Red Mages Needs a Bit More Complexity

I suppose I can throw this in, because I haven't seen it anywhere... if you tilt your mana expenditure one way or the other (we'll say black) the mana you gain of the lesser color is halved. It's expenditure is also halved, so long as you maintain this shift in color.

Using this information you could execute your fully enchanted melee combo at 52/97 for example. Or 26/49 if using Manafication. I tried encorporating this knowledge into a rotation, and due to the random nature of our procs did not have luck. I did however recover from an accidental swing and gained dps from this by entering my melee combo earlier than I otherwise would have. its not a grand find, but it can come in handy in rare situations you find yourself unbalancing yourself. (You could do it intentionally and push yourselves to the proper level by using acceleration and or swift cast as well obviously

Half of these suggestions are really not well thought out.

Red Mage is fine as it is but its numbers are too high for what it brings to an encounter. The burst of the class is high and frequent (which is valuable for fights with a high number of phase transitions), it isn't inherently punishing and the fights don't punish you much due to lack of buff management and high mobility to deal with mechanics. The class is legit just good fun and I'd like it to stay that way. May others would most likely agree with me due to the overwhelming majority finding RDM really fun to play.

It doesn't need to be some overly complex, melee caster with cleric stance-sword mechanics. 32% of your gcds during an encounter require you to be melee or chain off of a melee combo. 25% of your gcds are weapons skills. That's 25% more than any other caster; RDM is currently assigned in this "ranged caster" role. What the job is doing is fine.

Tune the numbers for what the job is based on the adaptability of its kit and raise the damage of BLM and SMN. RDM should be the weakest caster in personal DPS at the highest level of play.

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Originally Posted by Kacho_Nacho

Please no.

As an older adult with health challenges I love the fact that there are less complex jobs in the game. Give me my red mage, white mage, and paladin. You can play with the more complex jobs all you want.

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Amen. As someone with nerve damage in my wrist from a car accident, I tend to prefer classes that don't play like a concert piano recital.

If people want complex classes with hundreds of actions per minute then play one. There is no shortage of them. I just wish people would stop asking for nonsense changes for the classes that are a little more relaxed in their mechanics and rotations.

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Originally Posted by NoxLumina

I guess I should go RDM too! No effort required, no punishment like Aetherflow and the bosses can't laugh into my face as they currently do when I wanna get a full Fire rotation through.
And sick damage on top of that!
Why be BLM or SMN at all right now, El oh El.

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I think you will find your issues are far more with how ridiculously punishing SMN is to play right now than anything to do with RDMs in general.

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Originally Posted by Amulrei

Amen. As someone with nerve damage in my wrist from a car accident, I tend to prefer classes that don't play like a concert piano recital.

If people want complex classes with hundreds of actions per minute then play one. There is no shortage of them. I just wish people would stop asking for nonsense changes for the classes that are a little more relaxed in their mechanics and rotations.

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That is perfectly fine, but I feel the damage output should also reflect it.

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Originally Posted by Frowny

That is perfectly fine, but I feel the damage output should also reflect it.

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that's fine with me, so long as it doesn't make my Job absolutely unwanted in all content.

I'm here for the playstyle in this case, not necessarily the numbers.

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Originally Posted by Frowny

That is perfectly fine, but I feel the damage output should also reflect it.

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I totally disagree here. Complexity isn't a stat. We shouldn't start trying to decide how much a job needs to be nerfed because you believe it is simpler than your job. The point of balancing is to make the jobs as close together as possible, with adjustments for group utility perhaps. Some silly epeen requirement that one job do less than another because of apparently less difficulty is just silly. Do you define the percent nerf based on button presses? People should play the style that they find fun, not be funneled into classes because they do more dps due to supposed complexity, much of which is subjective.

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Originally Posted by VorpalSpork

I totally disagree here. Complexity isn't a stat. We shouldn't start trying to decide how much a job needs to be nerfed because you believe it is simpler than your job. The point of balancing is to make the jobs as close together as possible, with adjustments for group utility perhaps. Some silly epeen requirement that one job do less than another because of apparently less difficulty is just silly. Do you define the percent nerf based on button presses? People should play the style that they find fun, not be funneled into classes because they do more dps due to supposed complexity, much of which is subjective.

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Amazingly well said.

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Originally Posted by VorpalSpork

Complexity isn't a stat. We shouldn't start trying to decide how much a job needs to be nerfed because you believe it is simpler than your job. The point of balancing is to make the jobs as close together as possible, with adjustments for group utility perhaps. Some silly epeen requirement that one job do less than another because of apparently less difficulty is just silly. Do you define the percent nerf based on button presses? People should play the style that they find fun, not be funneled into classes because they do more dps due to supposed complexity, much of which is subjective.

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I agree with this 100%. The best thing one can do from a design perspective is make classes that cater to various skill/dexterity levels. Yes, making a class simpler to play than others runs the risk of inflating the ranks of said class (9-6-9 prot paladins in WoW come to mind), but it does provide something for everyone. I think we stand to gain more from that approach than to make every DPS class an experience where the player fights his/her class' mechanics instead of the boss.

They could have added some kind of use for having imbalanced gauge.

When I first saw the job trailer with the skills for this job I was SO worried that I wouldn't be able to understand their rotation and priority system and the balancing of mana. But man is it a simple job to play. Is that a bad thing? IDK. It still super fun, but I do agree that some complexity would be nice and maybe make it even funner. I'd like a way to add more sword attacks into the magic rotations, personally.

If people find it fun, It's ok.

The major complain I have is the high DPS output with minimum effort, As long you always dualcast Aero/thunder. You will beat a BLM in a raid fight. High, mobility, high utility and high dps.

Also they have a lot of same skills with different skins on it. I know the core mechanic is for YOU to balance white and black mana but idk....

I love these comments okay, let's do this.

High DPS: Only if you don't utilize 2/3rds of the utility regularly that we get criticized for (Vercure and Verraise). Otherwise you run low on mana (yes you can lucid dreaming i know, but emergencies aren't called emergencies because they happen precisely when you want them to) and can't cast as often, meaning your dps goes away, plus you lose dps when you aren't casting a damage spell since we don't have DoTs and Vercure is weak when not dualcasted.

High Utility: Sort of covered in the DPS paragraph, but still we have a decent buff that averages to a 6% damage boost for 20 seconds for a section of the raid, not the whole raid, again it's only absolutely fantastic if you're in a group that believes themselves at the cutting edge of progression and absolutely needs a SAM/NIN/RDM/BRD comp and nothing else ever.

High Mobility: We're very mobile, if dualcast procs at precisely the same time as every single mechanic, which is rare. Otherwise, you'd have to hold dualcast until the mechanic actually happens (lowers DPS).

All of the facets of RDM are a balancing act, it's something you shift into, if you want your amazing DPS, you'd better be ready not to Cure or Raise, if you want mobility you better be prepared to stagger your damage.

Would be interesting to have at least one DoT to maintain while going through the priority rotation. Maybe it could be tied to Verstone/fire procs.

Verpoison (terrible name) | Spell | 2s cast | 2.5s recast

Deals unaspected damage with a potency of 80
Additional Effect: Unaspected damage over time
Potency: 30
Duration: 27s
Verfire Ready Additional Effect: Increases Black Mana by 6
Verstone Ready Additional Effect: Increases White Mana by 6
Can only be executed while Verfire Ready or Verstone Ready is active

It requires a "Ver-spell Ready" proc to cast and grants mana for the proc consumed. If both procs are active, then it consumes both and grants mana for both.

Everyone's talking about Red Mage being OP and Easy, but I'm sure not seeing a ton of them in endgame content right now, so what's it matter?

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Originally Posted by Cyrocco

Everyone's talking about Red Mage being OP and Easy, but I'm sure not seeing a ton of them in endgame content right now, so what's it matter?

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Huh?
They're everywhere. RDM+BRD+NIN seems to be the dps core right now.
Last slot is usually MNK or SAM.
Sure, every now and then a truly dedicated SMN/MCH will take a RDM's spot, but they tend to both perform worse and be far less common.
(In fact, I see more 3xMelee+RDM than I see 3xMelee+BRD/MCH, so that's saying something)

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Originally Posted by Cyrocco

Everyone's talking about Red Mage being OP and Easy, but I'm sure not seeing a ton of them in endgame content right now, so what's it matter?

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Almost every single PF I've seen or been in has had a Red Mage that isn't me in it.

Just because there's like 10 Samurai for each Red Mage doesn't we aren't everywhere.

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Originally Posted by Oscura

/snip

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Really? I've seen the occasional RDM. But they're no more common than the flood of ASTs. Also, thank you for bring up Samurai, Samurai offers more DPS than any other job, is easily crushing RDM in terms of population, yet people seem to be fine.

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Originally Posted by Galvuu

/snip

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Are you talking about random PF matches, where of course RDMs are going to be common because 1.) New Job, 2.) New DPS Job, and 3.) Staplemark Job, or Statics that are going with a 3-melee 1-RDM combo on purpose?

Basically the only reason I'm posting is because RDM is fine, BLM has always been a hardcaster, nothing new there, everyone knew what was coming. No idea what's going on with SMN. But if people really want RDM more complex and nerfed, making DPS far less friendly to newcomers, I'll go back to healing and laugh at all of you. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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Originally Posted by Cyrocco

Really? I've seen the occasional RDM. But they're no more common than the flood of ASTs. Also, thank you for bring up Samurai, Samurai offers more DPS than any other job, is easily crushing RDM in terms of population, yet people seem to be fine.

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"People seem to be fine."
Have you just conveniently ignored the entire thread dedicated around SAM being too strong that's over 40 pages for this long?
Or the fact that one of the most heated debates in the easiest/hardest SB DPS thread is about Samurai?

Both Red Mage and Samurai are subject to criticism.

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Originally Posted by Cyrocco

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Nope, I was talking about the top 50 fastest Susano and Lak EX kills.
Top 10 has RDM in all, I believe (Susan has for sure, Lak there might be one without, if memory serves me correctly).
You can check for yourself here:
https://www.fflogs.com/rankings/15#boss=1037
https://www.fflogs.com/rankings/15#boss=1036

Plus, do mind that I said the most common core is RDM+BRD+NIN+MNK/SAM, not triple melee (less common).

Also, the AST example has no validity, as AST only has two other jobs to compete it and it's a clear favourite. It'll always be AST+something.
This is absolutely not true for dps.

(Why would I be talking about "random PF parties" when the subject was clearly serious endgame progression >.>)

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Originally Posted by Galvuu

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Originally Posted by Oscura

/snip

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Originally Posted by Cyrocco

Basically the only reason I'm posting is because RDM is fine, BLM has always been a hardcaster, nothing new there, everyone knew what was coming. No idea what's going on with SMN. But if people really want RDM more complex and nerfed, making DPS far less friendly to newcomers, I'll go back to healing and laugh at all of you. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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/10char Cause quotes don't count.

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Originally Posted by Cyrocco

/10char Cause quotes don't count.

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I never said I wanted RDM to be more complex or nerfed. Drop your sarcastic rhetoric and get over yourself.

Go back to healer, I really don't care. I will never party with you. I don't even know who you are. It factually makes no difference and has zero influence on my life.

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Originally Posted by VorpalSpork

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On the same token, RDM has a damn good damage up buff and a res/cure if needed. When a class has their cake and can eat it too, it skews balance as people natively want easier if it is just as rewarding, if not more so, than complex.

RDM falls into a weird spot of not as complex and has utility, but can easily pull absolutely insane numbers. Yet the team's stance (well, on paper) is that utility means less personal DPS.

My only issue is being exactly matched on Black/White mana has no advantages. Verflare/Verholy only work right if you have an imbalance of even 1 mana. It'd be nice if being exactly equaled out maintained the 100% proc, or even gave a 60% proc instead of 30%. But that's just my $0.02 I love this job.

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

My only issue is being exactly matched on Black/White mana has no advantages. Verflare/Verholy only work right if you have an imbalance of even 1 mana. It'd be nice if being exactly equaled out maintained the 100% proc, or even gave a 60% proc instead of 30%. But that's just my $0.02 I love this job.

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Well the reason it has no advantages is actually one of the things that gives the job more 'complexity'. You should be trying to stay just off balance in order to land the Verflare/holy to get the 100% buff.

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

My only issue is being exactly matched on Black/White mana has no advantages. Verflare/Verholy only work right if you have an imbalance of even 1 mana. It'd be nice if being exactly equaled out maintained the 100% proc, or even gave a 60% proc instead of 30%. But that's just my $0.02 I love this job.

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It helps to sway your bw mana balance before you use your finishers. This will allow you to maintain your ~30 bw spread.

Personally I like RED as it is :/ Why ?
Because it's an easy DPS to play with, especially when you are not used to DPS. If you want more complex DPS they are others that are waaaaaaaaayyyyyy more complicated.
I think it's a good thing to have and easy DPS, pretty much like WHM is the easier healer to play with, it can help people "discover" their job as DPS / heal etc and, once they want more complexity they can switch to another class

RDM could do with having either its floor or its ceiling lowered. A job that is considerably more forgiving than SMN and BLM has no business being ahead on output.

If the job is intended as the "easy" caster then there should be an incentive to play the "harder" ones.

I think that RDM does not need more complexity, instead I believe that what is needed is punishment for mistakes.

There are only 2 mistakes a RDM can make now that punish them hard, both of which are easily avoidable:

1-letting one of your manas rise much higher than the other;
2-starting your melee combo without enough mana to finish it.

Literally everything else barelly punishes you, unless you repeat those minor mistakes many times. So I've thought about a nice little thing that would add the necessary punishment:

Verflare/holy no longer generate mana, instead they give a X secs buff that increase the damage dealt by your black/white mana generating spells by Y%. This way you are punished by letting your manas even when starting your melee combo, and during the timespam of the verflare/holy buff you would want to cast as many black/white mana generating spells as possible BUT if you go too greed you end up with unbalaced mana, punishing you.

What this change proposes is playing on the edge of the balance of your mana gauge, and I believe it would be a nice little thing to add some depth to the class without making it too complicated or too punishing.

Id like to see some more complexity added to this job too. At first with the announcement i thought it was going to be a job that had more melee interactions and rotations, and that sounded really fun with the RDM as a combination of black and white magic.

But as i am playing it now the dps chain mechanisms just feels half assed and i dont even need to essentially focus. The input of this job should equal to its output, but instead rdm is low ceiling & high output. Good job SE!

Don't expect any change until 5.0
And no, no DoTs. Enough of everyjob having all the same tools.


What I'd like to see however in 5.0 is a trait that reduce the "recast time" upon using VerThunder and VerWind.
I absolutely hate that 2.4sec where we stand like retard waiting for the GCD to go off. It just breaks the flow.

It doesnt have to be a triat too, it could simply be a new rank to follow the "rank up" philosophy since a few spell always rank up every xpac. (However I hope they stop at IV for the BLM)

VerThunder-Aero II: Potency 360, 5sec cast, recast:1sec

RDM is simple, and that's why it's so attractive. It's hard to screw up, and isn't punishing when you fail. On top of everything else, they have utility and mobility. It's the optimal dps job for people who want to dps and be useful, but can't handle the complexities of other jobs as well.

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Originally Posted by Sylvain

Don't expect any change until 5.0
And no, no DoTs. Enough of everyjob having all the same tools.


What I'd like to see however in 5.0 is a trait that reduce the "recast time" upon using VerThunder and VerWind.
I absolutely hate that 2.4sec where we stand like retard waiting for the GCD to go off. It just breaks the flow.

It doesnt have to be a triat too, it could simply be a new rank to follow the "rank up" philosophy since a few spell always rank up every xpac. (However I hope they stop at IV for the BLM)

VerThunder-Aero II: Potency 360, 5sec cast, recast:1sec

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I'd enjoy that. I can see either that coming (but 1.5 seconds like the melee combo), or Verblizzard and Verwater as OGCDs.

If you want depth, how about something that just actually gives Black and White mana, or their spells, different inherent effects or mechanics, rather than leaving them as nominal categories only?