Oh Square Enix… (A Heartfelt Open Letter To The Developers…)

I think the problem with DRK is that nobody really knows how to improve it (or at least, not in ways that SE want to budge on. They are really against the super pull tactics, so I doubt anything that's been cut is going to make a comeback).

We all knew what we hated about WAR, and made it very clear to SE. But with DRK? I know that it isn't fun anymore, but no idea how to fix it.

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Originally Posted by Ekimmak

I think the problem with DRK is that nobody really knows how to improve it (or at least, not in ways that SE want to budge on. They are really against the super pull tactics, so I doubt anything that's been cut is going to make a comeback).

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That's where I stand on it. Like, they've gutted and neutered it being the evasion/parry tank, PLD is the pure tank in the sense that it's got skills to lessen damage, and WAR is just a big beefy brawler that doesnt afraid of nothing. As far as DRK goes, just what sort of "tank identity" could they even attempt to work with / implement, given that parrying is no longer the primary focus, they've done as much as they can to hinder larger pulls (which DRK also excelled at), and unless they remove the MP refresh block from darkside, it's not even like we can say that DRK's are the "magical tank."

Trying to work within an assumed mindset of SE: where does that leave DRK in a way that wouldn't require a complete overhaul of the job? what "fantasy element" can even be achieved now, now that they've more or less shot themselves in the foot with their past decisions?

DRK is a shitty mishmash of PLD and WAR with a lack of identity on what the fuck it wants to be. Until the battle designers for DRK get their shit together I wager a lot of people that play DRK will drop the class over time. And the data of overall Tank usage is really showing as we speak.

The AoE damage shields provide too much and DRK is providing none of that. And to add insult to injury if it isn't bringing party utility it needs to do more damage which it is doing the least amount of also. So it's really a lose lose.

The amount of threads and posts that are concerned about DRK's viability is pretty significant such that it has probably reached SE by now.
It would be comforting if we can get some form a official acknowledgement soon, positive or not.

Sadly I think we will see more news about housing and inventory space before we see anything about DRK fixes.

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Originally Posted by Derio

Sadly I think we will see more news about housing and inventory space before we see anything about DRK fixes.

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If we let threads in all caps about stat weights and mandating tank stance scroll these threads off the front page, then yeah, that's probably guaranteed. Keep the discussion and awareness flowing though, and there might be a chance.

Lifesteal and abilities that cause damage dealt down, damage taken increase, and DoT on enemies, bring back 3.xx Delirium weaponskill and add more Dark Arts Potencies while also slightly nerfing Darkside to where if MP hits 0 you lose Darkside and buff Dark Arts to where Dark Arts no longer fades upon execution and just lasts 10 seconds...

I think it's fair that dark knights need a review, and at the very least fix our one skill Dark Passenger. At the absolute very least make it better than near-useless. We've gotten enough feedback for other classes and housing from the devs, warriors too but dark knights? Nada. I don't know if we need to spam all the threads and reddit like other classes or something to get their attention.

I think I use Sole Survivor even less than Dark Passenger, and Sole Survivor is actually even more useless than the old Shake it Off.

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Originally Posted by Eyvhokan

I think I use Sole Survivor even less than Dark Passenger, and Sole Survivor is actually even more useless than the old Shake it Off.

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What is the point of exaggerations like this, honestly?

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Originally Posted by Argyle_Darkheart

What is the point of exaggerations like this, honestly?

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That is an exaggeration, to be sure. But a skill so situational doesn't deserve its own button. It should do more, or its effect should be baked into something else, particularly now, at a time when almost every other tanks' skills have been re-worked to be nearly universally useful, with the sole exception of like... Tempered Will, I guess. I think DRKs are just feeling it a lot harder right now because A. This raid tier has very few adds, and B. We are underpowered in many other ways, so we're looking for abilities that aren't already pulling a lot of weight to find head-room for buffs or fixes.

Just my two cents, but Sole Survivor felt a lot better when DS had its MP drain, as you could play dangerously if you knew an add was coming. Now you kinda have to struggle to keep your mana low enough for a Sole Survivor proc to be exciting. That's not a problem with the job though, just a personal observation.

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Originally Posted by Argyle_Darkheart

What is the point of exaggerations like this, honestly?

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It's barely an exaggeration. Sole Survivor does literally nothing in two of the four fights in the current raid tier, and in the remaining two (three if you count Exdeath separately) fights, it gives you a mid-level heal at the exact moment that you no longer need healing, along with a paltry amount of MP that doesn't even cover a single Dark Arts.

The old version of Shake It Off let you cleanse the fire DoT if you ran into Halicarnassus after tethers and got clipped by the fire circle, and that's legitimately comparable in the strength and usefulness of Sole Survivor across the whole raid tier.

It absolutely needs a massive buff so that it's actually useful in every fight, whether there are adds or not.

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Originally Posted by Crater

It absolutely needs a massive buff so that it's actually useful in every fight, whether there are adds or not.

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What is interesting is that a 20% HP heal is pretty much exactly equivalent, assuming equal ilvl/stat layout, to the 1200 potency heal of Clemency and Equilibrium. So why is it that ours is on a 2 minute cooldown and requires that the thing dealing the damage we are trying to heal off die first? 3/4 of a DA's worth of mana doesn't close that gap, imo.

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Originally Posted by Crater

It's barely an exaggeration.

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I'm well aware, but exaggerating the issue isn't helping anyone. It's unnecessary and makes you (not you, specifically, mind) sound like an idiot.

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Originally Posted by Argyle_Darkheart

I'm well aware, but exaggerating the issue isn't helping anyone. It's unnecessary and makes you (not you, specifically, mind) sound like an idiot.

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Exaggerating issues is a prerequisite for having SE listen to your feedback. You may not like that, and I sure don't, but you cannot look at the current state of the game's tank balance, or the trajectory that tank balance has taken since Stormblood released, and credibly argue otherwise.

I think some people just don't want us to object so loudly, in the hopes that things stay the way they are. The courteous thing to do is to complain quietly in the corner.

After all, tank (im)balance is the best it's ever been! You're fine the way you are. I don't actually play your job, and I might not have bothered to unlock it, level it, or tried to raid on it, but trust me, it's fine. It's just 300 dps. That's like what, 2% [sic] of your dps? Your single target stoneskin definitely makes up for it. <insert throwaway comments about "superior design" and higher difficulty here> We haven't heard that one before, have we?

Everyone's been afraid of nerfs since the start of SB, when the devs started being more hands on with balance changes. They worry that if DRK's issues get addressed, it's going to negatively impact the other two tanks. What people don't realise is that it's in everyone's best interest to have a variety of options when it comes to their tanks, rather than having one or two must-picks. Let's make DRK equally desirable to groups again. Bring the player, not the job.

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Originally Posted by Argyle_Darkheart

I'm well aware, but exaggerating the issue isn't helping anyone. It's unnecessary and makes you (not you, specifically, mind) sound like an idiot.

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Others have already touched on why people use hyperbolic language to draw attention to things.

Compare and analyse it in other hypothetical situations:

In the abstract, in an edge case that old Shake it Off can be used, it is a party wide damage gain, as it frees up a single healer GCD to cast Broil2/Malefic3/Stone4 for single target, or in a situation where Sole Survivor has some use at all (multitarget), Miasma2/Gravity/Holy. Note Shake it Off can also be applied earlier than Esuna. Sole Survivor gives a fraction of a Dark Arts back.

If you are ever in the situation where there's a dispellable debuff on you, and the healer is otherwise occupied (say Gaoled, or too busy watching Netflix), oSIO would be a nice skill to have, while pretty much there are even fewer times you have the situation where I think "Well, what would be really handy here is sole survivor!", due to the fact it is conditional on a condition where it's basically no longer (or less) needed or wanted, as it is based on the mob dying.

Endgame usage has been covered by Crater.

I want to hear the reverse, how is old Shake it Off worse than Sole Survivor? And if it is, doesn't the fact one has to actually look into it for it to get an 'edge' of uselessness mean that saying one is worse than the other isn't really exaggerating the issue at all?

A few jobs have situational or almost useless or superfluous abilities, but it really seems more like Shake it Off uselessness became such a meme that SE changed it for the PR.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

I think some people just don't want us to object so loudly, in the hopes that things stay the way they are. The courteous thing to do is to complain quietly in the corner.

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Far be it from me to get political suddenly, but its hard not to see analogous situations everywhere in real life. Guess that's just the world these days.

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Originally Posted by Crater

Exaggerating issues is a prerequisite for having SE listen to your feedback.

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I can see where you're coming from, but I think the sheer volume of apt criticism concerning DRK is more than enough. The extended silence from the developers concerning DRK honestly has me a bit baffled; I get the sense that SE doesn't have a very good idea of what they want DRK to be.

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Originally Posted by Eyvhokan

I want to hear the reverse, how is old Shake it Off worse than Sole Survivor?

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There has not been a single instance in end-game content where I have used old Shake it Off for anything but a laugh, whereas there are 2 fights in Savage where Sole Survivor sees use. Bottom line is, I would trade old Shake it Off for Sole Survivor, even with how admittedly weak Sole Survivor is. More DPS is more DPS, no matter how little; old Shake it Off achieved nothing in practice. Interestingly, old Shake it Off would have actually been useful in Rabanastre--funny that.

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Originally Posted by Argyle_Darkheart

Interestingly, old Shake it Off would have actually been useful in Rabanastre--funny that.

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Next raid tier, they'll probably add a boss that puts a dispellable debuff on the tank that does tankbuster damage after 2.5s of application if not dispelled, every minute or so.

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Originally Posted by SplittingSkies

They were aware of the problems people had with PLD, some exaggerated, although many on here have argued why that was the case yet they got buffs and a rotation which isn't as punishing as WAR if you mess it up. WARs shake it off got introduced way too late after they removed the pacification penalty for using berserk, they were aware of how useless it was and informed the community through live letters that they were going to fix it, and they did. Giving WARs their own stack able version Divine Veil. There have been quite a few suggestions as to how they can buff DRK, some real good ones as well. Yet up to this patch they have said nothing, only to give us minor potency buffs and to "fix" blood price which is still locked behind grit.

I think I speak for most here when I say it would be nice for them to acknowledge the problems with DRK then not say anything at all. I don't know, maybe we aren't taking the right approach to this getting noticed. What exactly did the WAR mains do to create such noise and get things gradually fixed in a short space of time?

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Stance switch cost: Pointed out that stance switch cost left you with an unusable number of rage after stance dancing meaning that you missed all the party buffs because your opener was made late by 4 GCDs and that further switching to Defiance from Deliverance meant that unless you had infuriate available or 100 rage you couldn't IB or SS if needed
Unchained: Pointed out that because you can't infuriate out of battle, you couldn't do an unchained pull
Shake it off: Pointed out that in raids, the skill was worthless because your healer will already cleanse those debuffs that could be cleansed


These were specific mechanic failures relating to the playability of the class itself.

For DRKs the issues I see are:

Shadow wall cd needs to be reduced. This isn't a role mechanic failure because there are other mitigation tools, it's a QoL improvement that NEEDS to be made
Blood Price needs to be usable outside of grit in order to maximize DRKs DPS. This is partly a QoL improvement and a role mechanic failure that NEEDS to be addressed.
The Blackest Night, a very useful skill that is great at building your gauge (if nobody else shields you when you use it) while also protecting yourself or your co-tank and until the shake it off change was perfect (minus other shields overriding TBN). At this point, with SiO being a party shield, BN should be changed into party shield when not specifying a party member or a single target shield when providing a party member target and should take priority over other shields (so you can guarantee the 50 gauge) This is a QoL improvement that would be on par with SiO and a mechanic failure (because anyone else shielding your BN prevents you from getting your +50 blood gauge) and should be implemented.

So, first try TBN. Since this will get the biggest bang for the buck if improved. At the minimum it needs priority over other shields because you could BN during your rotation and get a shield that stops BN from giving you your +50 gauge. If DRK can also get party wide mitigation of BN (without the gauge increase) it would be a great QoL improvement and give DRK comparable raid utility again and the next raid tier won't be PLD+WAR meta due to raid utility.

2nd, BP. This NEEDS to be useable outside of grit, both for the MP generation AND gauge generation. Gauge generation should be increased to 10 blood when used and 40 when complete. The cd should be increased to 60 or 90s because this combined with BN will give 4-5 BS per burst window making DRK BS 4 or 5 burst comparable with WARs IR cleaves and PLD's Requiescat+HS

Again, focus on the ROLE MECHANIC FAILURES vs QoL improvements and the devs might be more inclined to listen.

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Originally Posted by Llus

2nd, BP. This NEEDS to be useable outside of grit, both for the MP generation AND gauge generation. Gauge generation should be increased to 10 blood when used and 40 when complete. The cd should be increased to 60 or 90s because this combined with BN will give 4-5 BS per burst window making DRK BS 4 or 5 burst comparable with WARs IR cleaves and PLD's Requiescat+HS

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unleash you add blood weapon being able on grit you are destroing the already unfair balance on tanking on grit vs non-grit.

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Originally Posted by Llus

Stance switch cost: Pointed out that stance switch cost left you with an unusable number of rage after stance dancing meaning that you missed all the party buffs because your opener was made late by 4 GCDs and that further switching to Defiance from Deliverance meant that unless you had infuriate available or 100 rage you couldn't IB or SS if needed
Unchained: Pointed out that because you can't infuriate out of battle, you couldn't do an unchained pull
Shake it off: Pointed out that in raids, the skill was worthless because your healer will already cleanse those debuffs that could be cleansed

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Thank you for the info on this, in my view this just goes to show that we aren't doing anything different, yet our issues with DRK is taking longer to solve. Odd.

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Originally Posted by shao32

unleash you add blood weapon being able on grit you are destroing the already unfair balance on tanking on grit vs non-grit.

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I don't think he was talking about BW being usable in grit, he was talking about BP being usable outside of grit. I don't see a problem with that, again, welcome to be corrected on that. I always got the impression with 4.x DRK that, although lacking in some departments we wouldn't get the most benefits being outside of grit. Surely they must know that unless its prog, not every tank main worth his/her salt is going to stay in tank stance the whole of a fight.

You want HP return off Souleater? Stay in grit
You want a DA return after using Syphon? Stay in grit
You want to be able to use a nerfed Blood Price Stay in grit
But if you Stay in grit you get to keep the full potency of Bloodspiller. *sigh*

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Originally Posted by SplittingSkies

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SE was pretty clear when they put blood price on grit only, they balance resources generation in and out of grit being equal more or less, blood weapon generate more constan MP by miles that blood price with depend of autoattacks mostly, thats why Syphon have that extra MP on grit and even with that you generate more MP outside of grit on bosses.

so what i mean with that is adding only blood price outside of grit will increse non-grit resources generation a lot and let grit being more useles bcs you will generate less MP, less blood and dealt much more less dps compared to tanking outside of grit giving us even more reasons to avoid grit.

to be a fair change it will be unclock blood price out of grit and blood weapon being able on grit and remove the MP bonus on syphon.

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Originally Posted by SplittingSkies

Thank you for the info on this, in my view this just goes to show that we aren't doing anything different, yet our issues with DRK is taking longer to solve. Odd.



I don't think he was talking about BW being usable in grit, he was talking about BP being usable outside of grit. I don't see a problem with that, again, welcome to be corrected on that. I always got the impression with 4.x DRK that, although lacking in some departments we wouldn't get the most benefits being outside of grit. Surely they must know that unless its prog, not every tank main worth his/her salt is going to stay in tank stance the whole of a fight.

You want HP return off Souleater? Stay in grit
You want a DA return after using Syphon? Stay in grit
You want to be able to use a nerfed Blood Price Stay in grit
But if you Stay in grit you get to keep the full potency of Bloodspiller. *sigh*

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IDK, I see so many ideas about what players want to change in DRK there's a lack of consensus. Part of that is because there are SO many things weird and wrong about SB DRK - like, salted earth increasing blood gauge by 1? O.o Blood weapon increase by 3 for each physical attack? O.o Blood price increasing gauge by 5? There's no skill that uses 1, 3 or 5 gauge. For salted earth increase to be useful you need 50 of them. No way you're going to not cap 100 then burn DA+BS. BW +3???? 3,6,9,12,15 - so 5 physical attacks and you still don't have your 50, ... 18,21,24,27,30,33,36,39,42,45,48,51 .... ok so now you're left with an odd 1 from BW and since you can't use BW+BP you can't get an even 20 from BW+BP which would make sense cause at least 3 soul eaters later you'd have a 50.

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Originally Posted by shao32

SE was pretty clear when they put blood price on grit only, they balance resources generation in and out of grit being equal more or less, blood weapon generate more constan MP by miles that blood price with depend of autoattacks mostly, thats why Syphon have that extra MP on grit and even with that you generate more MP outside of grit on bosses.

so what i mean with that is adding only blood price outside of grit will increse non-grit resources generation a lot and let grit being more useles bcs you will generate less MP, less blood and dealt much more less dps compared to tanking outside of grit giving us even more reasons to avoid grit.

to be a fair change it will be unclock blood price out of grit and blood weapon being able on grit and remove the MP bonus on syphon.

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This is true, 100% going out of grit for your bursts SHOULD be MUCH better than trying to burst while in grit; and opening up BP to use outside of grit will do 2 things: give you gauge for you burst outside of grit and give you MP (if you're taking damage) so you can DA everything during your burst and still have MP to swap back into grit if you need to.

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Originally Posted by Llus

This is true, 100% going out of grit for your bursts SHOULD be MUCH better than trying to burst while in grit; and opening up BP to use outside of grit will do 2 things: give you gauge for you burst outside of grit and give you MP (if you're taking damage) so you can DA everything during your burst and still have MP to swap back into grit if you need to.

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the thing is already better, blood weapon generate more MP and blood that blood price and you dont have damage penalty, adding more gap betwen both grit and non-grit just make grit more cunkly and akward to use if you have to, there is no sense on make grit more punishing that already is.

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Originally Posted by Llus

like, salted earth increasing blood gauge by 1? O.o Blood weapon increase by 3 for each physical attack? O.o Blood price increasing gauge by 5? There's no skill that uses 1, 3 or 5 gauge.

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This isn't really a problem that people complain about because it doesn't actually cause any issues. There's no burst window for DRK like there is with WAR wherein you build to maximum gauge and have to divide it evenly such that there is no uneven remainder, so variable returns don't really cause issues. Build your gauge to 50 in whatever way possible, dump it, repeat. The only time you would try to do otherwise is during a TA window or something, but even then there's nothing that dictates that two Bloodspillers MUST be back-to-back, just that you get 2 into that 10s window, etc.