Near Future Changes for PvP

I've heard allllllllllllllll about it. But it's still beside the point, just ban the people that are win trading. SE doesn't ban people for some reason, they get a slap on the wrist, then continue to do it. If they want any respect to be given to this game's PvP then they need to treat it like they want it to be; competitive. You don't have competitive environments in solo queue, and you never will because it's always 100% chaos. Chat restriction just makes it even harder to try and coordinate with people you may not have ever played with. If they want any sort of E-sport to happen to this game, they need to give us ranked group queues, and BAN those who abuse it without warning. Period.

Having PvP in a game doesn't immediately mean they want it to be an "e-sport". FFXIV isn't a "PvP first, PvE second" type of game. As much as I hate it, solo queue is rather fair to everyone as everyone has the chance of getting those people who don't care and are just there for some arbitrary reason. If they added full team queues, that would be an insanely big advantage, far more than just a duo queue. It may not be everyone's cup of tea, but Square is being very "fair" with how they set up PvP where persistence > skill. When I say "fair", that's to the people who don't PvP seriously. To the people that do, it's an understandable nightmare. And banning people for such a small offense is silly. You can't just ban people left and right without warning. That's how you lose customers.

The producers have been quoted directly stating that they want the Feast to become an E-sport. And yes, you can ban people who abuse the system without warning or they will just keep doing it. I don't see how you don't understand that. They give out rewards once per season, and people who want that prestige desperately enough will do anything to get it, even win trade. If they don't get punished for it, why stop? If they are going to cheat, then ban them. The world is better off without them.

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Originally Posted by Krolja

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Even if they do want it, they'll need to actually balance it first. Besides, saying FFXIV is an e-sports is a joke because it's not a pvp game at its core. And I know full well how badly people want to succeed here. But again, because pvp isn't the sole focus of this game, wintrading is a smaller matter. If they put more of a pvp presence into the game, then perhaps wintrading would be taken more seriously. PvP in this game doesn't progress anything. The rewards are mostly cosmetic and bragging rights. This isn't League of Legends, or games of that ilk where PvP is practically the entire game. I don't see how you don't understand that.

Well first off I want to at least celebrate that we as a pvp community got a response which is all we really want even if it is an "We have no clue yet"! We are definitely being heard to some extent. I am glad they are entertaining the idea of this being an Esport, it gets our PvP blood pumping. I guess most..(you know what? lets say "some" to neutralize it even more) know and feel that we are in no shape to fulfill that dream just as of yet. PvP usually leaves room for creativity, innovation and individuality. The current state with skills, with some if not all the jobs, leaves us with this Totalitarian ideology as to how each job should be played.

There is no room for "builds" ,"variation" or things to be used for the "what if scenarios". This catering to the PvE community (neglects the needs of the PvP realm. Simply put there is no way (if that was goal of all these...changes) to appeal to a PvE'r to come and play PvP unless they genuinely want to. IM surprised that another mode is being made when these concerns have not been discussed fully yet... but hey power to New things!! But I am really curious if you guys are planning to cater to the PvP community a bit more with more variation in our skill choices. address tedious things like why does it seem like I'm kiting an opponent in an initially fun 1v1 but then you find out on their screen they are on you like white on rice (not fun), and if maybe you plan create two separate modes of a solo que for ranked and a duo que for ranked? (SORRYDIDNT KNOW HOW TO MAKE THIS ONE POST)

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Originally Posted by Zandeth

Even if they do want it, they'll need to actually balance it first. Besides, saying FFXIV is an e-sports is a joke because it's not a pvp game at its core. And I know full well how badly people want to succeed here. But again, because pvp isn't the sole focus of this game, wintrading is a smaller matter. If they put more of a pvp presence into the game, then perhaps wintrading would be taken more seriously. PvP in this game doesn't progress anything. The rewards are mostly cosmetic and bragging rights. This isn't League of Legends, or games of that ilk where PvP is practically the entire game. I don't see how you don't understand that.

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It needs to be said that this is truely a limiting concept to work under. If it's "not a PvP game at its core" then it would truly be a detriment to try and force fit it. But the thing is, SE did pull it off, and actually much better before. People just didn't want to learn it or try it, and statements like the above only validated reasons to not try. After the fact, we paid the price for it. XIV PvP became dumbed down, more rigid and limited, and all for the sake of a mass appeal. It was a bad move. Not all the changes were bad, but trying to simplify it instead of taking a more active stance to teach players how it worked (instead of relying on players to teach each other - see my comments in the "PvE/PvP Separation" thread for a better understanding), was not a smart move to make.

Whether Yoshi P wants this to truly grow into an E-Sport or not, it's time to stop thinking of FFXIV as a solid entity that can only be one type of thing. PvP exists in this game, thus it deserves as much focus and attention as any other feature or aspect. Failure to do so is a disservice to players that enjoy it, if not the entire playerbase of the game. Because when people no longer get what they want from it, or worse, when sweeping changes take away everything they enjoyed about it, they'll get it elsewhere, and that's how a game's population declines. That's how a game dies.

As for saying wintrading doesn't matter, that's just wrong entirely. Especially when SE themselves made a statement saying they would take issues of cheating seriously, and yet after 4 seasons, some of the most notorious cheaters and wintraders are still doing it, perhaps with confidence now that they will face no penalties for it. THAT is not okay. We're asking SE to hold up their end of their own stated rules here, despite being mired in red tape rules regarding reports and evidence.

On that note, I want to speak up now and ask the question - again, in hopes of a response - Screenshots and video are inadmissible as evidence of cheating or exploiting, because of the possibility of editing, yes? But at the same time, to make a false report against someone (that is, a false report with malicious intent or reprisal) is also a punishable offense, yes? With that said, SE, it should be noted that visual evidence should not simply be dismissed on account of possible editing, simply because the person submitting it is either a liar who would only be violating rules, OR the evidence they submit is perhaps worth review. I understand your internal methods of investigation can't be shared nor discussed, but players are more than willing to assist in keeping our competitive environment healthy and free of intentional misconduct. It would be in everyone's best interest to not stonewall them on account of negative possibilities.

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

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You make some great points, I will admit. Though I would like to remedy myself by restating that "at this moment" it's silly to consider this game as an e-sport simply because of how it is right now. PvP is this game is incredibly dumbed down, for better or for worse. If they were to matches longer, worth more, or even just properly balanced, it's not impossible for it to become a sport of sorts.

Also, I would like to sincerely apologize for my comments towards wintrading. I wasn't completely aware of what it meant, and only went off based on what the word looked to mean. That was my bad.

If we truly want to make a sport of this, definite changes would need to be made. More incentive via wolf marks or just rewards in general, a more fleshed out combat system, a means of proper communication, and such. The communication one is most important in any event as if we were to go into an e-sport with zero communication, that's just laughable.

Wanting chat back in PVP is like wanting someone to call out all mechanics in PVE. If you know what the objective is you won't need someone to type a paragraph to you on what your JOB is. I do think there needs to be more options for Quick Chat for the sake of "strategy". But as soon as other players are stressed and argue in chat. They could allow us to chat while the match is starting but that might be kinda troll too..

Ya because scripted content and pvp are the same thing, why do proplayers on lans even get headsets such a waste lmao xd lul

There have been many situations where I noticed something crucial or needed to convey something during the match that quick chat doesn't, and STILL doesn't cover. I've provided more than enough examples in the "New Chat Restriction in the Feast" thread, so I won't go over them again. But as it stands, there are simply far too many situations that quick chat just can't cover.

People only look at all the possible wrongs of having chat, but I still contend that if it's so bad, why then is it not restricted in PvE, where a broader spectrum of players and possible misuses come into play? Fact is, far more players just want to communicate effectively and win than they want to act rude or nasty to each other. And for those that often try to rebut with "almost all my matches someone was toxic in chat": what perhaps were you doing or not doing to illicit such a response? I ask that because for all my wins, losses, and huge mistakes, rarely if ever were people nasty toward me.

Sometimes it helps when you're pointing a finger at someone, to notice the other 3 pointing back at you.

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

There have been many situations where I noticed something crucial or needed to convey something during the match that quick chat doesn't, and STILL doesn't cover. I've provided more than enough examples in the "New Chat Restriction in the Feast" thread, so I won't go over them again. But as it stands, there are simply far too many situations that quick chat just can't cover.

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Right off the bat synchronizing limit breaks with a stranger who's skill level is unknown to you comes to mind.

After 3.5, there were so many times in 8v8s where there are multiple casters on the other team and I wanted so badly to be able to type and tell my team "Don't fight on the choke point bridge against casters. Jump over the fences on both sides". . . but inability to say so forced me to watch as SMNs just multidotted, BLMs aoe slept people, and caster LBs were stacked for free, easy kills. Meanwhile, their 10 stacked tank or melee was freely running around the center behind them. . .

Yup. Tell me Quick Chat can fully answer that situation.

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

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This is so true it hurts. People will also say anything just to disagree with others in subjects like this. Fact of the matter is, yes there is some toxicity, but it's the amount expected when competitive people meet. You see it in every type of sport or competitive outlet. It's nowhere near as free-flowing as it is in PvE where everything's scripted and by the numbers. There's a vast difference in messing up a scripted mechanic multiple times in PvE and messing up your own timing/placement in PvP. Another issue I find with the quick chat is it's too spammable. With open chat, you have to actually type stuff. With quick chat, you can just mash a button to piss off your team. If anything needs to be fixed, I'd personally wish to see the quick chat being on the top of the list.

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

Are there any plans to introduce/reintroduce skills to the PvP skillsets for each job?

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As long as this doesn't happen, I won't bother with PvP in XIV anymore. I really tried but it's so mind-numbingly dull in its current state that any other changes are entirely irrelevant to me; I'd much rather play GW2 and BDO to get my MMORPG PvP fix.

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Originally Posted by aeoncs

As long as this doesn't happen, I won't bother with PvP in XIV anymore. I really tried but it's so mind-numbingly dull in its current state that any other changes are entirely irrelevant to me; I'd much rather play GW2 and BDO to get my MMORPG PvP fix.

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Sounds like that one new guy in our FC where he asked "is this all the skills in pvp?" and when i said yeah he replied "oh well might as well stick with LoL then" and that was potential new player that got turned off by lack of abilities. Assuming all new pvp players are bad or dumb is not way to go imo some of them have experience from other games and genres but pvp core is still same no matter the game, its all about outplaying and mindf..king and in MMO's you need tons of abilities to do that properly.

And yet one of the many complaints (mostly heard from people that didn't PvP before) was "too many buttons".

All the same ones you used (not all actually even used) at level 60 PvE, plus 6 PvP skills, again, not all used.

This baffles me greatly.

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

And yet one of the many complaints (mostly heard from people that didn't PvP before) was "too many buttons".

All the same ones you used (not all actually even used) at level 60 PvE, plus 6 PvP skills, again, not all used.

This baffles me greatly.

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I tried playing MCH for 10 matches of 8v8 and it sucked. I couldn't kill anyone, I could only steal.. Classes are imbalanced and have way too little attacks.

Whose bright idea was it to make your only OGCD be 30secs long, only 1,000 potency, AND make the special effect require a close range AoE attack that has a 60sec cooldown and stun for only 2sec that also overheats your gun!? It's mind-boggingly dumb. I've lost so many kills due to no OGCD, no DoTs, no TP, and 10sec barrel cooldown.

Then Reload takes way too much TP. You're out of TP in seconds then you're useless since there's no way you're killing anyone without reload.

Meanwhile BRD can use Pitch Perfect(OGCD) doing 2,000, DoTs doing 3,000 over 15sec, Bloodletter(OGCD), Empyreal Arrow(1,000 potency OGCD) every 5sec, Sidewinder(OGCD) and then Barrage on a 10sec cooldown so you can happily push out 5,250 damage with Straight Shot -> Empyreal Arrow- > Sidewinder
EDIT: :0 Now that I think about it, Repertoire 3 Pitch Perfect would be a damage loss. Repetoire 2 Pitch Perfect is a 1,250 potency OGCD that you can use every 2 GCDs. Lol!

In Frontlines MCH is amazing(stealing and stupidity) but in 4v4 Feast... I can only imagine lol. I only. 8v8s, I'm doing 100k while BRDs are pulling out 200k.

I'm questioning why BRD got to keep Empyreal Arrow but MCH couldn't keep Gauss Round (I think of them as fairly similar skills), why BTE was nerfed into the shadow realm (after already being nerfed before that), and why Barrage is fine for tripling attacks for what could be up to half an opponent's health, but MCH couldn't keep Ricochet?

It's like they took all the best skills we had (literally half the burst rotation), and left us with the Heated stuff. Nice and flashy, but not really so amazing in application. Good pressure, but that's about it really. I understand we can increase both potency and recast with Reload, but TP needs to go the extra mile there. And please, PLEASE, I'm formally begging you SE: separate Stun Gun from Gauss Barrel/the heat gauge. There's nothing worse than going for a crucial stun while in a cooling phase and having it cancel mid animation because your gauge reset.

I still love the job, and it's still strong, but it's an absolute slave to the GCD and many of our best tools just aren't there anymore, compared to other jobs.

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

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This baffles me greatly.

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Yea it definitely baffles a majority of us. Somehow it appears we must sympathize for those who play PvE and cant some how make the transition over to PvP. PvP is meant to have some type of complexity and with enough practice complex does not even come to mind... more so fun and interactive. But i think the shaky pillar that the devs are standing upon is "mass appeal". They are failing to realize the FF14 community is like having a set of twins...although we have have a similar love for FF14 the visuals, values, aesthetic, story etc differences come about such as PvE and PvP... and you have to appropriate and cater to these differences with the SAME amount of love and passion. PvP just feels like the black sheep ... at the moment. Hoping for a whole Q and A segment LIVE,that best represents this side of the spectrum. With all of these similar threads,in essence, crying out for the same thing ...something has got to give.

Greetings,

We have few more updates to share regarding the plans for PvP moving forward.

Regarding PvP Actions
Prior to Patch 4.0, it was difficult to make modifications to actions for the sake of PvP balancing, as it would also have an effect on PvE. Now that this has become more flexible with the separation of PvP and PvE actions, we will begin to modify these actions, skills, and spells as necessary, including the possibility of completely replacing actions. However, please keep in mind that due to the development process, it may take some time for feedback to be reflected in-game. In the past, we did not make modifications to actions during a PvP season, largely due to the reasons we just mentioned, but we will be making modifications during PvP seasons in the future.

PvP in Patch 4.1
In Patch 4.1, a new large-scale PvP mode will be implemented. Stay tuned for details on this! Also, as we mentioned previously, data center-wide custom matches will be implemented.

As always, we thank you for your feedback, and ask you to continue to share it with us so we can make PvP better together!

*cough*giveMCHbackGaussRoundandRicochet*cough*

On a more serious note though, this is very good news to receive, as many long-time PvPers feel like the skills were pruned entirely too much. It's almost unanimous among us that we feel Sprint should not be optional, nor take up an additional skill slot, and while I can't speak for BRDs, MCH's MP restoring "Report" skill has entirely too long a cooldown for how little it offers, and generally seems unavailable whenever it's really needed.

ASTs have largely reported that Deorbit is of limited use in the Feast, and they would be better served with yet another skill perhaps. Red Mage seems to underperform in both Frontlines and the Feast, especially in that their burst damage requires them to go into melee range where they're far too prone for the amount of HP they have.

A consensus among members of the major PvP Discord is that ranged jobs are a bit too low on HP at 10K, which in the Feast makes sharing the responsibility of picking up medals a major liability for them. And as one of the more recent threads states, the medal system may perhaps need adjustment to bring it more reasonably in mind with the current PvP changes. As it stands, tanks are no longer able to safely carry up to 4 stacks of medals where they once could.

There's been a lot of discussion on changes we'd like to see, and I know I couldn't relay them all. I hope others will, or at least funnel them to me to share. And we REALLY appreciate the more proactive approach in letting us know (at least) that balance changes are coming hopefully soon.

A second dev post, about PvP? In no long length of time from the last one? What is this the twilight zone? Either way I'm glad to be here. Please continue giving us updates.

*achooo* Add skills dont just replace them * achoo* more variety *achoo* excuse me...heheh

But seriously, shout out to Zhexos for giving us a ray of hope and communicating with us!! ^__^

Giving back Warrior's thrill of war and the stun move would be a nice start, imo.

Some balance news is great, but is there any chance of re-implementing a 4 man queue or allowing larger groups to queue for the 8v8 mode? I'd really love to PvP with some friends but being restricted to frontlines only is somewhat boring.

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Originally Posted by Zhexos

As always, we thank you for your feedback, and ask you to continue to share it with us so we can make PvP better together!

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Nerf Cover, buff Clemency please and thank you!

Bolt needs to be automatic for everyone. There is 0 reason we should have to waste 1 of our 2 skills on this (2 skills is also too few IMO).

Give Red Mage more HP! We're like wet tissue paper in PVP!

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Originally Posted by Stormfur

Give Red Mage more HP! We're like wet tissue paper in PVP!

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Umm, why should RDM be the only ranged job to get more HP? BLM, SMN, BRD and MCH all have the same HP as RDM.

duo queue for 4v4 feast please just to make it less RNG based if you get a good team or not, and it would make it more viable communication wise as the current quick chat options there aren't really the best.

i know some people have concerns that a duo queue would encourage some win-traders, but wintrading happens anyway currently. all duo queue would bring is abit more skill based pvp rather than hoping you get lucky with random team mates :)

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Originally Posted by Zhexos

We have few more updates to share regarding the plans for PvP moving forward.

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Is it possible we could get some updates regarding Frontline? Like, the rotation system that Yoshi-P talked about in interviews before Stormblood launched. On Chaos Data Center, it's pretty much impossible to get a Secure or Seize match going. The Field Commander armor set is currently out of reach. :(

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Originally Posted by Zhexos

Greetings,

We have few more updates to share regarding the plans for PvP moving forward.

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I think we have a different definition of "update". Everything you just said has already been discussed.

We know balance changes are coming (when? Who knows. The 3.21 Feast changes in season 1 came way faster than now for some reason)

We know a new "large pvp mode" is coming and we know we will get cross server customs. We have known this for months.

What is SE going to do about the huge botting problem?

What is SE going to do about the people who have been blatantly win trading since season 1?

What's the update on The Feast tournaments being officially supported by SE?

What is the official rationale for supporting a solo queue ladder instead of a premade party ladder, in a game mode that demands coordinated team play, while also removing the basic tools for player communication?

If we're posting changes we'd like to see for our jobs...

Make Iaijutsu cast faster(1s vs 1.30) , there's no reason why Mnk/Drg/Nin can do instant bursts(between 4-8k+with Midare being 3.5k) and Samurai has to hope the target doesn't walk too far or go behind a tree/wall.

Also change Meikyou to add 5 Kenki on top of the 10 you get from the finishers to actually make it worth 250 TP. Otherwise it's better to use meikyou extremely sparingly.

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Originally Posted by NorthernLadMSP

Umm, why should RDM be the only ranged job to get more HP? BLM, SMN, BRD and MCH all have the same HP as RDM.

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Because it's the only ranged job with melee combo.

Why is the Dev sharing info we already knew instead of giving us new info. I agree with Kuso.

Recently, there is a short interview about PvP at Gamescon

Yoshida said that,

4.06a will have nerf/buff/tweak towards some class.

4.1 will be releasing 24vs24 new PvP mode.

4.2 will be releasing "Fixed Ranked Party" which allow each team to have 4~6 players in a team.
Regarding the fixed team, if i remember correctly, yoshida said that we will be required to register our team through website. I think he said we will be matched against other people using the website??? as our medium to match making. Yoshida also said that he probably will allow each of every DC "top" team to be able to fight against other DC in the near future.

I think the return of Feast Ranked Party is awesome~ but the restriction to be binded in a team is kinda "meh~"
However this will allow SE to keep track win traders easily in a way.


PS: Yoshida also said that he wanted to make pvp to allow lvl 1 player to join in the future :^)

4.2 -- interesting! Kind of like statics for PVE. I wonder if one person can be multiple roles across multiple teams. Otherwise it's gonna be like old-school playground games. :) I choose Koltik and Rum! lol

That FRP sounds more like traditional arenas where you can change some team members, now add old Fold on top of that and we could actually have proper old school arenas in here(i still don't get it why they made new mode instead tweaking Fold lil bit).

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Originally Posted by Synestra

That FRP sounds more like traditional arenas where you can change some team members, now add old Fold on top of that and we could actually have proper old school arenas in here(i still don't get it why they made new mode instead tweaking Fold lil bit).

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Because Soloq doesn't really work in a last-man-standing type arena mode.