Anyone Else Find Sprint No Longer Using TP Making Tanks Even Worse?

Anyone ever mildly paying attention won't be caught off guard by a sprinting tank. In fact it should be expected of tanks to do so. When the fights over what else is the tank going to do? Just plop down for a group pep talk? Of course he's going to head to the next pack, and utilizing a free sprint is a no-brainer.

As a tank it's frustrating to pull a group only to find that the BLM and Sam were right on your heels every step of the way but your healers refused to pop sprint to keep up, forcing you to waste Living Dead or equivalent.

As a healer it's likewise frustrating to go watch a tank jog along getting clobbered by each addition pack he grabs while I'm sprinting circles around him trying to get him to wake up and stop taking avoidable damage without ripping agro by healing mid pull.

Sprint pulling is a win-win. The sooner it gets more widely utilized the better.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

If the tank apologised I'd have been fine with it. Stuff like this happens. He messed up, sometimes I mess up too, we all mess up. No one is perfect. I have had mass pulls go wrong, the tank apologise afterwards, I say it's okay we can just try again or go slower, and we do the rest of the instance just fine. I'm not a diva who will leave the second I see the tank is less than excellent. I just want to do a dungeon without being expected to do the impossible.

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A healthy interaction. I like it when people do this, and I do this myself.
I groveled at my healer as PLD for dying on a big pull at the start of Ala Mhigo. Even after I used all my CDs to stay alive.

Really, all you need to do is to forgive each other for their mistakes. :)

Also a message to you healers who are sick of people sprinting off; we all mess up. Don't be the person who leaves after one mistake. Only leave if the Tank doesn't forgive.

If I do run out of protect range before it's cast, I'll immediately stop and obediently wait for the healer to give it to me.

Whether I use sprint for chain pulls, I'm not sure on. Probably not. If I do end up dying from overpulling and not being in healer range, then I'll apologise for it, and not pull as hard.

Most of the time it's my fault. The remaining times are when a WHM decided to use Holy Spam instead, and I got used to that from all the ruined Blood Prices in Heavensward.

You can always use rescue on them!

Rescue has a ridiculous high range. So if the tank decides to sprint away from your protect/cures... just "rescue" them and put them right next to you.

As a healer main, I can understand your pain, OP, but at the same time I have trouble taking you seriously. I never summon/change fairies without swiftcast. There's barely any reason to save swiftcast now that stoneskin is removed and you shouldn't need to raise anybody in normal trashpulls (unless there's some lvl 60+ mandatory long-cast heal skill on SCH that I'm completely unaware of).

I agree with most of the previous posters who say to keep a close eye on tank and sprint when they sprint. Healers adapt, they're not set by rotations like tanks and dds. Besides, you gave the tank your leave to do a big pull, so obviously the tank thought it was a greenlight to go for it. Hardly his fault for not knowing you weren't ready when you gave the opposite reply. When I tank and get a 'greenlight' from the healer, I go for it and concentrate on aggroing everything+positioning them+cooldowns etc. and not worrying if the healer might be typing something.

recently had a tank that sprinted ahead and pulled 3 packs while my sprint was on cd. even holy ground and benediction could not prevent the wipe...

i don't mind tanks using their sprint, but if he ignores that the healer can't keep up for whatever reason then hf wiping

It's honestly only a big deal if you let it be. I've wiped a couple times in a few dungeons, some were my fault some were the healers. The death penalty isn't very big, and you lose maybe 5 minutes max. Just correct your mistakes and move on.

I've only had one person blow up over me using Str accessories borrowed from my monk main that caused the group to disband. If we had just done medium pulls of ~2-3 groups each we would have finished, but some people just become enraged if anything is delayed by more than a couple seconds.

I don't mind sprint on tanks. I used it in HW on drk in some dungeons where it made sense. Some tanks in SB sprint off before protect is cast. I use to give chase, then I just watched from a distance to see how much they would pull which was often more than I cared to catch up to healing. Some tanks just sprint to the first mob and stop there, I can catch up, heal them and slip a protect on them too. Varies by tank. The tanks that sprint off before protect, I stopped worrying about that. They would be back soon as their life expectancy was only a few second when pulling everything. Slap a protect on them when they came back. If they chewed me out, vote kick and problem solved. I have to say before I quit healing in SB, I saw more tanks vote kicked so far in 6 weeks SB than in 2 years of HW.

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Originally Posted by Dregenfox

Even worse that you'd post on a forum shaming him for it.

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See any screenshots? Any names? No. Everyone involved is anonymous but myself. Please don't start blaming me for something I didn't do.

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Originally Posted by Lilyth

You can always use rescue on them!

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I have honestly considered it, but I am inclined to think that very few tanks would take kindly to the spell being used that way, whether it prevented a wipe or not.

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Originally Posted by Haprimac

As a healer main, I can understand your pain, OP, but at the same time I have trouble taking you seriously. I never summon/change fairies without swiftcast.

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I did that until I had a situation in which someone died near the start of a boss fight and I couldn't find a window to hardcast a raise quickly. I got abuse for it. Supposedly I was a noob for using swiftcast on anything that wasn't a raise or heal. Can't please everyone :)

You're shaming what they did, regardless of anonymity, which in this case is just bad. If anything, people aren't using sprint enough in dungeons, and that is infuriating.

...at least the majority of responses are pointing that out to you, which is good.

been sprinting since launch in SB, never have that problem, actually the whole party sprint 100% of my runs as tank, runs take 15-18 min depending on DPS, one of the best upgrade so far
Duty is Duty, nothing else to say besides "Hi", "o/" an protect.

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

Sprinting with a pull also means less time in transition and more time keeping aggro while dps go to town.

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If done correctly. :3 The amount of times I've been with PLDs that Sprint-Flash mob packs...but flash misses half of them and they eventually turn around to take out the healer when they try to heal the dying, Sprinting tank. Always a fun run when that happens.

I personally don't care if tanks Sprint or not. So long as they don't decide to Sprint ahead with a few half-dead mobs chasing after them when I'm rolling a melee DPS. :v Not sure which I like better: Sprint-Flashing PLDs or tanks that see "oh, these two mobs still have about 30% health left; let me Sprint off to grab more for my two melee DPS."

I think most people will agree that pulling as big as you can handle and moving immediately after each pull is the way to go. No one likes unnecessarily slow dungeons. From your explanation, I can only say that he was playing correctly, and the only mistake I can see he made was not checking if his party was with him before aggroing. But you should have all been there by default. "But, but...I was typing. Why didn't he consider my circumstances that I kept to my self". No you were the bad player in this situation.

Not that it's a situation to get worked up about at all, you just wipe and go again, but since you're attacking him unjustly I will defend him.

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Originally Posted by Rhyn

but since you're attacking him unjustly I will defend him.

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I'm amused that some people think I'm attacking someone despite the fact that I gave no names, no screenshots...not even a race. I didn't even say what dungeon it was.

Yes I'm sure he feels very attacked right now. He must be shivering in his boots at the mere thought of someone talking about him while trying to keep him as anonymous as possible. One more post from me will surely drive him to unsub.

And I'm amused you actually think I'm accusing you of attacking him personally. Obviously I'm defending his actions. Which you are attacking by claiming they are wrong and he's a bad tank blah blah. I really didn't think it required that much goodwill to understand. Don't blow this out of proportion, I'm just saying I disagree with your your viewpoint.

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Originally Posted by Rhyn

but since you're attacking him unjustly I will defend him.

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Originally Posted by Rhyn

And I'm amused you actually think I'm accusing you of attacking him personally.

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I regret to inform you that you're contradicting yourself :)

Penthea,
I want you to remember that a good Healer can keep a DPS alive with a small pull (4-5) where they have all the aggro. If the tank runs ahead with blinders on let him die and keep your DPS alive. A good tank WILL NOT run ahead without any healing behind them, and to all the tanks that want to do the dungeon as fast as possible, dying will be slower than not dying from a slower-ish run, keep that in mind.

It seems to be the norm for tanks to sprint off and double pull especially in SB content now regardless of where the rest of the party is. Due to the huge pulls I spend my time blowing every healing cooldown I have and chain spamming healing spells. To then get moaned at because i didn't dps... levelling ast means cards get missed because I'm so focused on keeping the tank alive... the fight ends and the tank sprints off again with any regard to the state of my mp straight into the next two or three packs...and it begins again. It's not fun to do these kind of runs! It doesn't actually save any time, just stresses the healer out!

I've been working on my Paladin levelling via dungeons (because why do it any other way?), and being on the wrong end of this annoys me so much that I never use sprint between pulls. It makes very, very little difference in how long a dungeon takes, and me not doing it means that if someone else falls behind, they can easily catch up. Thus far nobody has complained.

At the end of the day, the fastest run is a clean one. Sometimes stuff happens and the healer falls behind without the tank noticing until its too late. In a case like that, being able to catch up with sprint is going to save a wipe.

With soooo many changes going on now both healers and tanks are. As a healer if MP is the problem is rare that they speak up, however it's up to us tanks to gauge our dps and amount pulled. There are some really good healers out there and want full pulls and while others may not feel ok with it they still stay quite. Some players don't like to spend more than 20 min on a run ( God knows I don't ) however if a person at least lets me know that they don't feel comfortable with large pulls I can accommodate. The Sprint function is a bonus for us tanks, dps,and as a healer if tehy can incorporate it it's Gods gift to healers in a pinch.

A Tank not sprinting often means your stacks, buffs or procs fall of as a DPS, which is quite infuriating to deal with and slows down the run significantly. Just sprint. I always do when I tank, and others should as well.
I once had an amazing DF group in an expert roulette in terms of DPS and Healer damage, but the run overall still took the average 18 minutes instead of the fast 13~15 minutes, because the tank was dilly dalling around, never sprinting.

" Anyone Else Find Sprint No Longer Using TP Making Tanks Even Worse?"

Not really. It's just another one of the things they do I try to adjust to. In dungeons I am very familiar with, I have a tendency to sprint ahead of the tank if they pull with their AoE and I want to cure them during the pull so they don't leave me in the dust.

I'm actually kind of glad it no longer costs them TP. More of them do it now :p

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

I like when tanks sprint because we should all sprint and be done with the dungeon sooner.

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You make this game sound like it's not fun. lol

i use sprint always for big pulls simply to get out of the auto attack range of the mobs and eat less damage while pulling. and the sooner i reach the next group and gather everything up the less damage i will take while pulling anyway...

and since i play DRK i already spintet when it was costing TP, since i use MP for my aoe attacks \^^/

It's fantastic when a tank uses sprint when pulling multiple packs. For the sole reason that he doesn't get his head smashed in as he is pulling packs. People should always sprint. It's not hard to do, it's free and it decreased time spent in dungeons. I always sprint when I'm tanking, although if I see the healer is slow, I will halt a bit. But usually, I don't understand what the big deal is.

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Originally Posted by Starflake

It's fantastic when a tank uses sprint when pulling multiple packs. For the sole reason that he doesn't get his head smashed in as he is pulling packs.

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Well if you read my first post properly you would know the tank had less than 20% hp left by the time he stopped moving. He got his "head smashed" even though he was sprinting.

I'm not saying what you said doesn't happen, it does. I have seen it numerous times and it is a legitimate pulling tactic. But I have also seen tanks get smacked around a lot anyway even with sprint. I suppose this happens when the mobs have ranged dps and/or if the pull isn't in a straight line so the mobs, especially ranged, can have the opportunity to get some hits in.

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Originally Posted by KokonoeAiyoko

You make this game sound like it's not fun. lol

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Lol

I wouldn't say the game isn't fun, but the endless repetition becomes grating after a while. Being in and out faster helps with that a bit.

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

Lol

I wouldn't say the game isn't fun, but the endless repetition becomes grating after a while. Being in and out faster helps with that a bit.

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Ever heard of "It's the Journey, not the Destination"?


The journey is supposed to be fun too, and I dunno about you, sure maybe you get bored easily, but not everybody has a short attention span. But then again, I don't RUSHRUSHRUSH the content as soon as it is made available like a starving dog in a cage drooling over a steak either.

I do my daily roulettes and really the extra 5-10 minutes doesn't bother me whatsoever. If we get a slow group we get a slow group. Oh well. In fact, when I'm on my healer and the tank single-pulls, I love it. I can throw extra DPS and have a little fun. Sure beats Cure2 spam anyday. I can throw aeros, and stones and maybe a holy or three... it's a nice change-of-pace. Sure, it might take 5 or so minutes longer to do the dungeon, sure I might need to recast Protect as we're approaching the last boss of, say, Ala Mihgo or something but it doesn't bother me.

Partly because I don't spam dungeons non-stop and I don't try to rush to be first to endgame, lol.

I'm not saying that you shouldn't rush, but honestly if you do and then complain the game is boring, maybe you're just doing it wrong? It sounds like you are bringing a lot of it upon yourself. It isn't kosher to complain about a perceived problem that you cause yourself and then try to force everybody to tend to your needs despite what they might enjoy.

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Originally Posted by Maeka

Ever heard of "It's the Journey, not the Destination"?

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Ever heard that taking longer to do menial tasks, reducing the time available for enjoyable activities, is... less fun than the opposite? You're equating movement time and taking damage before any proper AoE or mitigation can be done to a "journey"...

Journeys, too, often take advantage of common sense in order to be (a) doable and (b) enjoyable. They don't refute the idea of using a car in order to get to your mountain hike...

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Ever heard that taking longer to do menial tasks, reducing the time available for enjoyable activities, is... less fun than the opposite? You're equating movement time and taking damage before any proper AoE or mitigation can be done to a "journey"...

Journeys, too, often take advantage of common sense in order to be (a) doable and (b) enjoyable. They don't refute the idea of using a car in order to get to your mountain hike...

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But yet you are insisting that people go to ridiculous lengths to shave off meaningless amounts of time. Take, for example, the guy at the top of this page complaining that his "usual" (lol) runs take 13-15 minutes and he got one that was 18 minutes instead.

Big freaking whoop.

If 5 minutes is so agonizing to to them that they're going to complain about it, then they should just log off the game. They've gotten to the point where it is no longer fun for them.

To be honest, if I were in a dungeon run that took 60 minutes+, then yes I would be annoyed because that's some serious dinking around/wiping/etc BS. But c'mon, 5 minutes? Are you kidding me? First-world problems, etc.

Fun fact: FFXIV was designed around the concept that you needn't rush anything and you're expected to play other games now and then, unlike most MMOs. I love this game, and this is one of the reasons why. Other MMOs want ALL of your available time and will punish you if you don't feed it enough.

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Originally Posted by Maeka

TL;DR "Play the way I do or you're doing it wrong and I look down on you for it"

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How many times can the same journey be made before the journey starts to matter very little?

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Originally Posted by Penthea

I just had a lovely experience of a tank sprinting off while I was typing and he pulled an enormous amount. Even with sprint I had no hope of catching up until he stopped but by then he had less than 20% hp. When we wipe all I get told was "you panicked" "use sprint" and "I had Living Dead on, you had plenty of time to heal".

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so you was typing and let the tank die? and now you blame the tank for doing his job?

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Originally Posted by Maeka

But yet you are insisting that people go to ridiculous lengths to shave off meaningless amounts of time. Take, for example, the guy at the top of this page complaining that his "usual" (lol) runs take 13-15 minutes and he got one that was 18 minutes instead.

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Saving 17-28% of the time seems more than a meaningless amount to me. And before you attempt to correct my or the previous poster's expectations, we're working under the idea that that is an average for the same scenario (e.g. a purely random group). My own level of tolerance before I start to check the time would be around a standard deviation. If there are no mitigating factors, mild frustration will likely occur by 2 standard deviations. That's just me, of course.

The primary reason for the complaints isn't that it's taking longer. It's that it's taking longer for absolutely no benefit. One has free access to Sprint. Neglecting it makes things less safe, slows movement, and increases the likelihood of reseting DPS ramp-up. For hitting a single button, you can quite likely contribute as much to the overall run as a third, lesser-geared DPS would. Forgive me, then, if I feel like that's time wasted when one refuses to do so. Do you feel happy thoughts towards a DRK who refuses to use Darkside?

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FFXIV was designed around the concept that

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Now, that, however, I do see as meaningless. Unless a design were pulled off really damn well, it's irrelevant. Intention =/= result. And I see no way in which this game forces you to play any more or less than any other, and I can't really credit a game that encourages you to play it less, so where is this even coming from? I've certainly played some more "at your own pace" games than this, partly because there's some actual emphasis on inherently interesting content and the leveling experience, rather than primarily just the endgame and its carrot-and-treadmill model (a mixed metaphor, but I have faith its meaning is not lost), but is even that proof of design? Most things you hear from a content developer after release are not about intended design; they're about mitigating or drawing the image towards what's favorable given their original and current desires for the game. Yoshida can say whatever the hell he wants about the game or how it should be played; that won't change the game itself in any way by which to make his statements more true.

Even then, I certainly don't remember any statement saying that one can pace any and all content as he likes, regardless of whatever desires his fellow players in said content may have. You self-pace by choosing the content and parties that suit your playstyle. Dungeons, being so favorable to sprint, tend to use it. If it means so much to you that it not be a contributing factor, you can either lobby for its removal here or create "no sprint" parties in-game. But expect otherwise that people will ask that you use your [freely improves run times] button. And that's what this has been about.
Fact: Sprint is a sizable contribution.
Point of Discussion: people aren't using Sprint, slowing progress yet with zero benefit.
Counter: people should be free to slow their parties! [Uncontested, but also irrelevant.]

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Originally Posted by Maeka

But yet you are insisting that people go to ridiculous lengths to shave off meaningless amounts of time. Take, for example, the guy at the top of this page complaining that his "usual" (lol) runs take 13-15 minutes and he got one that was 18 minutes instead.

Big freaking whoop.

If 5 minutes is so agonizing to to them that they're going to complain about it, then they should just log off the game. They've gotten to the point where it is no longer fun for them.

To be honest, if I were in a dungeon run that took 60 minutes+, then yes I would be annoyed because that's some serious dinking around/wiping/etc BS. But c'mon, 5 minutes? Are you kidding me? First-world problems, etc.

Fun fact: FFXIV was designed around the concept that you needn't rush anything and you're expected to play other games now and then, unlike most MMOs. I love this game, and this is one of the reasons why. Other MMOs want ALL of your available time and will punish you if you don't feed it enough.

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Since when is playing to your best abilities such a problem?

Meh, I'll keep up as best I can, but if Sprint is on CD, then Sprint is on CD. Like when both DPS in Kugane Castle decide to drag the bomb adds on that boss right over to where I am. Of course in that case the tank and I were both popping Sprint to gtf over to the tiny little sliver of safe arena they'd left us. But I have had times Sprint was on CD from boss usage. It happens. We're probably going to wipe if the tank goes zooming off like the Roadrunner, and they can bitch at me all they want when they die.

If the tank wants to use sprint he needs to have some situational awareness. That's the reason for this expansion I was forced to make a protect macro that says, "Casting Protect, Please don't sprint off yet". Tanks that properly utilize sprint while also paying attention to their other party members situation, always receives a commendation from me. (Maybe the healer has sprint off cooldown because it was used during the last boss fight.) I absolutely love it when tanks properly use sprint, and great tanks will always remember SCH's like to prebuff with Aldo and Excog before they sprint off to aggro the mobs.

So I would say it made a lot of tanks play worse, but the tanks that do use sprint well make them play MUCH better.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

Sprint

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I just dont understand the point. Everytime I zone in and see a tank sprint off while I'm casting Protect my first thought is...where the frak are you sprinting to? You're really not saving any amount of time that matters.

I don't find tanks bad I find the new sprint in general to be horrid. shorter duration and longer cool-down. Makes doing mechanics a pain.

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Originally Posted by Transient_Shadow

I don't find tanks bad I find the new sprint in general to be horrid. shorter duration and longer cool-down. Makes doing mechanics a pain.

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It's worse for casters, but actually viable for TP users in combat now, so that's a fair trade-off.

Mavis Beacon

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*exit stage left*