[SPOILERS] Revelations from Patch 4.01

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Originally Posted by Jonnycbad

Something to note: Exdeath doesn't die the same as O1-O3. He gets sucked into the void. That hints towards him being the ACTUAL Exdeath and not a simulacrum like the others. Means we might see Neo Exdeath later.

Also how does this tie in with WoD, since Cloud of Darkness is supposed to be the personification of the Void itself. The Rift from FF5 was just a fancy name for the Void, wasn't it?

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In FF5, "the Void" was something created/summoned by Enuo in ancient times and was sealed away in the Interdimensional Rift.

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Originally Posted by PArcher

V1-V4 normal are all easy for raiders. Very easy.

Its entirely conceivable that the Savage bosses will have 2-5 times more HP (and hit at least twice as hard) as the Normal versions, as well as an extra phase or two

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V4 is still a 10 minute fight for most groups, for Savage if they kept his HP the same, then Neo would need to have less HP I would think.

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Originally Posted by Jonnycbad

V4 is still a 10 minute fight for most groups, for Savage if they kept his HP the same, then Neo would need to have less HP I would think.

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Remember that A11 had an extra phase after the pyrettic phase in Savage. Definitely had more HP too.

And that was a *long* fight in the DF.

Savage isn't meant for 1500dps DPS, it's meant for 3k+ dps (and that's still on the low side for raiders, with raid tanks pushing 3k or more with str acc right now)

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Originally Posted by Jonnycbad

Also how does this tie in with WoD, since Cloud of Darkness is supposed to be the personification of the Void itself. The Rift from FF5 was just a fancy name for the Void, wasn't it?

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qE0R3Grgj5g

At the very least it does seem like the Void is similar for them. As well I don't believe the XIV version of CoD is the "personifitcation" of the void, isn't she implied to be one of the WoL from the 13th shard that went mad with power due to auracite and primal energy?

On the multiverse theory here: Exdeath here is not the same as V Exdeath lore wise, that part is still seperate. Whether its Omega itself being one of the ones seen in V or because Exdeath is a fictional character here matters not, XIV Exdeath is a recreation by Omega. Same with any other boss for now. Its fanservice plain and simple (and I like it so much.) One thing I would like to point out is that in the GBA remake of V the bonus dungeon that contained Enuo also contained Neo Shinryu and a room with multiple copies of Omega as well as Omega MK II. I could actually see Omega's plan to get us to go full hero in his tests to "backfire" next raid tier...and then the raid tier after has Omega MK II arrive.

For something I don't think I saw anyone talk about here but I do find interesting: We can't understand Alpha. Everything else on Hydaelyn, including the Ascians, we can understand because of the Echo. Alpha however shows that this power of understanding is limited only to those bearing "Hydaelyn's soul". Now unless we end up facing even more aliens in the actual MSQ it probably won't matter but it is something to think about. Also means Middy and atleast his first brood could probably have secret conversations that we can't understand if he wanted, unless part of his pact with Hydaelyn was making his original language understandable by the Echo.

Oh and for anyone wondering Haukke Manor HM's final boss hasn't gotten a name change. Yet at least. Though given that she was apparently a fictional character yet at the same time a powerful succubus from another shard could actually work in the lore.

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Originally Posted by Yasuhiro

It's literally

Exdeath

same character, same personality, it's him from Final Fantasy V
Now can people stop memeing? Square went back on their word that FFXIV is its own thing and void or not a character from a FF game that's not part a arguably non canon event showed up.

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I don't think this is true. The characters we fight are just copies of the original created by omega. At least that's how I'm understanding it. It's using the information it has gathered from legends and historical documents and creating copies based on that information. It's not as if omega has transported that actual character from another dimension. This is evidenced by the fact that Omega can create copies of even fictional characters. If it was actually transporting a physical being, then it would be impossible to manifest a fictional character.

It's a fun concept because it means that literally any character or monster from past Final Fantasy, or even entirely original characters are fair game to show up as enemies in the omega series. I look forward to seeing what the rest of the raid holds for us. :) Personally I'm hoping for some old FFXI villains to show up. A fight against our fallen Scion allies would be cool as well. It's fun to think of the possibilities, the sky really is the limit and kudos to SE for making the lore for this.

While it's easy to assume that, due to Omega's near omnipotence, it is capable of dimension hopping and that's where it got the ideas for Halicarnassus and Exdeath from (literally from visiting V's world)... that remains unknown. According to Midgardsormr, it (like he) is "not of this star," meaning at the very least Omega is extraterrestrial. Whether or not it's extradimensional remains to be seen; until we know for sure it is, I would argue erring on the side of caution and going with what we know: that Halicarnassus and Exdeath are based on folktales on Hydaelyn, nothing more.

Omega states that its goal is to determine what allows us to overcome statistical disadvantages, then incorporate that into its evolution. As I argued before, this is likely a heart / soul, which is not something that can be obtained by simply desiring it or following protocol. It's a common theme with mechanical lifeforms: "What constitutes a soul? Can machines and other artificial lifeforms have souls?" The answer: often, but Omega is unlikely to grow one by following protocols to evolve. (Typically it requires going beyond mere programming, and again, despite Omega's near omnipotence all it's doing is following that programming.)

As for why we can't understand Alpha... well, we've never been able to understand beasts. That's Krile's shtick. More to the point and in regards to the whole soul business, I'd argue that Alpha presently lacks a soul for us to communicate with. He is, after all, nothing more than a cartoon chocobo created by Omega to lure us into its testing process. If we do gain the ability to speak with him using the Echo, that just proves Omega's creations can grow souls and move beyond their designated purpose. (Making Alpha the perfect counterpart to Omega: one weak and helpless, but possessing the one thing the nigh-omnipotent other cannot obtain.)

... mostly hypotheticals. Mostly. Sorry if I ruin the fun for everyone.

I wouldn't exactly call Alpha a beast. It very clearly understands what we are saying and is trying to communicate with us, but only Middy can actually understand it. Which if we go by that means Middy can also understand all beasts like Krile. That said the point about its lack of soul stands and thus we might be able to communicate with Alpha ourselves sometime later.

Middy suggests that Alpha has a soul, and he presumably gained plenty of knowledge about Omega's creations in the "conflict across eons and stars" between them.

http://i.imgur.com/IQELRZM.png

I have to wonder if Midgardsormr will be incriminated somehow by Omega. Did Midgardsormr serve Hydaelyn as a means of atonement, perhaps? Given that very few aspects of this game's lore are black or white combined with the general vagueness and refusal of Midgardsormr to reveal key information I can't help but feel that there's much more to the conflict between them.

Throwing in some leftovers from a deeper reading (including each client language).

I haven't really organized my thoughts on any of it just yet, though, lol.

The journal specifies that Omega's rift is between the dimensions.
As dimensions beyond the fourteen (and the aetherial sea) remain speculative, Occam says (for now) that it is in a similar position as the Chrysalis: between Source/Shard/Sea. In Japanese, the same kanji are used when referring to the "pocket dimensions" where the Ascians reside and where Louisoix tossed the Legacies.

Halicarnassus and the Dimension Castle are from a novel, where she was defeated by a band of young heroes. Nero chides Cid for thinking he's too good for cheap entertainment and explains that the author claimed the novel was based on historical events from the Fourth Astral Era, but - that era being a dark, forgotten age - nothing ever surfaced that corroborated his claims and now most regard the book as pure fiction. (Then again, the same was true of Allag until Coinach.)

Exdeath is similar to Halicarnassus, but ostensibly from a different story. He was said to wield the power of the void, which Nero assumed was a metaphor when he read the story but assumes will be taken literally by Omega. He is disconcertingly interested in what Exdeath's powers might accomplish, knowing that void is said to undo the laws of reality and lead to chaos (recall that Lahabrea once threatened such a thing if Hydaelyn remained unchecked).

Nero also muses outloud that he has a very wild imagination, which is conceptually worrying in a comedic way. Silly though the idea is, Nero could conceivably Stay Puft Marshmallow Man us in later turns if Omega chooses to browse his imaginings, somehow.

Midgardsormr on Omega
"We met in other skies, in other times." / "from a distant star" / "from time eternal and distance infinite"
Fashioned by an "advanced civilization" on a "distant planet" whose heights our world has yet to reach.
Access to "many thousands of years of history" from "all of the mirror worlds"
Does not draw distinctions between concepts based on whether they existed in reality or in imagination.

Midgie isn't willing to discuss particulars at the moment, but it seems like he might on his own terms (Please look forward to Patch 4.4).

An Aside: Allag had interstellar tech ... but for what? Maybe some are still out there. Maybe they went in search of whatever made Omega.

Midgardsormr is from a "time before time". Is this pre-division of the Source? Could Omega be from this far back, as well? It seems unlikely, seeing as civilizations are usually mortal things and we've been lead to believe Hydaelyn made those later. There's also the possibility that Omega made Midgardsormr in the first place, and lost, and that's why they've been pursuing each other ... but that ... that is a big house of cards I can't make structurally sound at all, just yet.

Farther Aside: Just how much of our cosmos was copied into the mirror worlds, anyway? Does the entire universe exist in multiple dimensions?

Further Questions from a Closer Inspection
Why does the Echo fail on this chocobo? The easiest assumption would be that because Omega is without soul, so must be its creations - life in biological terms alone. Yet Midgardsormr refers to its soul in EN, and calls it pseudo-life in JP. It's not like we can read the minds of regular chocobos anyway, however.

Does Omega's focus on aether prove that it's limited it to Hydaelyn's cosmos? Aether is unique to XIV, not confirmed to be identical to or synonymous with, only similar to, other franchise mediums (such as mako or mist). ("But Y'shtola uses aether to cast magicks! She can cast magicks in Dissidia can't she?" ... Hrrrm.)

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Originally Posted by Cilia

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I believe the reason why the Echo cannot be used on Alpha is maybe because he is a abnormal existence created from data by Omega with the personality being based on what it learned a "chocobo" is like from data it gathered.

We know so far the WoL is not the first Warrior of Light it has seen but since the player WoL is the most recent one thus he has chosen the Player WoL to be the test subject. Though it is a bit perplexing why it would choose now to study the Warrior of Light when it had generations of this data even before Shinryu appeared all the way back from other planets before it ended up in Eorzea with Midgar.

Though if anything I still get this feeling the Final Omega Raid may actually be Chaos FF1 since even in FF14 the legend of FF1 WoL and Chaos is considered the biggest tale that inspires many.

And now I'm thinking about Nero wondering aloud what would happen if we fought Shinryu when it wasn't under Zenos's control, leading to Omega creating Neo-Shinryu. Thanks Moose, now I will probably be dissapoint! /jk

On Aether, if Omega is actually from another FF universe instead of being from another XIV planet/shard/whatever then Aether could just be close enough to things like Mist and other things similar to such.

I think the fallen 13th shard could be Final Fantasy 13 "Lighting Returns" because the story behind that game is to save as many people as possible before the world is completely consumed by the darkness. And I think the reason the Warriors of Darkness's world is "consumed by light" is in reference to Final Fantasy 1, because once you beat the came and conquer the darkness the game ends.and so does their world.

Well I mean... this is the Dissidia raid, right? Obviously the final boss is gonna be Feral Chaos backed up by Shinryu Verus. Can't turn out any other way. He'll go into EX Mode on Savage.

/sarcasm

A-anyway, the other language versions don't really... change my stance? Still feels pretty clear.

Omega, a soulless automaton, seeks to understand what gives us the strength to overcome seemingly impossible odds by throwing increasingly powerful foes at us (note: it already considered the Delta subjects statistically superior). That something is will, heart, soul, self-determination, etc., concepts it cannot grasp because it does not (or cannot) act in ways contrary to its programming. However its creation, Alpha, will develop a soul... and probably sacrifice himself for us, since that tends to be how things go in XIV. As a result of this extremely illogical situation Omega will go ballistic and force us to defeat it or shut down out of sheer inability to comprehend; Omega may develop a soul, but will either be malevolent or be so heavily damaged in our battle it needs to shut down again.

I'm callin' it!

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Originally Posted by Theodric

I have to wonder if Midgardsormr will be incriminated somehow by Omega. Did Midgardsormr serve Hydaelyn as a means of atonement, perhaps? Given that very few aspects of this game's lore are black or white combined with the general vagueness and refusal of Midgardsormr to reveal key information I can't help but feel that there's much more to the conflict between them.

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Only you could try to incriminate the shady but ultimately benevolent dragon against the soulless machine that threatens us with genocide for its own betterment. Only you.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

Well I mean... this is the Dissidia raid, right? Obviously the final boss is gonna be Feral Chaos backed up by Shinryu Verus. Can't turn out any other way. He'll go into EX Mode on Savage.

/sarcasm

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I say Chaos as the final boss for Omega Raid because Chaos seems to be the most logical choice if Omega continues to take "legends" and make them into our challenge in Omega Raid if he has no plans to fight the WoL himself but only remain on the side gathering data.

Even in FF14 world the story of FF1 WoL and Chaos is a story told for generations that no one can compare the defeat of Chaos to any other Hero story but a pure miracle. Something that would fit into what omega is trying to understand and would be the most ideal test Simulation for his goals.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

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I'm not sure I follow.

For starters, it was mere speculation. We do not have the full picture after all. The game - and franchise as a whole - also has a track record of creating very nuanced characters and situations that are far from black or white. I remember people posting theories that the Garleans and Ascians were more nuanced than people gave them credit for only to find themselves shunned and ridiculed for it. Then it turned out that their speculation was correct - but it didn't fit the narrative quite a few vocal posters here try to push so there's only a reluctant acceptance of the shades of grey that exist.

Could Omega be irredeemable? Possibly. As it stands, we don't know enough to say for certain. One can certainly make the argument that it is implied but then we've also been led to believe that other beings in the setting are completely irredeemable only to later find out that, whilst flawed, they had noble if misguided goals. Now whether this applies to Omega remains to be seen. It might or might not.

As an aside, though, there's a handful of people who post here regularly and a bunch of people who might post once or twice in passing. With that in mind I don't see a need for snarky quips just because a particular theory doesn't fit one's own point of view. Given that it's a completely fictional setting, too, there's little need for emotionally charged 'how could you support such a horrific thing' angle, either.

A lot of things in this game - and franchise as a whole - are also deliberately left open to personal interpretation and speculation. I'd like to think that's a large part of the charm of FFXIV and why it has a lot of fans invested in the game's lore. It mostly certainly appears that way from what I've seen of the role-playing community.

I guess what I'm getting at is that at the end of the day it's a fictional setting. If people are getting to the point where they're agitated by someone's else's interpretation of a make believe world then that, to me, is a pretty good sign that simply agreeing to disagree is the ideal solution.

Is such an arrangement to your liking?

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Originally Posted by Theodric

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It was a lighthearted jab poking fun at how predictable it was you would try and force moral ambiguity into a situation that has very little. (Before you bring out the flamethrower yes I do make fun of myself too - go read the Job quest thread where I called myself an edgelord.)

If you're free try and illustrate why you feel moral ambiguity exists in a given situation, others are free to disagree and tell you why. "Agree to disagree" is just a way of saying "I don't want to discuss it, I just want to say my piece. Anybody who disagrees can just... whatever." I'm far more fond of discussion, but if that's how you feel then I shall refrain from trying to engage you in future debates.

(Note: fantasy worlds may be fictitious, but they often run on moral systems very similar to the real world. XIV, by and large, does so - as far as I can tell, at any rate.)

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Originally Posted by Cilia

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If it was a mere jest, then fair enough! I wasn't entirely sure so I appreciate the clarification. As far as moral ambiguity goes, my stance is that it's generally pretty subjective. It's less a case of supporting a cause and more an acknowledgement as to why someone or something may be driven to act a certain way. From their perspective they may very well have justifications for their actions.

I'm not one to shy away from engagement or debates. I just don't feel it's my place or anybody else's place to try and enforce a particular interpretation of the game's nuances. That's pretty much what I meant by the whole 'agree to disagree' thing. It's clear we're not going to convince each other to see things differently and that's absolutely fine!

I also like to think that members of the lore team read this board every now and then. It's just a hunch and I have no solid evidence that it's the case but a lot of the questions and moral issues we've debated here have since found their way into the game itself. The DRK 60-70 quest chain is an excellent example of what I mean. I won't spoil it here for those who haven't done it yet but it addresses quite a bit of what the debates we've engaged in have brought up.

So, in my eyes, it's well worth continuing down such a path and as such I will do just that. I adore FFXIV's setting and I very much appreciate the nuances that exist - and I also love to explore the 'how' and 'why' that surrounds each character be they an antagonist or a protagonist.

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Originally Posted by SantoLuciano

I think the fallen 13th shard could be Final Fantasy 13 "Lighting Returns" because the story behind that game is to save as many people as possible before the world is completely consumed by the darkness. And I think the reason the Warriors of Darkness's world is "consumed by light" is in reference to Final Fantasy 1, because once you beat the came and conquer the darkness the game ends.and so does their world.

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But we never saw an Ascian in FF13, also they never had Warrior of Lights in this game and there was no Hydealyn. Also at the end they completely made a whole new universe, while in FF14 the whole shard became the void. Also the world of the WoD is not consumed by Light. It would have but thanks to our crystals Minfilia was sent there to take the lights with her before they could consume the world, thus this shard is save.

Lets not forget that we already have FF15 thus we should have way more shards since they are way more FF worlds. Also I would simply not like it because I still have the hope that we will get some more information of the shards and if those are just the FF worlds than this would mean just old information again and not a real unique story to them.

FF callbacks are all nice but the world itself should have their own stand alone lore and I fear that this would put a dent on that. (FF14 is still a main game of the franchise and not a spin of like Dissidia)

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About omega: I really hope that it will stay this soulless machine. Not every single character needs to be morally grey or have a morality at all. I like that its not evil at all because right now its simply is a machine and does it things to get better and tries to do this logically. Its kinda like a robot that is created to do a certain task and if that task means to mass kill then it would not make the machine evil, it would make the one behind the machine bad.

(Also sorry but after SB I still just see Garlemald als black with some kind of grey between it.)

There is a significant difference between a motive and a justification. Without a justification, there is no moral ambiguity to be had.

As for Omega's motive? It has none, not truly. It lacks a will. Omega does only as it is programmed to - evolve through formidable opposition. It fought Shinryu not because it wanted to protect us, but because that's what its protocol deemed the logical course of action. It didn't threaten us with genocide because it's malevolent, it did so because it concluded that threatening the lives of others will draw out more power from us, potentially enabling it to discern what allows us to overcome statistical odds and perform "miracles." Without a heart or soul, Omega is a completely amoral being - it acts without concern to right and wrong. It likely doesn't even understand the concept, and applying any morality to an amoral, heartless, soulless machine is impossible. It has no moral code. (That lack of a soul also leaves it creatively sterile, but that's a bit of a digression from the point I'm getting at.)

I predict there is more to what Omega is doing, I don't think it's just testing us, we'll likely learn more in the next two parts. It's nice to have a fair bit of story frontloaded this time, rather than being kept until the end, as it was with Coil and Alexander.

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Omega: Initiating new test: subject Alpha group members to severe stress. Searching database for suitable event...
Omega: <bloop> Event found: the death of a comrade.

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I bet the next 2 tiers will be of different worlds. The only FF games I know of where a comrade dies is...

FF7: Most likely, especially given that FF1-6 tropes have been done TO DEATH so far, and the Magitek Scorpion in the Ala Mhigo dungeon was the first major FF7 reference
FF4: Technically Tellah dies to Golbez and is your comrade. Yang, Cid all "die" temporarily as well. Fighting the Elemental Archfiends would be fun
FF5: Galuf dies, so if we retain the FF5 theme, we would fight more FF5 bosses, Azulmagia/Necrophobe/Nereid, etc
FF2: Josef dies, as does Ricard I believe. There's Astaroth, Beelzebub, Adamantoise and a few other notables.

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Originally Posted by Jonnycbad

FF2: Josef dies, as does Ricard I believe.

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I think the shorter list for FF2 is party members who didn't beautifully sacrifice themselves for the cause. Pretty sure it's Yoshida's favorite. And possibly Tabata's.

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Originally Posted by Jonnycbad

I bet the next 2 tiers will be of different worlds. The only FF games I know of where a comrade dies is...

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Well Omega could try it again (yet we would only care about those that we already know so killing some fictional character from a different Final Fantasy surely would not shock us that much). But I believe that scene already played out with Biggs and Wedge. Omega did comment how it failed to kill them, so it was its plan to make us more emotional by killing those two. (And somehow to achieve that it only sent in one monster..x)) In the end it was (imo) more of a: "Well seems we will lose another comrade...well just kidding" moment.

I thought the "death of a comrade to stress us out" was going to be him reconstructing Haurchefant as a boss fight or something when it was first mentioned. I guess sending pigs after a couple of side characters we only see every 6 months is fine too. On a list of "people close to WoL" I don't rate Biggs/Wedge that highly. Maybe that's just who Omega knew about, because it feels like ganking Tataru or (or even Higiri or F'lhammin) would be easier and more effective.

Basically what I'm saying is if he's trying to get WoL to go SSJ he needs to kill Krillin instead of going after the pig and the cat.

Also I think we're gonna get another raid of legendary villains before Omega goes "okay villains aren't working" and starts throwing heroes at us.

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I thought the "death of a comrade to stress us out" was going to be him reconstructing Haurchefant as a boss fight or something when it was first mentioned. I guess sending pigs after a couple of side characters we only see every 6 months is fine too.

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Do the DRK 62-70 quests, you'll be surprised.

I don't recall Hfaunt showing up in those, just bad guys who were dead.

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Originally Posted by Brannigan

I thought the "death of a comrade to stress us out" was going to be him reconstructing Haurchefant as a boss fight or something when it was first mentioned. I guess sending pigs after a couple of side characters we only see every 6 months is fine too. On a list of "people close to WoL" I don't rate Biggs/Wedge that highly. Maybe that's just who Omega knew about, because it feels like ganking Tataru or (or even Higiri or F'lhammin) would be easier and more effective.

Basically what I'm saying is if he's trying to get WoL to go SSJ he needs to kill Krillin instead of going after the pig and the cat.

Also I think we're gonna get another raid of legendary villains before Omega goes "okay villains aren't working" and starts throwing heroes at us.

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Biggs and Wedge were used because they are technically comrades, and are typically limited to side stories (Crystal Tower, Alexander, Omega) these days. The writers wouldn't endanger characters that still have major roles to play in the MSQ.

Honestly? I'm very surprised the WoL didn't go SSJ when Zephirin killed Haurchefant. Being a DRK I was like "Why am I not exploding in a black flame aura?!"

We'll probably continue to face villains and villains alone. Remember, Omega is a being ruled by logic - it can only create things that fit within that realm. Heroes, who fight and sacrifice for others, are highly illogical. Essentially, Omega can't create simulacra of heroes because it doesn't understand them. It cannot understand them because it lacks a heart or soul to understand them with.

... that's my hypothesis, at any rate. Nero questions why Omega doesn't make simulacra of the heroes, who came out victorious in those tales... and that's the best answer I got.

Addendum:

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Originally Posted by Brannigan

I don't recall Hfaunt showing up in those, just bad guys who were dead.

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Hide-boxed for spoilers.

It's heavily implied that Myste's manifestation was in response to the Warrior of Light's guilt over their inability to save Haurchefant (and to a lesser extent Ysayle). His appearance highly resembles a younger version of him (albeit with Ysayle's hairstyle), he first manifests just outside Fortemps Manor, and some of his lines further suggest this - not to mention one of the Quest Log entries, stained by Fray once again, mentions Haurchefant's broken shield. Count Edmont showing up and briefly mentioning Haurchefant at the end of the questline (when you've returned to the Last Vigil explicitly to try and discern why Myste manifested then and there) further suggests this.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

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Ah, yeah, that's what I get for posting while sleepless.

I picked up on the Ysayle hair but I guess I didn't put Myste->Haurchefant together for whatever reason. I also kind of assumed that Myste showed up as a female for female PCs

Aaaand the PC kinda did go SSJ over the course of Heavensward. Singularity Reactor and pretty much all of Azys Lla is supposed to be solo in canon, right? It's usually kind of ambiguous, but there it seemed pretty explicit that you're just pressing forward as all of your scion/Ishgard allies buy you time so that you can take out Regula, a Super Ascian, and a super duper primal all by yourself (which leaves said primal freaking out like Frieza). Plus (and this is also kind of ambiguous) you're supposed to be like one of very few adventurers allowed in Ishgardian territory. Compared to Bad Daddy Pope, most of the encounters feel much less personal in Stormblood and a lot of them mention you calling in "adventurer buddies" for backup.

Anyway, I agree with you on their reasoning for using Biggs and Wedge. It's annoying to me, though, that they keep these plotlines so separate. I thought the whole point of making the easy modes was so that everyone could see the story, so why make the stories in them matter so little? Everyone in the world knew that Scarface from the Alexander storyline was going to go away at the end just like Red Eye Cat Guy from Crystal Tower. They kind of dipped some main plot into the 3.x primal story with Regula getting unceremoniously offed though.

Anyway, while I'm rambling, here's my speculation: If the savage raid includes Neo-Exdeath as a phase (which I think it will), then the next tier won't have anything to do with FFV. I'm gonna say it'll be FF1 because 6 and 3 have been done, 7/8/9/10 end bosses are all too tied to their games, 12 might show up in the 24-man raid, and no one wants to see more FFXIII models in the game. They could do Zeromus but that'd be weird. I guess doing Exdeath was weird too.
Boss order will be Lich->Kary->Kraken->Garland/Chaos (Tiamat is busy in Azys Lla)
We beat the nostalgia out of them or whatever and Omega goes "Hmmm... I think I understand heroes now" and makes us fight some heroes. As for who exactly, I have no idea. Butz and Tina/Terra at least have some potential for boss mechanics with job switching and transformations/magic. Maybe they could throw some magitek mounts into a Terra fight because everyone hates vehicle fights. Maybe make a boss fight where you need to beat a 6 man party from FFXI. Then Omega determines that you (of course) are the ultimate challenge and decides to 1v8 you.

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Originally Posted by Brannigan

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Well, in regards to Myste,

... since I can't read or speak Japanese I can't confirm it for myself, but I'd wager the JP version makes his gender ambiguous like Nael was for 1.x. The EN version can't get away with that though, so...

Whether or not we did a lot of the implicitly solo fights in 2.x actually solo in-canon is now up for debate given the ham-handed mentioning of other adventurers for every 4.0 dungeon and trial (be it in the Journal or the Duty Finder description). I agree the PC went subtly berserk during 3.0, but SSJ is not subtle at all.

As for the fights in 4.0 being personal or not...? While the war wasn't personal for most PCs (Ala Mhigan Highlanders and PCs who claim Othardian descent aside), the fights against Zenos and to a lesser extent Fordola definitely were. For me, at any rate. Zenos led a massacre at Rhalgr's Reach, allowing the murder of combatants who had already surrendered, wounded Y'shtola so badly she was out of commission for all of 4.0, then beat us half to death and let us walk for his own amusement. And again at Yuzuka Manor. Fordola starts out not posing a threat, but after a couple losses (and having to endure the racism her Garlean compatriots throw her way) she gets desperate and gets a Sharingan the Resonant Echo. First thing we see her do with it is humiliate and put Alisae out of commission for the rest of 4.0. Got personal real quick after that.

Biggs and Wedge were used because they were relevant to Omega's plot (the Ironworks seems largely disconnected from the MSQ these days - even Cid's appearance in 4.0 was little more than a cameo), most likely. If Omega really wanted to get our jimmies rustled it would have gone after Alphinaud and / or Alisae, the closest thing we have to a Krillin. (Alisae much more so for RDM players. I think. I haven't leveled it that much yet.)

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Originally Posted by Cilia

Biggs and Wedge were used because they were relevant to Omega's plot (the Ironworks seems largely disconnected from the MSQ these days - even Cid's appearance in 4.0 was little more than a cameo), most likely. If Omega really wanted to get our jimmies rustled it would have gone after Alphinaud and / or Alisae, the closest thing we have to a Krillin. (Alisae much more so for RDM players. I think. I haven't leveled it that much yet.)

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Omega can only create simple creatures, Alphinaud can defend himself, Alisaie is in the middle of a military outpost, so she should be safe as well.
Biggs and Wedge however are not trained in combat, and were on their own, so they were an easy target.

Also I am not really sure if Omega can see who we like. I mean maybe I missed it but I got the feeling that it cant look into someones memory since it only created bosses that we had not met and that were fictional. Since we went around with those NPCs and it saw us with them, it probably thought that they were friends. Also they were alone in a room and Wedge never fought, so it probably thought that he was not able to fight. (Why it only sent one creature is still behind me)

About solo or not (since off topic I will put it behind spoilers)

I really would love to know how it was in the Japanese version, because I really got the feeling like this was something special from the English version..at least the lore book states, that we did nearly everything in 2.0 solo and every story part in 3.0 was also done solo. The writer of the lore book even ask themselves how the WoL managed to do it. Taking the lore how it is, only makes true sense if we are alone most of the time..Thats why I found it strange that they went back with "take adventurers with you" in 4.0. But in the German version there was nothing like that for the two primals and it only started to hint at this with Doma castle. It still does not make sense..we went there only with the scions and you can only arrive there with ship. This ship takes months to reach Kugane. How did we have our other adventurers with us? Also the battle to proof our worth as a warrior was a solo challenge..wouldnt it be cheating if we go in with four people? All the other NPCs have done it alone, and since we are stronger than them, we should have been able to do it alone too. So mentioning adventurers there makes no sense at all.

Where are the other adventurers in Doman castle when we confronted her at the end? Did they just leave us behind? Also we only had a certain amount of birds waiting to rescue us from the castle..did we plan to leave the other adventurers behind? After that we only travel back to Eorzea with the scions but suddenly our adventure friends are with us again?

Also we always fought against Zenos alone. But suddenly in the big show down we are with other adventurers again? And as a ingame mechanic we fought through Ala Mhigo with only four people, yet in lore we directly go against Zenos and suddenly we are eight people? Also the cutscene between that shows us alone with him..so where did the others go? He also only calls us as his first friend..wouldnt that be bad if we needed 7 other players to beat him? Would we truly earn his respect if we needed other people? We teleport back down and then we see Alphinaud and Lyse running towards us, and we are alone again. Why would the other adventurers not teleport to us? After that we have that walking and singing scene where Lyse only comments on us too and no other adventurer is seen. Why are they missing in such important scenes if they did their part in the fight? Why is it always us that is praised if we had others with us?

I just find it strange how we have done so much alone in 2.0 and 3.0 and suddenly we need others in 4.0. But those came out of nowhere and were gone in the next important scene..and these fourth wall breaking comments from Alisaie and other NPCs were never that much in the German version, so I kinda wonder if Koji just made it a joke to write these in the English version.

As far as I'm concerned:

I'm standing by my standard of "if companions are in important cutscenes, (not just the dungeon/boss intro and exit CS), then we had help. If we are solo in cutscenes, we are soloing the content"

Just taking the flavor text as that, a bit of fourth-wall breaking humor that adds to the story for sure, but isn't cannon

The ham-handed mentioning of "other adventurers" for 4.0's dungeons and trials was probably in response to a debate on this very forum that erupted in the weeks leading up to Stormblood about whether or not we had a party with us for dungeons and trials. The general consensus was "if the Journal says so." Some people refused to believe that, though... so the EN version mentions a party for all the 4.0 instances, sensible or not. (You just happened to have seven buddies who went on a fishing trip to the Far East possessed of the Echo, and who were willing and able help you take on Susano'o right then and there. You just happened to have a few friends nearby who were willing and able to help you get through Bardam's Mettle, even though you're so far from home that's very nearly implausible it's supposed to be a solo trial. I mean, if nobody finds out, then no harm no foul!)

... since these references to "adventurer friends" apparently aren't in the JP, DE, or FR versions, I'm going to go with "The localization team is mocking people who overanalyze gameplay mechanics and try to find a lore reason for them." Not everything needs one.

I, personally, always assumed that the Warrior of Light had backup at almost every turn anyway. It doesn't bother me in the slightest, since if anything it means that bosses aren't being slain by just one person in the canon story but multiple individuals which respects the strengths and plights of the antagonists more than just saying the Warrior of Light thrashes them alone.

I don't think it's a case of the localisation team mocking people, either.

The lore book says it was done by ourselves so I'm not believing the journal entry. If I see myself in a cutscene by myself that means I solo it in the story. I don't count entry cutscene and ending cutscenes of winning. If there are no signs of the people that helped then I will just pretend they are not there.

@Cilia: It just annoys me because it often does not make sense in lore. If they want others with us thats fine but make it so that it makes sense and not some fourth wall breaking comments. (Which are only in the English version anyway) I mean they even have those comments in the dungeon where we should prove our worth as a warrior of the xaela..and somehow we need other adventurers for that were the NPCs like Lyse went through it alone? (And it is shown that we are stronger than that) Also there is only one exit which we leave alone, so where did the other ones go? (What WoL are we that cheats their way through something like that?)

I am with Remus on that one. If we are shown in the cutscene after that alone (like before and after the Zenos fight) it was solo. Otherwise we all would be jerks. The other adventurers would be jerks for leaving us alone in important scenes (like Doma castle), we are jerks for getting all the fame for ourself and the others are jerks for only saying thank you to the WoL. And Zenos was a jerk too since he only wants us a friend and not the 7 other people too. ;) Also if we have so many other adventurer friends that are as strong as us and have the echo..why do we always have to fight primals and are called in for that? (I know that its a game and all but still..)

I just want to have lore where I can say: Hey that makes sense. It would be nice if we could chose NPCs adventurers at the very beginning that are stand ins in the cutscene if they are truly with us.

I like the lore, its one of the reason why I still play the game so having something like that written in the English version annoys me. They chose to not use this in 3.0 where we canonically went against Thordan and his knights alone and suddenly in 4.0 we need help in a trial that in lore is meant to be done alone. If they really saw the discussion about this and choose this as a way to end it, then I have no words left. Especially since its the same people that wrote the lore book, where they explicitly chose to have all primals be done solo. And only a handful of instances with adventurers. If they want us to have others with us they could have written it in the book thus leaving no room for arguments but they chose not to do so.

I am sorry that I write that much about it and I know that I am over thinking it but I just like it when every part of the story makes sense, and the other adventurers are often making no sense at all and thus its a point I like to discuss.

And to make it more on topic:...At least with stuff like Omega I can see the possibility of having others with us, since we could just leave it and gather people. Even if all the NPCs still only worry about us but that could be explained that they dont know the rest or something like that.

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

Shouldn't we then say Chrono is now part of the Final Fantasy XIV cosmos, as well?

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Well, if World of Final Fantasy is anything to go by, there is a Final Fantasy Multiverse. Yet, even further beyond that, there is the Extraverse. Non FF SE products like Sigma Harmonics and Xenogears are from there, so Chrono very well might be too. A bit harder to travel to than other universes within your own multiverse though.

I don't see why dimensional travel between FF universes wouldn't be considered canon for all games. Unless it directly contradicts preexisting lore, then it is canon material that was published in an official FF release and should therefor be considered canon unless proven otherwise. I mean, sure, it totally is a plot contrivance with the primary purpose of having fun cross overs, but that shouldn't invalidate it.

Omega Savage 4 spoilers:

So, Ex-Death transforms into Neo Ex-Death exclusively in OS4. Aside from being yet more wonderful fan service this, to me, suggests that his story in FFXIV is pretty much over.

Hasnt it been confirmed that Gilgamesh is the same Gilgamesh from the other ff games? Isn't he and actual dimension hopper?