How's Ultimate?

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Originally Posted by Steviejd

You realise that Twintania isn't the whole fight? That is only phase 1.

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Onslaughter in A8S was also only Phase 1 of a fight with 7 phases (8 if you count the softenrage as a phase). We needed alot more time to progress this first phase in A8S. When Coil Ultimate is really just 3 or 4 phases long, then our current progress is much faster.

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Originally Posted by KarstenS

Onslaughter in A8S was also only Phase 1 of a fight with 7 phases (8 if you count the softenrage as a phase).

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You were complaining about not seeing all the mechanics in the game yet have only got phase 1 to 27%. And you say that your progress is faster than in A8S, making it sound like A8s is harder. There is a reason why the top prog groups haven't beaten it yet...clue? It's hard.

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Originally Posted by Steviejd

You were complaining about not seeing all the mechanics in the game yet have only got phase 1 to 27%.

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I know what I have seen. I know what other have seen behind this point. At Twintania is nothing more happening than I've seen. Neal is bringing also "just Neal stuff".

When do you expect they will bring everything else? Within the last minute of the fight?

It honestly doesn't look that complex mechanically but the DPS checks are extremely tight, and pretty much all of the mechanics will one-shot you or even the entire party if you mess up at them, making it easily the most unforgiving fight in the game.

I think the "all the mechanics in the game" thing was an extreme exaggeration, as you're only dealing with select mechanics from each of the bosses and, but it gets hairy when you start having to deal with them simultaneously and have almost no safe zones to work with due to how tiny the arena is.

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Originally Posted by KarstenS

I know what I have seen. I know what other have seen behind this point. At Twintania is nothing more happening than I've seen. Neal is bringing also "just Neal stuff".

When do you expect they will bring everything else? Within the last minute of the fight?

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The top prog groups have got far more than 1 minute left to beat the fight. They have got to the beginning of phase 3 in about 7 minutes, the fight in total is expected to last around 15 minutes.

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Originally Posted by KarstenS

This is easy.

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https://youtu.be/AnB77B0qiiU

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Originally Posted by KarstenS

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It was probably either an exaggeration or a mis-translation. Even still, considering that most of the groups are stuck getting through Nael and pretty much everyone who made it past her wipe shortly after Bahamut takes the field...yeah, maybe they don't need to bring 'everything else'. From what I understand so far, hitting Bahamut may not even be the halfway point of the fight.

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Originally Posted by KaivaC

From what I understand so far, hitting Bahamut may not even be the halfway point of the fight.

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There's been nothing so far that uses the rainbow effects on the weapons that I've seen. That seems like a bit of tell there that there's going to be a big visual treat near the end.

pretty sure the weapons are meant to look like sparkly golden trophies. that phantom bahamut wings thing they have is really cool though even if it's hard to see.

it looks like there is a 4th phase after bahamut where your dealing with all 3 at once.
dealing with Nael while twintania is flying around creating havoc then bahamut with both of them giving you trouble seems like quite a task already

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Originally Posted by Magic-Mal

Trash

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You should see my comments within the context I write it. That includes to know the fights I do compare with.

Lets see some Numbers. If I would break it down, I woud need to compare Phases 1 AND 2 of A8S to meet the Twintania Phase of Ultimate Coil. But I will just take Phase 1.

Onslaughter (Phase 1 of 8 in A8S)

8 different Mechanics. Enrage if group DPS is to low.

1 of them is an individual DPS check for 4 players (help by others not possible).
2 together of them needs a high awareness, as you have just 1 or 2 seconds to discover the order people have to team up 5 times for playing it correctly and you have a very limited time to finish it.

-> Both of them will trigger a hard enrage instantly if just 1 person fails on it (you can fail them in multiple ways).

Twintania (1 of 3 [or maybe 4] in Ultimate Coil)

5 different mechanics. Enrage if group DPS is to low.

No individual DPS check. No fire prison, no Adds.
No high awareness mechanic similar to legislation in A8S.
No enrage trigger by mechanic failure.

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Maybe the curve is going far more up than ever before within one fight.

But just comparing Twintania progression with progression in earlier "real" savage content,
this one starts not at a level I did expect. <- That is what I'm saying. Not more and not less.

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Originally Posted by Nihility

pretty sure the weapons are meant to look like sparkly golden trophies.

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They are just shiny golden trophies, but it's interesting that they are gold and black because the actual Bahamut primal was gold
https://i.imgur.com/dhDDWJ7.jpg
He looked like this in the Answers video too but it was really difficult to tell because of the lighting. they're very clearly patterned after the REAL Bahamut primal and not Bahamut Prime from binding coils who was blue and purple
https://i.imgur.com/nOU9UaI.jpg

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Originally Posted by KarstenS

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You wrote an awful lot for a small poke at you :x

I don't know anything about A8S, Midas or even past O2S.

It's fun as all hell. Me and my static threw ourselves at it for about two hours before someone had to leave, but we all agreed we only wanted more of it the next day. I'm not saying ALL raids should be like this, but FFXIV NEEDs more raids like this. Very punishing, very brutal, very addicting and guaranteed to test you.

If you are a true raider you will love it. If you don't like it I'm not sure what to tell you, besides that you might actually just be a sheep in wolf's clothing.

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Originally Posted by Coatl

It's fun as all hell. Me and my static threw ourselves at it for about two hours before someone had to leave, but we all agreed we only wanted more of it the next day. I'm not saying ALL raids should be like this, but FFXIV NEEDs more raids like this. Very punishing, very brutal, very addicting and guaranteed to test you.

If you are a true raider you will love it. If you don't like it I'm not sure what to tell you besides that you might actually just be a sheep in wolf's clothing.

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But the part of the community that does that is VERY small which is a major problem

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Originally Posted by KarstenS

earlier "real" savage content.

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Probably just opened up the floodgate with this line...

I haven't done the Alex Savage yet - I'm something of a late bloomer, coming in as 3.56 came out. But with that said, considering that in addition to mechanics, you essentially have a 3 minute enrage timer, something that a lot of groups in the world race have not been able to do consistently 24 hours after the content dropped, slower progress doesn't necessarily mean anything in this context. It's a different type of fight. For one, with A8S, the groups doing them at the time had to figure out all the different mechanics and rules, whereas here, you already know the mechanics, they just hit harder, work differently, and are far more intense than before.

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Originally Posted by jameseoakes

But the part of the community that does that is VERY small which is a major problem

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No the major problem is the VERY big part of the community who is complaining everytime a raid comes out because they get "locked" out of the content since they are not willing to practice their class and the raids until they know what they are doing.

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Originally Posted by Ilan

No the major problem is the VERY big part of the community who is complaining everytime a raid comes out because they get "locked" out of the content since they are not willing to practice their class and the raids until they know what they are doing.

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I'd say people don't really have a interest in the content. I don't really care about the gates on the this, I doubt I'll ever run it as it has no rewards I'm interested in. I just think that calls for more content of this difficulty need to be tempered by the fact that very little of the paying player base will engage with this content. It will be interesting to see how much of the player base does it and how long this content stays active for.

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Originally Posted by jameseoakes

I'd say people don't really have a interest in the content. I don't really care about the gates on the this, I doubt I'll ever run it as it has no rewards I'm interested in. I just think that calls for more content of this difficulty need to be tempered by the fact that very little of the paying player base will engage with this content. It will be interesting to see how much of the player base does it and how long this content stays active for.

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People who are not interested are one thing but if you take a look at posts about the different savage tiers, 24 man raids, EX primals and even Dungeons you can see that there is a big part of the community who is complains about everything what includes more than just smashing 3 buttons to beat it. If i don't want something in a game that is challenging me a bit and forces me to learn then i don't do it but i also don't complain about it.

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Originally Posted by jameseoakes

I'd say people don't really have a interest in the content. I don't really care about the gates on the this, I doubt I'll ever run it as it has no rewards I'm interested in. I just think that calls for more content of this difficulty need to be tempered by the fact that very little of the paying player base will engage with this content. It will be interesting to see how much of the player base does it and how long this content stays active for.

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By that same token, should Machinist be deleted since it's by and large unpopular? I, personally, find Perform a complete waste of time. Should I make several threads complaining about it? The entire purpose behind a themepark MMO is something for everyone. What you or others dislike others may find enjoyment and vice versa.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

By that same token, should Machinist be deleted since it's by and large unpopular? I, personally, find Perform a complete waste of time. Should I make several threads complaining about it? The entire purpose behind a themepark MMO is something for everyone. What you or others dislike others may find enjoyment and vice versa.

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You can do if you like, personally I think perform looks like a complete waste of time as well, don't touch MCH though that's my go to DPS at the moment

I think it is great that raiders got this. I think it is so cool that teams are still trying to clear it. I'm enjoying watching others enjoy this content. Yes it is only for a small portion of the community sure but it is only 3 fights for the life of an expansion. That's not much effort or exclusive content for just hard core raiders. There is plenty of stuff for everyone to get.

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Originally Posted by RukiaFae

I think it is great that raiders got this. I think it is so cool that teams are still trying to clear it. I'm enjoying watching others enjoy this content. Yes it is only for a small portion of the community sure but it is only 3 fights for the life of an expansion. That's not much effort or exclusive content for just hard core raiders. There is plenty of stuff for everyone to get.

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I think this is a fact that might be going a bit overlooked when it comes to the idea of "content only for the hardcore" - that there are plenty of people who are getting entertainment value over watching other people attempt it, without the stress or frustration of attempting it themselves. A few in the FC/some Linkshells actually watch us stream stuff when it's new, even if they won't actually do the content personally. Entertainment value isn't just limited to some narrow scope of participation only - look at esports or regular sports viewing, for instance.

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Originally Posted by loreleidiangelo

I think this is a fact that m

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hmm I still debate whether its justifiable tho , even if it is a tweaked fight , how many threads have you seen askin for more housing those resources could go there, how many post askin to change the msq dungeon those resources could go there, flyin in the old zones etc. Yea thats all casual stuff, but Ive seen many arguments about when people ask to tweak other aspects of the game and its a widespread no Id rather them use resources on new stuff. In fact one of my very first post was askin for tweaks to the msq 50 dungeons. Many people where opposed , but yet ultimate comes out and those same type of people are like oh thats just rehashing old stuff its not really takin up resources.

Ultimate is great for people that make me enjoy the game more like happs, and xenos etc, but I mean if it didnt exist they wouldn't just up and quit the game either because they currently make a living off streaming this game. But I wonder how many peoples awful experiences in the level 50 msq has made them quit the game Id be willin to say more have quit from that than hc raiders would quit if this ultimate didnt exist. I just find it hypocritical all the other post that have gotten bashed askin to rehash old content, but when this comes along it gets a pass.

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Originally Posted by bswpayton

hmm I still debate whether its justifiable tho

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1. The housing team is completely separate from the battle design team and Yoshi-P has already promised more housing for the next major patch
2. Praetorium and the other one aren't going to be changed, finding a different way to get the story from the cut scenes in for content that is four and a half years old would not be proper use of the cut scene design team's resources and a fair amount of newbies use party finder and unsync the content now anyways
3. They already compromised on not having flyable zones in ARR with us by increasing land mount speed which is really only useful in those areas to begin with

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Originally Posted by loreleidiangelo

I think this is a fact that might be going a bit overlooked when it comes to the idea of "content only for the hardcore" - that there are plenty of people who are getting entertainment value over watching other people attempt it, without the stress or frustration of attempting it themselves.

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The issue with that entertainment value however is that people do not need to subscribe to your game in order to get it. It primarily benefits the streamers, not the game or the people who make it, hence why you couldn't develop a game on that premise - You'd need to start to monetize the streams for that concept to work out, else you'll just be sitting on a pile of disproportionate costs. For the game as a whole, it is far more beneficial to put that entertainment value into something that requires participation OR start to monetize the streams.

It isn't always possible - There were League of Legends streamers who made a living out of streaming themselves insult their teammates and rage and people got enough kicks out of that to finance those people. You can't really control that and you can't really condone that either, since it's technically against your ToS, so making a proper contract... would put you in a bad spot. But in general, you want people to actually need to BUY the product you're selling to get its value.

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Originally Posted by jameseoakes

But the part of the community that does that is VERY small which is a major problem

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Because, in a game that caters majorly to the casual playerbase, the more hardcore side of it aren’t allowed to have something designed for them? Every piece of content released in this game is catered to the majority—i.e., the casual playerbase. Just look at the Stormblood Ex primal: Lakshmi and Susano rolled over, Shinryu—while fun—is definitely not on par with Thordan Ex at release, and Deltascape Savage is about the same difficulty as Creator, if not easier. V3S, while a mechanic dance, is far easier than A11S. Neo, while fun, is easier than Alexander Prime. Point is, everything in this game caters to the casual crowd, yet they seem to be the ones that complain the loudest when content is released for the other part of the playerbase for once.

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Originally Posted by jameseoakes

I'd say people don't really have a interest in the content. I don't really care about the gates on the this, I doubt I'll ever run it as it has no rewards I'm interested in. I just think that calls for more content of this difficulty need to be tempered by the fact that very little of the paying player base will engage with this content. It will be interesting to see how much of the player base does it and how long this content stays active for.

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Considering there was thread after thread being made complaining about gating Ultimate behind clearing V4S and how “unfair” it was, I’d say enough people are interested in it to make it worthwhile to implement. If we want to discuss interest, I know a lot of people that are not interested in Ex primals—doesn’t stop the developers from making them. I, myself, am not interested in any of the new dungeons being released, because they’re just copy-pastes of all the previous dungeons with arbitrary gates set up to temper tanks that want to pull larger groups of mobs. Doesn’t stop the developers from making more dungeons. Same thing can be said about any piece of content: not everyone is going to be interested, and the content isn’t going to last forever. Considering SE had to put in an Alliance Roulette with a massive EXP reward to get the queues rolling for the older 24-mans....

In other words, it seems like you’re saying “I’m not interested in this piece of content, so it’s not important, and it’s going to die quickly.” Just because you don’t like something, or just because you have no interest in it, doesn’t mean that other people don’t as well.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

Because, in a game that caters majorly to the casual playerbase, the more hardcore side of it aren’t allowed to have something designed for them? Every piece of content released in this game is catered to the majority—i.e., the casual playerbase. Just look at the Stormblood Ex primal: Lakshmi and Susano rolled over, Shinryu—while fun—is definitely not on par with Thordan Ex at release, and Deltascape Savage is about the same difficulty as Creator, if not easier. V3S, while a mechanic dance, is far easier than A11S. Neo, while fun, is easier than Alexander Prime. Point is, everything in this game caters to the casual crowd, yet they seem to be the ones that complain the loudest when content is released for the other part of the playerbase for once.

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I wish the extreme hardcore would stop using casual for everyone not doing bleeding edge progression it makes it sound like most people do it rather than sub 5% of the player base, which is the issue here.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

In other words, it seems like you’re saying “I’m not interested in this piece of content, so it’s not important, and it’s going to die quickly.” Just because you don’t like something, or just because you have no interest in it, doesn’t mean that other people don’t as well.

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In an honest reply to this, I expect this content to die quickly as I'm not sure the demand is really there. I think this content probably has been needed as the extreme parts of the raid community have been calling for this while say everything else is too easy. But SE will need to look at the participation rates and see if this content is a good use of there resources or whether they should be aiming at boarder segment of the player base. I may well be wrong the community really raises to this and gets inspired by it, time will tell on this but the last time we had really challenging content the raid community fell apart.

I've spent like 10 hours or so inside of Ultimate. I never got to prog Coils as I started back in HW launch, so I really enjoy these fights, they're essentially entirely new fights to me that are reminiscent of a6s pre nerf difficulty, so not too bad, at least on a individual level, it's just on a group level, its difficult because it requires consistency.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

Because, in a game that caters majorly to the casual.

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While the dungeons are easy and certainly, and it's just pull as many adds as possible. The money put into them is worth more than making content that maybe 10k out of 500k will take part in. I love when people in statics call all content easy. While this content is pluggable let's not act like the path isn't different, then having people u trust and play with on the regular doesn't cloud the perception of said content. Are having pasers and call outs don't make a difference or having people that's dedicated enough to wiping hour after hour with u on said content doesn't make a difference. This fight while nice just wasn't warranted, it's proof in the numbers many peoples flogs stop at v2s or 3s. Let's stop acting like everything shares the belief that the content is a push over when looking at things from ones on pov.

Ultimate is fantastic. As someone who loved Midas (and Gordias with the exception of A4S), I've been waiting so long for the return of challenging raids. I feel like square struck a great balance between difficulty and hope as well, as we are progressing through the content at a steady pace, but it's still taking a substantial amount of time without the presence of a gear gate.

Remember that the difficulty of Gordias/Midas hinged on a gear gate - A4S was nearly impossible week 1/2 simply due to the amount of damage and lack of HP. Gear gating is the easy path to extending content. The fact that square was able to produce a fight that did not account for vertical gear progression that could keep top raiders struggling for this long already is a testimony to great fight design deveopers on their staff. It gives a huge amount of hope for future raids, too!

Gear gating is NOT what we have with unending coil. Unending coil is a litany of dances and mechanics sprinkled with RNG that you can react to. It's truly fantastic fight design that pushes party coordination requirements to the next level. That's really difficult to do in a game that's had an active competitive population for 4 years, through 7 raid tiers (8 if you count SCoB savage).

While I can empathize that a lot of people won't challenge this content, my hope is that this content inspires some players to try a little harder and maybe get to experience challenging raids. It's really a wonderful experience if you're up to the challenge of upping your game and team coordination.

I raided enough in 2.0 to see Baha and Nael, didn't raid much at all in 3.0, and came back to the raid game for 4.0. This savage tier is fun but felt less punishing and more accessible which was nice given I am midcore at best, above average but nothing special. So with that context out of the way....

Ultimate is tons of fun. The wipes are so brutally fast and the mechanics are so tight, it feels amazing to get things right. Because it's optional there's no real frustration about missing out on pages or gear or future fights, so that helps a lot. I ground out Twin for over 2 hours last night, didn't beat her, but the feeling of how buttery smooth the fight ran when people were consistently getting to <20% is something I haven't seen since 2.0. I don't find it frustrating at all, it's just darn fun content. The last time I had this much enjoyment during raiding was 4.0 Hali Drg when I had my LoTD windows planned out and the flow of the fight was so smooth~

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Originally Posted by bswpayton

Let's stop acting like everything shares the belief that the content is a push over when looking at things from ones on pov.

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The inevitably counterpart is the easier everything is by design, the less motivation people have to improve. I firmly believe the dreadfully high skill gap is rooted on the fact XIV jumps from faceroll easy to hardmore with minimal in-between. Content has become noticeably easier since Stormblood launched. You can't just point to bad players and say "see they can't do it! So it isn't faceroll!" I hate to be blunt, but players dying to Susano EX either are new to the encounter or simply aren't good at their job because, yes, he's really easy.

Regardless, the issue people like myself have taken is this is the first instance in years the devs catered to the raid community and people who either haven't cleared Neo or don't raid at all are the ones mostly whining. If you want to say 4.1 overall has sparse content, go ahead. Just stop blaming us because you want everything to be easy.

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Originally Posted by NoctusT

I dont get why folks are complaining about this. The rest of the content is aimed at the casual player base so having one fight aimed at the hardcore crowd should be fine. Static's going in on Saturday so I can't wait to prog this! The fight looks insanely fun from what I've gathered from watching 5150's stream. THE HYPEEEEEEE!!!!

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Because it's something they can't do and are attributing this primarily recycled fight as the reason they don't get even more new content. It happens with PvP too. Some people just can't fathom not everything will be designed for their interests.

I dont get why folks are complaining about this. The rest of the content is aimed at the casual player base so having one fight aimed at the hardcore crowd should be fine. Static's going in on Saturday so I can't wait to prog this! The fight looks insanely fun from what I've gathered from watching 5150's stream. THE HYPEEEEEEE!!!!

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Originally Posted by bswpayton

While the dungeons are easy and certainly, and it's just pull as many adds as possible. The money put into them is worth more than making content that maybe 10k out of 500k will take part in.

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Extremely wrong. Most people WILL burn out, no matter how much fresh content Square Enix will chug out. It is the HARDCORE gamers that are the most constant stream of money. They may not be numerous, yes, but they can be depended on for years. This is how all games (other than Buy Once, Play for Life ones) work.

Second, it is vastly superior business-wise, to cater to as wide an amount of community as possible. But unlike how you think, catering to part here and to part there IS better. As an example, let's think of the PvE and PvP. The two major content types, many players preferring one over the other in a significant amount. Let's, for the sake of argument, say that you have 100 people interested in PvP, 100 people interested in PvE, and out of these 50% of each like both. Now, if a game is 100% PvE, you have 100 happy players, 50 decently amused players that will get bored more easily and 50 players that will not touch the game. The exact same if the game is 100% PvP. But what happens if the game have PvE and PvP, both being viable in a significant deal?! You get 200 people, 100 of which will play it for years with little risk of getting bored for long, and 100 mostly quite happy with some hiccups here or there.

Making content of varied types, especially one that does not force players with other preferences into it, is very much worthwhile financially, even if there is a small amount of people. If difficult raid content like this will become more numerous, it will draw hardcore raiders that wouldn't even bother trying the game, it will strengthen the "hold" on the ones that are already playing it, and it will hardly have any effect on the majority that would not even bother trying, like you or me.

Proof of that?! Easy. Just ask a bunch of people what they like most in the game, what keeps them playing the most, and ignoring the "community and friends" answers (since they are not game-relevant), you will notice quite some variety to the answers. And the same if you will ask about the part of the game that they could not possibly care any less than they do. And you'll notice then that the same things that are irrelevant to some, are exactly what holds others interested.

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Originally Posted by bswpayton

While the dungeons are easy and certainly, and it's just pull as many adds as possible. The money put into them is worth more than making content that maybe 10k out of 500k will take part in.

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I have taken part in more Savage content than I have Expert Dungeon since before Stormblood even launched. Why? Because the Savage content offers me more of a challenge than a dungeon where I basically spam an AOE skill, and then spam a couple other skills for a boss that I don’t even have to know the mechanics for to beat. I don’t even have to do a proper rotation to clear a dungeon, where as it’s far more likely I will clear Savage with one, and I mostly definitely need to know mechanics in Savage, where as one can basically ignore the majority of them in 4-mans.

Not everyone thinks that the 4-man dungeons are the most intriguing content in this game. I avoid doing them most days because they just feel like a chore, and they’re boring. And I’m not the only one who feels this way.

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I love when people in statics call all content easy.

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It’s not just “people in statics” that think a lot of the content in this game is easy.

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This fight while nice just wasn't warranted, it's proof in the numbers many peoples flogs stop at v2s or 3s. Let's stop acting like everything shares the belief that the content is a push over when looking at things from ones on pov.

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You do realize that not EVERYONE uploads to FFLogs, right? When I was doing Creator Savage, I didn’t upload to FFLogs. And I’m not sure what “content” you’re referring to, but if you’re considering the 4-man Expert dungeons hard then, I’m sorry, you are most definitely in the minority there. Ultimate was made for the people that asked for and wanted more. Therefore, not unwarranted. Just because you don’t have the desire to do the content doesn’t mean that it was unwanted content in the first place.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

The inevitably counterpart .

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First dungeons are dungeons they will always be easy. Never said susano was hard I get annoyed when people call v3s and v4s shiyru etc easy especially those in statics. It\\'s simply totally different doing only things with random and people u always do content with stop being delusional. And having a parser while half the player base doesn\\'t, or call outs, and not having to worry about someone leaving ur group after one wipe. Let\\'s stop acting like the approaches are the same in my opinion I respect those whom pug the whole tier and aren\\'t dismissive to other people more than someone that\\'s been in a static. I don\\'t want everything to be easy the defs have stated people have had trouble with the raids we have now u know they have actual data. While everyone in forums like this make offhand comments about how easy things are while even fflogs data and SE have numbers to back it up with facts.

I guess the question is how many Playstation users get around to doing this, considering the "advantages" of pc players.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

I have taken part in more Savage content than I have Expert Dunge.

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Never said the freaking expert dungeons where hard. Read a live letter the devs said we expected people to clear 1 and 2 and struggle with 3 and 4. And flogs back that up get off ur high horse has nothing to do with me. I'm stating facts from devs and collective data ur just talking about ur opinion

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Originally Posted by bswpayton

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Easy relative to what came before. Shinryu and V3S aren't particularly hard fights, especially not the former. Say you can't claim that because you have a static is foolhardy. Do you think everyone just stumbled into getting one? It's called effort. You'll have to actually dedicate time and energy whereas the overwhelming majority of content can be easily pugged. EX Primal necessitate more effort and a willingness to learn, which only increases the higher up the totem pole you climb. Getting into a static can be seen as apart of said dedication, though some opt to stay freelancer knowing it will be harder. Perhaps if people put in more effort to clear instead of complaining, they might get somewhere. The amount of people you see in PF who can't even perform a basic opener is astounding. Look no further than Zurvan. He wasn't hard, people just tried to brute force through without putting in some effort to learn their jobs or actually do mechanics and died.

If JP players can amass decent clear rates, there is no reason we can't. Now there is plenty of fault to go around. Plenty of raiders lack any patience and XIV does a piss poor job teaching you how a serviceable rotation works. That said, my bad experiences are more akin to the Zurvan examples.

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Originally Posted by bswpayton

Never said the freaking expert dungeons where hard. Read a live letter the devs said we expected people to clear 1 and 2 and struggle with 3 and 4. And flogs back that up get off ur high horse has nothing to do with me. I'm stating facts from devs and collective data ur just talking about ur opinion

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If you’re citing Live Letters and “hard facts”, then source them, then. Since you’re so insistent on proving that your point is “right.” As for what you’re referring to, you should probably make your posts more clear so that others can understand what you’re saying. Because, from what I gathered, you’ve been discussing your opinion on Ultimate this entire thread, and how unwarranted it is. That sounds very opinionated to me.

As for your comparison to PUGs and statics, you realize that statics can stuggle just as much with tiers than PUGs can, right? Static members can have members just rage-quit after a couple wipes because they just aren’t feeling it one night. My first static was stuck on v3s for 5-6 weeks because of the constant rotation of healers and OTs we had, and a lot of people, including myself, just left the party after a few wipes to Hali because it gets frustrating wiping to the same thing over and over. My second static has off-nights where our v1s runs are ridiculously messy for whatever reason—just last night 3 of us lagged out in the middle of V3S and we spent far longer than necessary on it.

You’re making it sound like PUGs try harder than those with statics, and that is not always the case; people in statics try just as hard. Perhaps, instead of telling people to get off of their high horse, you should stop your broad generalizations. PUGs don’t always have it harder than those in statics, not everyone parses, not everyone uses callouts, and not everyone uploads to FFlogs, so your “hard data” on clear rates that you seem to be basing just off of uploaded data to FFlogs is going to be off. Because not everyone reports to FFlogs.

As for V3S and V4S comparisons, they are easier than A11S and A12S were at launch, which were easier than Midas, which was easier than Gordias. Shinryu, while more challenging than Susano or Lakshmi, is not as challenging as Thordan was at release, the primal that corresponds with Shinryu. The progression new raids and Ex trials seem to have towards the easier/lighter difficulty scale can be quite a bit of a let down for those that are looking for more. Ultimate gives those people that want more the “more” they want. Sorry that you don’t like that.