New Pug

lol sorry...

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Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

I never said it wasn't viable to bring THMs to moogle or to beat Moogle with them. If most certainly is.

All I am saying is, in response to your assessment of THM DPS in the Moogle fight, is that it does not and cannot match up to the DPS of a competent ARC. Also, an exclusively nuking CNJ can in fact surpass the DPS of a THM due to their abundant MP recovery options. Both these points are widely accepted at this point. Now if you believe otherwise, I invite you to show some parse results.

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Did you click on the link i provided? Obviously not. If you cant even read what I post, then what is the point...

How about you provide some parse results since I have...

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Originally Posted by CircusMidget

melee dps can be difficult because of server lag and moogles constantly running in circles. It tells you out of range, so you actually have to run infront of the moogles.

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The reason they run around most of the time is because of hate switching between the archers. If you go full melee, the moogles stick to the tank and those who you pick off don't run around because everyone is in their range.

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Originally Posted by Meatdawg

Did you click on the link i provided? Obviously not. If you cant even read what I post, then what is the point...

How about you provide some parse results since I have...

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Apologies, I was posting through my phone at that time. Looking at it now, while I will admit those numbers are impressive for a THM they are rather inflated. Looking at the DPS values I see 45 and 25. The 25 is quite low as expected, and the 45 I will consider a THM performing to the best of their ability in the Moogle fight. The Archer up there with 57 is the measure of a competent one and as you can see their DPS ceiling is well above a THM.

To reiterate, I do not mean to say THM is not viable. I mean to say the DPS ceiling of a THM is quite noticeably below that of an ARC for the Moogle fight, simply due to the mechanics of the fight. That parse only shows what I've been saying with the two Archers on top.

Again, this is a PGL thread and thus I will stop contributing to this off-topic discussion at this point.

Pug> thm here :P

What are you guys using Blindside with? Simian is multi hit so that's a bit of a waste. Howling Fist loses side combo's bonus damage but I'm not sure if that is eclipsed/evened by Blindside.

So that leaves, what, Pounce and Demolish?

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Originally Posted by SeraviEdalborez

What are you guys using Blindside with? Simian is multi hit so that's a bit of a waste. Howling Fist loses side combo's bonus damage but I'm not sure if that is eclipsed/evened by Blindside.

So that leaves, what, Pounce and Demolish?

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Howling Fist gets increased accuracy from the side, not increased damage. So using it from behind doesn't have any disadvantage. I've found it to be accurate in Full Party, and outside of Full Party I just use Hawk's Eye coupled with Blindside.

EDIT: Never mind I think I understand what you meant now. Howling Fist, on it's own, has increased accuracy when executed from the side. It receives a combo bonus if used in a combo following Punce > Demolish. The combo bonus is increased damage. You get the combo bonus regardless of what direction you do Howling Fist from because it's in a combo. The direction of Howling Fist would matter if there was a 4th WS in the combo because then you would have to fulfill the directional condition of Howling Fist for the Combo Bonus on said 4th skill.

Nah. I think you have to do it from the side for combo damage bonus. You get the purple combo "spark" around yourself even on an ender WS.

Hm I was going to use Goring Blade as an example, but then that doesn't even do Bleed unless you're at the rear anyways. Maybe I'm wrong.

Easiest way to confirm would be raw Howling Fist vs side-combo HF, vs rear-combo HF.

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Originally Posted by SeraviEdalborez

Nah. I think you have to do it from the side for combo damage bonus. You get the purple combo "spark" around yourself even on an ender WS.

Hm I was going to use Goring Blade as an example, but then that doesn't even do Bleed unless you're at the rear anyways. Maybe I'm wrong.

Easiest way to confirm would be raw Howling Fist vs side-combo HF, vs rear-combo HF.

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Alright... let me explain this as thoroughly as I can.

The first WS in any given WS combo never has a Combo Bonus. This is because they are the first and they do not combo following anything.

Any subsequent WS will have properties of their own as well as a Combo Bonus that is only received if all of the conditions of the previous WS are met and the combo is successful.

So in the example of Pounce > Demolish > Howling Fist:

If you use Pounce from behind the enemy you Stun it and because you fulfilled this condition, Demolish will get a purple ring around it signifying that it is available to be used as part of the combo. Demolish has a Combo Bonus of disabling an effect on the mob. This effect works because the conditions of Pounce were fulfilled, making Demolish part of a combo. Demolish does not have any directional conditions of it's own, so simply using it gives Howling Fist a purple ring, unlocking it for the combo. Having unlocked Howling Fist for a combo means you receive the combo bonus of Howling Fist. Howling Fist however also has a directional condition. This condition is irrelevant as far as combos go, however, because Howling Fist is the last skill in the sequence.

The purple spark effects are visually there to signify that the WS was used as part of a combo and its TP cost was waived, not because you met all of its conditions. That is why you don't get a purple effect on the first WS, even if you do it right.

I get that. but there are no 4th tier WS so I doubted that the 3rd set of combo sparks were pointless.
Seriously I'll just run a small test sample. Unless you have already done so in which case I will defer to you.

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Originally Posted by SeraviEdalborez

I get that. but there are no 4th tier WS so I doubted that the 3rd set of combo sparks were pointless.
Seriously I'll just run a small test sample. Unless you have already done so in which case I will defer to you.

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Testing regarding Combo Bonuses? Yes, I have.

The sparks aren't pointless. They denote that the skill was used as part of a combo. That's why the first one doesn't get any sparks.

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Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

Howling Fist gets increased accuracy from the side, not increased damage. So using it from behind doesn't have any disadvantage.

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I couldn't believe this, so I had to try it myself. Turns out it's true. Howling Fist gets ZERO damage bonus from attacking the side. I will be using Blinside with this from now on.

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Originally Posted by silverdragontyr

I couldn't believe this, so I had to try it myself. Turns out it's true. Howling Fist gets ZERO damage bonus from attacking the side. I will be using Blinside with this from now on.

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Just some basic understanding of the combo system, really. I can understand how it can be confusing/misleading though. In any case, thanks for the confirmation.

I didn't even have any idea that Howling Fist combo had a +dmg bonus in side or acc bonus from attacking from side... ._. Always just use it with Keen Flurry and Blindside and works just fine, have Help text turned off so can't see descriptions either >.<
I should test some more stuff with PGL, especially the INT/STR, still wondering if I should use INT or STR rings to boost dmg. =(

Apologies for my disbelief then. Every other WS on every other class required correct facing for boosted effects due to the combo's effect and the WS's innate effect being the same; Howling Fist is one of the only oddballs, seemed like it should have had to be done from the side. Pretty ambiguous on SE's part.

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Originally Posted by SeraviEdalborez

Apologies for my disbelief then. Every other WS on every other class required correct facing for boosted effects due to the combo's effect and the WS's innate effect being the same; Howling Fist is one of the only oddballs, seemed like it should have had to be done from the side. Pretty ambiguous on SE's part.

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Actually... all combos work the same. It's quite clearly explained in the patch notes section with mock-up weapon skills and their bonuses.

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Originally Posted by ShadowCadja

I should test some more stuff with PGL, especially the INT/STR, still wondering if I should use INT or STR rings to boost dmg. =(

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Well, according to [this test], STR gives more raw dmg per point than INT, but INT's effect on Blindside wasn't tested.

You can't put INT/STR everywhere, so just put STR where you can and INT where you can't. Blindside boosts only one skill, usually Howling Fist, but other than that, STR seems to be worth more to me.

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Originally Posted by SeraviEdalborez

Apologies for my disbelief then. Every other WS on every other class required correct facing for boosted effects due to the combo's effect

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Actually, no. You have to fulfill all the conditions to activate the next skill in a combo chain, so basically:

hit Pummel from the front -> Concussive Blow combo condition met -> Concussive blow has damage bonus when executed -> execute from left/right to activate Simian Thrash OR from anywhere else.

Concussive Blow still has dmg bonus because it's condition was already met, but it's execution doesn't activate Simian Thrash, because you didn't meet the conditions!

I hope i'm making sense lol

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Originally Posted by Meleena

So from gear perspective what will you guys wear on head? The Maat's cap or Silver Tricorn +1 Melded with Inteligence?
Ill propably go with both.

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I would say the tricorne, provided you have a good int materia on it, I have both, but tend to favor the tricorne on my pug due to the +17 int materia on it

After my own testing I would go with Int materia. I use crowns for the Element potency. Atm I have one at +25, and I don't think the +3 Str of the Tricorne is going to do more then +9 Potency. At most they balance, and crowns are easier to multi-meld. I keep having a friend go for x2/3 melds. I had him do a III/IV Int which was +28. He made the mistake of telling me adding another IV gave it a 10% chance. I told him to go, and while it broke, and I cried, it gave me the confidence to keep going until I get the fabled +50 Int crown.

Isn't been tested elemental potency on fists ? They seems to add nothing

Single melding just weapon and feet with good element materia gives +44-60. It works, just +9 alone won't do much. I also have +22 on my shoes. I have been trying to collect more to go for higher binds, but the damn materia is so rare and expensive, on top of a high stat spread I haven't had the courage to haha.

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Originally Posted by silverdragontyr

Single melding just weapon and feet with good element materia gives +44-60. It works, just +9 alone won't do much. I also have +22 on my shoes. I have been trying to collect more to go for higher binds, but the damn materia is so rare and expensive, on top of a high stat spread I haven't had the courage to haha.

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I would be very interested in seeing some testing parse results to show the effect of element materia on PGL stances. At this point it is being widely accepted that they don't effect damage output, despite original design.

One of the biggest problems is 1. Finding a control target, and 2. Getting the amount needed. In other tests for example main stat, we don't see much of a change until almost 20+ or more. A max materia and a little over. I have an EarthIII +20, but I kind of want to save that for a III/IV double attempt. I'm just not rich and getting an Element PotencyIV otherwise is very hard. I think I am 1/10-11 now of getting an element materia off a Pgl weapon. For a control target, I would use a GC enemy, that is weak to that element. A Crab for fire, or a snurble for earth, and elementals for all. Because of their weakness, they would suffer the highest damage, and higher damage would give us a better idea if and how much it's affecting damage.

Posting in a PGL thread.

To anyone wondering whether or not to use STR or INT: use STR. Your enhanced fists benefit from STR and INT the same way as your regular fists.

For practical gear comparison, consider 1 point of STR equal to 1.75 points of INT. Barring diminishing returns or a stat cap, STR is always the right choice. Only the head slot is particularly contested because PGL can stick INT up there; this makes a cavalier's hat or silver tricorne with INT materia our best non-r/ex option. However, if you have a paragon's crown, you would need multiple INT materia to create a hat superior to that.

Regarding potency materia, the only viable slot is feet. Weapon DMG is second biggest factor (next to level difference) when calculating damage output--magicked fists or not--so it would make little sense to swap out Ifrit/Mogfists for inferior weapon DMG + magic potency.

The feet slot is sorely lacking in the DD department, at least for now. If 1.21 has good r/ex options (STR, INT, ATK, some useful AF gear), potency materia will be a hard sell--assuming it does anything at all.

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Originally Posted by Almalexia

Posting in a PGL thread.

To anyone wondering whether or not to use STR or INT: use STR. Your enhanced fists benefit from STR and INT the same way as your regular fists.

For practical gear comparison, consider 1 point of STR equal to 1.75 points of INT. Barring diminishing returns or a stat cap, STR is always the right choice. Only the head slot is particularly contested because PGL can stick INT up there; this makes a cavalier's hat or silver tricorne with INT materia our best non-r/ex option. However, if you have a paragon's crown, you would need multiple INT materia to create a hat superior to that.

Regarding potency materia, the only viable slot is feet. Weapon DMG is second biggest factor (next to level difference) when calculating damage output--magicked fists or not--so it would make little sense to swap out Ifrit/Mogfists for inferior weapon DMG + magic potency.

The feet slot is sorely lacking in the DD department, at least for now. If 1.21 has good r/ex options (STR, INT, ATK, some useful AF gear), potency materia will be a hard sell--assuming it does anything at all.

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Thanks for the input. As always, a parse detailing testing that shows that STR:INT ratio is 1:1.75 for the same effect would be appreciated.

I did post a link to Almalexia's parse results on last page...

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Originally Posted by Soukyuu

I did post a link to Almalexia's parse results on last page...

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Apologies. Completely missed that tiny red word - link lol

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Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

Apologies. Completely missed that tiny red word - link lol

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I guess I should revert to adding brackets to [linked] words :P