Please DON'T remove the Armoury system

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Neptune

Do you disagree with or dislike anything the current dev team has planned or has done?

---

Is being cynical and pessimistic a requirement to be part of the FFXIV community?

I love the changes they have made, and I like the direction they are going. I don't know how people can truely even judge the whole class/job relationship right now when jobs aren't even here yet. I hope they keep the classes around. I like the whole system. =)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by OMEGA_HACK

I really hate pulling from other MMOs to give/make a point but I suggest looking up some of the melee WHMs in XI, equipped properly they could out DPS some of the highest DPS-able jobs in that game...its not impossible.

And to make reference within the game, duo'd Toto-Rak (LNC and CNJ) from levels 25 (each) to 35, CNJ did engage (melee) on the monsters and made it A LOT faster (since you are under a 1hr time limit) and was worth it. Granted this was during 1.19 but I don't see why CNJ still couldn't do it now.

---

remember mages still had their darts and tp moves in 1.19. they no longer have either. the only tp move a mage can use now is second wind.

I would also be heartbroken if this system was removed. This is one of the things about FFXIV i love the most.

Frankly, I am questioning whether the job system is the most awesome system that could be implemented here, but without being able to see it in practice, I cannot come to a proper solution.

Might be too late to mention this here, but what I had envisioned was an unlockable class tree. Levelling up one basic class to 50 would unlock advanced classes in that area. Levelling up an advanced class would unlock a master class. You could even eventually implement secret classes that would involve finishing multiple master classes. I feel like making it 50 rather than say 30 would make the unlockable classes more gratifying to obtain and add a hardcore element to the system.

For example, if you ranked up Pugilist to 50 it would unlock, say, Monk, Thief and Soldier as advanced classes. Monk 50 would unlock Bishop. Bishop 50 and another master class would unlock Templar. I shouldn't have to mention the plethora of classes that have been used in previous FF's.

The possibilities are truly endless and only limited to how many unique abilities could be thought up and that is where the creativity of the developers would come in. You could have over 50 classes to choose from. Combine this with the armoury system and you could create a truly unique character build with so many abilities to choose from.

I truly believe this is an everybody wins solution here. Casual players can be satisfied with having a basic class at rank 50 and be able to participate in endgame activities. Hardcore players can aim to complete multiple master classes for a specialized powerful character build of abilities. For the ultra hardcore, complete all classes.

If the time it took to level a class to 50 was, say, 1-3 months, this would allow new players to jump right in, get a class to 50, and play with their friends. If there was a problem with coming up with so many abilities, abilities could be learned every 5 levels.

Anyway, just what I had envisioned for the armoury system. I remain, for the time being, to have faith in the development team to come up with a system that is just as awesome or more so. ^^

The classes as they are are doomed to either languish in obscurity or flat out be removed from the game. The "Armoury" system is allready giving off it's own death throws.

Class specific skills, bonuses on specific classes, ect.

Personally I hope the jobs do such a good job at defining our roles as players that the class system eventually dissapears and the developers focus on keeping us unique but usefull. Jack of all trades for all jobs ends up with everyone doing the same thing only slighty different way and ends up a boring homogonized mess as we seen at XIV launch.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jynx

The classes as they are are doomed to either languish in obscurity or flat out be removed from the game. The "Armoury" system is allready giving off it's own death throws.

Class specific skills, bonuses on specific classes, ect.

Personally I hope the jobs do such a good job at defining our roles as players that the class system eventually dissapears and the developers focus on keeping us unique but usefull. Jack of all trades for all jobs ends up with everyone doing the same thing only slighty different way and ends up a boring homogonized mess as we seen at XIV launch.

---

this is where you are wrong. with the new system you have the exact thing you complained about with the old system. everyone will not only do the same things, but have the very same setups of skills as everyone else on that class. that is under the system that you support now.

under the old system there were many more options on what skills and abilities you could use along with point allotments. that was tons of extra ways in which people could make their character different and set them up however they enjoyed to play.

no matter how bad you claim the classes were they were exactly the same grouping as there is now. there was a tank/mage/dd then just as well as there is now. the good thing the armory system did was allow many more ways in which you could get a party. if you are on a big server it may not matter much, but on a small server like i am trying to find a party at 9pm eastern when there is a total of 50 na players 1-50 on isn't very easy.

the original way allowed another class to fill the role in the party that was needed whenever they needed to. i'll use thm for example. it was the dot/nuker, but if there was no con online to party with the thm could fill that role and heal. if a gladiator wasn't available a marauder could fill his role. it allowed diversity and flexibility within the party for people to cover another party members role if there was not enough of that class to fill it.

at least under the old system we could have classes with completely different gear/stats/abilities. the new way you see a class and they are completely the same as the next one you see.

i enjoyed the freedom and that is why i got the game in the first place and stayed for a year and the reason i left xi after only 2 weeks.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by darkstarpoet1

this is where you are wrong. with the new system you have the exact thing you complained about with the old system.

---

http://gifs.gifbin.com/g655115633g6.gif

Wait...your serious.

Under the "Old" system every class could litteraly do everything.

Pug, Marauder, Glad, Lancer could all tank like pros, do damage, spike hate, nothing any of them could do was special in any single way.

Con and Thaum might as well have had the same name as there spells were almost interchangable a person playing the game would have no idea what the difference between the two classes was.

Sure it was "Freedom" but for what? Letting every single class fill every single spot in a party was a good idea on paper, but as we have seen it was terrible in execution. I'm sorry but if you get upset when you need to use a variaty of people and classes to play the game you need to re-think why you are playing a MMO.

"The holy trinity" will always exist, go check out Star Wars I hear it's rather loose with it's class system. Then again it looks like a single player game wrapped in a MMOskin to me, but who am I to judge. Just giving you a suggestion sense you don't seem pleased with the game current direction.

Not that I'm saying "GTFO" either, I just think it's odd that someone actually found the class system in it's earliest state enjoyable at all. The freedom just led to me being bored and forced to level other jobs just so I could be good at my main class. Hell at least XI only made you level the other job half the way, FFXIV vanilla you had to level it to 50 to get any of the damn good skills.

Leveling Lancer felt just like leveling marauder, hell even more so when I had all my marauder skills on my Lancers hot-bar...ugh.

Have to say I totally agree with Poet on this. The old armory system allowed much better customization of your character. The more you worked on the other the classes the more options you had to customize the way you used different classes. How anyone could think Lancer and Marauder felt the same in the old system is beyond me. In the 1.20 system there's hardly any point in leveling up another class if you're content with the one you're playing as. Not to mention if a class is practically useless like THM, there's no hope in ever using it for anything other than messing around. Previously, especially pre 1.18, you could run THM as nuker/debuffer, healer/buffer, or a straight DD. If you had a good enough party you could almost run some fights without a mage if the party had the right abilities in place and the players were good enough. After 1.20 it doesn't take much skill at all other than being able to pay attention to a health bar, and if your healers can't keep up you have little hope of being able to manage yourself enough to keep the fight going since you can't build TP fast enough or throw a cure on yourself that's worth half a crud.

In summation, old system = lots of variety and always a way to better yourself, new system = little variety and little hope to better yourself. Unless you want to play a different class because you really like it, there's little reason to play it other than saying you have it.


BTW, I kinda like the idea of unlockable classes. Then have the "master classes" require a certain subset of R50's to unlock them. Maybe a game will come up with a system like that some day. Lord knows FFXIV is going the complete opposite direction, so it's not gonna happen here.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jynx

http://gifs.gifbin.com/g655115633g6.gif



Under the "Old" system every class could litteraly do everything.

Pug, Marauder, Glad, Lancer could all tank like pros, do damage, spike hate, nothing any of them could do was special in any single way.

Con and Thaum might as well have had the same name as there spells were almost interchangable a person playing the game would have no idea what the difference between the two classes was.

---

I just had to quote this. Are we even playing the same game? Or do I need to do I need to start doing drugs? Sorry about the sarcasm, but I can't understand how anyone that really played the old system effectively could think this way.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Neptune

...
So at this point you have two choices:

Settle for a convoluted class/job system with a lot of meaningless complexity and inconveniences, or

Ask for the abolishment of the class system so you can exist as a more well-rounded character in the game world free of fetters.

---

Personally I think that the class/job system is much more "well-rounded" and "free of fetters" than things would be if we only had jobs (at least, the way jobs have been envisioned so far). Rather than being meaninglessly complex, I feel like having both classes and jobs adds a level of interesting depth to the ways we can use our characters. Since jobs can sort of be considered advanced versions of current classes, I'm not sure what about it would be confusing once we see the whole picture. Whether or not it's confusingly complex is probably something best left to be determined once jobs actually come out, though.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SuzakuCMX

...
The job system on the other hand is just giving up cross-classing skills to make your current class more effective....which makes me think that they're going to completely override the armory system anyways (since 8 people highly effective at their role > 4 jack-of-all-trades...8-job parties are going to be more popular than 8 persons using the armory system).

---

What about the times when players want to solo or low-man something? Not every role is well-equipped to stand alone or in a small group, so in these settings classes will really shine.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vaymathias

That's one of the two things about it that I didn't like, that and being able to use any WS regardless of weapon.

I always felt they should redefine class from "Sword user" or "Spear user" or whatever, and choose independently what classes can use what weapons (a long with linking WS's/combos to each weapon), such as in FFXI, while giving each class abilities exclusive to them and abilities that can be cross classed.

But here's what I don't understand. Jobs are supposed to be more defined roles, but classes are VERY defined as it is. Gladiators most damaging attack doesn't let them deal much damage as they would need to, in order for them to ever be anything but a tank. LNC and THM are in the same situation as a Damage Dealers. There is currently no way that Lnc could really do anything other than deal damage. They can't be a primary healer or be a primary tank, all they can do is deal damage, and THM crush the enemies with nukes. How are jobs supposed to be more defined than that?

In order to have classes and jobs coexist in this game, they'd have to make all classes excel at nothing, and be the jack-of-all-trades, while having jobs the specialists. Or possibly have classes as being base templates for jobs, but there would be no point for that unless each class has multiple jobs tied to it.

---

I agree that having classes defined by their weapons may not have been the ideal way to go about things, though it was an interesting concept. This fact may be part of the reason why Conjurer is a fairly poor melee fighter while FFXI's White Mage was relatively competent; White Mage could use hammers, which were good for smacking things, while Conjurers can only use canes and wands.

I think it's very likely that classes will eventually branch off into multiple jobs. It worked really well in games like Ragnarok Online (old MMO, I know, but still a job system people love) and Final Fantasy Tactics. They might instead go the route of adding new classes to become new jobs, but even in that case the path from generalized class to more specific job becomes an interesting measure of character progression, at least to me.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Isaveron

Because a system which is suppose to give you absolute freedom can not coexist with a system that restricts you, both are mutually exclusive and should be common sense to you. What we have today isn't even the original concept of the armoury system, it's a shell of its former self, so the new development team proved me right by their slow destruction of it in preparation for the new Job System.

---

Once again I disagree, and I think Jennestia put it well. Even in your own post you hinted to it: they can coexist nicely because they ARE mutually exclusive, so the fact that they differ so much doesn't mean they have to work against each other. Each one has its appropriate time and place. The Armoury system has been drastically altered from its original beginnings, but I think it's evolving rather than being destroyed. I agree that trying to saddle the job system on top of the old class system would've been chaos, but I think recent class changes have made it so that the two can work together quite nicely. Like the guy above you said, maybe by the time jobs are released, current restrictions on classes can be eased somewhat, since jobs will present a clear direction for those who desire it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Eva

...
Might be too late to mention this here, but what I had envisioned was an unlockable class tree.
...

---

This system sounds really awesome to me :D It would be great if they considered something like that!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jynx

...
Personally I hope the jobs do such a good job at defining our roles as players that the class system eventually dissapears and the developers focus on keeping us unique but usefull. Jack of all trades for all jobs ends up with everyone doing the same thing only slighty different way and ends up a boring homogonized mess as we seen at XIV launch.

---

As I said earlier in this post, what about cases where you need more flexibility? I'm happy to see jobs being added, but I don't think classes need to be removed just to make room for them. I agree with the people below you who are saying that flexibility doesn't have to lead to homogeneity. However, I think I'll take the middle ground in this argument, since I feel that classes were in need of reform, but those reforms seem a bit too stringent for my tastes. Perhaps as more classes/jobs are added to the Armoury, the need for cross-classing will decline, since players will have more options as to the roles they can assume. However, such additions will be a long time coming, and until then being able to build our own skill-set from the five DoW and two DoM is the best shot we have.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Maea

What about the times when players want to solo or low-man something? Not every role is well-equipped to stand alone or in a small group, so in these settings classes will really shine.

---

You can hardly solo as it is. Can't kill more than 1-2 monsters your level before sitting to regen HP/MP, at least in my (low-level) experience. Party grinding is already the most efficient way to get XP, and if Job-parties will work as well as they're supposed to, only sub-30 and solo players are going to actually use classes.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SuzakuCMX

You can hardly solo as it is. Can't kill more than 1-2 monsters your level before sitting to regen HP/MP, at least in my (low-level) experience. Party grinding is already the most efficient way to get XP, and if Job-parties will work as well as they're supposed to, only sub-30 and solo players are going to actually use classes.

---

I kinda hope thats how end up. Though it would be cool if there was an area or place where you can't use jobs.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jynx

http://gifs.gifbin.com/g655115633g6.gif

Wait...your serious.

Under the "Old" system every class could litteraly do everything.

Pug, Marauder, Glad, Lancer could all tank like pros, do damage, spike hate, nothing any of them could do was special in any single way.

Con and Thaum might as well have had the same name as there spells were almost interchangable a person playing the game would have no idea what the difference between the two classes was.

Sure it was "Freedom" but for what? Letting every single class fill every single spot in a party was a good idea on paper, but as we have seen it was terrible in execution. I'm sorry but if you get upset when you need to use a variaty of people and classes to play the game you need to re-think why you are playing a MMO.

"The holy trinity" will always exist, go check out Star Wars I hear it's rather loose with it's class system. Then again it looks like a single player game wrapped in a MMOskin to me, but who am I to judge. Just giving you a suggestion sense you don't seem pleased with the game current direction.

Not that I'm saying "GTFO" either, I just think it's odd that someone actually found the class system in it's earliest state enjoyable at all. The freedom just led to me being bored and forced to level other jobs just so I could be good at my main class. Hell at least XI only made you level the other job half the way, FFXIV vanilla you had to level it to 50 to get any of the damn good skills.

Leveling Lancer felt just like leveling marauder, hell even more so when I had all my marauder skills on my Lancers hot-bar...ugh.

---

and once again you miss the point. if you have multiple 50's now you can do anything. i can just as easily switch to my dd gear and go on lancer as i can play on my mage and be the healer. the only difference between someone playing anything as before was omg i need to equip a different weapon.

no matter how many times you say they played everything will not make it true. once you got into a party you played a role under both systems. i did not go into a fight as a dd/healer/nuker/debuffer/tank i went in as one of those. yes, i had the ability to change actions as needed to fill a role that was lacking, but it was to sacrifice the other role.

only people that were not intelligent enough to understand the old system couldn't realize this.

this goes back to my other statement. when i am online and there is a total of 50 na players online during na primetime hours how easy is it to find a group to play with? it was easier under the old system. there is no disputing that because it is a fact. if there's 50 total people online and i need a mage it is more likely to get someone into a group if i shout i need a thm or con than it is if i shout i need a con. that gives me double the chances to fill the party.

sure the thm may not have been needed as a nuker and we may have needed them as a main healer or buffer, but the point was they were at least needed in the party to fill a role. just because they COULD do anything inside a party did not and never will mean that they DID fill every role in the party. it just gave options to fill a weak point in the group.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Maea

I'm aware that Pugilist has these options now, but as far as I've noticed they don't influence my play style as much as my chosen cross-class abilities do. Plus, most other classes don't have abilities like these, so they have to rely on cross-classing to define alternate roles.



Why do you say they can't coexist? Personally I feel that they complement each other very well, since they have different applications and different strengths and weaknesses. Keeping the class system doesn't take anything away from the job system as far as I can see, and vice versa.




I think of it in the exact opposite way, actually. Why should we be locked into one class or job when most people in the real world have multiple talents and multiple passions? If people are willing to put in the work to master every class and job, why shouldn't they be able to? Conversely, if someone just wants to be the best Conjurer or Paladin he or she can be, there's nothing stopping him/her from doing so. People are free to role play both as single-class virtuosos and multi-class masters.

FFXIV is a bit unique in this regard because a much higher number of players than expected have gone on to level all classes to 50. In FFXI, another multi-job MMO, the average player (in my experience) would only level one or two jobs to cap, and people with all jobs leveled were considered rare and quite hardcore indeed. However, because leveling has been some of the only content available for over a year now, people have found themselves going back and capping more and more classes, and I've already seen quite a few Paragon's Crowns running around. If we had more content to complete (another issue entirely...), we'd be less likely to max out all our classes and more likely to spend time on our particular favorites, creating a greater sense of attachment to the class and fostering some of the role playing atmosphere you're longing for.

---

THIS! I also agree on changing classes on the fly. I haven't seen anything wrong with it, and with changing jobs in FFXI, I wanted to kick a puppy or a thousand. It was surprisingly tedious to the point that sometimes I just didn't bother switching classes. That and the loading times of the screen for the MH. I know that the load times can be remedied, but I really prefer this system to the other. I feel as if I can become anything, and I am WITH the class anyway. I AM a lancer. I've played that class for over a year, and I fell in love with my character for that. That and you can role-play as other classes at once. Role-playing does not have restrictions.

I've been spoiled by it. I like the multiple class/job type. It allows for customization (I believe) and for me it just seems intriguing. I want to see how it will play out.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by darkstarpoet1

and once again you miss the point. if you have multiple 50's now you can do anything. i can just as easily switch to my dd gear and go on lancer as i can play on my mage and be the healer. the only difference between someone playing anything as before was omg i need to equip a different weapon.

no matter how many times you say they played everything will not make it true. once you got into a party you played a role under both systems. i did not go into a fight as a dd/healer/nuker/debuffer/tank i went in as one of those. yes, i had the ability to change actions as needed to fill a role that was lacking, but it was to sacrifice the other role.

only people that were not intelligent enough to understand the old system couldn't realize this.

this goes back to my other statement. when i am online and there is a total of 50 na players online during na primetime hours how easy is it to find a group to play with? it was easier under the old system. there is no disputing that because it is a fact. if there's 50 total people online and i need a mage it is more likely to get someone into a group if i shout i need a thm or con than it is if i shout i need a con. that gives me double the chances to fill the party.

sure the thm may not have been needed as a nuker and we may have needed them as a main healer or buffer, but the point was they were at least needed in the party to fill a role. just because they COULD do anything inside a party did not and never will mean that they DID fill every role in the party. it just gave options to fill a weak point in the group.

---

QFT! The community needs more people with your mindset.

It doesn't matter what the old system allowed us to do, its gone for good and its not coming back.

There is a good chance that over the next 6-7 months classes could be removed completely depending on how players adapt to the job system.

Wishing things could have been different is a waste of time.

Armoury System ruins party play balance completely and I can't wait till it's out of the window entirely.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by darkstarpoet1

if you have multiple 50's now you can do anything. i can just as easily switch to my dd gear and go on lancer as i can play on my mage and be the healer. the only difference between someone playing anything as before was omg i need to equip a different weapon.

---

The important difference is that now someone who has ONLY LNC at 50 can play about as well as someone who has all classes at 50. Excessive multiclassing no longer gives you significant power advantages through cherry-picking abilities.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Isaveron

Either cancel the job system, or fully abolish the class system. Both can't coexist with each other, which is why the armoury system was gutted over the past 6 or so months.

---

Because you've seen them working together and know this to be the case? The point is that jobs are for large groups where everyone doesnt need to be self sufficient, but classes are there for more flexible small-man and solo stuff.

Seems like it should work pretty well imo.

I do think personally that they could've given class uniqueness without gutting all the class combos however. Why couldn't they give each class their own resources rather than just MP and TP? That could've led to more interesting behaviour and adaptation depending on your class. For example marauders having rage would function a lot differently to a gladiator who could use a combo system or something.

I logged in the other day to check out 1.20 and promptly logged out. Thanks for destroying my favorite part of the game, I guess my fears came true after all. What a shame, this is such a beautiful game but the new direction has broken my heart. I was really looking forwards to the class changes, I thought it would improve on what we had and instead I found my conjurer stripped bare and restricted.

So long FF I'll check with you again next year, but in my humble opinion what you've done to the classes is a throw back to what is safe and a waste of what the game could have been.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cendres

I logged in the other day to check out 1.20 and promptly logged out. Thanks for destroying my favorite part of the game, I guess my fears came true after all. What a shame, this is such a beautiful game but the new direction has broken my heart. I was really looking forwards to the class changes, I thought it would improve on what we had and instead I found my conjurer stripped bare and restricted.

So long FF I'll check with you again next year, but in my humble opinion what you've done to the classes is a throw back to what is safe and a waste of what the game could have been.

---

Well, IMO we should start asking the original FFXIV to make a return as spin-off game. This would give Yoshida freedom to get rid of every single renmant from the original game, including not only the armoury system but also the classes themselves, and give those who liked the original FFXIV and didn't like the current changes a place to go.

I'm not asking to change back this FF to other one...i mean a spin-off game...a different game so they both would stay, with each MMO following its own path. The original FFXIV is already "ready" to resume a beta test anyway...it would be awesome having not only the 2.0 but also the original FFXIV being relaunched at same time next year! ^^

The more people support this idea the better the chances of this happening! ^^ IMO it would be a win-win deal since the target population is different so, those who support the current FFXIV (2.0) would be able to stay here and have fun while those who prefered the original FFXIV could just move to it and have fun. ^^

...and SE would have another MMO that would eventually start receiving subscription. =P Everyone would end happy! ^^

If the game was perfect or even extremely inviting than, than s.e wouldn't have sunk a good million in salary, on techs, equipment etc. They are going iin the right direction imo

My MRD is no longer a hurricane in armor, I am disappoint.

I think my favorite bit in this thread was when someone said they dislike the movement of going from open world dungeons to instances, and then they cited Shposhae as an example of a working (yet dated) idea.

If anyone really thinks a level 15 public area is an example of content that can be extended into today's mmo market, I pity you.

Note: I was in Shposhae last night killing NMs for the achievement. I was the only person in the entire zone. Lolz

I agree with the OP, couldn't word it any better!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by viion

With the way things are now, I don't even feel like the Armoury system exists, it is pretty much less customization than XI's job/subjob system lol.

I would like the old system back, a lot of these skill changes or additions could of been added to Jobs.

---

Yup I agree. Do what you can and use Customer SUPPORT like I have always done for the pass 8-9 years.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by lamerider

Armoury system is the biggest failure option of this game imo.
it kills role play simply.
nobody can become Swordsman , Puglist , Mages.
Yes you can "play" it , but you can't "become" it.
(if someone has 50 GRA and ARC , and he says "I'm swordsman" , but how do you call him as swordsman while he can change it in 5 seconds?
he is actually just picking swords skill currently.
the truth of Armoury system is nobody can belong any classes since they can play everything..
only choosing 1 skill thats what we do, not being some profession.)
this is massively multiplayer online role-playing game buddy.
even i'm not hardcore role player , but..just sad to see zero role playing atmosphere in this game..
so i say Yes to no-armory system
and No to the armory system..

---

You fail! (like this if you don't know WTF this quote means).

This text is an abomination and should be deleted before it makes people dumber than the dumbest person to ever play this MMO. You have no argument and completely make no sense! You can't back up your statements and define your opinions so it's plainly bias. Get back on you level 2 class, get on the fail boat and go back to fails-ville.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lucifer

I'd rather they do away with it.

---

We can all do away with you and be happy. You fail too, go to "fails-ville" and merry christmas =P

I agree we should do away with it and just have single classes

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zemeckis

I agree we should do away with it and just have single classes

---

Be clear, what you refer to with "single classes"? Is it better than armory, better than jobs, what? o.o;;

Your a game, designer, please give more exposition!

What I can't stand about the current job system is your required to level other classes to get basic abilities. For example I am leveling Gladiator I no longer have a taunt because they moved provoke to another job. I am suppose to level that when I mainly playing Gladiator just to have a taunt? If you ask me this is pretty broken and annoying. A job which you are leveling should be able to stand on its own without having to level a bunch of other jobs which I really didn't have much interest in playing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zumi

What I can't stand about the current job system is your required to level other classes to get basic abilities. For example I am leveling Gladiator I no longer have a taunt because they moved provoke to another job. I am suppose to level that when I mainly playing Gladiator just to have a taunt? If you ask me this is pretty broken and annoying. A job which you are leveling should be able to stand on its own without having to level a bunch of other jobs which I really didn't have much interest in playing.

---

I agree. I support having multiples classes learning similar actions, just like WHM, BLM and RDM share the same spells, so you could pick which one to use based on what class you have leveled and based on affinity traits. But this no longer matters here since classes no longer share actions or spells and affinity traits no longer exist.

You do realize that Flash is, at the level you acquire it, more or less the exact same thing as Provoke right? And that they're both learned at level 14 on the respective classes?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Icecylee

You do realize that Flash is, at the level you acquire it, more or less the exact same thing as Provoke right? And that they're both learned at level 14 on the respective classes?

---

and you do realize that flash is closer to warmonger than provoke right? provoke pulls a single enemy and flash is an aoe . that is the same thing as warmonger was.

They already had an amazing game called Final Fantasy Tactics they could have reworked but instead they gave you the armory system.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by darkstarpoet1

and you do realize that flash is closer to warmonger than provoke right? provoke pulls a single enemy and flash is an aoe . that is the same thing as warmonger was.

---

..wait what? Flash is Single target you know.

*edit*

Just used it on my Thaumaturg, unless it only does AOE on gladiator it's single target...nope used on my gladiator as well single target.

*edit2*

I see that Flash becomes a AOE at 48, not sure how large of a AOE that it encases. Either way at that point in time you have alot of ways to hold hate without resorting to flashing a mob of enemies.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jynx

I see that Flash becomes a AOE at 48, not sure how large of a AOE that it encases. Either way at that point in time you have alot of ways to hold hate without resorting to flashing a mob of enemies.

---

the point was that the person said they would have liked to have a single target provoke type command. at r50 you have 2 aoe's and no single target. was funny watching edit 1 and edit 2 just to get to what i said originally.

As a non-career gladiator I can't comment but it looks like Gladiators don't have many issues holding hate even in crowded areas in my experience.

How well is shield bash for generating hate?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jynx

As a non-career gladiator I can't comment but it looks like Gladiators don't have many issues holding hate even in crowded areas in my experience.

How well is shield bash for generating hate?

---

nah, the holding hate isn't bad. the thing is when you are going into a group of mobs trying to pull one out it becomes impossible with the skills from the gladiator and sentinel class. it's just an annoyance, but i could see why that single target pull would be useful. i'm a non main either it's just one thing i've heard multiple complaints about because they have to have another class pull the mobs to a safe area and then they can pull the mob off and then establish hate.

the comparison of shield bash is not a bad one, but shield bash they have to be close where provoke was used to pull. it wouldn't be bad in mobs that don't aggro, but if you are around aggro mobs then it becomes an issue.

He didn't mention anything about getting hate on a single enemy at higher levels though; just having a provoke type effect. Which Gladiator does have. Unless he actually did mean Taunt specifically which... was always on PGL anyways? And they're (Provoke and Flash) more or less identical when you get them (which obviously isn't factoring in traits) even if they become different as you level due to Class specific traits.

If you want to make a case about not having every single tool you want on one class - I'm pretty sure that's the case for all classes regardless. But as someone that actually is maining gladiator, I haven't had many issues tanking since 1.2 (where as it actually was kind of hard before. Friggen MRDs) and am not entirely sure why you'd want to provoke a single enemy in a crowd anyways, since they tend to link like crazy. Might as well get them all on you initially until the DDs start peeling specific targets off to kill, since you can take hits and might as well blind them in the process. If you really need to pull just a single target out of a crowd that won't link and can't be assed to spend and hour or two getting to MRD 14, though... didn't they increased the range of throwing weapons?