How is the summoner dps?

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Originally Posted by dinnertime

SMN does have a lot of support but just pointing it out that Contagion is only worth it if you have another caster DPS with you, but there's also some meta with melees going on right now and that Ifrit is stronger than Garuda. Radiant Shield would see no use in fights where it can't reflect damage to extend the physical vulnerability debuff.

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You do always have your healers who can benefit from it; though that is a good point. It's also a skill that if the devs molded right, could result in more caster-based comps. Imagine if Embolden worked for all damage types; then a BLM/SMN/RDM/X comp would be favorable in more circumstances because SMN and RDM could ramp up BLM's damage, etc.

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When people said SMN is as strong or stronger than SAM I thought it was some sick joke, apparently it is true. I'm impressed how such a change would put SMN from being so low to being so high up. It would need nerfs, sure, but they better be careful of what they nerf. Seriously.

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I was pretty shocked when I saw the numbers too. SMN is either challenging or surpassing SAM in every fight...not to mention the rDPS it brings alongside that. They do need to be careful with nerfs, but I don't think a few potency nerfs would be misplaced on some of their filler spells.

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Still, they need to do something about BLM and MNK first because both were ignored for a while now.

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Black Mage, Monk, and Dark Knight are all hurting pretty bad for buffs. RDM is too but I'm sure many would disagree with me there, as opposed with the former three.

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Originally Posted by PrismaticDaybreak

Worth mentioning that the glitch wasn't particularly common knowledge, but people still just looked at the top 10 or so parses and decided RDM was OP. Oh the brilliance of ignorance.

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That's a good point. Sorry, I'm used to people pointing at the zenith of RDM versus the average of the other casters, and crying "OP!", and most people who were outdoing the other two casters to my knowledge used that glitch.

The amount of arguments I had the first 2 weeks of release about RDMs damage was absurd.

I was there for a lot of them. I guess balance achieved?

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

If Embolden worked for all damage types; then a BLM/SMN/RDM/X comp would be favorable in more circumstances because SMN and RDM could ramp up BLM's damage, etc.

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I really wish it did. It's so lame that RDM works better with melees instead of fellow casters.

Also not sure about RDM but I guess it needs some looking up if it actually need buffs, and that's for the RDM mains to decide.

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Originally Posted by dinnertime

I really wish it did. It's so lame that RDM works better with melees instead of fellow casters.

Also not sure about RDM but I guess it needs some looking up if it actually need buffs, and that's for the RDM mains to decide.

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Personally I'd like more damage put into the melee combo, you barely get 400 more potency in about the same span as 2 dualcasts.

do not nerf smn, just buff blm .... and fix the ffing "lose Enochian when casting fire 1 under ice- astral"

than maybe there will be one day "3 caster meta" parallel to the usual meta

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Originally Posted by Shiroe

than maybe there will be one day "3 caster meta" parallel to the usual meta

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At the moment summoner is even beating Samurai in some fights, not even including rDPS. There isn't a single fight where BLM beats SMN for personal DPS, and unless BLM is buffed to godhood there isn't a reason to take a BLM over a SMN unless there are some potency nerfs to the latter as well.

Three caster meta will also remain a dream as long as RDM's embolden only affects physical and it remains bottom rung to stay a rez dispenser.

When you think about it, RDM is now behind bard.
To compensate the lesser DPS, we talk about utility, but what of it ? RDM has two major : Verraise and Embolden.

Now that progress is over, Verraise is done. Embolden alone is not a resaon to be 600 DPS behind SMN or BLM. So I'm actually with you on the need to buff RDM now.
MNK, BLM and DRK should be adressed as well.

SMN is getting a power creep and I don't think it's ok

mkn with 2 or 3 melee dps in the comp is a monster

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Originally Posted by Karshan

When you think about it, RDM is now behind bard.
To compensate the lesser DPS, we talk about utility, but what of it ? RDM has two major : Verraise and Embolden.

Now that progress is over, Verraise is done. Embolden alone is not a resaon to be 600 DPS behind SMN or BLM. So I'm actually with you on the need to buff RDM now.
MNK, BLM and DRK should be adressed as well.

SMN is getting a power creep and I don't think it's ok

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Verraise is honestly one of my most hated abilities because people look at it like RDM is an at whim healer lb3 and use that to justify its low output.

I wouldn't mind trading it in for SMN or BLM like numbers. It's really the only skill I dislike on the job.

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Originally Posted by Karshan

When you think about it, RDM is now behind bard.
To compensate the lesser DPS, we talk about utility, but what of it ? RDM has two major : Verraise and Embolden.

Now that progress is over, Verraise is done. Embolden alone is not a resaon to be 600 DPS behind SMN or BLM. So I'm actually with you on the need to buff RDM now.
MNK, BLM and DRK should be adressed as well.

SMN is getting a power creep and I don't think it's ok

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Tecnically speaking prog now is open again but ppl are preferring SMN over RDM as I expected since well in tight tuned or unforgiving fights verraise isn't that useful, so ye I agree with you

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Originally Posted by Remedi

Tecnically speaking prog now is open again but ppl are preferring SMN over RDM as I expected since well in tight tuned or unforgiving fights verraise isn't that useful, so ye I agree with you

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Plus let's face it, the ones in progress on Baha are the creme de la creme who have no problem using a tough class like SMN in progress (unknown fights are really impacting the DPS as a SMN)

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Originally Posted by Remedi

Tecnically speaking prog now is open again but ppl are preferring SMN over RDM as I expected since well in tight tuned or unforgiving fights verraise isn't that useful, so ye I agree with you

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Big issue here is as tight as everything is, even one death means a wipe--Its not something verraise can pull back from the brink, so the whole reason to bring a RDM (verraise) is worthless.

Also given the tightness of the checks, an underperformer in both pDPS and rDPS like RDM is as a whole worthless to bring; it showcases the problem of tying RDM's balance to verraise.

I wouldn't mind seeing verraise removed from the dualcast system if it meant we got competitive (read: we're not just bottom of casters, we're bottom of all dps) dps.

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

Big issue here is as tight as everything is, even one death means a wipe--Its not something verraise can pull back from the brink, so the whole reason to bring a RDM (verraise) is worthless.

Also given the tightness of the checks, an underperformer in both pDPS and rDPS like RDM is as a whole worthless to bring; it showcases the problem of tying RDM's balance to verraise.

I wouldn't mind seeing verraise removed from the dualcast system if it meant we got competitive (read: we're not just bottom of casters, we're bottom of all dps) dps.

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I think "progression" really refers to Practice Parties - practising the mechanics. DPS is not as important here and this is where Verraise excels.

You are right that the stage after that, Aim to Clear Parties - doesn't have much space for Verraise in tight fights like O4S and Unending Coil, where one (or more than one) death virtually guarantees failure to kill before enrage.

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

Big issue here is as tight as everything is, even one death means a wipe--Its not something verraise can pull back from the brink, so the whole reason to bring a RDM (verraise) is worthless.

Also given the tightness of the checks, an underperformer in both pDPS and rDPS like RDM is as a whole worthless to bring; it showcases the problem of tying RDM's balance to verraise.

I wouldn't mind seeing verraise removed from the dualcast system if it meant we got competitive (read: we're not just bottom of casters, we're bottom of all dps) dps.

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Couldn't agree more, saying that a class is good beause it's a ress dispenser is wrong especially when their role is dps and where in the game there were already fights that punished you HARD for ppl diying

Well it is the pattern they have always followed especially with blm and summoner. Even in HW both jobs would go back and forth (buff, nerfs, etc..) and in the end smn always got the advantage.
I am not dismissing the fact that smn is not perfect but freaking hell it should not be so much ahead for damage + what it brings to groups.
I got tired of all this nonsense because groups litterally would NOT accept blm so i switched to Red not too long after SB. Now that Red is so much lower then others damage wise... dunno
Still playing Red for the time being until blm gets proper fixes

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Originally Posted by Maero

Well it is the pattern they have always followed especially with blm and summoner. Even in HW both jobs would go back and forth (buff, nerfs, etc..) and in the end smn always got the advantage.
I am not dismissing the fact that smn is not perfect but freaking hell it should not be so much ahead for damage + what it brings to groups.
I got tired of all this nonsense because groups litterally would NOT accept blm so i switched to Red not too long after SB. Now that Red is so much lower then others damage wise... dunno
Still playing Red for the time being until blm gets proper fixes

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There's no point going RDM into Ultimate if you're considering that. Verraise is pointless in there and it's DPS + rDPS still pales in comparison to almost anything else you could bring.

Ultimate, you will for sure not bring an RDM at the moment. Dps is just way to low and SMN is beating them even in the mobility department. Still does not mean RDM is not good for other content though. Already there only a finite number of positions available for dps in a run. Then you add the fact these statics will bring what synergies best and performs best for the content at hand. What is bad is when that trickles downward to the rest of the community and effects their feelings and thoughts on a job when it comes to other content. A job not being picked for a small group of statics in content most players will never see does not mean the job is bad. Still I agree that constructive feedback and a desire for balance between jobs is warranted. Just not liking how the top small group of players can have such a huge effect on the rest of the community.

In case you all missed it, Verraise is for the PROGRESSION, not for the clear. If four people die to one mechanic and you can get them all up in 8 GCDs then you can see the next mechanic or two before wiping.

THIS is why Rez Dispenser (tm) is useful, not necessarily because it's going to do four raises during the clear run. (this is also why they hesitated for so long to allow cooldowns reset upon wiping; they didn't want players using hallowed every pull to try to learn mechanics)

SMN is more or less fine in the dps aspect (ok, more than fine lol). I just wish they would make an adjustment to bahamut. Everytime you move it's a dps loss because he will always adjust with you. Unlike your pet which will sit there at your command and continue its job. It'd be nice if they either allowed us to control bahamut or simply have him be stationary during his duration.

As I said I think twice in this thread but dozens of times in total, the way they decided to fix SMN in 4.1 is lamentable (and mildly hilarious) but still very strong and very useful.

Bahamut is frustrating but usable. If one can't handle using Bahamut then one needs to practice, or consider another job. If they fix it later on, then great, but I would still definitely say the job is much sooner due for a nerf than another quality of life buff.

Stop with the TM you didn't come up with rez dispenser. And we get it, you are utterly derisive towards all things Red Mage, some of us who like it would still like a place beyond progression in clear parties.

Um, the tm is BECAUSE I didn't come up with it, but thanks for the hostility I appreciate it.

Your job is fine. I mained it all throughout Deltascape savage progression and was consistently the highest or second highest damage in my group. Go check my page if you wish.

RDM SHOULD be the weakest of all the casters, that's why it's a red mage. And guess what? It's still largely a better choice to take than a black mage that can't turret.

It is the weakest caster, but that doesn't mean it should be completely irrelevant for clear parties. I don't care about your parses, sounds like your group needs to pick it up though. Not to mention your feigned ignorance of parses when you pretended you had 4.2k dps and 5 raises the last time anyone talked about red mage here. Please don't make this about BLM, everyone already knows they have issues thanks to the 46 page thread about it.

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Originally Posted by PrismaticDaybreak

Please don't make this about BLM, everyone already knows they have issues thanks to the 46 page thread about it.

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...Thanks largely to me, mind you. I'm not telling you to go check the page to dickmeasure (and for the record I didn't "feign ignorance" of anything), I'm telling you to prove to you that the class is fine. Embolden is still plenty strong and desired, red mage is still capable of doing the content. Besides this thread is about SMN and its damage, not RDM or BLM for that matter. I only responded to people talking about the value of Verraise (note: already derailed). Take your beef somewhere else.

They had plenty of discussion without you too, don't stroke your ego too much. Red Mage is fine for progression. The issue is about afterwards, there's not much reason to take one for clearing or tight tuned fights. There's pretty much only room for Summoner at this point. Embolden isn't that strong, it's decent and wouldn't tip the scales now between picking SMN or RDM

I'm not stroking my ego, I don't need to stroke my ego to some random dude on the forum lol, I'm just responding to what you're saying.

And yes Embolden appears "weak" now because they overbuffed Devotion. It's like SE's favorite thing to do. This is part of what I am getting at when I say SMN damage is insanely strong.

Also there is a difference between "not much reason to take it" and "it is legitimately bad or poorly designed" (see also: BLM). There is always going to be a meta, but any job(s) can do any content, save for maybe Unending Coil right this moment. It offers quite a bit. If you want to play RDM, no one is going to stop you.

Devotion contributes less to party DPS than Embolden, it's not that strong either. The difference being the previous version was so hilariously weak that now it looks strong.

Devotion alone contributes less but coupled with Radiant Shield it's pretty much on par. This is something Jesh was saying even BEFORE the Devotion fix, that the total difference between Radiant Shield (when considering all of its uptime) and Embolden was already fairly small.

Fair enough, sorry for my tone. Not having a great day and I'm not good at compartmentalizing.

just stepping in to say about devotion : people always call it but it's 2% with 12,5% uptime = 0,25% raid buff. On a 40 000 raid group dps, it's 100...not THE absolute wonder so please stop bringing it into this.

On the same group, with 3 physical DPS at 6000 and two tanks at 4k, embolden is 200 DPS. But If you take radiant shield in blabla

Actually it doesn't matter : when two classes are more than 200 DPS apart, no amount of the current utilities justifies it. it's just flawed.
They should balance DPS AND utilities. That way, more comps become competitive.

Right now, the justification for lesser DPS on RDM doesn't stand anymore (so you tell a guy who leveled RDM, sorry, come back 4.2 or go SMN to join ?), and SMN is getting insane in terms of personnal DPS. This should be fixed. I mean they're starting to outDPS SAM, what in the world ?? And I'm saying that as a SMN myself.

Nerf it but cleverly by lowering ceiling and not the floor. A work on wyrmwaves should do.

Verraise and any ress have a use when the fight is so forgiving that 4+ deaths won't compromise you whatsoever, there have already been fights where either just 2 deaths would jeopardize the try or 1 mistake would outright wipe you

No dps jobs should be valued their worth because of beign able to ress (and tbh I would agree that verraise should not be able to be dualcasted at all)

I am not touching Ultimate so i have no issues sticking to Red, lol
I switched because was very unhappy with what they have done with blm, it is so frustrating especially since i have mained it for around 4 years.
SE have absolutely no clue how to balance jobs.
Smn has issues> let's buff the crap out of it and make all other jobs almost useless..

Agreed.

The worst part is : they only fixed half the class right now. That's also why I want a nerf : SE don't make it OP so you can continue with QoL improvments without buffing it every time making other casters sad ! Otherwise we'll be called greedy if we keep ranting, because you fixed things that are already very good (dmg output) instead of focusing on what really matters to SMNs (how to output it) and done half the job asked on that last part.

I absolutely don't want the tag : here, class fixed.

So please adress DRK, MNK, BLM troubles as well, they are sad with SB so far, so you can continue the work on SMN as well without favoritizing a class.

PS : for RDM, just put a part of Contre-sixte in dot form (base reduced to 250, dot pot 30, duration 30s -> so total 550 with 300 in DOT form). Bam, +150 DPS, on par with casters with utility in mind, a small boost of AOE damage as well)

I'd say that MNK are in a fair spot tbh compared to BLM and DRK