, then they are messing up. Let add to this by saying if the tanks or healers aren't contributing to DPS at all - then that's a different issue entirely, and they're not helping the party at all.

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Originally Posted by MeganLynn

If people feel its acceptable to kick a tank because his/her DPS is low [...]

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I think this new meta around tank DPS is getting out of hand, but it's not without it's merits and isn't totally unreasonable. As a tank you can only hold so much threat and mitigate so much damage before any additional action becomes redundant. As a healer, you can only recover so much HP before you start overhealing (or literally just wind up sitting around for 10-20 seconds until someone takes enough damage to be worth healing).

Once you hit a certain threat threshold or you're in a position where no one is in immediate need of healing, why wouldn't you fill those globals with extra damage instead of sitting on your hands or performing wasted actions? More damage also has the direct benefit of adding to the eHP of the entire group: the faster the mob dies, the less damage it deals, and the less HP the healers have to recover.

Your "examples" also fall flat when you consider that tanks and healers have decent damage capabilities baked right into their toolkits (largely so they can actually solo content without taking years to kill something) where as DPS barely have anything in the way of damage mitigation or HP recovery. You're comparing apples to airships.

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Originally Posted by BigRed5392

look uo every QA live letter, everyone one has a "please add parser" question, each time he stats no, and adds that parsers are a "don't ask, don't tell" if you use it to harass people, it against tos. we going on 5 years he has been saying this.

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FFLogs =/= In-game Parser. I know SE's stance on parsers. I've never seen them say anything about third-party sites like FFLogs even though the data was obtained via parsing. Largely because there's no proof that the person talking about the logs is in any way parsing themselves.

Using the information to harass someone is one thing (because harassment is against the ToS regardless), but I've never heard of general use of FFLogs being against the ToS. And no, "guilt by association" doesn't apply here unless SE explicitly said using FFLogs is against the rules in addition to openly parsing.

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Originally Posted by HazyAssaulter

If OP doesn't want to be discriminated against because of his fflogs rankings, he needs to git gud and improve them.

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This is why we can't have nice things. This attitude right here is why the devs are so against in-game parsers and why a significant portion of the player-base is against them, too.


There is absolutely no reason to kick a tank over their dps in dungeons or hunts. If a group needs their tank's dps to clear casual content, there has to be something seriously wrong with the dps.