Anyone else feeling a hit to SCH?

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Originally Posted by VraeliaValkyria

10% chance to proc a reduction CD of Aetherflow is not my way of thinking they are making SCH better. Or anything else. When 10% is a lower chance than even trying to proc a Freecure on WHM. Giving us more stacks, would be the best way to go about this. It is LOOOOOOOOOOOOOONG over due.

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According the tooltips shown in the media release, it's actually a 20% chance to reduce the CD on Aetherflow by 10 seconds each time you use an action that consumes stacks.

This isn't to say that it's necessarily going to be as nice as some of us would want it to be since it's still an RNG-dependent mechanic, but it has the potential to make a difference.

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Originally Posted by Cynfael

Excogitation is interesting, as you say, for being a set-it-and-forget-it Lustrate (extra 50 potency is something, but obviously not a huge difference). I'm curious whether or not the Excogitation status persists indefinitely until the <50% HP trigger is met; the tooltip I saw showed the recast on the ability, but not the buff timer (if any). This is pretty important to the utility and efficiency of the skill since allowing Excog to remain in effect until needed lets the SCH effectively bank the required Aetherflow expenditure to a modest extent.

I'd prefer that Excog not require Aetherflow stacks since it competes with Energy Drain, Lustrate, and Indom(Soil is so situational that I don't think it deserves much mention as a competing skill), but with a 60-second recast, you can't exactly spam it, anyway. The ability to expend and replenish Aetherflow stacks like this before they are needed again does appeal, as does the potential for ease of split healing during intense mechanics, but I'm probably not as excited about this skill as I should be. It's mechanically sound and will definitely get use, so I can't complain in earnest, but it's hard not to look at either SCH or WHM and draw an unfavorable comparison to what AST has in store.

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From those who played the early build, the Excogitation buff only lasts 30 seconds, so you still have to time when you use it.

So... I don't really play scholar but I might play it more in Stormblood mainly because my disdain at scholar was fumbling with cleric stance and the fairy and what not... but... as an odd sort of idea...

What if Selene had some sort of ability that triggered an AoE DoT sort of like Aero III (or if the scholar had a casted ability of the same nature) and as a side effect, Selene would become Eos.
Eos would have a similar heal/regen ability that would then turn her into Selene (naturally this could be the same scholar ability with a different effect because Eos was out not Selene).

Was really hoping for a change to dissipation, I mean really... I've actually used this skill more as a missclick than on purpose... extremely situational... not only that but they made our fairy even more useful out in the field with the fey union thing not to mention we are getting the role skill Largesse that buffs healing so yeah. Think if anything it should be given an auto re-summon, I'm pretty sure summoners get their summons back after Bahamut so why in the world do sch still need to recast summon if an auto re-summon mechanic is possible? DX

Yep, 2.0 Scholar was very good.
3.0 Scholar was slighty better (not a lot excited though : emergency tactics and Dissipation were bad designed and are not modified for 4.0...)
4.0 Scholar is just not good enough for me to stay in the top compo (Chain Stratagem is the only spell which can decide his future...).
But anyways, it's become less interesting to play SCH than AST which gain more cards management, earthly star to plan and a big shield which is equivalent to 3.75 embrace from fairy.

I main Scholar, and honestly I don't understand why they keep buffing Noct shields but do NOTHING of the sort for Adlo/Succor.

There's already so many people who shit on Scholars for being useless, because AST can shield too and "Noct is better anyway"; And this 300% shield buff to AST definitely feeds them even more bullets to fire at us. I don't think this is what Square intended, but ultimately, it's what's gonna happen. Sure, not everyone is like that (thank god for common sense), but in my personal experience, it is very well out there.

I have been insulted, told I am useless and uneeded; Duck, I have been told to kill myself by Noct!ASTs when I was on my SCH and requested Diurnal because shields don't stack, because "Noct shields are better so shut up".

I play AST a lot. I love it. It's fun. But it did not need ANOTHER Noct buff. At least, not from an 3.x standpoint.

If 4.x content will really be so healing intensive as to justify 300% potency shields, then tell me, why didn't SCH get a buff to their shields too? Why only buff AST?

Sure we FINALLY get that MND buff (about trucking time), but aren't shields one of the main mechanics of the Scholar? Wasn't that a thing once? AST was designed to fill a nieche; Regen like a WHM when a co-SCH is there, and shields like a SCH when a co-WHM was. And it filled that role just fine.

Now, it feels like Square is trying to make AST the main shield healers, for whatever reason.

Or maybe they just... Forgot about SCH in that department.

Seriously, at least give our shields the same potency as Noct shields? Give us the same kind of buff, so that, you know, we can actually stand a chance in our own main healing style?

Or just stop giving AST buffs that it does not need.

Stop fixing things that aren't broken.

This is the main-issue I have; I don't know enough about the new abilities to judge them, I have to play it to actually get an opinion. As for the DPS nerf, I personally don't care about my DPS as a healer (although I do stance-dancing and DPS frequently), so I'm not paying much attention to that right now. But that's another can of worms I do not feel like opening now. Or ever.

They also missed a chance to have a skill increase heal crit rate, something like that would of been great for a sch, not to mention it could synergized with whm's abilties (even though those mechanics are pretty lousy) but yeah, fay union could of done something like that to its tethered person, or maybe chain stratagem if you used it on a party member instead of a mob.

Many are considering the AST/AST combo for long term balance up time and their huge shields and heals. They told us in 3.0 they never wanted this to happen... well, it's no longer 3.0 anymore so maybe they want this in 4.0?

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Originally Posted by Hanayumi

... or maybe chain stratagem if you used it on a party member instead of a mob.

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I would definitely sulk a little less if Chain could be used on party members (or faerie!!). Deploying a critical Adlo is one of the most satisfying things in this game.

Also can we talk about why AST gets a flat 15% healing potency from being in a stance? There is never a time they are NOT in one or the other, and all their big heal potencies are the same as WHM now so not really sure why this was necessary. I liked having SS on diurnal and potency on noct.

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Originally Posted by Aramina

Fairy is nerfed though, so we won't have as many free GCDs by virtue of having to control more of the healing ourselves. Will we still be "free'er" than other healers? Obviously, but I don't know if those extra GCDs would be more beneficial than a double AST combo. NOTE: I am not in any way worried about SCH. Those were just my thoughts. :)

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You mean the -50 embrace potency? That is likely negated by the improved Mind and Mend trait buffs to Scholar, which now adds 10% and 30% healing buff to the fairy respectfully, along with gear treadmill over time. Regardless, the other jobs have to manually heal as a first-line of defense, and fairy cool downs haven't changed one bit. Whispering Dawn just got a bit more powerful.

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Originally Posted by technole

You mean the -50 embrace potency? That is likely negated by the improved Mind and Mend trait buffs to Scholar, which now adds 10% and 30% healing buff to the fairy respectfully, along with gear treadmill over time. Regardless, the other jobs have to manually heal as a first-line of defense, and fairy cool downs haven't changed one bit. Whispering Dawn just got a bit more powerful.

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Current trait is already 30% to the fairy so we gain nothing there. Its a flat out nerf. Gameplay videos show embrace doing about 15-20% less per cast compared to now and that's at level 64. Regen also gains potency with gear treadmill so that point is moot as an attack on the fairy.

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Originally Posted by MsTanya

Current trait is already 30% to the fairy so we gain nothing there. Its a flat out nerf. Gameplay videos show embrace doing about 15-20% less per cast compared to now and that's at level 64. Regen also gains potency with gear treadmill so that point is moot as an attack on the fairy.

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You are correct the current one is 30%, this trait will still append going forward with levels as it scales. Also, forgot to mention SCH gets a new trait in 4.0 that doesn't exist today, Enhanced Mind III. Today SCH has a -6 MND/+6 INT difference to the other healers because of Enhanced INT II, now SCH gets +24 of new MND right out of the gate at level 60 in SB.

Anytime they drastically increase HP levels they have to lower the fairy healing otherwise the auto-healing percentage just gets higher. Last time we got a DET nerf that also affected the fairy healing, this time it's just flat potency and assuming no more DET nerfs it shouldn't be a large effect going to level 70. We were talking very subject at the beginning of HW how much we likely couldn't depend on embrace as well and look where we are now. Still talking about casual content and even savage being healed mostly through Embrace and Whispering Dawn.

I've been a SCH main since 2.0 and have raided all of coil, Gordias, Midas, and the creator as such, but I will not be raiding or going through msq as one in Stormblood. While the class isn't as bad off as WHM is, it's also losing a lot of what I've found fun in playing as one and I'm not going to main a class that I don't find fun anymore. The aoe nerfs (and the thought of broil spamming to replace the dot fillers we lost, and don't get me started on shadow flare), the fact that AST shields better than ours now and for cheaper mp cost...yeah I'm done. The new toys they are offering aren't enough for me to stay as one. I'll be an AST main come the expansion.

While I'm just offering my piece here for SE to understand why I'm doing this, the only thing they will ultimately understand is numbers, so when SCH's and WHM's are a dying breed in content like the AST's were in the early Alex days, then maybe some changes will come about for them. I'm really not digging the path they are taking for stormblood though. Jobs are losing their identities in favor of more homogenization and its killing the love people once had for the jobs they enjoy playing.

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Originally Posted by Its_Elodie

... I'm not going to main a class that I don't find fun anymore. The new toys they are offering aren't enough for me to stay as one. I'll be an AST main come the expansion.

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^ This.

To be honest with you, as long as SCH could keep its current playstyle, I wouldn't give a heck about whether it got a single new skill in the expansion. The current SCH is fun, giving a unique playstyle that feels fluid and smooth and engaging. There's always something you can do with your time as a SCH due to the 20% MP Aetherflow, which pretty much means you can always be DPSing, healing, or shielding. Now they want to nerf our MP gain, meaning we can't DPS as much as we used to, they're nerfing the fairy so we have less freedom to DPS as we please, our shields are inferior to the "hybrid" healer, and Chain Stratagem, while nice, is turning out to be a crit boost on party members and not a flat percent gain. Add onto that our huge MP cost, the total gutting of our AOE damage, and Shadow Flare being on CD?

Yeah, no. SCH looks no fun anymore. AST will be my go-to healer in 4.0 unless/until changes are made, I guess.

P.S. This is also why I feel awful for WHM mains. I feel like WHM is going to be less fun to play as a whole and force players into a playstyle that isn't even efficient in hopes of gaining lilies. At least, that seems to be the method of playing WHM that SE is encouraging.

i dislike the new fairy tether. I don't see why they have to restrict the fairy from not being able to use any of their other abilities just because they are focused on healing the tank, like i would understand this if regular dungeons become really hard and you know you have to focus heal the tank which will most likely not be the case. they should have made the fairy go into the obey command for this so that during its tether you as the sch have to manually use the skills at the right time.
i also do agree that these nerfs to the sch class are lame. every time i've healed with a whm or an astro im always jealous of the damn huge heals they get but then i get reminded of a crit adlo but now an astro taking that away from sch is like wtf?

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Originally Posted by Deviru

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I've friends that play SCH, so i looked into the tool tips, Chain Stratagem isn't applied to the party member, but a Mob. Not much of a consolation, i suppose, but it is a small thing to note.

Zzz they've made SCH just as boring as WHM now. 2 DoTs and a nuke is not engaging or what any SCH main is used to. Pair that with the removal of Cleric Stance and I'm struggling to find reasons to stick with this job. It's a shame though, there are an overwhelming majority of people who liked these changes that dumbed down the healer role, so I can only expect it'll get even more basic in 5.0. Dx

Nerfing is never fixing the issue at hand, it simply means they made poor design choices ....
I have never healed all too much but was sch and then for the last few patches had switched to Astro. My friend was excited (who has always mained sch) but after i told him about sch nerfs he is not so happy now

I played scholar purely because its DPS mechanics were nearly as engaging as an actual DPS class, especially with the upkeep of multiple DoTs and shadowflare. By comparison the other healer classes were incredibly boring. That with the added pressure of having to spot heal and stance-dance made the class super engaging and fun, and we lost all of it and our ability to speed-up dungeons too. Two DoTs and mashing a nuke spell isn't fun gameplay. On an almost related note Summoner, which was my caster of choice, took the exact same hit. Why define one(two) of the classes as the DoT Caster and then prune its DoTs for a flashier nuke? I feel like not just the playstyle but the identity of the class(es) is kind of underfire- even more so with Astrologian now the better shield-er too.

My only reprieve is that Broil II is the coolest looking spell in the game, which is an even bigger shame now that I think about it- since its going to be my most common GCD for the class it will lose its awe-factor in a hurry.

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Originally Posted by LegoTechnic

SCH was never OP, it was unique.

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Ehm, excuse me but that's not true.

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Originally Posted by VraeliaValkyria

And Shadow Flare supposedly took a hit as well.

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Because it's now off the GCD the Shadow Flare change is actually a dps boost. It's gone from 600 potency per minute to 250, but it's also freed up 2 GCDs which you can use on Broil II so it's an 80 potency gain.

It's a slight AoE nerf but if you were refreshing shadow flare for the AoE then your party has other problems.

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Originally Posted by Arcana

Ehm, excuse me but that's not true.

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SCH were considered OP maybe in ARR, but when HW was released they evened out what made them considered OP, without changing their core gameplay. The Devs just indicated that throughout HW SCH was considered the in demand healer because of its utility.

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Originally Posted by Arcana

Ehm, excuse me but that's not true.

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I guess before I go further I should specify they were never OP as in "over-powered". There was no content you couldn't do without a SCH save progression raiding, and that same content couldn't be done with double-SCH due to their lack of consistent large heals. And I'm speaking of low-ilvl progression raiding, because as gear increases restrictions on what healers you bring ease off.

If you're wanting to argue that they were "over-played", then I won't refute that. They had a strong off-healer niche with lots of powerful ogcd abilities and their competitors were shallow for the same role, but what can you expect when AST played like a clone of WHM and for much of HW had crippling mana issues if it tried to DPS like a SCH? However SCH DPS was actually quite lacking comparatively whenever burst was required with the weakest direct damage spell available, making them the worst DPS contributor during most add phases (since they rarely lived long enough for dots to tick fully). They excelled in sustained damage both because dots tick away while you're otherwise busy, but also because aetherize mana return and stack abilities allowed to do so safely without running out of juice, a luxury long envied by WHM/AST. That didn't make them overpowered as they have their fair share of weaknesses, but it certainly gave them a guaranteed raid spot.

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Originally Posted by Its_Elodie

I've been a SCH main since 2.0 and have raided all of coil, Gordias, Midas, and the creator as such, but I will not be raiding or going through msq as one in Stormblood.

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You haven't even played it yet lol.

Talk about biting off your nose to spite your face.

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Originally Posted by LegoTechnic

I guess before I go further I should specify they were never OP as in "over-powered".

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They have been OP for all of ARR and 90% of HW, take off the WAR goggles.

SCH has been OP for years now. Good to see them getting nerfed.

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Originally Posted by AlexanderThorolund

You haven't even played it yet lol.

Talk about biting off your nose to spite your face.

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Some people are capable of reading information and understanding its meaning, contextualising that information and forming opinions based on the outcome.

Shocker, I know.


We haven't seen final numbers yet so for all we know scholars could be the strongest healers around but mechanically they seem worse. However, it's a giant bugbear of mine when people say "just wait till you've tried it!" It's dumb. We grow up as humans learning from past experiences and applying them to information to form expectations on future outcomes. They are sometimes wrong, but they are far more often right.

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Originally Posted by Alkimi

Because it's now off the GCD the Shadow Flare change is actually a dps boost. It's gone from 500 potency per minute to 250, but it's also freed up 2 GCDs which you can use on Broil II so it's a 210 potency gain plus saving 1 second of cast time.

It's a slight AoE nerf but if you were refreshing shadow flare for the AoE then your party has other problems.

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Fixed that for you. I'm actually super excited for the SCH changes. While it's DPS rotation is simplified, being able to maximize it's healing toolkit is going to make it really fun. I do wish we had more options for weaving other skills though. That is going to make it feel a bit clunky.

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For the fairy healing, I wouldn't worry too much about it. The Fairy has always had negative scaling with levelling. Once we are in level 70 gear it will work itself out.

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Originally Posted by Valknut

They have been OP for all of ARR and 90% of HW, take off the WAR goggles.

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They really were. Like being able to cast Lustrate while in Clerics, was incredibly OP. It's really hard for the others healers to compete with the Fairy. I'm glad they are fleshing out the class with more healing tools and adding more strength to the Fairy.

The thing about ASTNoct shields being stronger, I don't feel this is going to become a balancing issue. All that really matters at the end of the day is that SCH shields are strong enough to keep people alive. In the case of Tank busters, sure the AST shield has the potential to keep a tank alive with say 2k extra HP over a SCH Adlo, but given proper mitigation a tank should never drop that far. But the NoctAST does need some sort of strength to make it comparable to SCH with Fairy, so if all that means is stronger shields for the AST so my Fairy doesn't get the nerf bat I could care less.

On one hand I really don't like that SCH has had to cede part of its identity to AST's Nocturnal Sect, which looks to be the definitive barrier healer going forward.

On the other, yes, the faerie makes a huge difference in healing output and split-target flexibility, and Noct AST needed either to have very powerful shielding or to have a supplementary source of healing.

It seems like the idea with 4.0 was to further reward SCHs for planning ahead (Excogitation), to give them increased party synergy (Chain Stratagem), and to build on their uniqueness as the healing pet class (Fey Union). We'll see how it goes.

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Originally Posted by Judge_Xero

ASTNoct shields being stronger // But the NoctAST does need some sort of strength to make it comparable to SCH with Fairy.

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Why does no one else see this, that fairy isn't some freebie. It is taking some of SCH's class power an dividing it, and doing so in a more powerful way then has ever been done in an MMO. I cannot think for the life of me when a pet class has been regarded as legit OP in large scale all the way to small scale parties plus solo content. FFXI summoners/beast masters/puppet masters and WOW hunters would have killed for this!

This SCH needs the best shields arguement is flawed, you already have the best pet in the game, with the best HoT, and currently the best mana management. In what world does this some how justify having better shields then AST which brings cards/heals. SCH has utility in spades, no it isn't the god like Expanded Balance, but it is reliable and their at the press of a non RNG dependant button.

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Originally Posted by Furious

Some people are capable of reading information and understanding its meaning, contextualising that information and forming opinions based on the outcome.

Shocker, I know.


We haven't seen final numbers yet so for all we know scholars could be the strongest healers around but mechanically they seem worse. However, it's a giant bugbear of mine when people say "just wait till you've tried it!" It's dumb. We grow up as humans learning from past experiences and applying them to information to form expectations on future outcomes. They are sometimes wrong, but they are far more often right.

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You're the kind of people Yoshida was talking about when he said calm down.

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Originally Posted by Valknut

*stuff*

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Except the faerie technically got nerfed in more than one way. Potency reduction, the fact that any healer can now heal while DPSing and SCH seems to be the only one with base heal potencies not being increased (so some could say that the fairy heals are only making up for that loss of raw heal potency). From what we've seen so far, it also seems like they'll have the worst MP management in 4.0 and their utility is definitely not comparable to AST.

Pair all that with the fact that they've also dumbed down the job to WHM levels in terms of DPS, and I'd definitely agree SCH has taken a huge hit. Having weaker shields than a 'hybrid' job makes no sense, and even our one unique thing (faerie) got nerfed. We're the only healer job to actually get nerfed. But we'll see what it's like first and if it all is true, maybe we'll get some attention once the WHMs are done crying. :'D

So what's the deal with Strategem? It's from 20 percent to 15 percent. Is it even more terrible or will it in fact just be an internal release? Also 120 second cooldown instead of 90 seconds

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Originally Posted by Starflake

So what's the deal with Strategem? It's from 20 percent to 15 percent. Is it even more terrible or will it in fact just be an internal release? Also 120 second cooldown instead of 90 seconds

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Yeah it's been nerfed. :'D As has Fey Illumination, gone down to 10%. And they didn't buff Bane even slightly. :'D

Edit: Also, according to the data mining (if I'm reading it correctly) AST still keeps a 15% heal boost in Noct Stance. :'D

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Originally Posted by Kabzy

Yeah it's been nerfed. :'D As has Fey Illumination, gone down to 10%. And they didn't buff Bane even slightly. :'D

Edit: Also, according to the data mining (if I'm reading it correctly) AST still keeps a 15% heal boost in Noct Stance. :'D

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If Stategem is in fact only a 2% crit increase, then they have crapped all over SCH and I actually feel more compelled to main WHM. I mean, how sad is that?

Yeah scholar is looking nearly completely gutted, trash tier in dungeons and brings 2% crit to the raid scene along with nerfed fairy potency terrible mp management and cemented worst raw healing of the three. I'm sure theres more I'm forgetting to mention I'm kinda in shock right now. No idea what they were thinking, idk if I should ride it out and pray for buffs pre omega or just job hop at this point it feels like sch is the new 3.0 astro, except with no hope of buffs due to community stigma and the whines of its OP pls nerf.

Looking at the final numbers, it appears a WHM using nothing but Assize will do better AoE than a SCH utilizing their entire AoE kit provided they maintain lillies (depending a bit on the size of the pull).

I'm not going to mince words, that is garbage. The development team should be deeply and personally shamed to have published this expansion with such thoughtless healer design. Even assuming they gate dungeons so you can't AoE in them anymore, unless they delete the entire game before 4.0 this is amateur.

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Originally Posted by MsTanya

Yeah scholar is looking nearly completely gutted, trash tier in dungeons and brings 2% crit to the raid scene along with nerfed fairy potency terrible mp management and cemented worst raw healing of the three. I'm sure theres more I'm forgetting to mention I'm kinda in shock right now. No idea what they were thinking, idk if I should ride it out and pray for buffs pre omega or just job hop at this point it feels like sch is the new 3.0 astro, except with no hope of buffs due to community stigma and the whines of its OP pls nerf.

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I'll be waiting until I hit savage mode before I make a say on how we are. One thing I do have to say though, people who say SCH is OP never played SCH at endgame.

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Originally Posted by eagledorf

Looking at the final numbers, it appears a WHM using nothing but Assize will do better AoE than a SCH utilizing their entire AoE kit provided they maintain lillies (depending a bit on the size of the pull).

I'm not going to mince words, that is garbage. The development team should be deeply and personally shamed to have published this expansion with such thoughtless healer design. Even assuming they gate dungeons so you can't AoE in them anymore, unless they delete the entire game before 4.0 this is amateur.

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What's worse is they didn't add a tank or heals to SB because they "Needed to work on existing tanks and heals" If this is their idea of good work I don't know if I can stay subscribed.