Selling Runs and Clears

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Originally Posted by Jendor

This. I will dance happily the day they outlaw and terminate runsellers accounts. There is zero difference between a runseller and rmts. They are both exploiting cheaters.

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Agreed, Selling content should be against TOS absolutely.

Carrying friends or FC mates in content they can't clear on their own - a ok.

Carrying strangers for compensation - lets make a thread.

Its got to be because being logically consistent is just so inconvenient nowadays, right?

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Originally Posted by Sylvina

Agreed, Selling content should be against TOS absolutely.

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I guess we'd better ban NPCs, crafters, gatherers, etc. too then right? :rolleyes:

God I wish I had the gil to pay for a decent group to help clear some of the upper tier content... not because I'm bad or lazy but because I just keep getting bad parties ... I'd pay for competence...

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Originally Posted by Inuk9

My only complain about this is to put terrible players at farm parties to lose everyone's time.

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An average player gets carried in the fights these days. Don't need to buy a clear to see that.

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Originally Posted by Kanitezz

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mercenary work has been apart of online games since the invent of multi-user dungeons or MUD for short

its not so much for desperation, but more for those who main enjoyment isn't combat. their main enjoyment is crafting or gather. stuff that you can make tons of money on. they still need to keep up their combat jobs because SE likes to block expacs/areas/mats behind combat walls.

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Originally Posted by Sylvina

Agreed, Selling content should be against TOS absolutely.

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Originally Posted by Jendor

This. I will dance happily the day they outlaw and terminate runsellers accounts. There is zero difference between a runseller and rmts. They are both exploiting cheaters.

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never gonna happen. it isn't rmt, nor cheating. rmt is buying gil which is got from explots and bots who flood markets with gil.

merc-ing is just a contract service between players AGAIN been around for decades. hell eve online made it a game.

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Originally Posted by Jendor

This. I will dance happily the day they outlaw and terminate runsellers accounts. There is zero difference between a runseller and rmts. They are both exploiting cheaters.

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How is this any different than taking your friend into something for a clear and they spend the fight on the floor? Or crafting/gathering? It's a service someone is providing for in-game cash. I wouldn't do it, but they're not breaking any game rules.

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Originally Posted by Sylvina

Agreed, Selling content should be against TOS absolutely.

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So you are saying, carryng FC/LS and friends should be againt's ToS too? It's the same thing, the only difference is the FC/LS or that one friend gives you tip or not. Also believe me when I say this, many good players buy runs for a mount or anything like that, want to know why? Because an average player isn't excactly the smartest.

I personally wouldn't purchase any mercenary runs but I'm not surprised that there are others who would do it. If it's their prerogative and how they wish to play the game, I don't see any issue with that. There are players who want a piece of gear to glamour, a mount, or even a title but don't have the time to dedicate to PuG'ing or statics - so the option to buy these pieces of content is useful for them. There's obviously a market, that market has been around since the beginning of the game when Titan HM runs were sold for relic reaction, and those runs will continue to be sold until this MMO dies.

In terms of equating RMT to clear seller / buying - I don't doubt that there are some people who buy Gil to purchase these clears but broadly generalizing all clear buyers as RMT purchasers shows a level of ignorance that is rather unbecoming. I know for a fact I made enough Gil to buy a Medium house in the 2.X era within the spam of two months due to retainer ventures, desynthing, and converting crafting / gathering materia while doing Beastman dailies. If I can casually generate that much Gil in 8 weeks with minimal effort, any serious Gil maker can do that in probably 1-2 weeks without using RMT.

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Originally Posted by Chronons

Carrying friends or FC mates in content they can't clear on their own - a ok.

Carrying strangers for compensation - lets make a thread.

Its got to be because being logically consistent is just so inconvenient nowadays, right?

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I was voicing my POV.

People buy roulette parties just for the queue times?!?!? I gots to get in on this!

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Originally Posted by Kerwin

RMT = Real Money Trading
In game run sellers = In game gil only.

No difference huh?

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The problem is many content buyers use RMT to afford insane carry prices, and content sellers know all about it but have 'no questions asked where you got your 200 millions gil without any crafters or gatherers leveled' policy. So in a way, such activities promote and encourage RMT.

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Originally Posted by SuperZay

The problem is many content buyers use RMT to afford insane carry prices, and content sellers know all about it but have 'no questions asked where you got your 200 millions gil without any crafters or gatherers leveled' policy. So in a way, such activities promote and encourage RMT.

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That's reaching quite a bit. By that logic, anything that costs insane amounts of gil without running a background check on players promotes and encourages RMT.

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Originally Posted by SuperZay

The problem is many content buyers use RMT to afford insane carry prices, and content sellers know all about it but have 'no questions asked where you got your 200 millions gil without any crafters or gatherers leveled' policy. So in a way, such activities promote and encourage RMT.

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The problem with this statement is not having any proof of that. Easy to make a blanket statement (though I would not doubt there are cases of it). In my experience, at least from what I see on my server, it's the heavy crafters/gatherers (much like yourself) who are paying for these because they can't be bothered to do it themselves. And hey, with plenty of gil sitting around, why not? Gil isn't hard to make in this game (even 200mil).

As long as the buyer did not get their gil from RMT, I don't see a problem with it. I've never wanted to buy a clear, and I've sometimes done roulette queue help for free, but meh. I paid someone 50k to fly me to the peering stones aetheryte on early access when I couldn't pass Raubahn savage. The seller was originally asking 100k to fly people to currents, but I just wanted the teleport unlocked for gathering/hunts, so I negociated a different price. 50k is nothing to me, so meh, why not? Paying for a service with in game currency.

Remember folks! you can pay that fc 10-20 million for that mount or clear, ORRR you can make your own pf offer 250k-500k for it and get the same items for 1.8 mil to 3.5 million and just boot anyone trying to sabotage or isn't very good (If you build it they will come...). It's time to stop letting people charge outrageous parties for content that Jp servers help people clear as a community. As long as you keep dishing 10-20 mil at these guilds there never gonna turn around and help the community.

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/GD6qtc2_AQA/maxresdefault.jpg

I wish I could close this thread.

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Originally Posted by Kanitezz

I wish I could close this thread.

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Your points are valid. Tbh i don't think buyings all that great either unless someone has tried and tried and tried and just needs that boost. If the responses make you feel attacked or like people are upset at you please remember, it's not you there upset with, it's a subject that leaves a bad taste in a lot of peoples mouths abeit to the ones defending it or critisiszing it. Me personaly i dislike it because I believe it decreases the number of people willing to help teach and bolster the community to a raiding ability.

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Originally Posted by Kyri

As long as you keep dishing 10-20 mil at these guilds there never gonna turn around and help the community.

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There is a huge difference between helping the community versus selling clears. I have yet to see a player charge another player to clear a dungeon or any story-related content. FFXIV's community is pretty helpful with these. Selling comes into place when someone needs to be carried in an extreme/savage duty because their gear or skill level is too low and they want a mount or clear anyways. The sellers are essentially operating as a full party with 1 "dud" player. It's not too easy considering.

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Originally Posted by Lufir

There is a huge difference between helping the community versus selling clears. I have yet to see a player charge another player to clear a dungeon or any story-related content. FFXIV's community is pretty helpful with these. Selling comes into place when someone needs to be carried in an extreme/savage duty because their gear or skill level is too low and they want a mount or clear anyways. The sellers are essentially operating as a full party with 1 "dud" player. It's not too easy considering.

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I saw a lot of tanks go mercenary at the start of SB, but... 2 new classes, both dps. Can't blame some of them for wanting to profit from it. lol

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Originally Posted by hydralus

That's what gil is for - to skip content you don't want to do. Do you want to run expert 4 times to get a ring or do you want to pay a crafter 150k to get one. Do you want to get a pile of gold to furnish your house by running aquapolis 20 times, or do you want to pay someone else 3 million. Do you want to spend an hour gathering 40 fish for that food you need to craft, or will you buy it off a gatherer.

Personally I don't have any gumption to pay for a minor stat upgrade, but it ain't my gil.

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These are also my feelings, if the players can generate an economy from skilled combat then good for them.
The only negative is that they are letting a person into raid/duty finders that first require a completion, but that likely isn't an issue for most players (buyers) as they wont queue alone to be kicked.

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Originally Posted by Kyri

[SAs long as you keep dishing 10-20 mil at these guilds there never gonna turn around and help the community.[/B][/I][/FONT][/COLOR][/SIZE]

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So, getting stuck in a fight for 2-3 hours because 1 guy can't either:
DPS good enough
Fail mechanics constantly over again and again? You know, that sounds pretty selfish and to me it sounds like you expect people to end up like that. The ironic part is that people like you ask for us sellers to help the community, yet you don't have the skills to do it yourself, so please behalf myself, don't talk like you think it's just go in and carry people, when it's not.

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Originally Posted by SuperZay

The problem is many content buyers use RMT to afford insane carry prices, and content sellers know all about it but have 'no questions asked where you got your 200 millions gil without any crafters or gatherers leveled' policy. So in a way, such activities promote and encourage RMT.

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not true. it is easy to save up the game throws gil at you. a fc mate of mine put a 5K gil limit on his character every time his gil went over, they would put it on their retainer till they got 5K in 2 days they saved up 500K just from quest rewards, fates.

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Originally Posted by Kyri

Remember folks! you can pay that fc 10-20 million for that mount or clear, ORRR you can make your own pf offer 250k-500k for it and get the same items for 1.8 mil to 3.5 million and just boot anyone trying to sabotage or isn't very good (If you build it they will come...). It's time to stop letting people charge outrageous parties for content that Jp servers help people clear as a community. As long as you keep dishing 10-20 mil at these guilds there never gonna turn around and help the community.

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/GD6qtc2_AQA/maxresdefault.jpg

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must be new to mmo. mercing has been in online games since Mud in the 1990s. crafters do the same thing, they charge a service.

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Originally Posted by BigRed5392

not true. it is easy to save up the game throws gil at you. a fc mate of mine put a 5K gil limit on his character every time his gil went over, they would put it on their retainer till they got 5K in 2 days they saved up 500K just from quest rewards, fates.

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You can also make a fortune if you know which Hunting Ventures to send your battle retainer on. All the more so now that they put minions behind Quick Ventures which any retainer can get, afaik

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Originally Posted by BillyKaplan

You can also make a fortune if you know which Hunting Ventures to send your battle retainer on. All the more so now that they put minions behind Quick Ventures which any retainer can get, afaik

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yup then there is materia, tank in need bonus such as leveling roulette. getting yiur friends to craft stuff for you to sell i did that for my fc mates a few times.

It's no big deal. In fact, I don't get why MMOs haven't already incorporated a UI system that lets players manage clears, crafting, etc transactions like a business. Like an advanced version of the trade window.

FFXI had the personal bazaar feature. Update that to 2017 standards.

As I will never use this servers. I don't have issues with it. I make gil faster then I can spend it seeing how I can't get a house.
That being said there is nothing IG worth spending gil on. So if someone without gil issue. Wishes to pay IG gil for IG player time and skill I don't have issues with it.

As for putting up a PF, Doesn't mean you are going to get clear. VS groups that charge for clears they have it down to where some of the time they just have you die at the beginning so your not in the way or do something wrong. They have the fight down 100% and till clear it for you.
I haven't see many people paying for clear any content since Titan when titan was new content and you needed the clear for Relic.
But that really was the only one that was ever a big money grab that I saw a lot of people paying for.

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Originally Posted by Kyri

Remember folks! you can pay that fc 10-20 million for that mount or clear, ORRR you can make your own pf offer 250k-500k for it and get the same items for 1.8 mil to 3.5 million and just boot anyone trying to sabotage or isn't very good (If you build it they will come...). It's time to stop letting people charge outrageous parties for content that Jp servers help people clear as a community. As long as you keep dishing 10-20 mil at these guilds there never gonna turn around and help the community.

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JP groups sell content clears too. Regardless, plenty of people who sell runs also help the community when they're up for it. The two aren't mutually exclusive. Players who have no interest helping won't magically start going into learning PFs if you take away their ability to mercenary. They'll just unsub or raid log faster.

I really don't get this idea that clear groups don't help out the community. Back when Titan EX was still current it was only through the grace of a really sweet clear group who queued for practice that I even managed to clear it the first time. I had been pounding away at it for hours to no avail, and yet as soon as they popped in all cheerful and bushy eyed the night turned about almost instantly. I paid nothing, just happened to get lucky with who I was grouped with, and yet they still did me an immense favor none the less with no money required. These days I've gotten decent enough that I can push progression on my own if I put my mind to it and would never pay for a carry even if it was the only option available. However I understand the appeal carry groups represent and am glad they exist. Hell, one of my friends used to sell carry groups for Coil and she certainly 'gave back' to the community when she had the time.

Ultimately it's exceedingly selfish in my eyes to lambaste people for capitalizing on their skill because it doesn't benefit /you/ in some immediate fashion.

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Originally Posted by Kanitezz

Isnt that the type of content you want to clear with a static or friends or even a learning PF group? Ya know cheer real loud when you guys finally get it?

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Not everyone wants that feeling. It takes time and skill to clear such content.
Some are not into battle jobs at all, but more into crafting and gathering. This is how they made all that Gil to buy clears, mounts, and loot in the first place.

Others just buy Gil from RMT (Which is against the ToS), then buy everything the game as to offer.

Different people have different ways of getting what they want. Some want it now and fast with no effort. Others want to get it with time and team effort.

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Originally Posted by Lufir

There is a huge difference between helping the community versus selling clears. I have yet to see a player charge another player to clear a dungeon or any story-related content. FFXIV's community is pretty helpful with these. Selling comes into place when someone needs to be carried in an extreme/savage duty because their gear or skill level is too low and they want a mount or clear anyways. The sellers are essentially operating as a full party with 1 "dud" player. It's not too easy considering.

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From reading these forums for a while I've figured out that we on Leviathan have a really nice community. People are generally nice and help each other out. Yes some people sell runs and clears but far more just help.

Also I've known some people who sell clears and they are decent people too. This is just how they make gil. Since Stormblood has come out I've made over 50 million gil just by selling glamour prisms. How is that different than selling runs?

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Originally Posted by Zarabeth

From reading these forums for a while I've figured out that we on Leviathan have a really nice community. People are generally nice and help each other out. Yes some people sell runs and clears but far more just help.

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You're going to find that on every server and every data center. I join Sephirot ex and Susano ex clearing/learning parties even though I have my clears, and those parties fill with other people who cleared as well.
However, keep in mind that no matter how nice people are, how many clear parties you might put together, you might just not get a good enough party. Clear-sellers also cater to people like that who do have the skill and knowledge of the fight, just have gosh darned rotten luck. It has nothing to do with how nice people are, niceness doesn't clear mechanics nor does it contribute to dps.

I see no issue at all in selling runs. The seller is providing a service using an in game skill. The buyer is using some other skill (assuming it's legit money) such as crafting to trade for the seller's skills.

It's no different than making some friends and having them carry you though a few runs.

Lots of the big twitch personalities (some even have appeared in official interviews at fanfests) have sold runs and have even streamed it. It's no biggie really.

The only place where this can be an issue is if other players are detrimentally affected by people clearing. For example, people buying win trades in PvP.

I'm sure this has been said a few times, but selling runs for gil is acceptable and honestly useful for some. The line is at real money. I am aware of the fact of people selling runs for actual dollars, just like there are those who sell houses for actual dollars as well, at least on some servers. That should be a bannable offense, and might actually be already. But if all they're asking for is in-game currency for in-game work that the game itself literally spews all over the place, then great. It is no different than paying for any other in-game service legitimately, so go crazy.

I find it really amusing that people compare Selling Content with RMT. Ever Since ARR was out Selling Content was a thing. "supply and demand" it is that easy. Where the moeny comes from is not the Problem of those people who sell the Content, even if Sell run ould be forbidden, RMT will stille xcist and people wills till buy it for a simple reason: People prefer the easy way of achieving what they want.

i am not a fan of carrrying people through, but if the coin plays a role in there, that is a different story :P.

people who are putting this on par with RMT are just hypocrites imo

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Originally Posted by GetFoesReqd

That should be a bannable offense, and might actually be already.

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It is. Like you said, the line is at real money, for SE as well.

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Originally Posted by Jendor

This. I will dance happily the day they outlaw and terminate runsellers accounts. There is zero difference between a runseller and rmts. They are both exploiting cheaters.

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Where is it cheating to carry someone through content (who is unable or unwilling to do it himself) and take some gil for it? Or is it for you already a cheat to carry someone through content? Because then i have to report myself and my friends for cheating almost everytime one of us goes into the DF to do roulettes or something.

They are traiding a simple service for ingame currency and thats completly fine. If you want to ban stuff like that you also have to ban everyone who sells crafted stuff in the mb.

For what its worth, I asked a GM about sell runs back in 2.0 when sell runs were rampant including members in my ls doing them and the GM said as long as no RMT gil was being used to pay for the runs then they're fine.