Royal Menagerie

It makes Lakyshme extreme feel easy ;p

This fight feels close to an EX fight, actually. Yes, the mechanics aren't new but sometimes RNG screws you over like, "Hey, dodge my fist in the middle while my tail slams the few remaining tiles. Oh, and take a stack marker as well while everyone's busy surviving the rest."
A fight that hard shouldn't be in the MSQ. That's why EX and savage fights exist, to give the option of a harder fight to those who want a challenge or the "hardcore" elitists. Most people don't play MMO's 36hrs a day. Some won't even play on some weeks. The difficulty should be moderate so that all can advance the MSQ and THEN you can let the difficulty kick in in the optional content. Plus, SE locked the gear or even training for that fight behind that same very fight. That's a bit ridiculous.

You don't need to finish something the first week it comes out, it's the end of the game. Give it some time and continue to try, especially since there is no rush to finish any of the content coming out after it.

Lots of people have serious gripes with how easy 95% of this game is.

It's a beautiful, meaningful and well crafted fight. Every single mechanic in this fight is a known one and obvious at that. People need to stop rush-clearing content Unsync'd and start playing the game if they don't want to hit walls like that.

Steps of Faith was nerfed to oblivion because of complaints, and I'd hate to see this one be served the same treatment.

Thordan was the end of 3.0 and it came out as a total steamroll, surely that's not a direction we should wish for.

I don't think it's really hard IF everyone knows the mechanics (or even 7 out of 8 know them.) I think the biggest issues are a) they're very punishing if you don't do them right, b) counter intuitive to a degree (like the water spout), and c) too many and too random. I think C is the real issue here. You can go several runs and not see a mechanic once. Like, out of the 10 or 20 times I've done it, I've only seen the earth cone mega attack in phase 3 once and I haven't seen the fire one for a while now. It makes the learning curve very high. I don't think it's really good design to structure it like that. Someone can have learned all the mechanics he's seen and still screw up at this new mechanic 5 fights later. Raid wide AOEs and mechanics that can happen at once don't help things either.

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Originally Posted by Kalayel

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It isn't anywhere near an ex fight, most of the stuff is literally just dodging and old mechanics, what makes it hard is the playerbase who have grown accustomed to msq content being completely braindead. I also really doubt there is rng in that fight that can punish you like that, since every fight in this game is heavily scripted to the point when pretty much every move happens in determined order and I doubt the case here would be much different, if you feel there is a stack marker when everyone is busy its most likely by design.

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Originally Posted by Samsta

It isn't anywhere near an ex fight, most of the stuff is literally just dodging and old mechanics, what makes it hard is the playerbase who have grown accustomed to msq content being completely braindead. I also really doubt there is rng in that fight that can punish you like that, since every fight in this game is heavily scripted to the point when pretty much every move happens in determined order and I doubt the case here would be much different, if you feel there is a stack marker when everyone is busy its most likely by design.

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I disagree. Compare the Royal Menagerie to The Pool of Tribute (Extreme) or Omega. The lack of new mechanics does not automatically make it easy. Instead, it is probably the easiest by a long shot while Omega 2 or Omega 4 are probably the difficult ones (O2 in my opinion because of the gravity and upper and lower layer of mechanics that stack on top of one another makes it harder to tell what is going on until you've memorized it). Again, you have seen most of these mechanics before in previous fights, but it does not make it easy. The combination of a bunch of potential one hit kills to keep track of is what makes it difficult and the lack of instant death conditions is what makes it easy. Using that logic, Omega 3 should be hard because of the new mechanics introduced. We have the strange maze, the four role panels, the frog transformation, and the earth and ice panels. But, that is not the case. In fact, Omega 3 is the easiest of all four in my opinion. The entire Omega raid feels easier than the Royal Menagerie right now because of the numerous instant death conditions in the Royal Menagerie because the Royal Menagerie has twice as many mechanics. Your post game dungeons should not be easier than the main story quest and the main story quest boss should not feel like an extra hard bonus boss in a game.

Needs to be nerfed a lot when healers keep leaving then party gets disbanded. Maybe they should remove it from main story and make it like ex primals. Its not right how it is wait 45 minutes to hour in duty finder just have party disbanded after 3 wipes then have to wait another 45 minutes to hour to get in again. Just so can finish story so can buy lvl 70 gear.

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Originally Posted by TTB-Kun

The fight is fine, if you are not able to clear the problem are just your skills

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How's it your problem when tanks and healers keep leaving and party gets disbanded. Means fight is not just fine how it is and needs to be changed.

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Originally Posted by Telchar

It makes Lakyshme extreme feel easy ;p

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Lakshmi extreme makes Lakshmi extreme feel easy

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Originally Posted by hynaku

How's it your problem when tanks and healers keep leaving and party gets disbanded. Means fight is not just fine how it is and needs to be changed.

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The fight itself is fine. What needs to happen is for people to actually learn their Job, the mechanics of the fight (most of which have been seen already) and have patience/teach newbies. A few days ago, I intentionally DF'd this fight and the party, consisting of mostly new people, cleared it on their second attempt.

Nidhogg, Ozma, Scathach, Diabolos Hollow and Cruise Chaser (Blasty) were not nerfed.

I think everyone that has already successfully cleared this fight and is saying it was a piece of cake should play it one more time, and see what a joyous cake walk it really is in the DF. I've had 7 groups now and still can't get healers to dodge tails.

11 groups, upward of 50 attempts and no clears. Had both Tanks quit on one group when three people said they were new. Not liking this fight.:p

I've cleared it multiple times and I only use DF. The first clear rook 3 or 4 tries, but that was just learning mechanics. I would say that I'm an average skilled player at this game, at beast, and it's really not hard now that I know what I'm doing.

Really liked the difficulty of this fight. It's about time we had a decent challenge in the MSQ. My wife and I were both able to clear it in DF and PF in less than 3 wipes each time. Please don't nerf this fight, it gives the story some substance.

It's better to make a PF party if you are failing a lot, and make sure you're ready to learn the mechanics. It's not really that hard, I can promise you that.

Do not nerf this battle; everyone must step up their game and be ready to do anything you can to clear this trial. Come now, you guys just stepped up another 10 levels after all; It won't be satisfying if all that you get for your journey, your trials, ends up just like HW's Thordan battle in its climax. SE wants you to do your best and come out satisfied!

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Originally Posted by Age_of_Oblivion

I think everyone that has already successfully cleared this fight and is saying it was a piece of cake should play it one more time, and see what a joyous cake walk it really is in the DF. I've had 7 groups now and still can't get healers to dodge tails.

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I've beaten this four times with df and once with a pf to help someone clear..

Alright, just need to complain on the forums evidently. Cleared on my third try after posting.

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Originally Posted by Age_of_Oblivion

I think everyone that has already successfully cleared this fight and is saying it was a piece of cake should play it one more time, and see what a joyous cake walk it really is in the DF. I've had 7 groups now and still can't get healers to dodge tails.

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I have, twice (I'll go a third time after a phone call). In both instances, the party would wipe once and then get the clear a second time. All it takes is for everyone to be paying attention.

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Originally Posted by Age_of_Oblivion

I think everyone that has already successfully cleared this fight and is saying it was a piece of cake should play it one more time, and see what a joyous cake walk it really is in the DF. I've had 7 groups now and still can't get healers to dodge tails.

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Ok, i did. Have a bard friend(who goes out of his way not to do hard content and is only an ok combatant - hes an A+ crafter though) who just got to the end of the story. Joined him and a tank friend(good tank), and the 3 of us hit DF. Bard was going in blind, and we didnt explain the mechanics. No idea how many people in the DF were new. No one asked any questions, so tank pulled and we went for it. Bard died a few times early in phase 1 and 3, but was up for almost all of the last 40% or so of the fight. One shotted it. He didnt enjoy it as much as we did, but he got his clear.

This just shows a problem with how the game is made. People who have no clue what they are doing, randomly just press buttons and eat every AOE are faced with a fight that actually punishes poor DPS, messing up mechanics and not learning from mistakes. This isn't the fights fault, it's the players' fault for being so bad at the game they consider a fight with a bit more mechanics than a dungeon boss or normal primal "extreme/savage" level (lol) and the devs fault for letting it get to this point, where players who are flat out terrible at the game expect to face roll everything and be carried.

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Originally Posted by Age_of_Oblivion

I think everyone that has already successfully cleared this fight and is saying it was a piece of cake should play it one more time, and see what a joyous cake walk it really is in the DF. I've had 7 groups now and still can't get healers to dodge tails.

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I cleared it but I hated it and won't even play my other stand alone char to 70 due to the thought of doing that encounter again hehe. Nope, no way.

I have yet to clear it, most grps usually give up after a few wipes and I noticed that most are new to the fight. I wish I worked a better shift so I could use the FC but I don't so I'm stuck with DF. I have only been playing FF14 since Feb so a lot of things are new to me but coming from WoW for 12 years I understand mechanics on most fights but this one is way "overtuned" for a DF grp. I could see it on hard or ex but not when you place a bunch of random people together and expect a good outcome. Since everyone thinks it's fine just the way it is then why not change the mechanics in DF to more forgiving or at least after a wipe give some sort of grp buff to help so people will not leave after a couple of wipes? People play the game to have fun not get frustrated and way that's just my opinion of the RM...

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Originally Posted by Furbe

I have only been playing FF14 since Feb so a lot of things are new to me but coming from WoW for 12 years I understand mechanics on most fights but this one is way "overtuned" for a DF grp.

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Every DF group I've ended up there with has been capable of beating it. If you're having much trouble with it, maybe start a party finder so that you can have as many tries as you need with the same group? :)

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Originally Posted by Taika

Every DF group I've ended up there with has been capable of beating it. If you're having much trouble with it, maybe start a party finder so that you can have as many tries as you need with the same group? :)

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Thanks for the advice but our ally guild was doing it so I jumped in with them and finished it with no deaths. But I still stand by it being overtuned for a random pug grp. I'm sure most of the grps I had "could" have beaten it if they stayed together long enough but at what point does "doing the same thing over and over again and getting the same results not lead to insanity"? IMHO it would be easier to herd a bunch of long tail cats in a room full of rocking chairs.

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Originally Posted by Furbe

Since everyone thinks it's fine just the way it is then why not change the mechanics in DF to more forgiving or at least after a wipe give some sort of grp buff to help so people will not leave after a couple of wipes?

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This is already in the game. If you survive a fight long enough and then fail to win, your group(or you in many solo instances) gets a buff to your damage, healing, and health. Its called "The Echo". Its not always active on brand new content, but they usually turn it on the next patch if they started with it off. Then in some cases, they provide even stronger versions of it in later patches. So without them making any changes to this fight at all, it will end up being nerfed three times making it easier for new people to do. The first nerf comes from more people learning the fight, and trial roulette groups getting extra proficient at it. The second nerf is when more and more people have gear higher then ilvl 310, making DPS and healing requirements easier to hit. Those are slowly happening now. Then around patch 4.1, the echo will be turned on and it will get easier still. So no, they dont need to make any extra changes.

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Originally Posted by Frizze

The second nerf is when more and more people have gear higher then ilvl 310, making DPS and healing requirements easier to hit.

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Royal menagerie blocks the access to higher ilvl, in case you forgot. Best they can have is 300.

it took 4 DF groups for me to finish this. First one wiped ONCE and they all gave up. 2nd one half the group got washed off by the first water aether and everyone bailed. 3rd one tried 3 times then the healers both "lost connection" and never came back. 4th one we failed once.. everyone regrouped and we passed it with NO PROBLEMS.. I'm actually thinking I was lucky enough to join a group who queued with an incomplete party on that one, they seemed to know each other and once a mistake was pointed out people just didn't do it again.

BUT... this game is the final boss for the expansion story, it should be hard. I felt rewarded and heroic as the fight ended. I think it's fine.


this really is just a extreme version of "don't stand in the fire"

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Originally Posted by Kalayel

Royal menagerie blocks the access to higher ilvl, in case you forgot. Best they can have is 300.

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But it doesn't block player skill. Once most people have beaten it a million times, and we go from 7 people being new to 1 person being new then the fight will be easily beaten.

Ozma never got a nerf, and after a month or so people had no problems beating it.

The only "hard" part of the fight, are the adds needing to be killed in time.
(and even that is questionable, as the usual reason stems from dead DPS, be it standing in bad, healers not healing, ro tanks not tanking. Its possible for DPS to not know their AoE rotations.)

The fights biggest actual failure, is its inability to convey what to do with certain mechanics. Requiring a failure to learn what to do in some cases.

*But simply put, Tanks should stay semi near the middle, but on top of eachother.
If they are dead middle, they will fail to dodge AoEs that target the middle in time.

*DPS need to dodge things, and worry less about their DPS. (yes, because the only real DPS checks are the adds, with a very minimal DPS check on the tail, and over all fight. You can have half the group dead, and still win)

*Healers need to be CLOSER to the boss, not further, so as to avoid aoes better. (Like the cones that people tend to mess up)

*Healers need to AoE heal during raid dmg, and single target heal during ahk morhn. (or w/e its called)

*If you kill the tail, the boss takes like 400k dmg. This makes the fight easier.

*Tanks stand next to eachother, and use CDs on Ahk Morhn.

Thats it.

Pretty much summed up as, everyone dodge easily dodgeable AoEs, if they focus more on dodging.
Then Healers heal, Tanks Tank. DPS can semi afk when not dodging.

The challenge isnt that the fight is hard, but instead, that there is a lot of AoEs to learn.
Just learn the AoEs, and the fight is easy.

If we look at the games easiest EX fight, and easiest Savage Fight (When they are introduced, not after nerfs), this is actually easier than them both.

I would compare this to Garuda HM or Ifrit HM difficulty in 2.1 (not so much 2.0 when people were less geared, as those were a bit harder) and definitely not as hard as the EX versions.

(As a RDM, the biggest Issue I find is healers spending all their MP on rezzing DPS, and not having MP for AoE heals when raid wide dmg goes out. So I spend most of my time insta rezzing, and giving my limited MP away to healers. This pretty much brings the win, as we stop trying to dodge aoes, and just zombie the boss to death on 0 mp)

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Originally Posted by Kalayel

Royal menagerie blocks the access to higher ilvl, in case you forgot. Best they can have is 300.

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You not completing this fight stops you from getting higher ilvl gear. It does nothing to stop the rest of the community from upgrading their gear. I said that the content would be "nerfed" by more people having high level gear. This is true. If your DF group was half new people and you cleared it the first weekend, no one had better then i290 gear(and some people didnt even have that, as they didnt know the importance of doing the lvl 70 class quest first). If your DF group is half new people now, then the other half is likely to be between i300 and i310. In another couple weeks, the experienced half could passing i320. Eventually the other half of the group will be above whatever maximum sync they set for the fight, and they will just have the highest stats possible. Besides that, as time goes by new people will be less likely to be matched with other new people as people will continue to clear the content.

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Originally Posted by Frizze

You not completing this fight.....

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exactly. Eventually everyone will be plowing through this fight like nothing, carrying the dead body of the PUG to victory. It's a mini-prize for people who learn their stuff and find a good group: you get to win the game first.

I joined to help a clear party ("no rage quits") for this in party finder, was smooth one-shot and only 1 person tried a few times. :) If anyone is struggling with this fight still, I recommend making a party finder for it.

The fight is hard sure, but so was the base final boss of Heavensward when it originally came out. Now people can blitz right through it. Once the patches adding more MSQ come out adding higher level weapons and such it will probably be a cake walk.

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Originally Posted by hynaku

Needs to be nerfed a lot when healers keep leaving then party gets disbanded. Maybe they should remove it from main story and make it like ex primals. Its not right how it is wait 45 minutes to hour in duty finder just have party disbanded after 3 wipes then have to wait another 45 minutes to hour to get in again. Just so can finish story so can buy lvl 70 gear.

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I disagree. The only thing that makes this fight in anyway difficult is that extremely casual players refuse to learn the mechanics of the fight. Once you learn the mechanics this boss is a complete push over.

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Originally Posted by sorawild34

The fight is hard sure, but so was the base final boss of Heavensward when it originally came out. Now people can blitz right through it. Once the patches adding more MSQ come out adding higher level weapons and such it will probably be a cake walk.

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I'm pretty sure the base final boss of Heavensward was King Thordan and he was one of the easiest trials. You could literally fail every mechanic of Knights of the Round and still win.

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Originally Posted by Age_of_Oblivion

I think everyone that has already successfully cleared this fight and is saying it was a piece of cake should play it one more time, and see what a joyous cake walk it really is in the DF. I've had 7 groups now and still can't get healers to dodge tails.

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If your healers are dying to the tail hitting them, tell them to do their level 70 job quest because that shouldn't be one shorting anyone from full health. The only things that can one shot you with appropriate gear are falling off the stage, failing the stack marker mechanic, and standing in a water puddle during Judgement Bolt.

I find this to be a great duty. Yes it challenges you, but only with things you have already learned from previous fights. Quite a few of us will come across a group that steamrolls it no problem, and others who well... utilize the Vote Abandon function. Though the duty is pretty balanced and keeps you on your toes, so any nerf could destroy the core essence of that just to satisfy those who struggle.

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Originally Posted by Besame

Well, after quite a few attempts, this casual dungeon runner will never do it again IF I make it through. IMO, it is too difficult for a MSQ for more casual players and putting a flight aether behind it ain't cool.

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The duty is pretty easy. I've managed to one shot it with a group of friends on one character where I was even able to survive eating avoidable aoes and the tail as noct Ast. However, I tried using df with another character and it isn't going to happen. The playerbase is really bad in general. Pf is going to be your best option. Don't ever do this in df unless you like hurting yourself.

Having said that, whether or not Menagerie gets nerfed depends entirely on the clear rate. If enough players are clearing then it won't get nerfed. If enough players aren't then it'll get hammered. The major issue with it right now is that it blocks the new tomestone vendors which means new players aren't able to overgear it. It's also getting a really bad reputation and I've seen a lot of tanks and/or healers just leave as soon as they zone in. Even among friends, it's hard getting people to do it as they really don't like it at all or just had enough bad experiences with it that they ignore its existence.

I"d say a big issue is they need to restrict entrance to the Level Content MSQ dungeon and trial, making it required to completed X job you are on. There is no excuse for it, you need that last ability and you need that gear to be competent. What makes this a pain is having people enter the content with lv 60-69 gear on the left side when they have a job quest that will happily fill 6 of their slots with i290 gear.