Has the problem with WHM in raids fixed in SB?

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

>big heals
>not raid relevant

What the hell you smoking?

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>Big heals
>AST heals for more than us in everything but Benediction and Cure III, the latter of which is hardly ever needed.

Hmm.

Slightly off topic, but I think a lot of people are mistaking MORE oGCDs for stronger oGCDs, which then leads to people saying WHM has stronger heals, when in reality it just has MORE heals.
That's not exactly a bad thing, but why pretend that WHM is this healing monster that no one can match?

Now to actually respond xD

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

I have to flat out disagree with you here. Don't forget AST can still extend lucid dreaming. And while lightspeed's 25% MP reduction might seem paltry compared to Thin Air, it also lasts a GCD longer and, with AST's reduced MP costs, adds up pretty nicely.

I would say the skill floor for AST MP management feels a little higher. You have to place ES in the right spot 10s in advance. Lord/Lady adds even more micromangement to the card system. You need to hold CU for about 2 seconds without accidentally even so much as right click swinging the camera. But if you are using AST's full toolkit, it's power is no joke and can get through any current content, including several raises, without using a single card draw on Ewer for MP.

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Lightspeed is a 10s, so you'd get five GCDs off within it's time frame since they're front loaded.

Thin Air is a 12s duration so you'll also likely get off four GCDs with it unless you have really high spell speed due to server delay. Presence of Mind will allow you to get an additional GCD out within that time frame, potentially two as your GCD is below 2s at that point.

Even without PoM, Thin Air nets you 4 GCDs within a two minute period. Lightspeed gives you 5 GCDs within a two and a half minute period. Within a ten minute period that means:
20 GCDs of Thin Air
20 GCDs of Lightspeed

So they'd net the same overall GCDs within the same period of time and of course Thin Air's 100% discount beats Lightspeeds 25% reduction. Take into account the MP savings from Lightspeed are also slightly mitigated by the fact that their heal kit is cheaper overall so the net MP savings is less than Thin Air. Thin Air is a bit more flexible in the sense it affects the entire WHM kit while its best to save Lightspeed for healing spells but gives the AST a lot of maneuverability. Thin Air also gives WHM incredible reach when dealing with wipe Recovery since you can feasibly SC one Raise and hard cast the second - affording a net savings of 7,200MP versus AST's 1,800MP.

Extended Lucid Dreams is still a thing like you said. Currently, based on my quick screenshots Lucid Dreams offers 960MP/tick. Multiply that by four ticks for CO and you gain 3,840MP back over WHM which is a nice fair sum which I think can be mitigated quite easily by the four GCDs from WHM in heavy healing situations. I'd even argue Thin Air would surpass both extended Lucid Dreams and Lightspeed in the right scenarios since four GCDs of heavy healing is potentially 4,800MP saved (4x Cure II)

While AST's oGCD kit is good and powerful WHM offers flexibility in having more frequent and smaller bursts of healing. Essential Dignity is essentially a better Tetra when played properly and the power of Earthly Star can best Assize in raw power and the overall MP savings would be similar if the WHM spends a GCD to match Earthly Star's raw power if neccessary. CU is better than Asylum biy a smidge though it does lock the AST out for one or two GCDs so AST would need to play catch up later.

This leaves WHM to make use of Plenary Indulgence and Divine Benison in their kit to make up for MP and also the fact they have access to Freecure - something they should make explicit use of often since a lot of things now proc off Cure. This gives WHM the ability to employ more overall smaller heals over the fight that procs into their toolkit while AST has to spend GCDs to make it up in raw healing. Since their GCDs aren't MP free I feel AST's kit will overall expend more MP to generate the same level of healing that WHM can.

AST's MP kit is not weak though, but I would still give that crown to WHM just on the above wall of text.

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Originally Posted by Exiled_Tonberry

Not hating on WHM or trying to spread hate for WHM, whichever you meant.
Simply wanted to discuss a looming problem that they may be facing after SCH is back on it's feet.

Of course, no matter what happens, they'll still be viable. Just not raid relevant, which is my main concern.

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WHM might not be META relevant but they'll most certainly be Raid relevant. And they will offer a fundamentally different playstyle from their other two healer styles that offers their own unique strengths and weaknesses whereas before everything had was just a weakness compared to the AST kit.

I honestly don't think you're hating on WHM, but I honestly feel you need to just wait and see. Making a new thread effectively once every third day to "ask the same question in different words" is just making you seem more like an stubborn player who doesn't listen to others than anything else, sadly :/

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Originally Posted by Exiled_Tonberry

>Big heals
>AST heals for more than us in everything but Benediction and Cure III, the latter of which is hardly ever needed.

Hmm.

Slightly off topic, but I think a lot of people are mistaking MORE oGCDs for stronger oGCDs, which then leads to people saying WHM has stronger heals, when in reality it just has MORE heals.
That's not exactly a bad thing, but why pretend that WHM is this healing monster that no one can match?

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I'm not pretending WHM is a healing monster, but I know that it excels are longevity. AST has more outright raw power but will tire out quicker than WHM would *Points to above wall of text*. If fights are constant slug fests that additional longevity might give your party just enough HP to make it to the finish line.

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Originally Posted by Exiled_Tonberry

Not hating on WHM.

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Just gonna point out you've been hating on WHM for well over a year at least, since I remember seeing your first thread shortly after 3.4...

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

Just gonna point out you've been hating on WHM for well over a year at least, since I remember seeing your first thread shortly after 3.4...

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No, it's not that this particular person "hates on" WHM.

Exiled just constantly creates threads or discussions detailing why they think WHM is in a bad spot or is the martyr of the healer roles while being rather quick to demonize everything about AST. Was having a field day before the expansion when everybody was panicking over how weak WHM was going to be.

Made a thread not too long ago that basically amounts to "don't blame WHMs if SCHs get left out."

Its getting old real fast.

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Originally Posted by Cidel

No, it's not that this particular person "hates on" WHM.

Exiled just constantly creates threads or discussions detailing why they think WHM is in a bad spot or is the martyr of the healer roles while being rather quick to demonize everything about AST. Was having a field day before the expansion when everybody was panicking over how weak WHM was going to be.

Made a thread not too long ago that basically amounts to "don't blame WHMs if SCHs get left out."

Its getting old real fast.

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Agree 100%. I have honestly never seen anyone complain as incessantly as he/she has.

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

Lightspeed is a 10s, so you'd get five GCDs off within it's time frame since they're front loaded.

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Don't forget Celestial Opposition increases this by 10 seconds too. It increases all buffs made you by 10s. So your card buffs, Largesse, Lucid Dreaming, LightSpeed, Aspected Helios.. etc Also AST can give The Ewer to anyone in the party including their self, as a single target or AoE.

https://puu.sh/wEj7i/3f8a19b563.jpg

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

Just gonna point out you've been hating on WHM for well over a year at least, since I remember seeing your first thread shortly after 3.4...

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Again, I'm not hating. I'm just disappointed with how weak it is in comparison to other healers and how it's just not changing at all.

And yeah, I might go overboard in making topics. But they're necessary to get word out to the devs.
I don't mean to be annoying, but I really don't want to sit here for yet another expansion on the bench because SE has no idea what to do with healers anymore.

WHM was not on the bench for an entire expansion. If you were on the bench for all of HW that reflects more on your skill as a WHM than the class itself. It wasn't until 3.4 that people started to prefer AST/SCH.

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Originally Posted by xNewbx

Also AST can give The Ewer to anyone in the party including their self, as a single target or AoE.

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The goal of AST's MP management is to use as few Ewers for MP management as possible because that is the loss of a Royal Road party buff or a possible redraw into Balance/Arrow.

Oh my moggle mog, anyone who cares about it that much needs to go outside, and take a break.

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Originally Posted by xNewbx

Don't forget Celestial Opposition increases this by 10 seconds too. It increases all buffs made you by 10s. So your card buffs, Largesse, Lucid Dreaming, LightSpeed, Aspected Helios.. etc Also AST can give The Ewer to anyone in the party including their self, as a single target or AoE.

https://puu.sh/wEj7i/3f8a19b563.jpg

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The question then becomes, do you need those additional 4 GCDs of instant cast healing at reduced MP? Don't forget that Lightspeed still has a negative towards DPS spells so you'll need to be in an opportunity where you'll be able to use every single GCD with the extended Lightspeed duration effectively or else it becomes a waste. It might become a waste anyway since, in terms of MP efficiency, your CO is better spent when Lucid Dreams is up as it's unlikely (but not impossible) that both Lightspeed and Lucid Dreams buffs would be up at the same time since they're both on different cooldown times. CO can be applied to many things in the AST kit but I wouldn't consider CO + Lightspeed to be one of the common applications since it's much better to use CO to extend and AoE Balance or your own Lucid Dreams.

And as Cerise mentioned above, AST would like to use as few Ewer's as possible. The more Ewer's they use for themselves or their parties, the less Balance / Expanded Balances they're giving to the party. If AST's largest benefit to the raid is the additional DPS they provide, then they're going to be wanting to dig for that as much as they can.

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Originally Posted by Exiled_Tonberry

Again, I'm not hating. I'm just disappointed with how weak it is in comparison to other healers and how it's just not changing at all.

And yeah, I might go overboard in making topics. But they're necessary to get word out to the devs.
I don't mean to be annoying, but I really don't want to sit here for yet another expansion on the bench because SE has no idea what to do with healers anymore.

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The only time where a large number of WHMs had "sat on the bench" was during 3.4 when S-E overbuffed the crap out of AST.

Idk, maybe WHM's healing is potent enough that it could easily solo heal content with little trouble keeping up both HPS and MP wise? :/

I'm not really that well versed in WHM play right now (I am lveling it still) - as of right now I'm quite fond of it in dungeons because it does have quite nice MP management, and (please don't hit me for this) I quite like the lily mechanic! Having reduced cooldowns on OGCD abilities is quite nice, and the more I can have them up the more I can DPS o\

Not gonna say it doesn't have its flaws - I repeat that I do not have it at 70 yet, I don't know how well it performs in 70 content, but I've heard the lvl70 skill leaves much to be desired :/

To be quite honest, I'm starting to think the problem is more AST being overbuffed than either SCH or WHM (not that these jobs shouldn't be tweaked), AST is just too good at the moment lol.

(and yeah, in this game I don't really believe in a pure heal-healer. Maybe in some sort of content where DPS checks were so tight you called in a good WHM to solo heal in order to fill uo last slot as DPS, but other than that I am really, REALLY skeptical of jobs in this game with no other utility :P)

... is it just me who thinks 3.4/3.5 healer classes was the most balanced we've ever been?

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Originally Posted by Spiroglyph

Idk, maybe WHM's healing is potent enough that it could easily solo heal content with little trouble keeping up both HPS and MP wise? :/

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I was hoping that we could see something like this, where WHM's healing was so strong that they could solo heal some content, leaving room for either another DPS or a healer to just DPS pretty much the whole time. IDK if that's gonna be the case, but it would be nice to see.

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Originally Posted by Spiroglyph

To be quite honest, I'm starting to think the problem is more AST being overbuffed than either SCH or WHM (not that these jobs shouldn't be tweaked), AST is just too good at the moment lol.

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You are right on the money here. Outside of some minor tweaks, all the healers would be fine, except they gave AST too much. Reverse the buff to Nocturnal Sect, that would be a good start. Most of SCH's problems could be fixed with numbers adjustments and WHM could just do with some minor utility like Haste.

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

It might become a waste anyway since, in terms of MP efficiency, your CO is better spent when Lucid Dreams is up as it's unlikely (but not impossible) that both Lightspeed and Lucid Dreams buffs would be up at the same time since they're both on different cooldown times.

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Not true. At level 68 you get a trait that if you crit with Benefic I or II, you have a 100% chance to decrease Lightspeed CD by 5 seconds. (Wow WHM has a similar one right? except it's a 20% chance after crit'ing...) All these CD's are on a 2 minute CD except Lightspeed which is 150 seconds.
And anyways, if you want to talk about things not lining up properly, the same exact goes for WHM. I've mained WHM throughout the whole expansion and done almost hundred clears on the EX primals with it, and I can say it's extremely rare for everything to line up.

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Originally Posted by Elamys

I was hoping that we could see something like this, where WHM's healing was so strong that they could solo heal some content, leaving room for either another DPS or a healer to just DPS pretty much the whole time. .

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While that definitely would be nice, it would be pretty broken honestly.
If WHM can just solo heal content, there's no longer going to be a reason to bring anything else, because an extra DPS will always be more preferable than an ASTs cards or a SCHs fairy.

That being said, I really do feel like WHM should be similar to SAM. That is, excessively large heals and DPS to make up for it not bringing utility to the raid.
I mean, SCH is still outdpsing WHM single target and AST is not far behind. For a job that brings nothing to raid other than it's basic duties as a healer, it really should excel greatly in that.

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Originally Posted by xNewbx

Not true. At level 68 you get a trait that if you crit with Benefic I or II, you have a 100% chance to decrease Lightspeed CD by 5 seconds. (Wow WHM has a similar one right? except it's a 20% chance after crit'ing...) All these CD's are on a 2 minute CD except Lightspeed which is 150 seconds.
And anyways, if you want to talk about things not lining up properly, the same exact goes for WHM. I've mained WHM throughout the whole expansion and done almost hundred clears on the EX primals with it, and I can say it's extremely rare for everything to line up.

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For WHM, the two major CDs you'd like to combo together on the WHM kit would be Thin Air and Presence of Mind and in some cases it's more beneficial to use them separately depending on the fight - so it's not necessary to have your CDs line up for optimized usage. I could see the argument to put Swiftcast into Thin Air to get a 5th GCD without any server issues but otherwise most WHM CDs can operate independently without hampering their effectiveness.

I will admit I forgot about the Hyper Lightspeed trait so comboing Lucid Dreams + Lightspeed + Celestial Opposition is certainly much more plausible. I still stand by the statement though if you had a choice of tools to use for MP efficiency, you should focus more on Lucid Dreams than Lightspeed. Though not everything in the AST kit runs off two minutes. Collective Unconsciousness, Synastry, and Largesse all are 90s CDs and holding onto them to combo with Celestial Opposition will lead to overall less uptime on the buffs / HoTs provided.

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Originally Posted by Exiled_Tonberry

I mean, SCH is still outdpsing WHM single target and AST is not far behind.

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WHM currently has the highest parses for both Susano and Lakshmi. Lakshmi by quite a margin. Do your research before you claim anything.

If FFlogs goes through its probable change, that being that leaderboards will be ranked by separating dps gained through balance, then the majority of people's reasons to bring AST is gone as they can't get balance fed their way to the top. The only people still gunning for them would be those that are running for speed killing which is a small minority compared to those that love having an AST for higher parses.

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Originally Posted by Exiled_Tonberry

I mean, SCH is still outdpsing WHM single target and AST is not far behind. For a job that brings nothing to raid other than it's basic duties as a healer, it really should excel greatly in that.

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WHM is a bit ahead of the SCH, both of them being a good distance ahead of AST atm.

Personnaly, I switch to WHM for the upcoming raid tier.

Let's be honest however : I still think the lilies system sucks (as well as plenary indulgence).

But the reason I made this choice was because I think WHM has now an awesome recovery ability thanks to his great pool of mana, Assize to 60s, Benediction to 3min, Divine Benision as an insta shield for tank buster.

I have now have no fear to cast some Cure II because I know it won't hurt my mana while I casted more Cure before to have the free cure II proc.
Same goes for aoe healing and espically medica ii that is powerful but cost a lot of mana.

So, don't get me wrong, I'm not saying WHM is fine right now, but there are some changes they made that I really like and make me really confortable to play it.

The fact that I can have 2 free raises and others strong healing stuff sounds good for me during learning times.

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Originally Posted by Kabzy

WHM currently has the highest parses for both Susano and Lakshmi. Lakshmi by quite a margin. Do your research before you claim anything.

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Not sure where you're reading this, but highest parse for WHM is less than 100 from SCHs top parse, and 200 above SCH in Lakshmi. This is not considering Balance uptime.
Of course, SCH also brings utility to the raid that can easily make up that difference.

So not sure where you're getting this huge gap in DPS power from. Heck, Monk was around this much stronger to DRG in 3.0, and guess what happened to them?

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Originally Posted by Exiled_Tonberry

Not sure where you're reading this, but highest parse for WHM is less than 100 from SCHs top parse, and 200 above SCH in Lakshmi. This is not considering Balance uptime.
Of course, SCH also brings utility to the raid that can easily make up that difference.

So not sure where you're getting this huge gap in DPS power from. Heck, Monk was around this much stronger to DRG in 3.0, and guess what happened to them?

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But here I thought the AST putting the balance on one person throughout a fight was supposed to represent the average dps that class could do?...

The issue with the SCH keeping up in DPS is the fact they offer the damage utility, whereas the WHM does not. And that extra crit buff feels amazing. Honestly if the WHM did a bit more damage, I think it'd be a very good balance between the healers.

WHM offering high, consistent damage.
SCH slightly lower, but a great crit buff.
AST the lowest personal DPS but has a chance to offer the most damage utility.

I personally think an RNG class should offer more if the cards play in their favor. As long as it's not extremely far over. Because, it's rng.

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Originally Posted by Exiled_Tonberry

Monk was around this much stronger to DRG in 3.0, and guess what happened to them?

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The situation with monk was as much linked with the drop in popularity of PLDs throughout Midas and Creator as it was any failings with the job itself. Once DRK MTs became the standard, Dragon Kick aka Monk's utility lost the value it once had.

Healers don't really synergise with specific jobs currently, so it's not nearly as severe a situation as Mnks were in.