Freedom for Tiamat

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Originally Posted by Lukha

That might be the case, but if so it's odd that Nidhogg would take a consort (Tioman) when he's still mourning Ratatoskr. He doesn't seem particularly interested in companionship.

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Wasn't he mourning her as his sister rather than consort ? (can't remember)

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Originally Posted by PocketVolcano

You are aware that she can break out whenever she feels like it but doesn't want to...?

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This is the most accurate.
We learnt Allag's machinery is going faulty day after day and even lesser mobs roaming around because containment devices breaking all around. No wonder whatever ties she there will breaks easy if tested.

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Originally Posted by Celef

Wasn't he mourning her as his sister rather than consort ? (can't remember)

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I don't think that it was ever stated that Ratatoskr and Nidhogg were mates. He clearly loved her, but I always took it as familial love, rather than romantic love. The Ishgardians killed his sister - honestly, having siblings of my own that I'm very close to, I could sure see why he'd go insane with rage at that.

I don't recall seeing any lore indicating that Azdaja and Vrtra are mated, either - unless it's in the lore book.

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Originally Posted by Celef

Wasn't he mourning her as his sister rather than consort ? (can't remember)

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Yes, he always refers to Rata as his sister.

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Originally Posted by Celef

Wasn't he mourning her as his sister rather than consort ? (can't remember)

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And even if there was any romantic intrest between Nidhogg and Ratatosk (which there is no evidence of, afaik) wouldnt it make sense for him to take a new mate - simply to reproduce and create an army of his own children to take down Ishgard.

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Originally Posted by Vidu

And even if there was any romantic intrest between Nidhogg and Ratatosk (which there is no evidence of, afaik) wouldnt it make sense for him to take a new mate - simply to reproduce and create an army of his own children to take down Ishgard.

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Which is why I'm confused, since that's the only reason taking a new mate would make sense while he's still raging over Ratatoskr's murder...but as Enur has pointed out, the lore book claims dragons reproduce asexually, so I'm still left to wonder why he'd bother.

And I really, really thought it mentioned somewhere along the storyline that they were mated, that all the First Brood spread across the globe in mated pairs in order to propagate the species...but the closest reference I've found so far is Middy mentioning that his children spread out to breed (but not specifically anything about them pairing off), and Tiamat refering to Bahamut as 'my beloved', so maybe I'm mistaken, and Nidhogg and Ratatoskr didn't have that sort of relationship even though their siblings did...

but if she is free who will i ride my twintania mount infront of while laughing loudly

LET ME HAVE MY GLOATING

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Originally Posted by Lukha

I was going to point out that word of god has confirmed that the Au Ra are not genetically related to dragons, but then it occurred to me that you might mean that that First Brood pair might have ended up in the Au Ra homeland, and become the basis for their Dusk Mother and Dawn Father, which is a very interesting thought. I don't suppose we have any idea what color Azdeja and Vritra were, or what they looked like?

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It's worth noting in relation to this that the Allagan history part of the lore book makes multiple references to Bahamut by the epithet "the dawn wyrm" and Tiamat "the dusk wyrm". There's absolutely no historical basis as far as I know for Bahamut & Tiamat ever having visited Othard, nor for the Au Ra having been to or even come from Meracydia (and also the Auri creation myth explicitly names their father and mother Azim and Nhaama respectively), but considering the dragons' relationship, the similarities are quite striking.

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Originally Posted by DracotheDragon

but if she is free who will i ride my twintania mount infront of while laughing loudly

LET ME HAVE MY GLOATING

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People like us have a special spot in hell reserved.

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Originally Posted by Enur

However the Ixal not having any resemblence i will refute

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It's confirmed fact via Fractal Continuum that the Ixal are an Allagan chimaera race.

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Originally Posted by Lukha

Which is why I'm confused, since that's the only reason taking a new mate would make sense while he's still raging over Ratatoskr's murder...but as Enur has pointed out, the lore book claims dragons reproduce asexually, so I'm still left to wonder why he'd bother.

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Well, not to be pedantic, but I believe that it's stated that dragons CAN reproduce asexually, not that they MUST. It's possible that dragons may have methods for producing offspring as a mated pair, but maintain the option of reproducing even without taking a mate. We already know that dragon biology is super weird, given that the variety of shapes a dragon can grow into seems to be nigh-limitless. Who knows what other quirks they may have hidden?

Whether or not that's true, it's possible that Nidhogg took Tioman as a mate out of convenience. Perhaps she had a sizable brood of her own that Nidhogg wished to add to his army, and she was amenable on condition that they become mates. It's unclear how much actual affection there might have been between them; she certainly seemed to hold some for him, as her dying "beloved" shows, but was Nidhogg's anger because he, too, held affection for her, or was he just enraged that we'd destroyed one of his most valuable assets?

It's stated in the book that dragons take consorts as more of a spiritual and emotional bond, it doesn't mention anything on physical though. They seek a connection with a partner on a level that the land (for lack of better words) races can't comprehend. That is why Tiamat freeing herself is a highly unlikely event, as more than just creating a monster of a thing named after Bahamut, she feels she betrayed that bond they had, which if is something we can't even imagine, is understandable why she would never want to leave or even die in the prison.

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Originally Posted by Settiesama

It's stated in the book that dragons take consorts as more of a spiritual and emotional bond, it doesn't mention anything on physical though. They seek a connection with a partner on a level that the land (for lack of better words) races can't comprehend. That is why Tiamat freeing herself is a highly unlikely event, as more than just creating a monster of a thing named after Bahamut, she feels she betrayed that bond they had, which if is something we can't even imagine, is understandable why she would never want to leave or even die in the prison.

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Whether or not we can understand it, the game makes it clear that someone who CAN understand it (Midgardsormr) feels that she has tormented herself long enough. The "dragons have bonds we can't even comprehend" excuse doesn't work very well when the most dragonly of dragons holds the same opinion we do!

On the other hand, just as one human cannot always understand the depths of emotion another human can feel, it could be the same between dragons. Midgardsormr may simply not have the right frame of reference to understand how completely Tiamat was devastated, having never gone through something similar himself (that we know of). Heck, Middy may never have even had a mate of his own in the first place.

Still, Midgardsormr's words lead me to believe that the events surrounding Bahamut's death and recreation as a Primal are wounds that time CAN heal. Tiamat may still one day pull herself out of her eons-long funk without waiting for death to claim her first. I'd simply like to see that day come within the lifespan of the game. :P

a giant redemption story for tiamat would be awesome

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

Whether or not we can understand it, the game makes it clear that someone who CAN understand it (Midgardsormr) feels that she has tormented herself long enough.

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That could also just be him talking as a father who wishes that his daughter would stop suffering.

there could be huge quest series where you free her and then she give you Twintania the freed

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Originally Posted by Settiesama

That could also just be him talking as a father who wishes that his daughter would stop suffering.

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That's how I interpreted it. In fact I really started to like him a lot more from that moment on. Not that I didn't like him before but he went from interesting lore figure to a character with actual feelings for me.

i to like Midgardsormr. father care when they children suffer. this true in the really world.

Maybe offtopic, but it always bothered me how Midgardsormr didn't show up at all in any of the early exchanges between us and Hraesvelgr/Nidhogg. At this point i just assume he didn't speak with them because he knew what had actually happened with the Ishgardians and that he thought it would be a good opportunity to test us. I think having had him speak with Hraesvelgr at some point would have made for some interesting dialogue

I was really hoping that Mids would convince Tiamat that she can heal and stop tormenting herself :( Seeing her in Azys Lla always makes me upset.

You would have thought that, in the aftermath of Nidhogg's death and Hraesvelgr being sort of mauled, she'd at least want to... talk to them? Can Hraesvelgr not visit Azys Lla to talk to HER? He flew over with Ysayle, after all, so we know he can make the journey.

Vidofnir often comments that the first brood is dwindling in number and "cannot be replaced". Given dragons reproduce asexually, is it just a choice from Mids to not have more children, or is there a reason behind it? Inquiring minds want to know.

Anyway basically Tiamat needs some time with her family. Minidad saying "sup girl stop moping" didn't do it, maybe a "you're not as terrible as you think you are, sis" party would.

I get why Tiamat does not want to ever be released but do feel rather bad each time i pass by there :(

Midgardsormr doesn't help us cause he is testing us and isn't incline to interfere. Its on us to do our bit as Hydaelyn's champion, not him.

Taimat doesn't want to leave and you can't save someone who doesn't want saving. She may also not want to leave what is left of her brood, all the insane dragons that live around her who's minds have been broken by Allag experiments. Its also possible that the Dragons can commune with each other over distance using the Dragonsong.

Regardless, Dragons have a fundamentally different mindset to humans, shaped somewhat by having a vastly longer timespan. The Firstbrood, while not technically irreplaceable in the sense of any Dragon that lives as long as them has the potential to be that powerful, are a historic and social institution within dragon society. When they are dead it will be the end of an age for Dragons.