Is "Traditional" a cop out?

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Originally Posted by Galamantyl

hahaha. I find it hillarious that you intentionally left out Final Fantasy I, II, III, and V - three of which are the only Final Fantasy titles worth anyone's time (unless they're a noob).

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um.. what?

Posting me two bits, then will read into thread.

I think two things that went against FF14 and still trying to salvage are:

The original design based around turn-based combat in an MMORPG, thus involving slower paced combat. Battle regiments were built around the original design and don't seem to fit well with the present design.

The interface missing common MMO concepts, such as being mouse friendly. Can be expounded upon request.

The problem now with tinkering with the system now is how to change the core of the game and still keep all the players' progress? And what amount of conversion of your past efforts will transfer to a revamped system?

Innovation of the JRPG is what I know Squaresoft for. And I still salute them for their more international approach at FF14, their ongoing efforts with the game, and their consideration for their nation during these times.

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Originally Posted by Malakhim

I haven't been walking into any threads titled "petition for no auto-attack", that's for sure.

There also is a much better tool to use than polls, and that's actually talking to people instead of getting non-descriptive multiple choice or true/false style questions.

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The problem with talking to people, is the amount of people they would have to talk to. One thing to consider is that the forums, while a great addition, may only contain a small percentage of the people that polled.

And to be fair, the polls were descriptive enough for the people polling to understand what each answer meant. Each answer was a definitive yes or no. In this case majority rules and unless a few people who hated fundamental gameplay made thousands of different accounts, then the polls don't lie.

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Originally Posted by Wolfie

That's not a better tool.

I can't believe you're saying that polls with a gigantic sample size and PURPOSELY NON-LOADED questions are more biased than a person going on a forum, reading "appropriate" topics, and mentally tallying up the differences in opinions.

Are you trolling me?

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No, statistics will only get you so far and most social scientists will tell you that if you want the best information, you don't wait for the source to come to you, you go to it. Of course actually putting that to practice is expensive and uber time consuming, which is why it isn't done extensively but most agree in an ideal setting, it would be the best method. What better method is there than a forum where people can post ideas?

Also, keep in mind that while a bunch of people answered the polls, that's all that number is: people who responded to the poll. That doesn't include people playing the game and people who aren't, or people posting on this site.

Yoshi did say that the responses were in the "tens of thousands" which can't account for a huge player base since the game sold upwards of 600k copies on release. And assuming that "tens of thousands" is actually indicative of the player base, are you going to say that 25 to 30%(average) of the different regions populations are wrong on what is inherently something subjective?

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Originally Posted by Malakhim

Also, keep in mind that while a bunch of people answered the polls, that's all that number is: people who responded to the poll. That doesn't include people playing the game and people who aren't, or people posting on this site.

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What do you mean? If you don't mind me asking. It seems to me that your saying that the people who answered the polls are a separate group of people who don't play or post on the site.

I probably misread it though.

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Originally Posted by napalmninja

What do you mean? If you don't mind me asking. It seems to me that your saying that the people who answered the polls are a separate group of people who don't play or post on the site.

I probably misread it though.

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My wording wasn't the best... What I mean was that the people responding to the polls don't account for the entire FFXIV playerbase, I.E. There could be thousands of people who bought the game and never saw the poll, or read the lodestone, or cared enough to answer it or aren't playing currently. There could be people posting here that also never saw/answered the polls either. There could even be people who just posted to screw with the results. Given that SE removed the "players currently in server" feature from the game months ago, chances are we'll never know the actual player base size.

I could very well be wrong and that "tens of thousands" that Yoshi pointed out is indicative of the actual player base(although he never said as much), but being that we have a figure of upwards of 600k sales, I doubt it is.

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Originally Posted by Fiosha_Maureiba

The problem now with tinkering with the system now is how to change the core of the game and still keep all the players' progress? And what amount of conversion of your past efforts will transfer to a revamped system?

Innovation of the JRPG is what I know Squaresoft for. And I still salute them for their more international approach at FF14, their ongoing efforts with the game, and their consideration for their nation during these times.

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I had been thinking about how thy would keep players progress if they made huge changes as Yoshi P. said that they would never do a wipe. I figured that it wouldn't actually be that hard in all honesty even if they ripped out the current classes and replaced with traditional ones.

They already have a system in place that knows every single bit of SP/EXP you have accumulated you can even see it on Lodestone so all they would have to do in this case is after the update when you log back in is give you a way to distribute your total SP/EXP. You could look at what the new classes are and decide what you want to drop your points into, though they would have to make it faster than what it currently is for the attribute system, I couldn't imagine dropping 100's of thousands of SP 1 by 1 into a class ^^

They would obviously also have to give you a chance to reset it in case you didn't like the new class maybe 3 attempts and this would obviously only be for current and existing players, new players would most likely not be given this option. So with this you might find you have enough SP to have 3 classes at R50 or maybe spread it out and have them all at R40.

Whatever they do there are going to be unhappy people, what SE need to figure out is what they have to do to please more people and get more people interested and coming back to the game.

I wouldn't consider myself a 'wow head', though I played the game for awhile, along with many other MMOs (as I like the genre). I'm still playing LotRO and recently got into Rift (which is also a lot of fun). I like Rift because to me, it's what it is and is 'that type' of MMO. I'm still playing LotRO because of the lore, and will follow that one until the very end, for better or worse :)

I've never played an FF game before, didn't play the last MMO incarnation of it. I saw this beta about 3 weeks before it launched, and while I was sad I couldn't be an altaholic (purely because of the pricing model), I was excited to see my one character could eventually learn to be 'everything', and the world itself was just a big sand box. To me, it most closely resembled UO, and that is why I decided to play it, because it's a sand box. There aren't trees and roles and sub-roles and dinner rolls (mmmm). It's all just a big wishy-washy sand box.

So I guess I came here because to me it was different, and I think the world is beautiful (though not quite as open as I like, seems like there are places where you are forced down little channels and can't just walk around), the character models are outstanding, crafting is detailed and fun and really interconnected (reminds me a bit of an old not-so-popular MMO called Horizons, which had a bit of an interconnected crafting system).

Not sure what that gets me for an opinion, but it makes me a little sad that quite a few people seem to 'not' want a sand box, but I will reserve judgement until I see the changes as they come and make decisions about how far away from a sand box it becomes and go from there.

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Originally Posted by Malakhim

My wording wasn't the best... What I mean was that the people responding to the polls don't account for the entire FFXIV playerbase, and given that SE removed the "players currently in server" feature from the game months ago, chances are we'll never know the actual player base size.

I could very well be wrong and that "tens of thousands" that Yoshi pointed out is indicative of the actual player base(although he never said as much), but being that we have a figure of upwards of 600k sales, I doubt it is.

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Oh I gotcha, that makes sense now. One thing I do know is that the current player base is definitely less than 600k.

I'm sure that the polls are just a formal way for SE to prioritize what they should do first and that any changes will be decided by them first and foremost.

Besides even if not every person who purchased the game voted those are still pretty substantial numbers and it's really all they have to go by.

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Originally Posted by Malakhim

My wording wasn't the best... What I mean was that the people responding to the polls don't account for the entire FFXIV playerbase, I.E. There could be thousands of people who bought the game and never saw the poll, or read the lodestone, or cared enough to answer it or aren't playing currently. There could be people posting here that also never saw/answered the polls either. There could even be people who just posted to screw with the results. Given that SE removed the "players currently in server" feature from the game months ago, chances are we'll never know the actual player base size.

I could very well be wrong and that "tens of thousands" that Yoshi pointed out is indicative of the actual player base(although he never said as much), but being that we have a figure of upwards of 600k sales, I doubt it is.

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In November before they removed the ability to check the server the number of active player was believed to be around the 30-40k mark I believe and it was in pretty steep decline unfortunately and that is the only reason they removed that feature I believe as people were publishing the decline. I don't think even now it is more than that so 10's of thousands of responses could very well be a pretty large chunk of the current player base.

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Originally Posted by Malakhim

No, statistics will only get you so far and most social scientists will tell you that if you want the best information, you don't wait for the source to come to you, you go to it. Of course actually putting that to practice is expensive and uber time consuming, which is why it isn't done extensively but most agree in an ideal setting, it would be the best method. What better method is there than a forum where people can post ideas?

Also, keep in mind that while a bunch of people answered the polls, that's all that number is: people who responded to the poll. That doesn't include people playing the game and people who aren't, or people posting on this site.

Yoshi did say that the responses were in the "tens of thousands" which can't account for a huge player base since the game sold upwards of 600k copies on release. And assuming that "tens of thousands" is actually indicative of the player base, are you going to say that 25 to 30%(average) of the different regions populations are wrong on what is inherently something subjective?

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Except that

1. Forums do not contain the entire population of those interested in FFXIV.
2. Social scientists agree that polls with a random sample and a big sample size are extremely accurate and always viable, especially when polling/getting feedback from the entire target population isn't.
3. The people who responded to the polls are (accurately) representative of and certainly DO contain subsets of those that are interested in FFXIV, meaning current, former, and prospective players. See #2.
4. 600k copies SHIPPED. That does not mean SOLD. Even if it was 600k SOLD, it does not mean CURRENTLY PLAYING. Most recent unofficial estimates place the currently playing population between 20k and 30k. The last unofficial estimate before the search function viewing the entire server was taken out, was 41k. That's definitely in the range of "tens of thousands". Even IF there were 600k CURRENTLY PLAYING, a "tens of thousands" sample size accounts for anywhere between 1.7% and 15% of the ENTIRE POPULATION, which is a gigantic number that social scientists agree is capable of producing extremely accurate numbers.
5. You are pulling this 25-30% number from your butt thinking that it represents people who think the game is fine. It actually represents nothing, because no such poll was made and this number does not exist. Even IF this number was gotten from a direct "do you think this game's gameplay is fine" poll, it would STILL be indicative that the gameplay is not fine.

Please please stop arguing against cold, hard numbers. You're coming up with fantasy numbers and scenarios, and you're making extremely uneducated, unfounded, biased, and direction-less posts.

First off, more than half of the people who purchased FFXIV, did so because of the graphics. So much so that people went off and spent thousands of dollars to buy a new PC or hundreds of dollars to buy new hardware. So when describing what players want please think about the majority of the players who quit because the game lacked the ability to justify the extra cash required to purchase new hardware.

For example, having or not having jump means nothing to a player who spent thousand for a new PC.

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Originally Posted by Wolfie

Except that

1. Forums do not contain the entire population of those interested in FFXIV.
2. Social scientists agree that polls with a random sample and a big sample size are extremely accurate and always viable, especially when polling/getting feedback from the entire target population isn't.
3. The people who responded to the polls are (accurately) representative of and certainly DO contain subsets of those that are interested in FFXIV, meaning current, former, and prospective players. See #2.
4. 600k copies SHIPPED. That does not mean SOLD. Even if it was 600k SOLD, it does not mean CURRENTLY PLAYING. Most recent unofficial estimates place the currently playing population between 20k and 30k. The last unofficial estimate before the search function viewing the entire server was taken out, was 41k. That's definitely in the range of "tens of thousands". Even IF there were 600k CURRENTLY PLAYING, a "tens of thousands" sample size accounts for anywhere between 1.7% and 15% of the ENTIRE POPULATION, which is a gigantic number that social scientists agree is capable of producing extremely accurate numbers.
5. You are pulling this 25-30% number from your butt thinking that it represents people who think the game is fine. It actually represents nothing, because no such poll was made and this number does not exist. Even IF this number was gotten from a direct "do you think this game's gameplay is fine" poll, it would STILL be indicative that the gameplay is not fine.

Please please stop arguing against cold, hard numbers. You're coming up with fantasy numbers and scenarios, and you're making extremely uneducated, unfounded, biased, and direction-less posts.

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OK. You're still wrong about the original point though. The game has done plenty of things that other games in the series hasn't. Regardless of whether you approve or not can't dismiss that.

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Originally Posted by Malakhim

OK. You're still wrong about the original point though. The game has done plenty of things that other games in the series hasn't. Regardless of whether you approve or not can't dismiss that.

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What original point? My original point? The one that says gameplay blows? No, I'm pretty sure I've thoroughly argued for it the entire time.

The onyl reason why they are relying on the great aspects of FF11 and no other FF is because FF11 was the ONLY OTHER MMO THEY EVERY MADE and 14 is their second (Final Fantasy Title wise). FF11 was also a great success in MANY different aspects and they should have based FF14 off of FF11's foundation instead of try something that no MMO has tried before. They can do it with offline games but they simply just CANT do that with Online MMO games....

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Originally Posted by Stilla

First off, more than half of the people who purchased FFXIV, did so because of the graphics. So much so that people went off and spent thousands of dollars to buy a new PC or hundreds of dollars to buy new hardware. So when describing what players want please think about the majority of the players who quit because the game lacked the ability to justify the extra cash required to purchase new hardware.

For example, having or not having jump means nothing to a player who spent thousand for a new PC.

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It sounds like you spent thousands for a new PC >.>

ima get flamed but here is my 2 cents cuz I actually remembered a few things ppl failed to notice.

I don't feel ffxiv was rushed as ppl claimed. The game itself would look bad. If you want to see a rushed game look up two worlds (the first one). What REALY happens to ffxiv was technical difficaults the old team couldn't fix. People over speculated with no limits. And refused to listen when ppl said not to. I do agree that side quests should have been in game from the start.

But most stuff was put on hold due to all of the stability issues.
We were suppose to get compainies at launch, the added hair styles group crafting. But was not due to server stability.

They couldn't fix it so a new team with better experiance was put in place. They said sorry for how the game was launched. If ppl really didn't like the ideas, alpha or beta. No one would have bought the game.

People now or complaining for sake of Last i check graphics was bad before in ffxiv now cuz a troll thinks so ppl follow

What this game needs besudes a bit more to it, is a decrease in over speculation which is really killing the game off. SE can add all the content they want, ppl will over speculate how they feel it will be and turn out not the way they envisioned it. Will rant about it and make ppl see that also.
Ignorace is bliss.

Over spectulation kills games more then bad design.

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Originally Posted by Kilta_Firelotus

ima get flamed but here is my 2 cents cuz I actually remembered a few things ppl failed to notice.

I don't feel ffxiv was rushed as ppl claimed. The game itself would look bad. If you want to see a rushed game look up two worlds (the first one). What REALY happens to ffxiv was technical difficaults the old team couldn't fix. People over speculated with no limits. And refused to listen when ppl said not to. I do agree that side quests should have been in game from the start.

But most stuff was put on hold due to all of the stability issues.
We were suppose to get compainies at launch, the added hair styles group crafting. But was not due to server stability.

They couldn't fix it so a new team with better experiance was put in place. They said sorry for how the game was launched. If ppl really didn't like the ideas, alpha or beta. No one would have bought the game.

People now or complaining for sake of Last i check graphics was bad before in ffxiv now cuz a troll thinks so ppl follow

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If we look at Final Fantasy XI's release and compare FFXIV to that, then no it wasn't really rushed by those standards, as FFXI was missing a lot of stuff too. Thing is that you can't release an MMO in that state anymore thanks in no small part to the success of games like FFXI and WoW, which while having years worth of reiteration and content, basically set a high bar to entry.

FFXIV made a lot of interesting innovations, but they either lacked in certain areas, had arbitrary limits, or as Yoshi himself mentioned, felt very disconnected from each other.

Ultimately I've genuinely enjoyed the end product, but I can't say I haven't enjoyed what improvements Yoshi is making and will continue to make.

I'm basically saying in the enjd no matter how nuch is put into the game, if ppl over speculate it. They will wind up dissappointed. Be lucky with what you do have then with the have not. Least this game now has side quests.
Stop worrying about them having 1 min long CS.

I agree with that though, and ffxiv was gonna have more content then what we did get, but was all put on the side due to stability and tech issues. Not to mention the ps3 hiccup.