I hate that BRD is so dependent on DRGs Buffs/Debuff

The OP is right, we should have to rely on the piercing debuff. Synergy is nice, being gimped by 5% cos you don't have a dragoon is silly

Just like how PLDs and DRks are gimped without a NIN, SAM, or WAR? Or how BLM and RDM are gimped without a SMN? I mean, it's a thing for all jobs to varying levels.

All melees have a resist down move. It's kind of their thing. If NIN existed on release, then WAR wouldn't even have it. Ranged classes don't get resist down moves. That's why they have melees in the party for buffed them. Put your ego away and get over it. That 5% is literally only 5%. If you re going to compare yourself to others, just add 5% to your DPS. If others look down at you without realizing you had no DRG, then they ar ejust FFlog baddies that likely feed or get feed to boost their numbers.

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Originally Posted by MauvaisOeil

Its not a matter of hardness, but how you lack ways to react to situations while the sam has the tools to adapt to anything.

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Now, now, let's be honest here, your analysis is very partial. I'll stick to the drg vs sam comparison to keep things clear.
1) you forgot to mention the most powerful mobility tool we have on drg, namely elusive jump, now on a 30 seconds cooldown. You can check momo's video on drg optimization where he gives a lot of examples on how you can use elusive jump to basically keep full uptime on any content currently in the game.

2) you're not properly assessing the opportunity cost of sam's disengage combo. I'll state the obvious here, but gyoten, yaten and enpi are a potency loss for sam over their standard rotation. Just like delaying spineshatter dive or dragonfire dive may be a potency loss if delaying them results in a lower number of uses by the end of the encounter and since you don't enter lotd as soon as you have 4 eyes because you must activate it with geirskogul, you actually have the chance to slightly delay spineshatter dive if you need it to move. Dragonfire dive gives no eye so it's even more flexible as a mobility tool. If we're talking about high level otimization, drg has actually more mobility tools.

3) encounter design. pretty much any relevant content is designed so that any job can have full uptime with a smart use of skills like shukuchi, tackle and so on.

4) blood of the dragon is actually very forgiving now since you basically have a 40 to 50 seconds window before it falls off. this means that the only encounter that forces you to lose botd is currently lakshmi expert.

5) you're also not considering the fact that while you don't lose sen and kenki during downtime, you still lose shifu, jinpu and yukikaze. this means that you need a minimum of 5 up to a maximum of 7 gcd to go back to your full damage potential.

Similar arguments can be made when comparing sam with mnk (tackles, riddle of earth, perfect balance) and nin (infinite shukuchi and the highest resilience to mechanics among the 4 melee jobs)

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Originally Posted by Enyalios

The OP is right, we should have to rely on the piercing debuff. Synergy is nice, being gimped by 5% cos you don't have a dragoon is silly

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Honestly, you're looking at this the wrong way. We aren't "relying" on the piercing debuff; our viability in a raid is not hinged on the presence of a dragoon, whether you believe it is or not. The piercing debuff is just a little bonus we can have if there's a dragoon. That 5%? It's a pittance, it's a minor DPS buff that doesn't even affect all of our damage.

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Originally Posted by KalinOrthos

Honestly, you're looking at this the wrong way. We aren't "relying" on the piercing debuff; our viability in a raid is not hinged on the presence of a dragoon, whether you believe it is or not. The piercing debuff is just a little bonus we can have if there's a dragoon. That 5%? It's a pittance, it's a minor DPS buff that doesn't even affect all of our damage.

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5% right now is anything from 200+. That's not pittance. First and foremost we're DPS. Secondly we're support. Yes our support is high but I honestly think that all classes should have a equal chance to be in the team.

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Originally Posted by MauvaisOeil

Its not a matter of hardness, snip

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Yes it is because for every player different things are hard. For some SAM is the easiest thing every and DRG extremly difficult and for others its exactly the opposite. Even really good players have different feelings for classes.

I agree with the OP, BRD/MCh shouldnt be held back by not having a DRG in the party. Yes we can say BLM cant get there highest possible numbers without a SMN but a BLM as a DPS class can already dust other DPS numbers without the need of a SMN. From a pov of BRD as a DPS class, it shouldnt have to be hinged on another class to provide a buff that literally every other physical DPS job in the game can do alone.

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Originally Posted by KalinOrthos

Honestly, you're looking at this the wrong way. We aren't "relying" on the piercing debuff; our viability in a raid is not hinged on the presence of a dragoon, whether you believe it is or not. The piercing debuff is just a little bonus we can have if there's a dragoon. That 5%? It's a pittance, it's a minor DPS buff that doesn't even affect all of our damage.

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You have to forget this notion of the difference between 'support' 'selfish' or whatever DPS. Ignoring true utility support skills (e.g. verraise, resource restore abilities, not damage buffs which aren't utility at all) all that matters is total raid damage. The BRD's own damage is part of this.

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Originally Posted by BubblyBoar

Just like how PLDs and DRks are gimped without a NIN, SAM, or WAR? Or how BLM and RDM are gimped without a SMN? I mean, it's a thing for all jobs to varying levels.

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That interaction is bad too.

A good samurai must not die so I would consider a raid dps lost when a samurai dies

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Originally Posted by Janhyua

A good samurai must not die so I would consider a raid dps lost when a samurai dies

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The problem is too much bad samurai...... But personal dps thread become another X job is too strong/easy and Y job is too weak/hard to play thread. Another silly thread again.

I can instantly feel the lack of DoT procs when a DRG is not in the party, lol. Especially during WM.

i'm not entirely sure where you're getting the 50 second BotD from? Are you talking about 30 second LotD to the 20 second BotD?

That means a DRG is entering LotD before an encounter break starts, and wont actually be able to use Nastrond during the break... So by the time the break ends, they are either in BotD with no Gaze stacks, or they have to enter BotD which has them at no Gaze stacks either.

On top of that, the positionals leave a lot of potency on the table, if they are not taken advantage of. All of this for lower DPS, compared to Sam and a much easier resource system.

I have accepted that DRG has been relegated to a DPS support role, but some people only see that final DPS number and completely ignore the utiility and synergy that certain jobs provide for the entire group.

Try spending 15 years relying on BRDs to be in a party for it to function at all and we'll talk. Also we hate you too for our debuff nerfed.

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Originally Posted by Coldbrand

Try spending 15 years relying on BRDs to be in a party for it to function at all and we'll talk. Also we hate you too for our debuff nerfed.

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15 years seems quite a long time.

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Originally Posted by MauvaisOeil

15 years seems quite a long time.

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FFXI groups were heavily dependent on brds. That might be where he is coming from.

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Originally Posted by Gravton

FFXI groups were heavily dependent on brds. That might be where he is coming from.

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I think ultima online has something about... well is that IRRELEVANT ?

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Originally Posted by MauvaisOeil

I think ultima online has something about... well is that IRRELEVANT ?

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Well, loldrg persisted so...

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Originally Posted by Coldbrand

Try spending 15 years relying on BRDs to be in a party for it to function at all and we'll talk. Also we hate you too for our debuff nerfed.

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Well, Disembowel was nerfed as an attempt by the developers to avoid the double ranged meta of DRG + BRD & MCH, so it's not necessarily a BRD's fault that it was nerfed. Especially since, from what I've heard, that speed kill meta is still the meta in Stormblood--except MCH can be subbed out for a MNK (I'm assuming for Brotherhood).

I don't feel that reliant on a DRG to get my DPS. Yeah, it helps, but even without having one in the group I do just fine. By making sure my melds are up to par and using food (usually NQ Grilled Turban, Sushi for the Prog) and keeping up my Straight Shot I proc plenty and can't remember the last time I was the lowest DPS. Tbh I feel a bigger dip between a static NIN and a pug NIN since we aren't lining up my WM+Raging with Trick attack as often.

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Originally Posted by HarassMe

i'm not entirely sure where you're getting the 50 second BotD from? Are you talking about 30 second LotD to the 20 second BotD?

That means a DRG is entering LotD before an encounter break starts, and wont actually be able to use Nastrond during the break... So by the time the break ends, they are either in BotD with no Gaze stacks, or they have to enter BotD which has them at no Gaze stacks either..

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I'm quite sure he is adding botd timer to the botd refresh, which takes it back up to 20 seconds even if you are at 1 second remaining. He isn't taking into account the combos needed to maintain it though, so even if you had refreshed, you still need to combo to keep botd rolling, so that cuts around 10 seconds off the downtime you can get away with if you want to maintain buffs without losing damage. You could do it quicker, but that requires an aoe combo which is a massive loss in damage. In short, he doesn't understand dragoon.