I don't know, I've been healing in this game since 1.0, raiding from Coil to Creator Savage, done all extremes as healer, and I still heal for experts, extremes, and Omega normal, on two different data centres (after ARR) and I have felt like being treated "like shit" maybe 5 times total (probably less). Of course it might be that I've just been extremely lucky during my 3669 instanced raids / trials (based on Achievements), but to me it seems that if you feel like you're constantly being treated "like shit", it might be smart to take a long, good look at the mirror.Quote:
Originally Posted by Transient_Shadow
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09-08-2017, 10:00 PMTaika
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09-08-2017, 10:47 PMera1NeThere are more than 10 Million accounts in this game, so experience will vary and i can say with years of healing that i exp, the worst and the best when it comes to healing. With that said, i get what you wanted to say - maybe a bit to harsh - him or other healers in this thread. Yes, there are toxic people out there, but i wouldn't say the whole community is this way. For example, two healer friends of mine are in a more casual static and everyone there, including the healers have time to grow there and try to learn from their mistakes. As i said earlier, you shouldn't think every mistake was your fault, despite some people saying so, but you shouldn't think you couldn't have done better either. Don't go into the extremes, if that makes sense and learn what your mistake was and what wasn't.Quote:
Originally Posted by Taika
For instance i have seen healer saying the photon + 2x whirlwind attack in a11s isn't healable solo, but it actually is. Jus for the record, you should heal and dps together, but if the other healer is dead - i was in this case :D - then you have no option. Of course for someone who healed hundreds and hundreds ex fights + some savage fights, this is easy to say, because if you heal for years, than you have the experience and confidents to do it. This may sound arrogant at first, but my point is an completely different one. We all started at some point, had neither exp or confidents and when i look back at my first healing attempts and the huge amount of mistakes i made in the beginning, then i believe those guys when they say, "healing this and that big pull or healing this healer check alone is impossible". It was impossible for me aswell and i strongly believe for every healer this was the case at some point in their learning process. But you should never make the mistake and think it actually is impossible, because most of the stuff under the right circumstances isn't. Try to ask healer main or look at live streams to learn what those guys are doing differently than you :) -
09-08-2017, 11:36 PMTridus
One factor I think that hasn't gotten much attention is encounter design. The encounters are so tightly scripted at that level that memorization is a significant part of success. If you don't find memorized healing fun, you're going to have issues wanting to keep doing that content no matter what. Oh this thing is happening in 10 seconds so you need to be here, pop your cooldowns at 2:31, and so on. Reactiveness is a dirty word in some circles here, but in a lot of other MMOs it's a fundamental part of healing.
That first room in Auran Vale is one of my favorite things to heal in the entire game because it's the opposite of that. It's so much more chaotic and unexpected things happen frequently when pulls go wrong, but it's often recoverable if you handle it well.
That's not something the community can fix, though. Making encounters a bit less predictable has to come from the top. -
09-09-2017, 01:51 AMtechnoleYep, you can slouch through O1S/O2S as a healer, not beyond that.Quote:
Originally Posted by SlogDog
Definitely raid DPS is probably the #1 reason why the 3rd turns of each savage tier starts to be the "weed out" for some roles that can't play their job at a respectable raid-level. Like you need about 23.5k raid DPS to clear O3S. So if you have a raid with even average damage dealers, let alone maybe just one that's well above average, yet you have healers that barely do any damage at-all, that's going to be big wall to overcome. Naturally there is also the healer checks too, so it's more about being a "complete" healer. -
09-09-2017, 02:33 AMSebazyIt's not even a recent thing though IMHO. Look back to the ground zero of raiding aka Everquest (Check out that 4 digit magelo profile yo) and most guild interactions were fairly pleasant both internally and between 'rival' guilds especially when you factor in how competitive raid content was. The only ever saw things get properly salty when the Sleeper was woken up on BB, Planes of Power also had a bit of drama over triggers getting killed to block other teams but that was as far as it went.Quote:
Originally Posted by Teraluna
WoW had the makings of being worse still, competitive pvp, competitive world pve with the threat of pvp, /spit emotes ahoy and such, yet the community always felt pretty solid. I dropped WF for literally every last vanilla HWL warrior on the server and helped out in PvE raids with most of the raiding guilds as well despite spending always being in a guild of 1. There was even a good sense of camaraderie with the Alliance regulars, I paid my respects to my greatest pvp nemesis after he passed away. Before I quit I even got the loan of a fully geared out Paladin to do a comedy all stars alliance WSG team with those I'd PvPd against for so long. Absolutely amazing community and I still miss it to this day =(
FFXIV kind of sits in a weird place between the two games. Whilst there's kind of a community feel to the likes of Idylshire and Rhalgr's Reach, PF and DF are altogether a bit too anonymous. It's all too easy to be inconsiderate and insensitive towards the player behind the character because it's a fair assumption that you'll likely never bump into them again. Combine the anonymity with world PvE content and things turn very salty very very quickly.
Then FFXI came along..... I was pretty fortunate in that I was well known and liked, some of the things I saw happen were just shameful. Far far worse than any drama I've ever seen in FFXIV. -
09-09-2017, 04:10 AMBourne_EndeavorLikewise, I scarcely ever see public healer shaming. In all my experiences, it's usually DPS that get picked apart the most, followed by tanks not using CDs. Even in some of the discord channels I frequent, the "shitposting" tends to be laughing at low DPS numbers on a parse they copy/pasted. Low healer DPS gets more of an eye roll than outright ridicule.Quote:
Originally Posted by Taika
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09-09-2017, 04:36 AMQT_MelonThere's plenty of threads complaining about healers that don't DPS, however, I do think part of the problem are healers that still refuse to DPS during Savage content. Savage for everyone has a tendency to ask people to use their skill set more deliberately than a dungeon. It's not just healer DPS, it's like correct cycling of CDs for a tank to handle Tankbusters or other mechanics. That one skill that someone took off their hotbar becomes more useful "oh this is where we need to use Silence" "Oh that Mantra is gonna come in handy for an Ultimate".Quote:
Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor
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09-09-2017, 06:14 AMShihenGood friend of mine used to say the same thing all the time. Great guy IRL and a pretty solid healer in WoW's mythic raiding scene, so after hearing the complaints for a while I came along for a few runs to see what was up. He was a terrible healer. Good enough to get through dungeons in one piece, but he made every run painful and irritated every party by refusing to dps on principle. No healing cds, late esunas, inconsistent regens, poor medica timing, and non-existent precasts. By far his biggest problem was an inability to take criticism, though it was understandable to a point because he would usually only get criticism after someone in the party had had enough and their criticism came out hostile.Quote:
Originally Posted by Transient_Shadow
Eventually after some one on one talks he did change his playstyle a bit and he did get better, but he still balked at the areas that would take more than a basic amount of effort to get better at and his reasoning was "I don't really care enough tbh, I just play this game to have fun with you guys". Understandable, and eventually he did drop the game, but it made me realize perspective can be a hell of a drug. From his, he was doing everything a healer was supposed to do and getting shit on for it. From mine, he was half-assing everything a healer is supposed to do, and getting shit on for being lazy. He's what comes to mind when I see the healer victim complex rear its head on this forum.
Really bad groups do happen, but they're extremely rare imo. What I think actually happens is you get a group where everyone in it thinks they're better than they really are, and the stubbornness that got them there in the first place keeps them from taking the responsibility they need to get out. -
09-09-2017, 02:32 PMTrunks
I have literally never been treated badly "as a healer" in this game; quite the opposite, actually. I have, however, seen a fair few hypersensitive healers get immediately defensive at the slightest suggestion or lightest criticism.
There are a lot of reasons people shy away from healing. One of them is scapegoating, certainly. But I think a bigger issue is that at the low end, content is mind-numbingly easy and gets even moreso once you're farming it. Well, what's there to do but DPS? I legit fell asleep while running Ala Mhigo for my roulette this evening. Spamming Stone IV is neither engaging nor rewarding.
Meanwhile, at the high end, damage values are so stupidly high (which they have to be because we have shielding) that it creates undue stress for a lot of people. Only the most seasoned healers aren't going to panic when they see an HP bar go from 100% to <20% in one hit, but that's routine damage in raid content. It's a visceral thing.
This leads to a healing gameplay where the primary cause of death is GCD bottleneck. Often times these bottlenecks are the result of another failure further upstream (e.g., Vuln stacks). But because the "game over" message flashes up on the healer's watch, the blame gets passed to them. Unless you have great awareness and are constantly logging, it's hard to defend yourself. That's the source issue: your average player has trouble understanding the chain of events that led to group failure on the fly. The default is to look at the immediate cause of death: people ran out of HP, musta been the healers. -
09-09-2017, 02:54 PMMirateskiAs someone who once fumbled awareness, which I pair with sheltron for crit hit, and ate it raw, nothing on god's green earth short of an exceptionally lucky critlo will save you even with palisade up, unless maybe the crit hit was feinted. I enjoy healing, although I don't main it, and I take a particular pride in coordinating with my cohealer through charybdis etc, but... I just don't like healing idiots. High damage, fine, the high stress environment of savage is awesome, although three book waltzes in the last phase of 3s can go die in a fire.Quote:
Originally Posted by era1Ne
But I'm really losing my temper with people who are Just Plain Bad in high floors of savage, and I feel that other people experiencing the same issue might also contribute to a lack of healers. It's not so mmuch healing that idiot pld (or, in their case, rezzing them after the just straight die), it's that you know that pld will be blaming you for the death, even though you told them multiple times to use a goddamn cooldown already. -
09-09-2017, 04:39 PMtechnole
It's hard to get treated badly as a healer in any content, low-end or high-end if you pull your weight and do some decent damage. That is because you are likely already better than almost half the healers out there by just doing that much.
However you might from time-to-time find some oddball saying healer should only heal and stuff, because how secluded they are from content that matters. Just never let such comments get into your head. Shrug it off, don't fall into the pit. This is why I like being mute in pure duty finder content most of the time. I don't have to broil over non-sense by people whom the hardest content they will ever do in the game is expert roulette.
In savage content, as long as you come prepared and even explain "hey we need a cooldown for that critical hit". Just being honest what the hardship they are causing, it's hard to argue, people should adjust when they are pugging. -
09-09-2017, 05:15 PMSebazy
And to chime in with the sentiment here.
In my 4 years of raiding in this game, I can think of maybe 4 occasions where I've been blamed for a wipe that wasn't my fault or was perhaps uncalled for.
2 were static raids which I recorded and managed to solve the issue later on, 1 was a pug akin to a sinking ship which just wasn't worth the hassle and the last was a dungeon run which was just frankly hilarious.
In all honesty, I'm far harder on myself when it comes to my mistakes and failures than anyone else has ever been. I suspect a lot of raid healers are the same even if they don't realise it. It's all too easy to think people are pissed off with you when all all likelihood they actually don't really care. -
09-10-2017, 06:45 AMRisvertasashi
IDK, my experience is that it can happen not that uncommonly in raids. Not like "WTF healers what are you doing *kick*" but more like... the tank drops and then they go, "Um, healers?"
But then I pull up the death report and point out the tank ate a 60k hit, or took 60k damage during the 3 seconds I was stunned for spellblade holy, or so on. Death reports are great for making this sort of thing go away when it does happen. -
09-10-2017, 07:10 AMTaikaOh yeah this happens, but I wouldn't really read it as "treating healers like shit". Many people who don't play healers are really blind to how their own choices and messups affect healers' job. It's not that rare to see people wondering why they "weren't getting healed" when they're standing out of range of every AoE regen, heal and shield, or they simply die because they've been collecting vulnerability stacks. Or people not standing in Asylum / Earthly Star / Sacred Soil. In those cases it is, in my experience, enough to point out their own errors (in a friendly way), and usually people understand it wasn't the healers' fault at all. In the best case they'll learn something! :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Risvertasashi
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09-10-2017, 09:18 AMJim_Berry
I used to raid heavily in the Coils as WHM. I began to branch away from it due to struggling with maximizing my dps while also not being able to rely on Divine Seal (old skill) and Benediction. After it was noted that I was a bad healer due to low dps, my ability to keep the group alive without a BRD or any dominant MP regening went unnoticed. That said, I never wanted to join a static as a healer again.
However, that changed towards the end of Alexander, when I was accepted as an AST. That didn't last long due to other issues, but still...
I was reading other sources about how many people who love to heal lack the ability to push dps, so they, too, stopped healing in Raids/Statics. -
09-10-2017, 01:12 PMRisvertasashiRight, was trying to make that distinction. People completely flipping their lids is...pretty rare, can't really recall it happening to me personally.Quote:
Originally Posted by Taika
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09-10-2017, 09:37 PMTridusOr the desire. People who played healers in other MMOs where it's almost entirely healing without so much DPS may simply not enjoy it here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim_Berry
They also may have decided that if they're going to need to spend half or more of their time DPSing, they might as well do it on a DPS job with a fun rotation.
Lots of reasons why healers may want to drop out in such a DPS heavy focused endgame. -
09-12-2017, 09:27 AMLevianI've been playing MMOs since FFXI came out about 13 years ago. I'm not a dedicated healer or nothing kinda guy, but I've always had one leveled to some degree. In FFXI if you were a in the healing slot, healing was all you did. World of Warcraft - same thing. You manage the ebb and flow of your mana pool while making sure no one takes a dirt nap. It's just a different groove than tanking or DD.Quote:
Originally Posted by PondHollow
Since I can only speak for me, what would it take for me to pick up my WHM and take it all the way & fill one of those empty slots? Tune the game so my White Mage spends the same amount of his time healing as any given DD does dealing damage. Failing that? I'm just not interested, and I hope there are enough people that are interested to fill in the holes left by me (and others that are like minded). -
09-12-2017, 10:48 AMKabzyI think a lot of people were hoping for more damaging fights where healing would be intense. Unfortunately after the initial few pulls, pretty much every savage turn ended up being 1) Optimise your OGCD heals and 2) DPS for 90% of the fight. It's actually quite sad when they made the healing kits so much easier to use and didn't compensate it with more challenging content.Quote:
Originally Posted by Levian
Though if they take that route, the majority of the player base will then complain that healing is too difficult, and they probably had to take stress leave from work. So unfortunately it doesn't seem to be a winning situation for anybody. Unless Yoshi P can stick with 'git gud' and not succumb to every casual complaint. Example: I loved Cleric Stance the way it was pre 4.0, and it's a mechanic of the role that I miss the most. But I literally only saw maybe 3 other healers on this entire forum actually agree with me. Everyone wants easy mode, so that's what we're stuck with.
Edit: And just to clarify, I'm not a hardcore player in the slightest. But I do enjoy some difficulty in the game. If I wasn't so loyal to SCH, and raiding with friends, I would probably have switched to DPS a long time ago. I find all 3 healers mind numbingly boring right now. -
09-12-2017, 11:27 AMTridusWith how powerful healing is relative to HP pools and how much HPS can be put out, they're somewhat stuck. Intense healing requirement for any significant length of time would require putting out oodles and oddles of damage and the party would be constantly yo-yoing between full and near death.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kabzy
I almost wish they'd nerf healing potency across the board to give some more options in terms of what they can do to actually threaten a group damage wise, but that ship has sailed for Stormblood. (MP management has similar problems, mostly in that in a lot of content it doesn't particularly exist. That's why just skipping Cure and going straight to Cure 2 is the standard thing at 70. The GCD is more valuable than the MP.)
I think a fair bit of the playerbase would be happy if healing required spending most of your time healing, rather than DPSing. But that goes back to the issue of you can heal everyone to full in five seconds, so unless people are taking massive damage every 5 seconds you're back to having not enough healing to do.Quote:
Though if they take that route, the majority of the player base will then complain that healing is too difficult, and they probably had to take stress leave from work. So unfortunately it doesn't seem to be a winning situation for anybody. Unless Yoshi P can stick with 'git gud' and not succumb to every casual complaint. Example: I loved Cleric Stance the way it was pre 4.0, and it's a mechanic of the role that I miss the most. But I literally only saw maybe 3 other healers on this entire forum actually agree with me. Everyone wants easy mode, so that's what we're stuck with.
Cleric stance, though? That can stay dead. That was just a clunky, error prone buff management thing. It was really great at catching newbies on an encounter they don't know that well by pushing it at the wrong time and not being able to heal, but I IMO "memorize when you can push the button that cripples your healing and makes your DPS spells actually work" is adding a whole lot of value. -
09-12-2017, 12:12 PMBourne_EndeavorThis is precisely what I hoped they rectified. Instead, Stormblood went the opposite route by further simplifying healer's DPS kit while still not necessitating enough healing. White Mage is a prime example of this-- where it's incredibly powerful yet that healing potency only translates into more Aeros and Stones since there just isn't nearly enough content warranting what it's actually good at.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tridus
Frankly, I agree with your second post. They should nerf healing potency and/or have less predictable "healer checks." Unfortunately, I doubt it will ever happen outside the last fight of Savage and Ultimate. -
09-12-2017, 01:40 PMKabzyI appreciate everyone has different opinions and I do see that the majority of people like the removal of CS. However, I'd disagree with it being clunky and error prone. If you knew how and when to use it, you'd never have any issues. And the 5 second recast wasn't really clunky, it was just a penalty which I'm pretty sure was intentional. It was just something that added one tiny layer of skill to healers, which has been pruned to death in 4.0. I can only hope they'll not continue this trend for 5.0.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tridus
And I agree with your other comments. No matter how hard content gets, it's always going to be: 1) Heal through the damage spikes and 2) Throw out as much DPS as you can when everyone knows how to do mechanics. Until they give an overhaul to the role and the content design, healing is going to be stuck like this. That could also contribute to why fewer people are holding an interest in this role. -
09-12-2017, 02:32 PMera1Ne
(Some) healers will always do dmg, because the skill level is very different between healers. Even in easy content like dungeons you got people who can't do any dmg during big pulls, guys who can throw a few dmg skills in there and then very experienced players who use more dmg then healing skills, despite this being a big pull. This will never change and therefore dmg will always be a part of it, (which i like). Of course they could try to make more content like v3 or v4 (using some recent example), but then many, many healers wouldn't be able to heal this, just like random dmg/mechanics in a fight over and over again. And then the questions would be (often imo), can we clear this with the pug healer at all, instead of will he dps in the dungeon?
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09-12-2017, 02:37 PMtechnole
One can argue the cleric stance change was a way to nerf healer DPS, along with the removal of several DoTs. Still it's always going to be required in savage, the DPS shortfall is too large in the early weeks and months to clear the later floors.
This Deltascape savage tier is okay with healing mechanics. Not very difficult, but enough to ensure you use every tool you have in your kit. It's a little step-up healing wise from Creator Savage.
The last time they were about as cruel to healers was probably guidewire mechanics in Midas Savage where if you get deaths late in A7S/A8S it's just becomes un-healable. Encouraging more cleaner runs would be a good start again, because they gave us cooldown resets and no VIT loss raise sickness since then. -
09-12-2017, 02:52 PMAstral145You are 100% correct. The main ingredient that is lacking in FFXIV in general is creating helpful and friendly environments to learn and grow. As a matter of fact its not just limited to FFXIV its everywhere you go. I see this same mentality everywhere...work, school and other places.Quote:
Originally Posted by Teraluna
It's sad that most players cant take the time to help others feel good about learning something new.
For me its not about the loot or glamour in FFXIV... its about helping others. -
09-12-2017, 04:20 PMTaikaFFXI healers weren't DPS-oriented, but healing surely wasn't the only thing they did. WHMs were debuffing and DoTting enemies (Dia, Slow, Paralyze...), RDMs did the same with juggling Hastes and Refreshes in addition to that, and SCHs did both healing, weather buffs and DPS (DoTs and tier IV nukes). At least this is how it was back when I was playing the game before Abyssea. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Levian
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09-12-2017, 08:24 PMTridusI appreciate that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kabzy
I remember the first time I did Sohm Al hard. Having never seen the fight, I didn't know what to expect. A wipe happened because nothing was happening for a while, I hit CS, and immediately afterwards fire or something bad appeared, people stood in it, and my healing was so crippled by not being able to drop CS that I couldn't do anything about it. Had I not been in CS, I could have saved it.
Is that "skill"? Maybe. I don't tend to see it that way. I see it as memorization. If I knew that was going to happen, I wouldn't have used CS (and just either been idle or done next to no damage anyway) and we'd have lived just fine.
That's why I find the removal a good thing. The pure healer who never does DPS wouldn't have had a wipe at that point, but someone trying to DPS did. Do we want healers to DPS in idle time? Making them unable to heal while doing so isn't a great way to encourage it.
People are certainly going to disagree, and thats cool. :) I just don't think the game is better by encouraging people to avoid DPS so they don't accidentally cause wipes on new content and then have it turn around and go "well, now you should be DPSing because there isn't enough healing to do".
Yep. I don't see that happening before 5.0, so it is what it is at this point.Quote:
And I agree with your other comments. No matter how hard content gets, it's always going to be: 1) Heal through the damage spikes and 2) Throw out as much DPS as you can when everyone knows how to do mechanics. Until they give an overhaul to the role and the content design, healing is going to be stuck like this. That could also contribute to why fewer people are holding an interest in this role.
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09-12-2017, 08:28 PMTridusYou can argue it both ways. At the high end, it was a nerf to DPS because we lost that 10% increase it had on it.Quote:
Originally Posted by technole
At the other end, people's ability to weave in DPS while healing has dramatically increased because without CS before you were effectively tickling enemies. So you can get DPS now at points where you couldn't before, which has helped a lot of people to do more consistent DPS. -
09-13-2017, 01:36 AMtechnole
It was always easy to wave cleric windows for damage. It helping a lot of people is a bit of a stretch as there is a substantual amount of healers that still don't put any damage up, let alone even more than a token number. Even with less damage buttons to press. It hasn't changed the nature of the job that much.
Of course it doesn't help when YoshiP himself says things like healer DPS isn't "required", when we all know it is in high-end content like I mentioned. I just had someone tell me they kicked a 100 dps healer from O3S this morning, and the next person they got barely put in 300. -
09-13-2017, 05:54 AMOkamimaru
I think some issues stem from the lack of learning parties for savage content... that combined with having to set out a block of time each week makes it difficult for people to get invested... I'm a firm believer of watching video of fights before entering so I'm not surprised by a mechanic... but we need more groups willing to let people actually experience those mechanics first hand... take a few wipes if needed... as long as there is communication, a willingness to try and to learn, and a little patience then I think you'll see a better class of player... if the same person is dying over and over there is a problem then perhaps they aren't ready for savage content... it's called savage and not cakewalk for a reason....
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09-13-2017, 06:02 AMTridus
Watching a video is a poor substitute for actually doing it for quite a lot of people. Usually better than going in blind, but it doesn't translate to immedaite success.
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09-13-2017, 06:13 AMTaikaYou are aware that those learning parties don't just magically appear out of thin air, right? :) I have only been doing Savage in PF for 3 weeks, but every week I've done learning / clear parties in addition to or instead of weekly loot farm. I haven't had much trouble finding people for any floor. The people who want to learn just need to get the parties together (and sometimes it helps to advertise them in your FC/LS/by shouting in RR in addition to the party finder).Quote:
Originally Posted by Okamimaru
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09-13-2017, 07:17 AMKacho_NachoAbsolutely true, Tera Luna.Quote:
Originally Posted by Teraluna
The online gaming community has changed for the worse.
It used to be about getting together and learning and overcoming the challenges together. There was this incredible feeling of being in this new land. You knew the only way you were going to make it was to make friends, and when did, you took your time and learned to work with others as a team. When you overcame each obstacle, everyone celebrated because it wasn't just a personal victory. It was a victory for each and every one of your friends.
Now, it's all about efficiency and people treat the game like it is some pro sports event. Gone is the camaraderie of the earlier generation. Now, you have to be perfect or you are out, even as a beginner. As you wrote earlier, no one wants to take the time to teach or even build relationships. They just want to be number one on the parsers. "Second place is the first loser" is the slogan of the new gamers.
I just have to shake my head. It's xenogenesis. The children are not like the parents and I feel it's a social phenomena which will ultimately kill the MMORPG genre. -
09-13-2017, 08:54 AMSebazyDon't you think that's equal parts new game syndrome and rose tinted glasses making those memories seem super awesome?Quote:
Originally Posted by Kacho_Nacho
I really can't stress enough that some of the things I saw done in FFXI were far and beyond anything I've ever seen in XIV.
Griefing raid bosses, training and taking smaller cash cow NMs, stealing immensely valuable items from 'friends'. That game had it all.
When the community was behaving, it was great. But when it wasn't, it could get unbelievably toxic.
I'll gladly take a bunch of '95 percentile or kick' PFs over that nonsense thanks =( -
09-13-2017, 02:10 PMera1Ne
Most of the time this community is great imo and if people have trouble making an learning party for v1-4, then just take your time and start one yourself. I was raiding from day 1 this tier, but i started late in the past and now friends of mine, made a new static together. It works, if you take your time and search. You can literally ask everywhere, your fc, your ls, normal chat or in forums/on websites. On the chaos datacenter you can find training, kill and weekly partys for every raid tier. Especially for v1-3 and v1-2 are clearable with a complete random group, if again you take your time. Of course this will be different from data to datacenter.
I get searching can be frustrating, but at the end of the day, everyone has a choice to do content with the people he likes/wants. Additionally, you shouldn't blame those who killed v2 for example, searching for an weekly kill instead of an training group, since they just want their loot. There is nothing wrong with that. You want your training group, demand patients and so on, while they want their loot asap for the week. Different goals, different people. Take me as an example. While i am very patient and willing to help healers or others, outside or in mentor roulette, when i join an training party or do casual content, i demand from an farm group in ex/savage or even kill groups an lesser extend, that those guys understand their class and the fight (or at least are willing to listen and give their best). They also should be able to have some amount of raid awarness. I don't think their is anything wrong with that.
Something we haven't talked about yet is imo the interplay between the healers, which is a bit more complex than the dd working together in my opinion. Of course you can align your cooldowns an such as an dd to do the best raid dmg, but imo healers have to work together a bit more. Especially, if you want to play the most efficient way and have both healers attack and heal together. This demands for instance communication and you need to have the same mindset as the other healer for it to work best. This could be another problem, because not every healer has the same mindset and depending if you are willing to deal with an different kind of healer, you have to search longer or less long. This could result in statics searching for healers a while longer, aswell. -
09-13-2017, 04:38 PMQT_MelonI stated it before but I'll state it again, if you want a learning party, start one. Learning parties don't magically appear from people already working on other content. Learning parties generally appear because someone wants to learn. This mentality about complaining about the lack of them and not creating them is starting to become the PVP naggers that try to harass people to go healer (if they want a healer in PVP, queue as one).Quote:
Originally Posted by Okamimaru
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09-13-2017, 06:12 PMLastelliI totally agree. Also I see plenty of "learning party, be patient please" in pf so I'm not sure what these guys are even talking about. Straw man arguments everywhere.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sebazy
Of course we also have "high dps party 90+ percentile" and "skip soar or disband", nothing wrong with it. PF is there to recruit people with a common goal. If you have a different goal, don't join or start your own pf.. It's as simple as that. -
09-13-2017, 07:21 PMTeralunaStraw man eh?Quote:
Originally Posted by Lastelli
Ok no need for the post topic then as everything's apparently ok. -
09-13-2017, 08:59 PMSebazy
Straw man arguments are probably the wrong way to put it.
Rather I think it's a case of MMO's trying to confirm to modern game design and all the hand holding that entails but not quite getting there yet.
Compare starting out in something like Everquest or FFXI vs what we have now in FFXIV:
In both EQ and FFXI, both games would punish you hard the moment you set foot outside your starting town for the first time. I can still vividly remember having to walk backwards memorising torch positions in pitch black tunnels trying to get between Everfrost and Qeynos through Blackburrow thanks to the combination of complete darkness and no night vision. FFXI wasn't much kinder with powerful enemies frequently pathing through low level spots. Even at the original level cap you needed to keep your wits around you.
Whilst it's pretty fair to say that neither game could succeed in it's original state now (You only have to look at how FFXI has had to change to see that), both games did a 'good' job of weeding out the delicate little flowers from the game populace right from the get go. By comparison, FFXIV holds their hand and gently guides them forward right up until they hit the point of Extreme and Savage content, where it unceremoniously dumps them on the floor and leaves them to it.
Early ARR got it bang on with the likes of Titan HM and even Amdapor Keep requiring a decent difficulty curve leading into Coil. Omega is an improvement over HW tho, with the Savage turns having a decent difficulty curve as you progress. Hopefully Super Savage continues that trend <3 -
09-13-2017, 09:24 PMLevianBelieve me, I remember. I had a much longer post that touched on a lot more, but the forum is currently limiting me to 1k characters a post and I had to cut it down to 1/6 the content while still trying to grt at the heart of the matter (for me).Quote:
Originally Posted by Taika