Shower thought...There is no shortage of tanks.

for me, it isn't even the attitudes or skills of people in df that keep me from tanking... For example I have gone into every dungeon and trial in SB that I have done so far, as a dps and completely blind without studying the fights. And I have done mostly ok just by staying out of bad and by my knowledge of past fights and the tells that are used. If I had tanked them though, I would have actually needed to know the fights to tank them. When to swap, where to move/face the mob, etc... I have played, dps, heals, and main tanked for more than a few statics in this game and tanking is by far the most knowledge and skill intensive by a huge margin. It is just too much stress having to be perfect all the time to do it. Why tank when I can just relax and dps or heal?

There are only two reasons to not run every roulette with your friends: you'll not get commendations (which are required for a mount). And Khloe journal, you need seals from first-time bonuses if you want to reshuffle.

All these horror stories and I've never ran into an issue when tanking in Duty Finder.

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Originally Posted by FallenArisen0990

All these horror stories and I've never ran into an issue when tanking in Duty Finder.

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I have the opposite experience:

When I don't queue with friends, I get nothing but morons. Healers that do nothing but spam Cure every GCD, DPS that single-target when I pull 6 packs, every flavor of bad you can imagine.

I HATE tanking for PUG's. I almost exclusively bring my wife just so I know there's one person I can trust.

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Originally Posted by FallenArisen0990

All these horror stories and I've never ran into an issue when tanking in Duty Finder.

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Don't think you get the healer type who let you die on 1 pack of monster

According to the previous census (2015-2016), you are right, there is no shortage of tanks or healers.

It is as you stated, tanks/healers mains like to do DF as other roles.

Personally, as soon as I have my tank and healer leveled to 70, I'll do dailies and 24 man raids with them.

I guess it's possible that there are plenty of tanks that don't want to DF, but that still doesn't help people who do use DF.
After all, some people want/need their DF roulette rewards and other people might not have found good active FC's (or maybe they don't feel comfortable asking).

Also having a tank job leveled doesn't necessarily make one a tank. Some people might have leveled for achievements, and might don the job if requested, but that doesn't necessarily mean they're any good at it lol.

I have been playing so many years and i never had any problems as a tank in df in chaos center.I read all those horror stories in forums and reddit and i wonder if most of the people are trolling.I dont think playing with random people is as bad as most make it to be.

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Originally Posted by AmraTheDestroyer

I have been playing so many years and i never had any problems as a tank in df in chaos center.I read all those horror stories in forums and reddit and i wonder if most of the people are trolling.I dont think playing with random people is as bad as most make it to be.

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Yep, it is not as bad.

People just say 'bad' when players don't meet their expectations. Even if they are playing on an acceptable level.

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Originally Posted by MirielleLavandre

just b/c I hate dealing with the random nature of PUGs.

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Quoted for truth. I know more tank mains that won't DF with randoms. Oddly enough, I know when I'm dealing with a DF tank by the amount of buffs they pop (like... none) versus someone who actually tanks. The difference is night and day.

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Originally Posted by MirielleLavandre

What I think the issue is, isn't a shortage of tanks, but a shortage of tanks willing to tank for DF parties.

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If i knew that peoples in DF would not make content unnecessary hard for no reason i would probably use it more, but as long as they make it stupidly more complex than it needs to be i stick with premades, why should i spend extra 10min in there while trying to not lose faith in humanity instead doing it with friends and actually have fun doing it? So yeah i rarely use DF unless i am forced to.

Threads like this don't help in my opinion. If I'd never tanked and read threads like these I probably wouldn't even try it. The image these threads give off is of some dystopian nightmare where tanks get nothing but crap from DF groups for the tiniest of errors. The reality is nothing like that, I'm far from the best tank but I DF it a lot and I rarely get any negativity shown towards me, sure it does happen from time to time but ya know, idiots gotta idiot.

I don't do anything amazing either, most of the time I stick in tank stance unless I really trust the healer and rarely pull huge unless I really trust the DPS, at least in leveling content anyway. The most frustrating thing about tanking PUG's is wishing I was on my BLM if the DPS is low but if I was I'd probably still be in a queue instead of heading for the 3rd boss.

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Originally Posted by MirielleLavandre

As a paladin tank main, I was just thinking, all through ARR, HW, and now SB, people have talked of the 'shortage' of tanks. The general census for the time I've been playing (since beta) have always shown about a 25%, 25%, 50% (tank/healer/dps) distribution. Even HW didn't change this much, as those that tank tend to keep tanking, while those that were dps but tried tanking often go back to dps. What I think the issue is, isn't a shortage of tanks, but

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hmm I dono about this when im tankin I tank cause I love it in general and also because I dont have to wait on other people I could careless if its fc memebers are not , I ask friends to help as a dps, but If im tankin I offer help just because I like it. But Im not waiting on three other people that wana do the samething I am jsut to tank df is totally fine so Id have to disagree with what your saying

I pug daily roulettes as a tank all the time. It's really not that bad.

For the most part, I've met some pretty cool people. And surprisingly, some players are actually pretty understanding,

Maybe once or twice I ran into an unreasonable person during a pug run as tank, but I can't even remember.

I think you just have to be willing to adapt to the situation. When I have players in my team who are brand new, I do take it slower. If the group asks me to pull more, I pull more. Just gotta have that bit of communication. It goes a long way.

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Shower thought...There is no shortage of tanks.

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To be honest my friends and I have often thought the same thing.. we put it down to a psychological thing.
people make friends and hang with people they have common interests and like minded mentality's with. So as a paladin main most of my friends also happen to be tank mains. it's a play style we all like and thus something we have in common. we all share a like minded mentality and that's why we get on...

Where players who prefer dps probably don't know as many tanks because there's not so much common interest that connects them and there mentalities are also likely to be different...

When you look at things like this chart though:-
http://www.finalfantasyxiv.com/Eorze..._JPEN_Census_L
It is true that the role distribution of players is not to discimilar from the role distribution of a party. (either 4 or 8 man) so that chart then suggests that dps queues shouldn't ever be a problem because the distribuition of roles is so closely in line with party composition.

For Raids / Trails in my circle of friends at least finding a tank is rarely an issue because so many of us main tanks. the problem is that we generally play together because we're friends. so if 6 of us want to go and do omega. we usually end up fighting over the tank spots while the other 3 tanks get dragged along as dps or heals. so what happens is that although the role distribution might be close to balanced there's now 6 would be tanks in 1 8 man party. and I think that's typically what throws the balance off. because those 6 tanks on paper could make 3 full parties but because we're all friends and running together we make just 1 party and as a result maybe only take 1 or 2 players out the pug queue..

when it comes to roulettes though (staying within my circle of friends) we're at a point where we've all got our tanks to 70 none of us needs verity tomes but we all need exp on other jobs. so now none of us wants to tank because we have other jobs to level... so once again you have a lot of tanks that are unable to tank because they're trying to level there other jobs... so what we end up doing is splitting off into couple of groups of 2 or 3 players and joining the queues waiting for a tank. thus slowing down other people's queues because now we've increased demand for tanks by adding more players to the queue.

This is where a lot of people have made various suggestions recently about things like exp scrolls so you can play as a tank but gain exp on your other jobs.. would be much better than the material thing they've added to AIN because most of the playerbase simply doesn't bother melding stuff anyway. (it's replaced in 2 weeks)

if exp scrolls were an option though people would be a lot more willing to roll as a tank as they'd still be able to level whatever job they wanted.
which then means people like my friends and I would not end up in the df queue as yet more dps. which in turn would mean shorter queues for everyone else...

Exp Scrolls when playing as AIN idea

Whatever sort of thoughts occurred to you in the shower about the proportion of tanks we have in the DF, the hard evidence points otherwise.

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Originally Posted by Dzian

When you look at things like this chart though:

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I think this chart has the same limits as the census mentionned by OP in his first post:

They do not represent accurately the situation following expansion release.

Judging by the time it takes to find a group as a DPS and tank, I'd estimate that the actual distribution was more like 5% Tanks 10% Heals 85% DPS at the beginning of SB.

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Originally Posted by Odeon

I think this chart has the same limits as the census mentionned by OP in his first post:

They do not represent accurately the situation following expansion release.

Judging by the time it takes to find a group as a DPS and tank, I'd estimate that the actual distribution was more like 5% Tanks 10% Heals 85% DPS at the beginning of SB.

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Yeah I don't disagree.

I think though the issue is many of the tanks have already levelled there tanks and as such are done with them..

A lot of my friends and myself tanks were the first things up to 70. and now we don't use them.

We don't do any roulettes on them because we don't need tomes or material (LOL).
We do however need exp for all our other jobs. So that then means its all those other jobs we queue as.

Pretty sure most people who main a tank role will have done the same. First thing to 70 and done as far as roulettes are concerned for the same reasons as above.

Then when it comes to trials and raids I think the tanks tend to run together. when I did omega for example 6 of us mained tanks but rather than all go separately as tanks we went together as various roles.. so that's 4 tanks less in the df queue straight away.

So it seems then that the tanking population is there. The problem is they just can't play those tanks even if they want to. Because they want to level other jobs and they can't do that playing as tanks...

There in lies the issue. which once again goes back to the ideas of things like exp scrolls/ potions for playing as AIN in roulettes. then players can play tanks or whatever the AIN is and level there jobs. problem solved.

Essentially think of it like ex primals / omega raids. I can roll any job I want without it impacting my goals or progress. if I want a susano bow. it really doesn't matter if I'm a brd a paladin or a whitemage i'll still be able to getthat bow. goal accomplished...

I wanna level my brd. my only option is roll bard.. rolling paladin or whitemage fails to accomplish my goal.... that's why people aren't playing those roles in roulettes..

Again I think there are a lot of over dramatic people in these threads claiming hysteria about DF experiences. I've come to the conclusion that if you as a tank are getting this much "grief" in DF as you are claiming than you are actually probably bad and that's why you are getting it. I've done DF tanking forever in this game with very minimal bad experiences.

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Originally Posted by MomoOG

Again I think there are a lot of over dramatic people in these threads claiming hysteria about DF experiences. I've come to the conclusion that if you as a tank are getting this much "grief" in DF as you are claiming than you are actually probably bad and that's why you are getting it. I've done DF tanking forever in this game with very minimal bad experiences.

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My complaints aren't about grief. I don't get crapped on or whatever in DF. My complaints are about player quality in general. Tanking for friends is fun. Mechanics get done. Healer DPS is strong. You can pull everything under the sun and it melts in seconds. Tanking for randoms is like trying to teach 1st grade students calculus.

Tanks don't leave Aurum Vale because it's hard to tank. They leave it because chances are the PUG they are in can't hack it.

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Originally Posted by Artemiz

Threads like this don't help in my opinion. If I'd never tanked and read threads like these I probably wouldn't even try it. The image these threads give off is of some dystopian nightmare where tanks get nothing but crap from DF groups for the tiniest of errors. The reality is nothing like that, I'm far from the best tank but I DF it a lot and I rarely get any negativity shown towards me, sure it does happen from time to time but ya know, idiots gotta idiot.

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It's funny because even if a tank makes a mistake, unless it's over and over again I never see anyone give them trouble.
DPS are replaced easy while if you kick out your tank you may have some issues.

With DPS needing half an hour to even get in, tanks (and healers) are almost held to a praise just for allowing the DPS to enter.

Reading through this thread has confirmed 1 thing for me as a Tank, 99% of you have the mindset that the DF is so toxic that 99% of the runs are not doable which is a complete and total lie. for like every 100 runs I do in the DF MAYBE 1 is bad. You people need to grow up and stop spreading hate on these forums over things that are simply not true in the slightest. I use the DF all the time to quickly get my dailies done on my DK and 99.9% of the time, not 1 word is said in party chat and the run is smooth, it doesn't matter if its slow pulling or mass AoE pulls the runs are fine. Stop telling people this is not the case and grow up. I see DK's crying we are glass cannons for mitigation and content is not doable in PUG's ARE YOU KIDDING ME!? I take barely any dmg at all in PUGS as a DK, Yes, Paladin is the best tank currently but stop spreading lies like the other tanks are unplayable trash. You fear mongers are the problem with this game, not the Duty Finder

Something similar to this was brought up in my FC the other day, or more specifically, the people who tank mentioned that they only tank in-FC/LS these day. None of them are willing to touch the DF on anything but DPS unless it's pre-made with a pt majority of us. Oh sure, if they need one last dungeon before reset and need the queue to pop *now*, they'll do it, but it's a rare thing for them.

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Originally Posted by MomoOG

Again I think there are a lot of over dramatic people in these threads claiming hysteria about DF experiences. I've come to the conclusion that if you as a tank are getting this much "grief" in DF as you are claiming than you are actually probably bad and that's why you are getting it. I've done DF tanking forever in this game with very minimal bad experiences.

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I don't think I've ever lost my head queuing with fc/ls people. So if what you state is true, then my fc is full of gods that could probably solo the place.

Or maybe the dps can start outdoing my auto attack damage. That'd be nice. (And no parser needed. If I can just afk in a boss fight and still hold it I can say something.)

most dps players deserve the queue times they get,i lost count with nasty behaviour in DF from dps,talking smack at new players playing tank.
then they come here and bech about queue times
recently had a BLM smacktalking cause a new tank in bad gear couldn't hold aoe hate on 4 mobs ,but the veteran BLM refused to adjust and just kept fire 2 and smacktalking
to the dps players here:you deserve the queues you have
you know why.

As a tank main through 3.X and still to this day, I can confidently state that my main reason for rarely DFing is a complete lack of faith in the healer to be able to do their job. Most of the runs I encounter are so obsessed with DPS I have to resort to IB spam on bosses, even with rotation of my CDs. Healers, plz be good.

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Originally Posted by Canadane

It's funny because even if a tank makes a mistake, unless it's over and over again I never see anyone give them trouble.

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I can concur with this response because I've seen my fair share of bad tanks. I would never call someone out right because they don't big pull or they're having trouble tanking because to me It's just childish.

Me personally, I just adjust to other's playstyle. Large Pull or Small Pull makes no difference to me. I've tanked, healed, and dpsed in the DF so I've seen how things are from all sides. 8 out of 10, many keep to themselves and just get to the end of the Duty and bounce before you can say, "GG."

My five cents: make it 3 DPS per dungeon. More will get in for the same amount of healers and tanks. Just adjust the numbers of the mobs. Problem solved.

I remember in ARR days, shortage of tanks? na... not really.

Join a 41-50 FATE farming group, 7 of the players are all Tanks LOL

I think too many people roll tank but are too nervous to queue up, so they level up via fates/side quests/palace.

I also think dungeons should be 5 players, 3dps 1healers 1tank

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Originally Posted by Rekujin

I remember in ARR days, shortage of tanks? na... not really.

Join a 41-50 FATE farming group, 7 of the players are all Tanks LOL

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So they weren't in dungeons back then either?

As a healer main, I can say that this mentality towards running random DF pugs that you guys are describing here applies to us healers too.
I myself avoid running DF with randoms as much as possible as well and wont run it more than I need to.

The main reason why I hate DF is that IF the tank is really bad and die from random things, either due to being extremely undergeared or for things such as trying to tank too much and/or standing in every single aoe and not using any cooldowns etc, people often sooner blame the healer than the tank.
I've been in plenty of situations where the tank is clearly doing everything in his power to die to everything (or at least that is what it feels like), yet I'm the one being blamed.

I'm sure the same thing goes for tanks too where the healers aren't doing their job, but the tank get the blame.
But since I haven't leveled any tank past 35 yet I can't really speak for them.

Either way, due to all of this, I'm not queueing up for random DF pugs unless I need to or if I got friends to run it with.

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Originally Posted by ZemusM

Reading through this thread has confirmed 1 thing for me as a Tank, 99% of you have the mindset that the DF is so toxic that 99% of the runs are not doable which is a complete and total lie.

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I totally agree. Some of these posts make me wonder if I'm playing the same game. I leveled paladin to 70 mostly using Duty Finder. Most parties have been perfectly fine, we clear the trash mobs, take down the bosses and everyone says "gg" "take care" etc and we leave the instance. Sure, occasionally, I would get a bad group, but it wasn't common enough for me to stop using Duty Finder.

It's a mixed bag, I think OP.

Right now, there IS a shortage of tanks in general. People who like tanking will generally stay tanking unless the tank classes are very very bad(which is what we're seeing a lot of now.) but you can get DPS people to tank if bribed well enough. The incentives they have in place are working very, very well.

Also, it's worth noting that in spite of the statistics they release in fanfests, they actually don't tell us what metric they're using to define how many tanks and healers and dps there are- are they just defining it based on who has it leveled? Total playtime on x role? Highest recorded ilevel on whichever role? We don't know. They could be fudged, even.

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Originally Posted by Synrin

My five cents: make it 3 DPS per dungeon. More will get in for the same amount of healers and tanks. Just adjust the numbers of the mobs. Problem solved.

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Adding more DPS slots won't change a thing, because tanks and healers aren't there for carrying their sorry asses when they can't play their job right and be on a acceptable level of dishing out damage.
That's why most of them stick to ones they know they can be relied upon with this to get their 15 minute clear ex roulette runs.

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Originally Posted by Umbeliel

Snip.

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There will always be a shortage, but the shortage is mainly not wanting to DF, take a look at the regional/server threads so many tanks asking for statics etc.

Most of us prefer to run with friends or our FC/static, there are many reasons tbh! but with the current tank systems in place and the legendary samurai now in the game, there is a lack of tanks willing to DF now. HW set the standard for a near perfect tank which was the WAR and now they have changed it, so only the dedicated and none salty tanks will still tank, but sadly they still prefer not to DF or have moved on to play and level DPS until SE has or if corrects there tank job that they prefer and want to work.

Players follow trends eventually it will phase out and things will get more stabler, SE will change actions and balance according to how they want the jobs to be. It is still early in the expansion and will need to wait and see the outcome. But no amount of rewards or extras will better the current status quo.

Mustve been one hell of a shower, grats!

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Originally Posted by LaylaTsarra

I don't like to df my tanks and I have them leveled on my main and on an alt. I run with FC and friends. It's just not worth the expectations of the DF community to be worth it for me.

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Although I've had my fair share of horrendous DF groups, well, like everyone! I'd recommend it over most things to improve a players game, ie beyond the expected minimum of playing your role. DF is full of 'flavourful' players where it's literally impossible not to learn how not to do things. Running with FC and Friends too much makes players complacent. Granted we all have our limits :p

I also don't see where people are coming from saying tanks get judged more than other roles for their rotations and mess ups. In hundreds of runs of various content I've never seen ANYONE called out from any role. And that includes floortanking healers and dps and tanks who stand in every aoe.

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Originally Posted by ZemusM

Reading through this thread has confirmed 1 thing for me as a Tank, 99% of you have the mindset that the DF is so toxic that 99% of the runs are not doable which is a complete and total lie. for like every 100 runs I do in the DF MAYBE 1 is bad. You people need to grow up and stop spreading hate on these forums over things that are simply not true in the slightest. I use the DF all the time to quickly get my dailies done on my DK and 99.9% of the time, not 1 word is said in party chat and the run is smooth, it doesn't matter if its slow pulling or mass AoE pulls the runs are fine. Stop telling people this is not the case and grow up. I see DK's crying we are glass cannons for mitigation and content is not doable in PUG's ARE YOU KIDDING ME!? I take barely any dmg at all in PUGS as a DK, Yes, Paladin is the best tank currently but stop spreading lies like the other tanks are unplayable trash. You fear mongers are the problem with this game, not the Duty Finder

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It's true that 99% of runs are doable. If your definition of smooth is completing the dungeon without wipes, then sure, it's smooth. Depends on what you mean by "bad" too (notice the BRD has almost full TP). Yes, all tanks are viable.

For me, the bad experiences stick out like a sore thumb. A few days ago I got Ravana Hard in Trials Roulette. The other healer was pretty much dying to mechanics my FC mate was calling out while I solo healed the thing while all the DPS were taking avoidable damage (specifically the balls). We cleared, but I would not call that a smooth run. I remember when I was a noob and my healer friend was streaming me ARF to show me what end game pulls are like. The DPS were fairly bad in terms of DPS and he was pretty much carrying the run on WHM.

I'm also somewhat colored by what I've seen in The Balance Discord. I've seen how bad DPS can be in DF.

What I will say is that runs are far far smoother when I do them with my FC.

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Originally Posted by YitharV2

For me, the bad experiences stick out like a sore thumb. A few days ago I got Ravana Hard in Trials Roulette. The other healer was pretty much dying to mechanics my FC mate was calling out while I solo healed the thing while all the DPS were taking avoidable damage (specifically the balls). We cleared, but I would not call that a smooth run. I remember when I was a noob and my healer friend was streaming me ARF to show me what end game pulls are like. The DPS were fairly bad in terms of DPS and he was pretty much carrying the run on WHM..

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Oh boo hoo it took a few attempts to clear a MAIN SCENARIO primal in the DF because someone was new. 15 Minutes of your life is not hurt at all by this, you cleared it, the person obviously learned the basics of ranvana or got carried and you moved on. If this is the WORST you have to offer in the DF then stop making posts on this thread, that is fine and nothing "Terrible" Of course if your with friends or your FC its smoother, Your friends, your coordinated or use voice, the DF uses much less but no content in this game outside of Extreme battles need major coordination to clear at all, even for a super casual player. This is the problem im talking about, You make it sound like the DF is a terrible method of gameplay that hurts FFXIV and that is NOT the case.