Even Xeno thinks WAR needs some love.

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Originally Posted by eagledorf

DRK on the other hand is in a weird place. They are way worse at single-target DPS and way better at AoE DPS than the other two tanks and have much weaker cooldowns for everything but magic damage. I'm not sure if SE has a plan for that or (probably more likely) they've simply run out of ideas for DRK identity since they couldn't get the tanks right for all of HW and this is all they have left of where they started.

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I saw on youtube voxfall's susano SSS videos. You know, i'd like to think that guy's a credible source. ANYWAYS, he parsed 3k on drk, 3.1k on pld, and 3.2k on WAR. Sure, right there it appears like DRK's in last place, but you made the comment about PLD factoring in slashing to get higher than WAR dps. If you do the same, DRK also beats out WAR.

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Originally Posted by SargentToughie

In other words, PLD will come out massively ahead in 99% of content because not only will you have the slashing debuff, but PLD's rotation is also braindead easy to pull off and not massively punished by mechanics or stance swapping, like Warrior's.

Good balance!

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Typical blue icon dps mentality, if you think playing pld is braindead you are wrong, as you said war's rotation is rigid, that to is braindead as you soon or later got you muscle memory to do the rotation. The new pld has to consider party mitigation.

aggro>own mitigation>party mitigation> own dps rotation.

if I see a member is nearly dead and aoe damage is coming, I have to screw my " rotation " to cast intervention or clemency. I saw too many healers with tunnel vision problems.......

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Originally Posted by aqskerorokero

Typical blue icon dps mentality, if you think playing pld is braindead you are wrong, as you said war's rotation is rigid, that to is braindead as you soon or later got you muscle memory to do the rotation. The new pld has to consider party mitigation.

aggro>own mitigation>party mitigation> own dps rotation.

if I see a member is nearly dead and aoe damage is coming, I have to screw my " rotation " to cast intervention or clemency. I saw too many healers with tunnel vision problems.......

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Oh cool, so you need to actually take time to consider the other options that PLD has available that WAR doesn't when it comes to helping the party, before just hammering on the DPS. Thanks for... proving my point about current balance?

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Originally Posted by aqskerorokero

Typical blue icon dps mentality, if you think playing pld is braindead you are wrong, as you said war's rotation is rigid, that to is braindead as you soon or later got you muscle memory to do the rotation. The new pld has to consider party mitigation.

aggro>own mitigation>party mitigation> own dps rotation.

if I see a member is nearly dead and aoe damage is coming, I have to screw my " rotation " to cast intervention or clemency. I saw too many healers with tunnel vision problems.......

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LMAO war rotation is 10 times as complicated as plds, youre clueless. Source- my 314 war and pal. When i want to turn my brain off guess which one I play

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Originally Posted by Tankstuff

LMAO war rotation is 10 times as complicated as plds, youre clueless. Source- my 314 war and pal. When i want to turn my brain off guess which one I play

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Yeah Paladin is simple in its rotation, no denying that. But that's its design. Paladin with its support kit is for the players who rather than focusing on their own complex rotation are looking at the arena, checking the party for anyone with low health or vuln when the tough aoe is coming, deciding whether divine veil is needed now to save that caster or later cos the healers are on the ball with extra shielding where needed. Paladins focus on situational awareness in boss fights, so while they spam the holy button they can check who needs help, who needs cover, who's gonna survive and who's gonna need a hand mitigating because of a previously failed mechanic or a chunk of hp missing. It's not a playstyle that appeals to everyone, nor should it, people like playing differently. But in learning a fight or doing something complex for the first time, it's easier to react when you're not tunnel visioning your rotation and missing something, while still contributing decently to the party. Paladin is great for new tanks to learn how to position enemies, check mechanics and such while not having so much to do at once that they panic.

Sorry if rambling or doesn't make sense, had no sleep.

They just need to remove the gauge lost for stance dance that's all it need to get a fix

I dont understand PLD hate. Ive talked with several WAR and DRK's and they all say Paladin deserves some spotlight for a change. I have the distinct feeling that the only people complaining are the people who are upset they are no longer big ick DPS and Mitigation kings.

I don't see any Paladin hate and I don't think it's valid. I don't think any normal Warrior player would hate changes they made for Paladins.
Normal Warrior player is annoyed how SE messed perfectly working job. Of course there will be comparisons, because comparisons shows best how job can be done very well (vide PLD) and how can be broken very well (vide WAR).

Playing Warrior now is nothing alike playing it in HW, it's not fun, it's tedious and mundane. I suppose this is how Paladins felt in HW and that worries me even more, because they had to wait for whole expansion for fixes... :/

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Originally Posted by NewSinz

I dont understand PLD hate. Ive talked with several WAR and DRK's and they all say Paladin deserves some spotlight for a change. I have the distinct feeling that the only people complaining are the people who are upset they are no longer big ick DPS and Mitigation kings.

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you're not wrong in that pld finally got some love but did SE have to gimp the other two tanks just to make the point? I'm happy PLD has finally got its "identity" and "theme" of protecting the party and it looks really good. WAR lost its "raging berserk" and "mitigation through damage" identity while DRK lost its "magic tank" status. I miss that about war. Every time in 3.0 I pop berserk and blood bath and vengeance I feel like an angry beast just going to town on the enemy and every hit I deal and receive only makes me more angry. It's very similar to the lore of losing control and everyone around you is potentially at risk so you have to take care of yourself. I don't really get that with 4.0 war since the loss of bloodbath and the heal nerfs at 70 for IB and SP.

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Originally Posted by NewSinz

I dont understand PLD hate. Ive talked with several WAR and DRK's and they all say Paladin deserves some spotlight for a change. I have the distinct feeling that the only people complaining are the people who are upset they are no longer big ick DPS and Mitigation kings.

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What PLD hate?
The things I am pissed about is how my favorite tank is punished like hell for changing stance if you did not plan out the entire fight, how one of our new skills Shake it off is completely and utterly useless on paper and in the game, how another of our skills cost way more then it is worth, how our lvl70 skill share cooldown with unchained which make our old skill more or less pointless.
So no my anger is not for PLD, it is for the dev team who fucked up in an epic way. I would be less pissed if they came out and at least said they are looking into it, then again their silence speaks plenty.

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Originally Posted by Vejitta

I don't see any Paladin hate and I don't think it's valid. I don't think any normal Warrior player would hate changes they made for Paladins.
Normal Warrior player is annoyed how SE messed perfectly working job. Of course there will be comparisons, because comparisons shows best how job can be done very well (vide PLD) and how can be broken very well (vide WAR).

Playing Warrior now is nothing alike playing it in HW, it's not fun, it's tedious and mundane. I suppose this is how Paladins felt in HW and that worries me even more, because they had to wait for whole expansion for fixes... :/

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Honestly how can you consider this rotation mundane when HW rotation was literally spam storm's eye and 3 FC+fracture berserk? Have you tried to use infuriate at the start of a pull to maximize dps gains and pop berserk/inner release as soon as possible? After the opener are you making sure you are getting 4 fell cleaves in normal berserk and 6 FC's and a thrill of battle buffed upheaval in inner release berserk? The current warrior is way more complicated and complex than HW warrior ever was.

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Originally Posted by KorenA

I think drk is fine, change the dark passenger to the old version and revert blood price and we good I guess. War is just...ugh idk I que"d leveling rou and was like nope

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but DRK is fine. Now change things? youre ok with souleaters new changes? I just commented on a post about pld not using clemency like candy and seriously the other tanks got their sustainability reduced massively especially drk. It isnt balance at all

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Originally Posted by Taihaku

Honestly how can you consider this rotation mundane when HW rotation was literally spam storm's eye and 3 FC+fracture berserk? Have you tried to use infuriate at the start of a pull to maximize dps gains and pop berserk/inner release as soon as possible? After the opener are you making sure you are getting 4 fell cleaves in normal berserk and 6 FC's and a thrill of battle buffed upheaval in inner release berserk? The current warrior is way more complicated and complex than HW warrior ever was.

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Well, I agree. Mundane is a poor choice of word. Overcomplicated and unflexible are better.

I love the complexity of Warrior's Rotation.

I don't even mind that we have to work twice as hard for pretty much the same DPS.

What I do mind is that we can no longer Stance Dance and that Unchained is literally worthless.

What would we REALLY lose if they brought stance dancing back into it?

Defiance is already the worst tank stance. Our rotation is already way harder than PLD and DRK. So we can flow better between stances and enjoy the job. That can be Warrior's THING. Remove it from PLD too!

I'm just scared that I'll be asked to play PLD or DRK instead of warrior in this expansion. That elitiest pugs will refuse to let me play the job I love so dearly.
WAR is hands down my favorite tank. I love the new 4.X changes, even Shake it Off (of your hotbar) isn't that bad! It has its uses it's just niche and not really a raiding skill. THAT'S FINE.
Just let me stance dance.

Just give me back my flow TT.TT

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I'm just scared that I'll be asked to play PLD or DRK instead of warrior in this expansion. That elitiest pugs will refuse to let me play the job I love so dearly.

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I feel you. I remember a WAR leaving an A12s pug we had because we had a PLD. We hadn't even gone in and he refused to go unless we kick the PLD and get a DRK.
No one deserves that.

War was overpowered. Period. Us blm had to deal with 3.0 hell and now we're doing good, it's the ebb and flow of the game.

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Originally Posted by Genoreaper

War was overpowered. Period. Us blm had to deal with 3.0 hell and now we're doing good, it's the ebb and flow of the game.

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Flavor of the month is not good design for a MMO. There shouldn't be an ebb and flow at all. Just because war was OP in HW, doesn't mean it should be nerfed to the ground in SB.

Ebbs and flows shouldn't happen? Sounds boring. The only complaint is wars aren't master of all. They didn't care about any of this when paladins were pretty much left out because everyone went double war.

Warrior was god and you were fine with that months flavor.

Oh no a warrior isn't a dps and self healing god and might have to rely on full party. Le gasp

And they had to nerf it some rather than elevate all tanks to God status, otherwise content would be a bitch to create. Please tell me all about your incredible mmo with better setup.

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Originally Posted by Genoreaper

And they had to nerf it some rather than elevate all tanks to God status, otherwise content would be a bitch to create. Please tell me all about your incredible mmo with better setup.

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I never understand this type of comment, so because you haven't created something better than what you are expressing your opinion on you are not allowed to have an opinion on it or criticize it? I guess you've never seen a bad movie or eaten a bad meal, that actually sounds pretty awesome, I'm envious. It's not even like they are criticizing it without providing suggestions for fixes - there are some pretty good ideas in here as to how to improve the class. It's not about returning to God status, it's about the class being irrelevant and less fun to play. If the devs have a hard time balancing content because they look lazy or sloppy solutions to balancing classes then they only have themselves to blame. As someone who has been primarily a Paladin player for the duration of the time I've spent with the game and little interest in seriously playing Warrior - I still don't want to see the Warrior class be the "Paladin of SB". I'm not interested in getting even for being shunned for an entire expansion, I'm interested in the overall game being improved by having more of a variety in tanks - or even just more tanks total to help queue times. If your main point simply revolves around getting even - you really need to grow up.

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Originally Posted by Genoreaper

War was overpowered. Period. Us blm had to deal with 3.0 hell and now we're doing good, it's the ebb and flow of the game.

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WAR wasn't overpowered for most of HW: pretty much once DRK got the buffs they needed WAR stopped being "overpowered". More so PLD were underpowered. PLD needed buffs, and they got them, which is good.

The problem is that the other tanks, both of which were fine and doing well got nerfed way to hard. In every way. If PLD had just been buffed, they would now be in line with HW tanks. And we would have a good tank meta.

That is what the tanks want. They dont want X and Y to be above Z (how things were). They dont want Z being the only good tank while X and Y are notably worse (how things are now). They want X, Y, and Z to all have a place.

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Originally Posted by Tila

WAR wasn't overpowered for most of HW: pretty much once DRK got the buffs they needed WAR stopped being "overpowered". More so PLD were underpowered. PLD needed buffs, and they got them, which is good.

The problem is that the other tanks, both of which were fine and doing well got nerfed way to hard. In every way. If PLD had just been buffed, they would now be in line with HW tanks. And we would have a good tank meta.

That is what the tanks want. They dont want X and Y to be above Z (how things were). They dont want Z being the only good tank while X and Y are notably worse (how things are now). They want X, Y, and Z to all have a place.

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This, basically. Once drk got buffed they were just as strong as war, and was the highest dps MT while also having the best mitigation for the current content. I switched to drk fulltime to MT. It was more a case of pld being underpowered, and only wars having slashing debuff.