I'm calling it the Epidemic. (This is a rant, if you dont wanna hear it, don't click)

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Originally Posted by Atlaworks

But a lair of what?

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Someone who claims to be perfect; we forget things sometimes. Especially since whenever we get level/gear synced our prior buffs are removed as well.

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Originally Posted by ArrowAmethyst

-Bard's who never sing songs (Foe Requiem reduces enemy magic resistance by 10% making mobs take more dmg from attacks spells, Army's Paeon Restores TP, Mage's Ballad restores MP)

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I kind of blame development on this one. They decided to go with the Tank, Healer, Dps, Dps party, instead of having a true support role. Whether that was a good choice, or not, is debatable, and I'm not here to argue that. Bard got some support elements tossed at it, and two of the songs actually hurt their damage output. So a lot of bards level up thinking "oh, this is going to hurt me," and most of the time neglect that side of their job. If bard had been a true support job, I actually feel less people would play it. I'd say the large majority just like the archer (bow) side of it, and really don't care that others want them to play songs.

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Originally Posted by Alestorm

In all fairness about the NIN poison, sometimes we space out and forget after being synced. You show me a NIN main that never forgets I'll show you a lair.

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I usually remember about the time I go to use stun and it no work. Wish level sync didn't wipe things that you're high enough level to use.

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Originally Posted by Alestorm

Someone who claims to be perfect; we forget things sometimes. Especially since whenever we get level/gear synced our prior buffs are removed as well.

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But who that claims to be perfect lives in a lair, of all things? That's like... a cave.

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Originally Posted by TarynH

If bard had been a true support job, I actually feel less people would play it. I'd say the large majority just like the archer (bow) side of it, and really don't care that others want them to play songs.

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This is actually me and how I feel about bards. That's the only reason why I have a bard leveled. I really like the 'bow' aspect of it. The Devs should have just made a class specifically for bow DPS. (Ranger, anyone?) But that's neither here nor there.

I too have run into the "problematic" players, as the OP described them. More often than not, these are severely under-geared people who go into lv 60 roulette with Augmented Ironworks gear on. Sometimes, they cheat item level requirements by equipping slaying accessories when queue'd up as a BLM.

The sad reality is that we can't do anything about these people. We can teach them and teach them and teach them. But ultimately, it's up to them to give a damn. I've found that most of them don't. It sucks, yeah. I've gotten angry at them, yeah. Because it's frustrating. We can't do anything about it, though. However, I do pledge that if any of you ever find me in a leveling dungeon, an Alex raid, or a trial, or anything you can queue up for in the DF/RF, I pledge to not be one of these people. Because I don't think it's fair to my teammates if I do something like that.

Why care? Outside extreme/savage content is easy enough even if someone is underperforming so failing is not the norm, also if you don't want to deal with random people the option to stick to premades is always there, only four players are needed after all.

And yeah, is someone is preventing the group to clear a dungeon (not just making the run a few minutes longer) kick him.

People expects people to know everything straight away. This game forces you COPY AND PASTE YouTube or guides online. it doesn't give you the chance to actually learn because (no disrespect)of people like you.

Allow people to learn and make mistakes or advice them don't rant and them because NO ONE was born knowing everything.

Plain and simple

Here's why players contribute to the 'Epidemic' the OP describes:

No Personal Responsibility.

From us. The whole FFXIV community. Its our fault.

Look at the various threads on this subject. They'll throw their hands up and blame the devs for not putting in tutorials, not putting in gear checks, not putting in soulstone requirements, not putting in whatever. The reason we make claims like that is because we're too damned lazy to do something ourselves. And yes, there is something we can do. Its called Vote kick.

Oh.. but that's such a mean and bullying thing to do. Yeah lazy players who do know what they should be doing but don't are the real bullies. And its time the playerbase actually did something about it. Its fine when people make mistakes. Sometimes we forget a poison, forget an oath, forget defiance, or whatever. It happens. A friendly reminder is all that's needed. But if that reminder isn't heeded, send'm back the queue.

Healers and Tanks are expendable. When you've dismissed one of these you are at the front of the queue for replacements. Many decent tanks and healers have the setting to join in progress. They'll be happy to pick up where the leech left off.

But there's your real problem. People leeching. People just grinding out so they can make their make believe numbers higher with as little effort needed. If they don't want to spend time in the dungeon. Oblige them with a quick exit.

If you're worried about people reporting for 'abuse' its easy to deal with. Don't argue with people. Don't attack them. Just give them the 'friendly' and 'polite' nudge/reminder, and when they get uppity or sarcastic with you, or simply ignore. Give'm the boot without a word. Without verbal abuse as evidence GM cannot and will not take action.

And don't be a derp and actually boot a newbie. If you're getting a bonus for someone new, be gracious for that and cut them some slack. If you're in a pre 30 dungeon and people seem to be lost. Guide them. Just don't take flak (because even newbies sometimes have bad apples).

At the end of the day, we have the ultimate control. Lets use it. Lets take responsibility ourselves. Its a little click, a patient wait for replacement, and someone will eventually get a hint.

It's true, you're the very best like no-one ever was etc.

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Originally Posted by Atlaworks

But a lair of what?

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A lair full of liars.

The Liar's Lair.

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Originally Posted by Synrin

I would like to add all those tanks not using defensive cooldowns, Dark Knights being in Grit without Dark Side, people pulling without a reason, healers recasting protect in the middle of the fight (this happened to me today in DUN SCAITH, 3 times he did it for no reason). There will be players like that no matter the level. I was honestly surprised you hadn't come across any bad MNKs as there seems to be a surge of those due to Stormblood...

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Well, did people die in Dun Scaith? That's why you'd cast protect. Sometimes I delay my protect if I need to heal people first. Once the situation settles down I'll cast Protect.

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Originally Posted by Kaethra

Here's why players contribute to the 'Epidemic' the OP describes:

No Personal Responsibility.

From us. The whole FFXIV community. Its our fault.

Look at the various threads on this subject. They'll throw their hands up and blame the devs for not putting in tutorials, not putting in gear checks, not putting in soulstone requirements, not putting in whatever. The reason we make claims like that is because we're too damned lazy to do something ourselves. And yes, there is something we can do. Its called Vote kick.

Oh.. but that's such a mean and bullying thing to do. Yeah lazy players who do know what they should be doing but don't are the real bullies. And its time the playerbase actually did something about it. Its fine when people make mistakes. Sometimes we forget a poison, forget an oath, forget defiance, or whatever. It happens. A friendly reminder is all that's needed. But if that reminder isn't heeded, send'm back the queue.

Healers and Tanks are expendable. When you've dismissed one of these you are at the front of the queue for replacements. Many decent tanks and healers have the setting to join in progress. They'll be happy to pick up where the leech left off.

But there's your real problem. People leeching. People just grinding out so they can make their make believe numbers higher with as little effort needed. If they don't want to spend time in the dungeon. Oblige them with a quick exit.

If you're worried about people reporting for 'abuse' its easy to deal with. Don't argue with people. Don't attack them. Just give them the 'friendly' and 'polite' nudge/reminder, and when they get uppity or sarcastic with you, or simply ignore. Give'm the boot without a word. Without verbal abuse as evidence GM cannot and will not take action.

And don't be a derp and actually boot a newbie. If you're getting a bonus for someone new, be gracious for that and cut them some slack. If you're in a pre 30 dungeon and people seem to be lost. Guide them. Just don't take flak (because even newbies sometimes have bad apples).

At the end of the day, we have the ultimate control. Lets use it. Lets take responsibility ourselves. Its a little click, a patient wait for replacement, and someone will eventually get a hint.

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This. This so much.
Where can I sign?

I'm honestly getting tired of hearing people say "cant really do anything about lazy players". Yea you can?
I dont know why so many people feel that votekicking is off limits and such a mean thing to do.

Even a lazy person doesnt wanna keep queueing up just to be kicked again. It's only worthwhile to slack if people let you get through with this.

The only epidemic is the playerbase defending the MNK in Sohm HM with an Antiquated i170 and the WHM with crafting gear in Haukke NM healing through Cleric Stance.

You nip the no-Heavy-Thrusting-Cleric-Stance-Healing-no-Provoke-cross-skill-equipping-tanking behavior in the bud early on. Im talking before they get to Ifirit NM. You didn't, now we're complaining about it in post Praetorium dungeons. Blame the White Knights.

I got better at tanking because I got yelled at for not flashing enough, watching aggro and rotating mobs in Cutters Cry. "S**tty tank..." "Wtf Tank!" Etc. It was a wake up call. I did fine up to that point I thought. It was embarressing and i wanted to get better. Needed to. If I had been told I was "doing Ok" i would not have the desire to "git gud" because I didnt get yelled at.

"I thought I sucked. But the party said I did good"

/rant

I'm sorry you went through this, and I do see some of the same things. It's not just the game and it's not just the players, they're both to blame to an extent.

The game itself has plenty of teachings to have you get use to your job and learn. Just that these are optional and can be skipped. Some of these content options need to be revised so people can get better.

For me it's hard to imagine someone going "Oh man I want to play this job" only to go in blindly and never reading tool-tips. These jobs are not that hard to understand, just sit back and read on your phone / pc during some downtime. These jobs aren't hard to understand, it's getting use to doing it over and over that might mess you up.

So for example, you're a Pug, you go in do your initial quest, grab some on the way outside. These quests are just beating mobs but are meant to get you use to hitting that button, perfect. Now if you read the tool tips you'd see you do an attack for 150 potency, you go into Raptor and you can't get into Opo-opo. So really all you have to do is hit the button. You're beating on mobs and taking them down so it's fun to be overpowered, you do a few quests that you grabbed on the way out and you're level 5.

You read the tool-tip you start to see the connection with skills. Eventually you unlock Guildhests, and take on Under the Armor. This is where the game encourages bad player behavior. The Brockman dies quickly so if the PUG is doing something wrong like positions, it won't matter. The adds come in and do nothing, as a new player you may panic and go for them only to have someone go "Just focus on the boss". While this is true, it's also making player learn to ignore mechanics, so if it works here it should work anywhere. Brockman uses his aoe, it does some damage but nothing major. This teaches the new player that if I get hit it's okay.

They take this into their first dungeon Sastasha and ignore the adds and bubbles rising, burning the boss because it was taught to them from the game and players and turns out to be true..just burn. From there it's a downward spiral depending on the player.

Now this isn't including everyone, this is an example from common flaws I see with new players. When if the game enforced a challenge a bit more, then these situations could be avoided. Problem is making them harder could make them longer and when you grind for so long you get more annoyed with life. This game requires you to repeat enough as it is. Personally I think doing the following would encourage players to seek out these optional ways of learning but maybe I'm overlooking something?

* Make the mechanics noticeable and punishing - For Under the Armor, have the adds perform aoe's that take player HP and heal the boss and themselves. If you get so many adds you'll end up dying. Or have each add give a DEF / ATK bonus to the big guy. Apply this to dungeons.

* Make the class quests give you instances or trials that put your skills to the test. The Gladiator one had a quest Ul'dah's Most Wanted. If I didn't defend that NPC, he died too quickly. So I went from just doing damage to taking it. It took me a few tries. Lets say for bards, their 30 quest a Giga comes out in the quest, starts pummeling everyone, the mages can cure but only so much..luckily they have you to use ballad. Teach them to restore MP for those who have none whether it's b/c they can't manage or there have been too many raises..

It's sort of a road block but at the same time it's encouraging. Yes you need to do the class quest but you also want to. Yes you need to do the dungeon but you also want to, which to me is different than saying "Want to go into Sastasha? Pass my trial first." Of course you hope that these people go from dying and not performing to reading and doing their side of the deal, and get better.

Main problem is that the game actually encourages players to not give their best. Dungeons are face-roll easy, you get high ilvl gear thrown at you left and right, gearing up requires zero skill, only time investment.
And once a dungeon/boss/... is realeased with a bit of a challenging mechanic, people start whining about it and it gets nerfed to the ground.

If the game would put us into a situation where we have to use our tool kit effectively to advance for a change (and ignore the cries that are sure to come), people would have no choice but to bother with learning how to play their class. Sadly this is never going to happen, as the game is too focused on pleasing everyone. Being beginner friendly was ok during the first couple dungeons, but hey, by now people aren't beginners anymore, they can deal with a bit more challenging encounters. If they actually designed something like this, they might be surprised.

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Originally Posted by kattzkitti

Wanderer's Minuet isn't a 30% DPS gain, it's actually only like 10% or so at the cost of your mobility. Generally doesn't matter, but there's plenty of bosses that are easier with it being off and only toggled on to take advantage of the few buttons it enables.

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You certainly leave it on the entire fight until you need to move for a while. Either way this is dungeons, can you please tell me what there is to dodge besides 1-2 circle aoes? C'mon that's a bad reply.
I would only take the stance off if a lot of movement was required, like seph extreme, I would take it off when you stack near blue puddles where you get smashed 3 times. Yes it's not really 30% but you talk about movements are a huge problem for BRDS. Have you seen the great BLM's? They move much as they have to, same goes to BRD. But anyways this person talked about dungeons, so there is not a lot of stuff going on haha.

Not to mention what this person said:

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Originally Posted by bardaboo

Factor in lack of iron jaws and sidewinder. Plus a straight 30% increase in dmg to bloodletter, straighter shot procs blunt arrow repelling shot, flaming arrow and your dot ticks it a huuuge deal.

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My personal pet peeve is when players do not use their damage, defensive, healing cooldowns or even worse skills like Virus and Heavy Thrust. There are alot of skills that increase slashing, piercing etc.The Disembowel skill from the Dragoon, increase damage dealt by Dragoons, Bards, Machinist and their turrents. Yet often I see Dragoons not use this skill.

When was the last time you have seen a White Mage cast Presence of Mind? :confused:


Presence of Mind : Reduces weaponskill cast time and recast time, spell cast time and recast time, and auto-attack delay by 20%. for 15 seconds.

Have you considered getting good?

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Originally Posted by akaneakki

You certainly leave it on the entire fight until you need to move for a while. Either way this is dungeons, can you please tell me what there is to dodge besides 1-2 circle aoes? C'mon that's a bad reply.
I would only take the stance off if a lot of movement was required, like seph extreme, I would take it off when you stack near blue puddles where you get smashed 3 times. Yes it's not really 30% but you talk about movements are a huge problem for BRDS. Have you seen the great BLM's? They move much as they have to, same goes to BRD. But anyways this person talked about dungeons, so there is not a lot of stuff going on haha.

Not to mention what this person said:

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Bah i made an oopsie. Sidewinder is available w/o Wanderer's but again 30% less. It's emperyal arrow you can't use, which is a big one. Especially when you want a newer bard to kearn how it works with the rest of their gcds and the cast time clipping. Ooh i also forgot misery end, all those off gcd moves that can be used while moving.

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Originally Posted by bardaboo

Bah i made an oopsie. Sidewinder is available w/o Wanderer's but again 30% less. It's emperyal arrow you can't use, which is a big one. Especially when you want a newer bard to kearn how it works with the rest of their gcds and the cast time clipping. Ooh i also forgot misery end, all those off gcd moves that can be used while moving.

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Yup, but you have to consider the auto attacks are gone so dps ''loss'' from there. However, like you said, the person have to get used to the things. I've met brds 60 where they refuse to use the stance too :)

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Originally Posted by kupokage

The only epidemic is the playerbase defending the MNK in Sohm HM with an Antiquated i170 and the WHM with crafting gear in Haukke NM healing through Cleric Stance.

You nip the no-Heavy-Thrusting-Cleric-Stance-Healing-no-Provoke-cross-skill-equipping-tanking behavior in the bud early on. Im talking before they get to Ifirit NM. You didn't, now we're complaining about it in post Praetorium dungeons. Blame the White Knights.

I got better at tanking because I got yelled at for not flashing enough, watching aggro and rotating mobs in Cutters Cry. "S**tty tank..." "Wtf Tank!" Etc. It was a wake up call. I did fine up to that point I thought. It was embarressing and i wanted to get better. Needed to. If I had been told I was "doing Ok" i would not have the desire to "git gud" because I didnt get yelled at.

"I thought I sucked. But the party said I did good"

/rant

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I will agree with this too. I am actually not sure whats worse: Lazy players or people enabling that kind of behaviour.
When I lvled my last 3-4 classes to 60 during the last few months, I noticed this quite a few times.

One example I still remember very well is Dzemael where I was a dragoon and our AST healer didnt seem to play any cards.
So I kept an eye on the healer for about 10 minutes to see if shes using ANY cards. And nope, she didnt.
I then really really carefully asked her why ("hey xy, I noticed you arent playing any cards, may I ask you why?")
and got a reply that was something along the lines of "Oh I know ^^ im just keeping them for bosses"
....But she didnt play any cards before bosses to prepare and didnt play any during the boss either. So I asked again why she isnt playing cards.

Then the tank interfered "dude, just leave her be,it doesnt interfere with the dungeon progress"

AST was like: "they arent really needed here anyway" and also followed up with a "I play how I want ^^"

So when I confronted the tank why hes enabling lazy behaviour,he came up with "Maybe shes still learning?"

And thats where I lost all faith. Apparently people learn how to use their skills by not using them. /facepalm

I mean that AST wasnt 60 yet, but she had 2-3 other lvl 60 characters and all I wanted her is to TRY.
If youre not gonna play cards ever cos "theyre not needed" (<-- technically,theyre not needed ANYWHERE...), play a WHM, not an AST. Simple.
My votekick was rejected because these other people were whiteknighting her, which I would understand if they were friends, but
I checked their lodestones...they were all from different servers with zero connections whatsoever.

I remember when I was lvling my first class, conjurer. And yeah, I was dumb.
I was a conjurer till lvl 37, and once i became a whm, spamming regen on tanks was my favorite thing to do.
Why did I become a whm at lvl 37 at last? Cos people yelled at me.
to be fair,the game made it look quite OPTIONAL to become whm/lvl arcanist to 15, so I thought I could do it later...and that was misleading to me.
Game should put a wall in front of you and be like "u do dis naow or gtfo"...but well,the playerbase managed to take care of that.
They also yelled at me for putting Regen on tanks too soon.

So yeah...I was an utter noob. The difference is: I LISTENED. I didnt go all defensive "how dare you tell me how to play".
Maybe some of them couldve been nicer,but yeah. Either way, it helped. And thats how it should be. Be a clueless noob,but if someone
is trying to help: take their advice and dont turn it down.

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Originally Posted by Laerune

When was the last time you have seen a White Mage cast Presence of Mind? :confused:


Presence of Mind : Reduces weaponskill cast time and recast time, spell cast time and recast time, and auto-attack delay by 20%. for 15 seconds.

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Ive seen it on a whm just yesterday. Oh wait, that was me. \o/
No,but seriously though, you're right, not many people use it. I mainly use it to increase my dps.
I do remember though,when I was a newbie,that I hardly ever used it ...I was generally very careful with healer cooldowns because "I need to keep all of these for an emergency. If i use them now, sh*t will go down right after it and it wont be ready"
I needed to learn that CDs arent always meant to be kept for emergencies...and that process took me a while.

Just get in a FC and run with people that don't suck. Your welcome.

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Originally Posted by MagiusNecros

Just get in a FC and run with people that don't suck. Your welcome.

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If I only got 1 bucks each time, that was said.

Yeah i get the auto attacks... but it factors in less and less, especially in an aoe setting. 30% boost on aoe attacks on 6 or more mobs is going to be far superior to auto attack on one mob.

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Originally Posted by akaneakki

If I only got 1 bucks each time, that was said.

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It works tho...been doing this since 1.0. Never had an issue. :x

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Originally Posted by Kaethra

Its called Vote kick. Oh.. but that's such a mean and bullying thing to do. Yeah lazy players who do know what they should be doing but don't are the real bullies. And its time the playerbase actually did something about it. Its fine when people make mistakes. Sometimes we forget a poison, forget an oath, forget defiance, or whatever. It happens. A friendly reminder is all that's needed. But if that reminder isn't heeded, send'm back the queue.

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Friendly reminder that you don't know the story of anyone you party with in duty finder. They might have dyslexia and could have misunderstood something about their skills. They might not be able to output DPS as well because they have a physical disability like hand tremors. They might be trying a class that's outside their comfort zone and be extremely nervous, causing many mistakes. None of those people owe you their life stories or should have to preface every dungeon run with an explanation of their personal limitations. Hell, people might just have distractions going on in their home. God knows I've played badly sometimes because roommates decided to invade the living room. Of course there are very obvious leeches who should be removed from parties. But if kicking is our go-to option for anyone we so much as think is a leech, we're not improving the player base, we're just excluding the parts we don't like. Will some people see the kicks as a reason to get better? Sure. But many of them will just see it as a reason to quit. :/

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Originally Posted by kupokage

I got better at tanking because I got yelled at for not flashing enough, watching aggro and rotating mobs in Cutters Cry. "S**tty tank..." "Wtf Tank!" Etc. It was a wake up call. I did fine up to that point I thought. It was embarressing and i wanted to get better. Needed to.

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I'm glad this worked for you, but not everyone responds to harsh criticism in a positive way? Just because you got motivated to improve by other players cursing you out doesn't mean that most other people would feel the same. There's a reason we have fewer tanks than anything else, and part of it is this exact situation. Many people aren't motivated by being shouted at, and advising others to insult their fellow players as a means of encouragement is probably the most backwards thing I've seen come out of these forums in weeks--and yes, I say that even having read the nerf coil thread.

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Originally Posted by sarehptar

Friendly reminder that you don't know the story of anyone you party with in duty finder. They might have dyslexia and could have misunderstood something about their skills. They might not be able to output DPS as well because they have a physical disability like hand tremors. They might be trying a class that's outside their comfort zone and be extremely nervous, causing many mistakes.

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If you're blind or have hand tremors or are disabled maybe you shouldn't be playing this game. Do we let blind people drive cars? No.

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Originally Posted by Skyrior

If you're blind or have hand tremors or are disabled maybe you shouldn't be playing this game. Do we let blind people drive cars? No.

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I can't believe I have to actually spell this out to someone, but there's a BIG difference between someone blind driving a car with the potential to seriously harm themself or others and someone blind playing a video game and possibly being bad at it.

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Originally Posted by loreleidiangelo

I can't believe I have to actually spell this out to someone, but there's a BIG difference between someone blind driving a car with the potential to seriously harm themself or others and someone blind playing a video game and possibly being bad at it.

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Both are the same, one just has much worse consequences. In both scenarios you're making life more difficult to others.

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Originally Posted by Skyrior

Both are the same, one just has much worse consequences. In both scenarios you're making life more difficult to others.

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If you can't tell the difference between actually endangering someone's life and causing someone to spend ten or twenty extra minutes in a video game instance, I have no idea what to tell you dude, except that maybe it's time to step away from the PC/console and go tackle some real world issues. I heard volunteering helps build character.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sarehptar

Friendly reminder that you don't know the story of anyone you party with in duty finder. They might have dyslexia and could have misunderstood something about their skills. They might not be able to output DPS as well because they have a physical disability like hand tremors. They might be trying a class that's outside their comfort zone and be extremely nervous, causing many mistakes. None of those people owe you their life stories or should have to preface every dungeon run with an explanation of their personal limitations. Hell, people might just have distractions going on in their home. God knows I've played badly sometimes because roommates decided to invade the living room. Of course there are very obvious leeches who should be removed from parties. But if kicking is our go-to option for anyone we so much as think is a leech, we're not improving the player base, we're just excluding the parts we don't like. Will some people see the kicks as a reason to get better? Sure. But many of them will just see it as a reason to quit. :/

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this is a prime example of whiteknighting.

Can you please stop trying to find a possible excuse for everyone? Yes, there may be people with disabilities and what not.
But theyre not the majority. And I will not give the benefit of doubt to everyone because of a minority.

Also, from experience, its those with disabilities who try really hard to do their best and would more than likely do way better than those lazy slobs we are talking about.

If you have your room mates invading your living room during the WHOLE dungeon (cos otherwise your dps would only drop for a short time and hardly anyone would be bothered),
then you should maybe excuse yourself and take a penalty or at least mention that you might be distracted cos of something thats going on irl.

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Originally Posted by sarehptar

If you can't tell the difference between actually endangering someone's life and causing someone to spend ten or twenty extra minutes in a video game instance, I have no idea what to tell you dude, except that maybe it's time to step away from the PC/console and go tackle some real world issues. I heard volunteering helps build character.

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I love how you immediately resorted to personal attacks.

Endangering someone's life is inconveniencing them.

Making someone's run take longer is also inconveniencing them.

The only difference is the degree of inconvenience.

Also what the above poster said: you're pulling some fringe scenario into this topic for no reason. Most people aren't disabled. And if real life is getting in the way most people make an effort to inform the party about it and no one will give them any troubles.

If you don't tell your backstory any sane person is going to assume you aren't disabled.

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Originally Posted by sarehptar

snip

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Granted, but I don't need to know their story. It's irrelevant. All that matters is each of our performance in the team content we signed up for.

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Originally Posted by Faliandra

Can you please stop trying to find a possible excuse for everyone?

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I mean, if this sounds like excusing everyone to you:

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Originally Posted by sarehptar

Of course there are very obvious leeches who should be removed from parties.

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All I was trying to do was point out that hovering your mouse over the vote kick for everyone you think is leeching isn't constructive for the FFXIV community as a whole. It won't make a majority of kicked people want to improve. It will just make them want to quit.

Also, some dungeons last 15 minutes or less? And some trials last 2-5 minutes? That's not an excessive period of time to be distracted. You can bet your ass I'm not dropping out of an instance that took me an hour to queue into because of ~10 minutes of distraction. Sorry, not sorry.

(Edit: Holy shit man, this is what you get for trying to show two ounces of empathy on the internet. Here, let me rescind my statements and blend in with the rest of the crowd: Screw disabled/anxious/tired/etc. people! There's only a few of them and if they're inconveniencing me, they should just GTFO anyway! Phew. That's so much better.)

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Originally Posted by sarehptar

All I was trying to do was point out that hovering your mouse over the vote kick for everyone you think is leeching isn't constructive for the FFXIV community as.....

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Don't attempt to shift the topic. You justified your claim by saying there are disabled people... which is a ridiculous argument, hence why people are all talking about it right now.

Your argument is just like saying we shouldn't let teachers teach via speaking because there is a chance one of the students is deaf. Ok, cool, but (1) most students aren't deaf (just like how most ff14 players aren't disabled), and (2) if you're deaf you go to a special needs school (and if you're disabled and can't control your hands you wouldn't play a video game that requires you to control your hands....)

I mean.... i see both sides of the disability coin... but why when someone complains about poor players people suggest "preform is there". Can we flip that? Please? If you KNOW you can't play well maybe you should preform? "/fc Hey i only have one working hand atm anyone wanna help me clear this dungeon so I'm not holding 3 random players back?" Juust a thought.

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Originally Posted by bardaboo

I mean.... i see both sides of the disability coin... but why when someone complains about poor players people suggest "preform is there". Can we flip that? Please? If you KNOW you can't play well maybe you should preform? "/fc Hey i only have one working hand atm anyone wanna help me clear this dungeon so I'm not holding 3 random players back?" Juust a thought.

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How about anyone who doesn't want to risk a bad DF outcome just don't use DF? ONly use DF if you accept that you may not like what you get. Simple.

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Originally Posted by Skyrior

Don't attempt to shift the topic. You justified your claim by saying there are disabled people... which is a ridiculous argument, hence why people are all talking about it right now.

Your argument is just like saying we shouldn't let teachers teach via speaking because there is a chance one of the students is deaf.

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Bro, I'm not shifting the topic in the slightest? My original post that you are supposedly responding to literally stated this exact thing??

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Originally Posted by sarehptar

Of course there are very obvious leeches who should be removed from parties. But if kicking is our go-to option for anyone we so much as think is a leech, we're not improving the player base, we're just excluding the parts we don't like. Will some people see the kicks as a reason to get better? Sure. But many of them will just see it as a reason to quit. :/

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If anyone's shifting the topic, it's you, by responding to only one sentence out of an entire paragraph of my post...

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Originally Posted by Skyrior

Your argument is just like saying we shouldn't let teachers teach via speaking because there is a chance one of the students is deaf.

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You know what happens when you have a deaf student in your class? I do, because I'm a teacher. Your school is legally obligated to make accommodations for that student, up to and including a sign language interpreter, so that your deaf student can access the information shared by the speaking teacher just as easily and freely as all the other hearing students. This example doesn't even work--what some people here are proposing would amount to kicking the deaf student out of the class because they aren't as "skilled" as the hearing students, and calling that a solution.

What the actual hell.

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Originally Posted by sarehptar

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yes it does sound like excusing everyone...because where do you wanna draw the line between "obviously leeching" and "possibly disabled" or "possibly distracted"?
in the end, your overall statement sounds like "its bad to kick low dps people unless their character is obviously afk".

Also, i highly doubt you wait 1 hour to enter a dungeon.
If your room mates decide to bother you, tell them off or eat the penalty. 10 minutes is almost the whole dungeon.
If you were in my DF party performing really poorly, youd see yourself on your way out fairly soon.
Sorry, not sorry. You're not entitled to stay just because you had a long queue.

well i can understand ur anger , but SE cant really do much about it ^^

the only way to deal with it is, to go in urself and just accept that not every person in the game is good at it ^^

also people cant read ur mind magically through the internet :P +not everyone is in a hurry like you are

also for the posts above :

the only thing i would call inconvenience , if someone offered you a specific type of service wich u didnt get , but since theres no contract to sign when you use DF the inconvenience ur all talking about kinda goes in 2 ways :P
so its not really a valid argument to talk about inconvenience ^^

i can see why it is frustrating if u dont get what u want , but thats the way it is. you just cant magically change people ^^ Specially not on DF.

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Originally Posted by RaijinSupreme

How about anyone who doesn't want to risk a bad DF outcome just don't use DF? ONly use DF if you accept that you may not like what you get. Simple.

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Like.... such a blanket statement. You are basically excusing all the lazy, wrong gear wearing, 1 2 3 only, RP walkers, trolls, non buff using people.
Why can't you hold those people to a higher standard? Unless you fall into that category there's no reason for being ok with it. These people force themselves onto their party members and expect a carry and get carried by people like you. Bravo