Please do not nerf Astrologian instead buff WHM/SCH

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Originally Posted by Jijifli

Then we buff WHM like OP said. Does that not fix the issue?

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Buffing HPS and/or personal DPS wouldn't fix much of anything. WHM doesn't need more DPS... And increasing HPS could make WHM required until we hit a certain ilvl where HPS will be ignored for more utility. Neither situation sounds ideal.

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Originally Posted by VanilleFang

Buffing HPS and/or personal DPS wouldn't fix much of anything. WHM doesn't need more DPS... And increasing HPS could make WHM required until we hit a certain ilvl where HPS will be ignored for more utility. Neither situation sounds ideal.

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I think their kit should be reworked a bit to include regens and off globals as well as Plenary being an AoE heal. Maybe buff their DPS a bit.

SCH, from what I hear is not fun to play, while it remains effective. I don't play SCH in a hardcore setting so I can't comment on it too much.

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Originally Posted by Aomine1992

But see this is the problem with the ones asking for a nerf, most of us agree that the other healers need some fixing including your PI statement...but my thing was ask for that stuff but not at the expense of another class, balance is fine because it's not always up now if it came up frequently then I would agree to maybe lower its dps increase but it doesn't...

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This is what we were hoping for in regards to healer balance when SE said they were doing things for Stormblood.

Yeah...

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Originally Posted by Rai_Takara

I think their kit should be reworked a bit to include regens and off globals as well as Plenary being an AoE heal. Maybe buff their DPS a bit.

SCH, from what I hear is not fun to play, while it remains effective. I don't play SCH in a hardcore setting so I can't comment on it too much.

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Those all sound like solid ideas.

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Originally Posted by Brightshadow

As we know Ast is currently the most powerful healer currently in game, but everything does so much damage and we have to focus on cards please don't nerf us instead buff the other two healers independently. I do agree that the specialist should be stronger than the hybrid.

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This is what we hoped would happen with Tanks in SB, and look what happened...

You white mages just want some utility because you guys are the usual afk healer which don't touch a single dps skill and want to be useful for your party, right?

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Originally Posted by Caduagm

You white mages just want some utility because you guys are the usual afk healer which don't touch a single dps skill and want to be useful for your party, right?

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Yes. /10ch

Whm in which I main is purfectly fine. Actually they consolidated the spells they removed in one. I dps and heal. Glad they removed stance switching and insta cast areo 2. The vocal minority is salty cause they can't do it they old way. I could go on. I love the new way. Just an small learning curve is all.

AST has the strongest heals considering the sect bonuses (only loses to Medica II afaik), strongest utility and ridiculously OP shields. They only lose out in personal DPS slightly, and they more than make up for it in every other way.

WHM seems to be at a decent level, SCH requires more reworking of their abilities than flat out buffs imo. But to say AST doesn't need to be nerfed is just stupid. If they were to buff the other healers to that level, there would be no challenge in playing a healer and even more people would choose to abandon the role out of pure boredom. Nerfs may not be nice, and SE have proven countless times that they can't seem to ever get it right, but leaving AST where it's at right now would be even worse. As a SCH main, there's definitely some salt here, but it's flat out annoying that one job can do everything much better than you. And they can even change sects and play a better version of the other healer too!

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Originally Posted by ToasterMan

I don't think AST needs to be necessarily be nerfed. I think it needs a complete rework.

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Umm why do they need a complete rework?

Also they are not gonna nerf AST, it would kill the class if they do.

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Originally Posted by Kabzy

AST has the strongest heals considering the sect bonuses (only loses to Medica II afaik), strongest utility and ridiculously OP shields. They only lose out in personal DPS slightly, and they more than make up for it in every other way.

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I have personally played AST for quite a while, even with what you CALL op shields, they are not op in the slighest, the Aspected Benefic spell costs alot of MP that ifyou abuse it, you run out of mp real quick, it is my preferred Healing class, I know it inside and out and it is anything BUT op, and the cards are incredibly random. Clearly SE thought the class needed improvements this expansion, they didnt overtune it, they gave it what it needed. For crying out loud I used to never use Nocturnal Sect because the shields from it were so useless, now I can effectively use both Diurnal and Nocturnal cause Noct doesnt suck like it used to.

Also furthermore, the Sects does not make AST a better healer then the other two...not by a long shot. Even with the Regen effect from Diurnal, it is not at all as good as what WHM has with Medica II and Regen cause A) Aspected Helios and Aspected Benefic both cost more MP then Medica II and Regen and B) I know that Medica II and Regen have higher potencies.

In short, guys...lay off of ASTs, they are not OP, they got something they really needed and I am not saying this cause I love AST, I know they are not op.

Addendum: I still play my WHM cause for one thing, it still has things it can do that AST CANNOT, for example WHMs better AoE healing over time and better Regen with less mana costs, and Benediction is a huge life saver. I am though a better AST then I am with my WHM and that is because of skill and not because of differences in class power.

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Originally Posted by Ootarion

the Aspected Benefic spell costs alot of MP that ifyou abuse it, you run out of mp real quick

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Looooooool

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Originally Posted by Kabzy

Looooooool

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Not sure why you are loling, I know I am not wrong about it :3

The spell does infact cost enough MP that if you abuse it, it hurts your MP. Yes yes, the Ewer card and Lucid Dreaming, but Ive learned to heal without having to pop those just to use another spell which means not making liberal use of Aspected Benefic.

And if loling is your best response, then you really have no counter argument, no rebuttle.

The only "nerf" Astro needs is for Balance to be reduced to 10% or removed entirely. Frankly, I am not a fan of any ability that flat out increases and attack power like that because it instantly because the only ability that matters. Astro, at the moment, revolves around how often you can draw Balance, which I feel ruins the otherwise unique card system mechanic.

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Originally Posted by Ootarion

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As someone who mained Astrologian since HW launch to the start of SB: I do not believe AST is OP, but the other two healer jobs do need at least a slight buff to be on par with Astrologian, particularly Scholar. White Mage not as much.

While Aspected Benefic costs more MP, you're not supposed to use it so often that you burn yourself out of MP. The shields from Noct Sect are the amount of HP recovered plus a percentage of that number tacked on (overall better than non crit Adloquiums in terms of shields, plus Noct shields are instant cast unlike adlo). As I've been leveling AST recently, I found using the shields to supplement my healing rather than spamming it was far more effective in both amount healed and MP management.

Cards are random, but as there are only six cards (not counting lord/lady since my AST is only 63 atm and haven't studied the mechanics of the two), the chances of getting cards you want (i.e. Balance) are 1/6, which really are not bad odds all things considered. Redrawing gives another 1/5 chance to get what you want, so there's nothing really to complain about how balanced the chances are of getting what you want. And on the topic of Balance, AST is the only job with the utility to give a party wide 10% damage boost, which can also be extended by several seconds via Celestial Opposition is insane. On top of that the other abilities AST has at it's disposal are arguably more effective than the other two healers (for example, if you are healing in Dirunal stance you can pop synergy, largesse(? divine seal), lightspeed for near instant casts and MP cost reduction, aspected helios, collective unconscious, aspected benefic (all regens on tank), and time dialation on the tank. Celestial opposition also adds more time to all of those. And if you pop lucid dreaming or have a ewer to recover some MP, CO extends the length of both and all buffs you applied to other party members.

Furthermore, as for diurnal sect; while the regen it provides is not as potent as regen itself from WHM, it provides an instant cure which regen does not. Aspected Helios isn't quite as good as Medica 2 in terms of potency, but as I recall the total potency for diurnal aspected benefic was higher than regen (could be wrong as I don't have the data in front of me, just going off of memory).

While I believe Astrologian is not overpowered and as the original post suggests: should not be nerfed. I also believe that it is in a better much position than both other healing jobs in terms of utility. AST's shields are objectively better than SCH's since it doesn't require a lucky crit to give bigger shields than amount healed on top of being instant cast. And while White Mage has better overall healing ability and MP management, AST's utility far exceeds that of both other jobs (granted some depends on luck).

TL;DR

AST is objectively in a better position and WHM/SCH need buffs in some areas to bring them on par with AST.

Let Balance keep its potency but be single target only.

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Originally Posted by Rita1989

Let Balance keep its potency but be single target only.

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Single target balance is like %20, it used to be %10 on single target if I recall. I wouldn't be against reverting it (expanded royal road halves the effect of all the cards in exchange for AoE). Would be an overall DPS hit, but AST would still be desirable for the damage boost.

For some reason SE didn't believe it balanced enough though, so they gave it a boost when they balanced AST a couple patches ago.

Let's be realistic. If you nerf cards (particularly Balance since that's all anyone cares about), there will be no reason to care about AST. It'll be the hybrid class with no identity of its own, just like when it released but with less shitty healing. Are we forgetting that they specifically buffed cards because their effects were negligible (and even surpassed by Selene)? WHM is powerful but is lacking in some kind of unique utility beyond free-Holy dungeon spam. Scholar HAS unique qualities but was nerfed to hell and back in Stormblood.

Give WHM something unique for raids and buff Scholar. Then you'll have 3 at least moderately unique Healers with individual strengths.

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Originally Posted by File2ish

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For the most part I agree however a crit aspected benefic is still a base 250% shield, while the crit adlo is just a 200% (x2) so crit wise I want to say the aspected benefic would still be better. Have not tested so I cant back up this argument. The jobs should be brought up and not nerfed and any content should be balanced around that. The only thing i've seen from SE nerf n buff is a storm of bad and I dont trust them to bring things down and up in a proper manner.

I do know at lvl 60 my AST provides a better shield that my BiS 70 SCH without a crit.

AST needs to step back a bit.
I don't care if they keep their utility buffs, that's their thing. But by no means, should they be healing for the same numbers as a WHM, and even stronger than a SCH. It's so stupid.

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Originally Posted by Exiled_Tonberry

AST needs to step back a bit.
I don't care if they keep their utility buffs, that's their thing. But by no means, should they be healing for the same numbers as a WHM, and even stronger than a SCH. It's so stupid.

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They threw themselves into a hole with Astrologian by making it heal identically to both other jobs. Healing is what's most important for a Healer, and yet AST also has buffs that need to be taken into account for balancing. Problem is, if you nerf their Healing, they still need to be able to heal all content. If their healing is weaker than WHM and SCH, that just means WHM and SCH will heal in excess because content will be keeping AST's nerfed healing as a baseline. If you nerf their cards, they lose the only identity they have. SE needs to improve SCH's healing or mitigation and give WHM something other than big heals. Each Healer SHOULD have a completely unique strength that makes them desirable or special in at least some content.

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Originally Posted by Cupcakesu

They threw themselves into a hole with Astrologian by making it heal identically to both other jobs. Healing is what's most important for a Healer, and yet AST also has buffs that need to be taken into account for balancing. Problem is, if you nerf their Healing, they still need to be able to heal all content. If their healing is weaker than WHM and SCH, that just means WHM and SCH will heal in excess because content will be keeping AST's nerfed healing as a baseline. If you nerf their cards, they lose the only identity they have. SE needs to improve SCH's healing or mitigation and give WHM something other than big heals. Each Healer SHOULD have a completely unique strength that makes them desirable or special in at least some content.

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Serious question. How does nerfing Balance specifically (the one true "problem" card in AST's deck) hurt their identity? If anything, Balance ITSELF is what hurts AST, because now their card system is set up in such a way where the only real desirable outcome IS Balance. I actually think nerfing or reworking it entirely would open up a lot of new avenues for more varied and engaging cardplay. Tank buster coming up? Whatever, I still want Balance anyway, the tank can deal with their issues on their own. Fight with heavy movement? Whatever, I still want Balance anyway, I just won't use it on the BLM cuz most of it'll go to waste, I'll use it on the mobile RDM or heavy-hitting SAM instead. I need MP? Whatever, I still want Balance anyway, cutting back on my own personal DPS a bit isn't worth losing 20% on an actual DPS job or 10% on an entire raid group.

For the most part, I actually agree with your statement about the devs developing AST into the gutter from the get-go with their stupid "hybrid" idea. But I also don't think we'll be ruined forever if Balance gets adjusted or changed to something else. I get tired of fishing for nothing but that orange icon 90% of the time.

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Originally Posted by File2ish

And on the topic of Balance, AST is the only job with the utility to give a party wide 10% damage boost

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*looks at ninja trick attack with 60 sec cooldown* I wish to correct you on something...

If you are lucky within 1 minute you can have an AoE balance, if you are unlucky the next AoE balance can be up to 5 or even 10 minutes away, this I have personally experienced as AST is the healer I main.

Meaning that in terms of total 10% raid wide damage boosting Ninja is in fact superior and has higher uptime on that damage boost, because it is 100% consistent in how it functions.

If you were to nerf balance then people would simply run a Ninja for raid wide damage boosting, especially since ninja also brings a good chunk of DPS to the table. If SCH was superior off-healer then AST would be dumped, as Ninja handles the damage boost during the burst moments and SCH would handle the shields with WHM handling the power healing and main healing.

Other than ast stealing sch's identity, the issue is the others need more utility. SCH had their taken, and they now...uhh... not really sure. AST does it better. WHM has more snap heals to fight back with, but that's all they have. A healer has to be able to heal enough to cover content though, or they are unusable, like original AST. If the other healers do not get some kind of utility, AST will always be better, unless its just made bad.

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Originally Posted by TankHunter678

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Except SCH shields are crap and unreliable. AST brings reliability in Noct power. A SCH shield is only ever really worth anything 10-15% of the time. AST shield is ALWAYS good.

The whole AST thing of light (Sun) and dark (Moon) is honestly just dumb. Instead of shields and regen, which already belong to other classes, why not get real creative and try an actual support class or something.

Right now, Balance...not even whether it is good or not but the community obession with DPS pushing this to be the only desired outcome, warps the entire class identity.

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Originally Posted by MrSmiley

Other than ast stealing sch's identity, the issue is the others need more utility. SCH had their taken, and they now...uhh... not really sure. AST does it better. WHM has more snap heals to fight back with, but that's all they have. A healer has to be able to heal enough to cover content though, or they are unusable, like original AST. If the other healers do not get some kind of utility, AST will always be better, unless its just made bad.

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Besides healing SCH used to be great off-healer DPS because even in mobility heavy fights their dots were always ticking for good chunks of damage, something that neither WHM or AST could do nearly as well.

But that got nerfed for SCH which really hurt them having a spot.

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Originally Posted by HyperSMB

Except SCH shields are crap and unreliable. AST brings reliability in Noct power. A SCH shield is only ever really worth anything 10-15% of the time. AST shield is ALWAYS good.

The whole AST thing of light (Sun) and dark (Moon) is honestly just dumb. Instead of shields and regen, which already belong to other classes, why not get real creative and try an actual support class or something.

Right now, Balance...not even whether it is good or not but the community obession with DPS pushing this to be the only desired outcome warps the entire class identity.

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Because SE decided to make SCH shields unreliable. Just like AST's cards are unreliable.

The problem is that SCH shields should have been consistent because SCH is built conceptually around preventing damage with foresight a proactive agent rather then a reactive one which is why their base was Arcanist. So clearly that needs buffing to make them consistent and reliable. At which point they stop being crap.

Of course if you do that then SCH gets their shield spot back from AST, and AST becomes all the more focused on their RNG card draws.

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Originally Posted by loreleidiangelo

Serious question. How does nerfing Balance specifically (the one true "problem" card in AST's deck) hurt their identity? If anything, Balance ITSELF is what hurts AST, because now their card system is set up in such a way where the only real desirable outcome IS Balance. I actually think nerfing or reworking it entirely would open up a lot of new avenues for more varied and engaging cardplay. Tank buster coming up? Whatever, I still want Balance anyway, the tank can deal with their issues on their own. Fight with heavy movement? Whatever, I still want Balance anyway, I just won't use it on the BLM cuz most of it'll go to waste, I'll use it on the mobile RDM or heavy-hitting SAM instead. I need MP? Whatever, I still want Balance anyway, cutting back on my own personal DPS a bit isn't worth losing 20% on an actual DPS job or 10% on an entire raid group.

For the most part, I actually agree with your statement about the devs developing AST into the gutter from the get-go with their stupid "hybrid" idea. But I also don't think we'll be ruined forever if Balance gets adjusted or changed to something else. I get tired of fishing for nothing but that orange icon 90% of the time.

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Here's the issue with the other cards: You can't make content that relies on them and thus no one will care about them. Balance and Arrow are both damage boosts, and people find that appealing because damage is ALWAYS useful. We trade our single target DPS for that boost. Will people care about Bole if content doesn't require it? Will people bring Astrologian to raids because of Bole? Probably not, because Bole will never matter. SE can't design content around having an extra 20% damage reduction, both because the other Healers don't have that level of mitigation and because you're not guaranteed a Bole draw, which means you will never need a Bole and thus can heal through damage naturally. Spear has never been useful, and it's clear by this point that SE doesn't care. Ewer and Spire are, again, not important enough to care about for raid content because one is only useful if the fight is terribly long (and most of the time raid content has enrage timers), and the other is useful typically only for yourself.

If they want to make the card system work without Balance, they need to literally redesign the entire system and every card with it. Otherwise, cards (without Balance) will be unnecessary bonuses that no one care about.

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Originally Posted by loreleidiangelo

^^^^^^^

Failing that though, Balance at the LEAST needs to be looked at/addressed. A flat 10% DPS increase on everyone in the raid is something no other healer comes even close to emulating in value.

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Why? Why does everyone want to kill BALANCE? Leave Balance along. So what that Astro gets that card.. it's an astro's card. Whm and Sc don't need to take Balance away. instead LEave astros alone and just give the other two healers some tools that are only for them. LEts do THAT instead of fucking up Astro cause of a card it was made to have. :c

I don't want to see AST nerfed, but unless they're willing to give WHM and SCH something comparable if not equal, The Balance does need looked at. A 10-30% DPS buff depending on Royal Road that stacks with other DPS buffs is hugely significant now that they removed a lot of them from jobs thanks to the reworking of cross classes. In a game where the meta becomes "as much DPS pumped in as possible," AST is a huge source of it now. That's just a straight up damage buff that can be semi-manipulated for maximum uptime that doesn't rely on random dice rolls in crits and direct hit. Moreso if you have two coordinating ASTs that had it ready to go before the fight started and work together to make sure the next is up as soon as the first falls, and then extended.

Baseline healing probably should be the same in all jobs but we eventually got to a point in ARR and HW (and will in SB) where excess healing is just not needed. Tanks are already wearing STR gear because they don't need the extra health. It's superfluous. WHM had the best healing throughput but we didn't need it, and thus were left behind in favor of the other healers that offered buffs to raid DPS. I'm not sure they'll ever be able to change this mindset. It's just how it goes in MMOs. But because we just don't need the throughput, we instead look to what else the healer can bring, and AST is winning without a contest. Even if RNG doesn't grace you with a Balance, you still have reliable shields and throughput healing.

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Originally Posted by Exiled_Tonberry

AST needs to step back a bit.
I don't care if they keep their utility buffs, that's their thing. But by no means, should they be healing for the same numbers as a WHM, and even stronger than a SCH. It's so stupid.

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By no means is AST a definitive more powerful healer then WHM.

Can they Benedict? No, their closest comparison is Essential Dignity but not even that is anywhere near as good. WHM has better MP management by default in that their MP costs on abilities like Medica II and Regen is infact lower then Aspected Helios and Aspected Benefic.

Do ASTs have anything even remotely as good as the WHM ability Thin Air? No, not even close. Even with Enhanced Ewer and Lucid Dreaming, AST does NOT have a means of Infinite MP like what WHM can pull out.

Do ASTs have the same DPS potential? Nope, WHMs have Stone IV, Aero III and Aero II and they also have Assize which is a 300 potency AoE that also heals respectively well and restores 10% mp, AST only has ONE offensive AoE and that is Gravity and they dont even get that until lvl 52. You could sit there and say that in a WHM vs AST comparison that the AST will have better damage, but this is incorrect, the WHM will still have better damage potential then the AST regardless of whether or not the AST buffs themselves with Enhanced Balance.

AST: Malefic III (Potency 220), Combust II (Potency 50, Gravity (Potency 200), Lord of Crowns (300), Earthly Star (Potency 150 in the first 10 seconds, 200 in the next 10 seconds)

WHM: Stone IV (Potency 260), Aero III (Potency 50 with a dot potency of 40 and is AoE), Aero II (Potency 50 with Potency 50 DoT), Assize (Instant Off Global AoE with Potency 300 attack and Heals and restores MP), Holy (Potency 200 with Stun)

WHM has has a stronger Off Global Cooldown aoe that is centered on them, while Earthly Star is an Off Global as well but once you set it, its stuck where it is, and in some fights, this is useless. Furthermore, again, WHM can use Thin Air at lvl 62 to negate ALL mp costs for 12 seconds, and thats 12 seconds of free casting whatever the heck they want, combined with Presence of Mind for faster casting....yeah, you really wanna say that AST is op? Yeah no. Am I saying WHM is op? No, but neither is AST, now please people, calm down and back off, AST is not op, there are PLENTY of things WHM can still do better.

Is AST better then SCH? Not from what I have seen.

SCH Adloquium has a cure potency of 300, which is 100 points higher then ASTs Aspected Benefic, even with a 15% heal buff increase, that isnt going to make Aspected Benefic+Nocturnal Sect shielding better at healing or shielding because of the fact that Adloquium still has a baseline potency of 300 AND it shields for the SAME amount it heals while Aspected Benefic's shield is 250% of what it heals, this means that if anything, without a crit, Aspected Benefic has a stronger shield, but when Adloquium crits, its healing is not only doubled but so is the shielding, so this means when a SCH CRITS with Adloquium, it will have a much stronger shield then AST will.

SCH still has an identify of it's own to, it has PETS! It even has more dots then AST and can bane for multi target dotting, but the pets alone, Eos and Selene still bring ALOT of helpful abilities to a fight.

So if anything, AST and SCH are about equal in my eyes. Oh and also, it has more offensive AoE then AST does.

If SCH and WHM are falling behind, it is only because they need buffs, so dont blame or accuse AST as the reason for the problems WHM and SCH might be having. If you nerf what AST has, it will NOT solve the problem as WHM and SCH will STILL be where they are. They need to buff WHM and SCH if anything.

I can even prove that WHM has better damage. I just attacked some target dummies and the numbers I got for my WHM's Aero III and Aero II, was a grand total 8,199 damage from just the Aero III and Aero II ALONE where as Combust II, an ASTs ONE and ONLY dot, only managed 7,660, a difference of 539 damage! OH and before anyone tries to say "AST has the balance card, your argument is invalid!" I should let everyone know, that my WHM when I did this test, is only lvl 60 with an average item lvl of 256 while my AST is lvl 68 with an average item level of 275! and yet despite this, like I said, between Aero III+Aero II vs Combust II there is only a damage difference of 539! So you guys still wanna say AST is to strong? Also this test did not take into account off global attacks like Assize, which is far and above stronger damage wise then Earthly Star ever will be, even with Enhanced Balance, Earthly Star would at best gain 100 more potency but that would just raise it up to Assize's damage potency, not exceed it and because of the Lily System, Assize can potentially have far more up time then Earthly Star. The ONLY thing Earthly Star does better is it has a stronger healing potency then Assize, but again Assize can have a much quicker cooldown if you use the Lily System to your advantage! Also I dont see Earthly Star restoring 10% mp each time it is used!

WHM has Benediction (Full Heal no matter what and is Off Global), Tetragrammaton (Cure Potency 700 and is Off Global and thanks to the Lily System it's cooldown can be shortened), Assize (Cure Potency 300 and is also Off Global and thanks to the Lily System it's cooldown can be reduced) oh and lets not forget Asylum (ground targetted aoe that remains in play for 24 seconds and has a cure potency of 100 and can ALSO have it's cooldown reduced by the Lily System). So many of you claim that AST is the better healer BUT IT DOES NOT have anywhere near the same number of Off Global Heals of such power! Even I, a tried and true main stay Astrologian, can clearly tell where a WHM does something better then me! That being said....am I saying Im weaker as a healer? No, I can say without any bias, that AST and WHM are on par, they have their own niches, I still gladly use my WHM when the mood strikes me.

But again, if any buffs are needed, I can see SCH getting buffed at least a little bit cause like I said, AST and WHM both are doing just fine.

I don't really see this as WHM vs AST because truth, they are on the same level. It really is a WHM/AST vs SCH thing in which SCH is just bad.

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Originally Posted by Rhindas

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I have had entire raids, even with 2 ASTs, where the only Balance cards used were the ones the ASTs came in with. Literally they never drew another balance the entire length of the raid. That is what happens when a 16.6% chance to draw what you want is at work. Even with a 20% chance to get what you want on the redraw.

People act like it is super consistent, when its not. I've even gone entire dungeons where I only draw 2 balance cards.

Well yeah, there's no accounting for RNG shenanigans. I have failed four 99% chances in gathering before, oh ho trust me I know! :p

But it doesn't have to be consistent. Even that huge burst at the start is more than the other healers can bring, and extra Balances are just icing. And the other cards help besides. WHM has some nice new skills though, which is probably the only thing keeping it from becoming AST/AST. The SCH scorn is wholly deserved, however.

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Originally Posted by Rhindas

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I would still want WHM as main healer because they would keep everyone alive, the problem with SCH is that they got nerf nuked and are not consistent when they should be.

And while that balance burst may help, you would still be better off over the course of the fight with Ninjas because of their consistent raid wide damage boosting and high DPS. Were it not for balance then well... the only thing AST has going for it is shields and so so cards. If SCH got fixed as it should then all AST would have going for it is the cards, at which point raid leaders would need to decide if the inconsistency of buffs is worth it or not.

Cause that first big boost at the start wont help when you lacked the DPS to get past the DPS check mid way into the fight.

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Originally Posted by TankHunter678

I would still want WHM as main healer because they would keep everyone alive, the problem with SCH is that they got nerf nuked and are not consistent when they should be.

And while that balance burst may help, you would still be better off over the course of the fight with Ninjas because of their consistent raid wide damage boosting and high DPS. Were it not for balance then well... the only thing AST has going for it is shields and so so cards. If SCH got fixed as it should then all AST would have going for it is the cards, at which point raid leaders would need to decide if the inconsistency of buffs is worth it or not.

Cause that first big boost at the start wont help when you lacked the DPS to get past the DPS check mid way into the fight.

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You are talking as if NIN and AST are exclusive. People will take both for the fact Balance and TA stack. The opener that creates is disgusting.

Oh I agree with the WHM throughput/sustainability as they're in a good place right now in that regard. But the thing about NIN is that you can have *both* AST and NIN. And typically you will right now thanks to the stacking. And you won't need the AST to get through a DPS check in a competent group; it's going to happen, the AST is just going to make it happen faster. And if that IS the problem with the group, they can just save their cards till then.

I'm curious to see how the raid goes tomorrow as raids seem to be how the devs determine the metrics.

Do we remember that Yoshi himself said we was going to nerf Sch and warrior? I remember Mr.Happy always talked about it months and months in advance from interviews he had with Yoshi. I feel like the nerf was going to happen and think alot of people missed it. Either or they might've been nerfed TOO much, but they were TOO strong before. They need to reach the BALANCE.

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Originally Posted by Rhindas

I'm curious to see how the raid goes tomorrow as raids seem to be how the devs determine the metrics.

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These are normal mode raids though. I bet SCH/SCH will pull through them just fine.

There's nerfing, and there's bludgeoning something into a fine paste. And to be clear, I completely agree SCH needed the nerfs. We were blatantly overpowered and could utterly break and trivialize content. Now, well...more than a bit too far in the opposite direction. We got the message!

And oh yes, SCH/SCH will get through it because it'll be designed such that any combination can. Virtually all content is. But I'm willing to bet AST and WHM will do it phenomenally better.

I should make it clear I'm 100% aware that essentially all content is doable by any combination. SCH/SCH can do anything right now and will be able to from this point forward, and the overwhelming majority of groups won't care what the makeup is. Dips and curves in performance across classes are normal and expected. This is on another level.

As much as i LOVE the WHM. I am absolutely disgusted and tired that almost its entire build is based around RNG. Rng on the Lilies. Rng on free cure 2's, Rng on the level 70 healing buff. I went through an entire boss fight last night. The level 70 buff only proc'd ONCE on the tank. Whm may have most powerful heals. But it is all RNG and forced Cure 2's for lilies.