I miss the old WAR decision making.

1. I didn't say it was mandatory. (you said required) I said it was encouraged. (The very design of WAR encourages it).

2. Yeah. We know that. Not sure why your brought that up. That being said, damage is still damage.

3. Where the hell did I say you should harass people for not changing stances?

4. Learn to read first, stop making up arguments I never said, and THEN I'll consider letting you respond to me in the future. Till then you are on my permanent "Don't even bother responding to me" list. Congrats, you're the first one on there.

I mean it takes serious skill to completely make up three different things I never said or even mentioned from one sentence

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Tank damage was reduced so that the gap between full DPS stance uptime and full tank stance uptime lost a lot of its weight on the overall raid DPS.

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A gain is a gain.

That said, stance dancing has always been a skill/fight understanding based thing. You don't just go into DPS stance willy nilly, you have to know when it's actually safe. This also depends on if you're running with a healer/healers you know or not, though there's plenty of auto attack downtime where you can freely go into DPS stance with no worries. I think Gordias actually messed with a lot of more casual tanks' mentality, assuming that staying 24/7 in DPS stance was the default and not what you aimed for after understanding the fight.

But yeah, in terms of stance dancing in general SE hasn't actually done anything to prevent it. In fact, our CD kit is so insane now (at least PLD's and WAR's) that it would take a whole lot to put us in tank stance with a properly coordinated group. A good rule of thumb is: If going into DPS stance will net you a group DPS gain (so no taxing your healers for more than you're gaining), then go into DPS stance - otheriwse, don't.

Also WAR's design kinda encourages stance dancing as you do gain an important benefit from going into Deliverance (significantly more damage and significantly stronger gauge-based abilities, especially with the addition of IR). They mainly just made it clunky and annoying without removing the reason we still want to stance dance in the first place, thus making us still need to do it for more gDPS but being annoyed by the design.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

1000 char limit snip

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It would only be a jerk thing to do if they werent first warned about it but I specifically say in all My pf's "will kick for low dps", my healers are both doing over a thousand dps with peaks of 1700 and tell us to stay in dps stance. In pugs my mitigation is on point so the healers dont even notice. we dont need a tank stance to survive anything at all we put zero added burden on them by playing in dps stance full time, effective cd usage is way better for healers than sitting in tank stance full time. And with more damage you get a faster clear which means less healing the healers had to do, a higher chance of success because your not seeing all the mechanics so you have less of a chance for mistakes which would also result in more healing needed.. And no i am not being carried, in fact i make a good bit of my money carrying tank stance loving tanks through content.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

No hard DPS checks had required you to stance dance since Gordias outside World First Race, Tank damage was reduced so that the gap between full DPS stance uptime and full tank stance uptime lost a lot of its weight on the overall raid DPS
Almost as if... harassing people for not stance dancing is discouraged

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There is like.a 1500 dps difference between a full tanks stance tank and a full dps stank one. That's a lot of damage lost just because you don't want to play your class properly.

Preach my fellow tank preach

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Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

You don't just go into DPS stance willy nilly, you have to know when it's actually safe.

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And it will probably less and less safe to do so. For the first time, tanks won't be able to increase their DPS by equipping higher and higher accessories. At the same time, keeping the current i270 STR acc will result in more and more HP lost compared to your potential max HP and will make HP checks harder and harder. So, in fact, the DPS gain from your left side will probably decrease as ilvl rise, compared to now.

And, on top of that DPS will do more and more damage, only widening the gap between generated enmity, to the point of not having your tank stance will put you at risk of losing hate faster and faster.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

And it will probably less and less safe to do
snip

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Nope never gonna happen, we got shirk. You could have a dps at 8000 damage and it still wouldn't force a tank into tank stance with that skill. Shirk is ok and no amount of wishing on your part is ever gonna make tank stance the best option. hp checks are completely irrelevant for tanks, we have cooldowns for that, a stupid amount between two tanks. Shit i could do susano ex with 20k hp if i had to, you would just go double war for a holmagang swap then super cooldown swap then holmgang again. Also our dps will continue to scale from left most likely at a much higher rate than any other class to make up for our accessories not having any str.

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Originally Posted by Dizzy_Derp

Shirk is ok and no amount of wishing on your part is ever gonna make tank stance the best option.

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Shirl only gives 25% of your enmity, which, out of tank stance, is not that much

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Originally Posted by Dizzy_Derp

Also our dps will continue to scale from left most likely at a much higher rate than any other class to make up for our accessories not having any str.

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DPS and tank armor has the exact same STR so we won't increase faster than DPS. What makes up for that is the enmity we have. It's easy to increase the gap more and more while still keeping it below what our enmity multipliers allow.

Do you know the fight/content?

Yes? Great! Optimize away them Deeps

No? Just play it safe. No point in attempting to optimize when you (and especially the party) don't know the content.

PuGs? Gauge the party's capabilities. You'll know intuitively if the healer needs the cushion or not. If not, then deeps.

Statics: Just go nuts. Or not. You all know what works best for you.

It's that simple.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Fight or Flight doesn't boost your healing skill.

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Requiescat does. Your argument is invalid.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Shirl only gives 25% of your enmity,.

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If there is only one shirk then yes but if done properly then, my shield ot, ot vokes then shirks then mt vokes and bam you s hate lead the best dps in the game can't touch. Then throughout the fight you swap with shirk making sure you never have to do another enmity combo ever again and you never had to be in tank stance. Good shit.

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Originally Posted by KingFrost

Do you know the fight/content?

Yes? Great! Optimize away them Deeps

No? Just play it safe. No point in attempting to optimize when you (and especially the party) don't know the content.

PuGs? Gauge the party's capabilities. You'll know intuitively if the healer needs the cushion or not. If not, then deeps.

Statics: Just go nuts. Or not. You all know what works best for you.

It's that simple.

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See this is how a good tank thinks.^^^

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Originally Posted by Quor

Requiescat does. Your argument is invalid.

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What the hell Requiescat has to do with FoF being the same as Berserk ?!...that's just totally off-topic...
But I guess I could say that FoF and Berserk are different because WAR has Storm's Eye, then...

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Oh, and by the way, if you stay in DPS stance all the time because you don't want to lose some of your precious DPS, you're also being carried...by your healers.

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This isn't true unless you're doing progression (i.e. you don't know what's gonna happen next) at least so far in susano and lakshmi ex healers can't make up the difference between full dps stance tanks and those who switch back and forth. As long as we're not reducing healers' dps more than the dps we're gaining then we're being optimal, not carried. Not trying to brag but unless you can show me a parse where tanks use tank stance but the total dps of 2 tanks + 2 healers surpass those in the top susano/lakshmi parses on fflogs then you have nothing to back your claim up.

Of course no one can say about savage, since it isn't out yet.

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Originally Posted by Dizzy_Derp

See this is how a good tank thinks.^^^

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I haven't even tanked seriously on content since 2.x, but the ideas stayed, only with more deeps tools. The mind boggles at how this is still a contentious topic.

As for War, I'd say buff War damage period, split Unchained and Inner Release (I just know what one does and realize it's too good and badass to pass up) and please God remove the penalty for Stance Dancing.

I'm leveling War again since it's my OG class and I miss tanking (queues lol), and I actually really like the beast gauge. It's weird. The class actually feels more fluid in action and is more fun (A lot more active), but that stance dance penalty is the worst feeling thing I've touched on a class in a long time. It makes Riddle of Fire feel smooth like butter. Makes me not wanna stance dance, which is counter to how any knowledge, optimizing tank plays. It sucks since, like I said, the class overall feels good.

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Originally Posted by aleph_null

Not trying to brag but unless you can show me a parse where tanks use tank stance but the total dps of 2 tanks + 2 healers surpass those in the top susano/lakshmi parses on fflogs then you have nothing to back your claim up.

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He can't because such a thing doesn't exist. See to get a top parse you have to be good, and good players don't use tank stance. Unless like you said we don't know the fight. It would be stupid to run in full dps stance during prog you would die to everything and slow prog to a crawl.