Charging for runs.

I could be wrong but I thought there was something in the terms & conditions about it being against policy to "sell" runs. However, I think "hiring" someone is ok just like how I've heard you can't advertise that you're selling a housing plot but you can advertise wanting to buy one.

As long as OP does not RMT and just charges Gil, that's nothing wrong. If someone willing to give Gil for hiring a Tank, better for the tank.

We can disagree but it is their own business and no rules broken.

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Originally Posted by Freerider

So with samurai and red mage coming how reasonable would charging gil to level those dps through content as a tank be? Is there any rules against that specifically is what I'm asking because if not I dusting off my heavy armor for stormblood.

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I find it perfectly reasonable to do this.

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Originally Posted by LalaRu

As long as OP does not RMT and just charges Gil, that's nothing wrong. If someone willing to give Gil for hiring a Tank, better for the tank.

We can disagree but it is their own business and no rules broken.

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especially if you RP as a mercenary anyway

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Originally Posted by ADVSS

especially if you RP as a mercenary anyway

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Don't even need to RP as a mercenary, that's literally the definition of an adventurer, that's why they also call us "sellswords", people hire adventurers to do tasks or kill mobs, so I hope people here aren't implying the whole game lore is immoral.

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Originally Posted by alimdia

Don't even need to RP as a mercenary, that's literally the definition of an adventurer, that's why they also call us "sellswords", people hire adventurers to do tasks or kill mobs, so I hope people here aren't implying the whole game lore is immoral.

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shhhhhhhh That was like the most hardcore my RP went, for gods sake why am I still on this server lol

Meh - I'm admittedly a bad tank but even I can tank a MSQ dungeon just fine - It's not rocket science.
If queues are bad I'll just go in as WAR (they will have to put up with me occasionally running the wrong way).
For end game stuff the ratio should be easier to deal as it will either be with a static for raids and if ex primals continue like Zurvan where one tank is the preferred meta that should be no problem either.

Most dps I know with multiple 60s will do the same.

I am a career tank. I'll be taking the first week of Stormblood off work. I already have a premade light party to run all my content from 60-70. After I'm done with the runs I need for my own purposes, my healer and I are going to team up to offer a package deal for instant queues. Asking for reasonable compensation for something I otherwise wouldn't have queued for because I don't need to isn't unfair at all.

SE has already stated their position on selling content, such as clears for extremes. It's not against TOS at all. And it's not like you have to buy what someone is selling. You can wait in the 30 min queue with everyone else.

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Originally Posted by ChandraNoctis

Meh - I'm admittedly a bad tank but even I can tank a MSQ dungeon just fine - It's not rocket science.
If queues are bad I'll just go in as WAR (they will have to put up with me occasionally running the wrong way).
.

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lol thats so me, all the way. Once I get to the adds though, they dont go anywhere

I highly doubt SE is going to increase the adventurer in need bonus to help. Which is primarily why people will be charging for runs. The extra XP for the roulette wont really help as when people first go through, the first job to lvl 70 will be the easiest due to all the exploration, MSQ, sidequests, curiosity fates, and dungeons.

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Originally Posted by Derio

I highly doubt SE is going to increase the adventurer in need bonus to help. Which is primarily why people will be charging for runs. The extra XP for the roulette wont really help as when people first go through, the first job to lvl 70 will be the easiest due to all the exploration, MSQ, sidequests, curiosity fates, and dungeons.

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While the queue direly needs a role (more than a normal queue time) an adventurer in need will be rewarded 1 + dungeon length modifier to their weekly maximum tomestone(s) capacity for the next tome cycle. And change the system so if it needs multiple roles, like healer & tank, then both are in need at the same time. So for long dungeons perhaps its like +3-5, and for the super fast trial stuff its like +0-1. To even encourage the casual players, let them choose to change an amount of that capacity into a tomestone multiplier (15-25% more tomestones next tome cycle, costs 50 maximum capacity can't be used to drop below the minimum tomestone amount).


Maybe some wont care but seeing how the top tier tomestone is the lifeblood of upgrading for many people (whether it be relics, gearing alts, crafting materials, or a casual person's "end game" gear) - fairly certain a large group would become dedicated to maxing out all possible tome rewards and even switch out of DD to get the in need bonus. Of course roulette / non party reward only, so people can't farm it in a premade.

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Originally Posted by Atlaworks

Free economy, suckers.

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A fool and their money are soon parted.

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Originally Posted by Lexia

A fool and their money are soon parted.

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Conversely,

"Time is Money"

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

Conversely,

"Time is Money"

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Yea but isn't playing a MMO a way of passing time? I understand that phrase in other parts of life but not in gaming.

Knock yourselves out. I for one would never pay someone just to run content. Regardless of wait times.

you will make more money selling these primal runs for weapons/tokens that the new jobs need. Same with selling raid content for pages since there are still months for the expansion to be released, might as well start with it now, than you wont have to worry about gil after that :) Selling runs for leveling dungeons, or leveling in general is nothing you are able to make money with. As others stated, lots of people will just run with their FC's or friends, potd's, fates etc. If we would have a different leveling system, were you could actually "grind/powerlevel" people to the level they want, than that would look a whole different.

I don't see an issue with it, just be aware the time to do that will be only the first week or 2. After that everyone will go back to their main jobs and everything will be as it was more than likely.

Just don't be the guy asking for a ton of money per run, you'll get no takers. Maybe ask around 50K, a bit more if you have a buddy who can run as your healer and split it.

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Originally Posted by Lexia

Yea but isn't playing a MMO a way of passing time? I understand that phrase in other parts of life but not in gaming.

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Depends. For some, they might be willing to pay to bypass queues as they might see their gaming time as more important than however much gil. Especially for crafter types or others that don't have much trouble coming across gil. Time will tell how much this catches on, or doesn't. But if someone's willing to pay and it's worth it to them... *shrug*

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Originally Posted by Freerider

So with samurai and red mage coming how reasonable would charging gil to level those dps through content as a tank be? Is there any rules against that specifically is what I'm asking because if not I dusting off my heavy armor for stormblood.

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There's nothing against the rules for this. If people want to pay out gil for impatience, let them.

10-20k seems too low. I can make more than that for the same time spent doing solo runs of lower level dungeons for materials and items for GC seal turn ins, and that doesn't even come close to aqua runs. Opportunity costs! I don't think these for-profit dungeons runs are going to be quick 10 minute affairs either when you're dealing with random DPS... probably more like 20-30 min.

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Originally Posted by Alestorm

Maybe ask around 50K, a bit more if you have a buddy who can run as your healer and split it.

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That seems about right with what I'd expect people would pay.

Even assuming people would pay enough to give the tank and healer a modest profit, I doubt we'll see much run selling. There are other ways to level up and most people serious enough about leveling fast will have tank or healer friends to que with. The price people are willing to pay won't match the higher profit opportunities like treasure maps or crafting/gathering...so why bother trying to sell runs? You'd really have to go up to 200k+ a run to start getting into tempting territory for me, and I doubt people would pay that much.

Personally, I'll just be queuing with friends and otherwise playing like normal. I usually get near instant ques anyway, so nothing changes for me. Maybe people will throw rose petals at me and sing happy songs though?

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Originally Posted by Belhi

I think its less about punishing dps as much as seeing a potential market.

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I personally view selling runs and things of that ilk as exploiting other players.

When I set up my guild (before FFXIV), we were a group known for helping others for the sake of helping and playing for the enjoyment of the game. Coming to FFXIV, that core aspect of the guild is inherent in our Free Company. In my opinion exploiting other players is disrespectful of them. I understand the point of view that there is a potential market, but at the same time I see that more as an opportunity to help others and perhaps make a friend or two along the way.

I will not exploit others for personal gain. That really is what selling runs is, exploiting others for personal gain.

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

Depends. For some, they might be willing to pay to bypass queues as they might see their gaming time as more important than however much gil. Especially for crafter types or others that don't have much trouble coming across gil. Time will tell how much this catches on, or doesn't. But if someone's willing to pay and it's worth it to them... *shrug*

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Well, how about this, if they get help from a tank or healer instead of paying gil for that, pay it forward and help someone else further down the line.

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Originally Posted by alimdia

Don't even need to RP as a mercenary, that's literally the definition of an adventurer, that's why they also call us "sellswords", people hire adventurers to do tasks or kill mobs, so I hope people here aren't implying the whole game lore is immoral.

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Except that we are specifically the Warrior of Light, not a simple adventurer or sellsword. Other adventurers are certainly sellswords, but the Warrior of light is different. They risk their life over and over for Eorzea without hope or hint of payment, they commit numerous acts and deeds in support of the community in general for little to no reward. That is who the WoL is. Not a mercenary sellsword who won't rise from their pit of a bed unless they hear the clink of gil against gil.

I personally would never pay for a dungeon run of all things. There are plenty of ways to level outside of dungeons. The short term convenience isn't worth the gil for me.

Its their money, they use it when they need it.

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

I personally view selling runs and things of that ilk as exploiting other players.

When I set up my guild (before FFXIV), we were a group known for helping others for the sake of helping and playing for the enjoyment of the game. Coming to FFXIV, that core aspect of the guild is inherent in our Free Company. In my opinion exploiting other players is disrespectful of them. I understand the point of view that there is a potential market, but at the same time I see that more as an opportunity to help others and perhaps make a friend or two along the way.

I will not exploit others for personal gain. That really is what selling runs is, exploiting others for personal gain.

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I'm not going to sell runs because I am going to be too busy with the expansion content and I already will be running a lot of dungeons with my FC. The role imbalance, at least during levelling, will exist in my FC as well.

The reality is that the two dps thing is likely to trigger a substancial imbalance early on. That isn't on me. SE set up that situation and as a player, healers and tanks shouldn't be the ones who have to go out of their way to mitigate it. As mercenary as it is, it is probably better for dps players if there is tanks and healers selling runs because likely the tanks and healers doing that wouldn't be running those dungeons again otherwise and any dps they take through are dps others in queue don't have to compete with.

I said before tanks and healers are going to run as many dungeons as they feel like doing. Doing any more than that will in most cases require some incentive, either from a sense of duty to FC members and friends, feeling good about helping random people or getting some kind of material reward. For many, the second one isn't particularly motivating. For better or worse its likely going to be better for dps players if there are people hiring out there services than if it didn't happen. If it didn't all they would have is long queue times with no recourse.

This is a bit of a rant, but...
It's amazing to me that this game used to be considered the friendliest among the the mmo community, especially compared to WoW's. I don't see anything from this idea, other than toxicity. How selfish is to want to charge other players to do a basic aspect of the game, just because the role you wanted isn't in the expansion. It's not all about you. I've Tanked, Healed, and DPS and not once has it occurred to me to charge players to do a run with them. If players mess up, tell them. Repeat if you have to. If you don't do that as a mentor, you don't deserve to be one. The fact that players say "BONUS TOMES," when someone says they're new or how tanks now want to rush though the start of dungeon, before the healer could even cast protect says a lot.

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Originally Posted by REPROBEAN_CHILD

This is a bit of a rant, but...
It's amazing to me that this game used to be considered the friendliest among the the mmo community, especially compared to WoW's. I don't see anything from this idea, other than toxicity. How selfish is to want to charge other players to do a basic aspect of the game, just because the role you wanted isn't in the expansion. It's not all about you. I've Tanked, Healed, and DPS and not once has it occurred to me to charge players to do a run with them. If players mess up, tell them. Repeat if you have to. If you don't do that as a mentor, you don't deserve to be one. The fact that players say "BONUS TOMES," when someone says they're new or how tanks now want to rush though the start of dungeon, before the healer could even cast protect says a lot.

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I kinda doubt this discussion is entirely about the scorn of not having a new tank/healer class, but more about the obvious queue discrepancy that will demolish DF for a while when people flock to the new classes to try them out.

You call it selfish, I call it business-like. There will be a skyrocketing demand for healers and tanks while everyone is trying out the new classes. These people who would be charging gil for their healing/tanking service would likely just not queue if they were prevented in some way from charging gil or if the going-rate of a run was worth less than their time.

No, I would actually consider it selfish if you expected tanks and healers to go out of their way and queue for DF when they didn't really want to. You always have the option of not buying queues from these people selling them. I don't believe you can trade in the middle of the dungeon so the tank that's already in the dungeon with you isn't going to demand payment.

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Originally Posted by REPROBEAN_CHILD

This is a bit of a rant, but...
It's amazing to me that this game used to be considered the friendliest among the the mmo community, especially compared to WoW's. I don't see anything from this idea, other than toxicity. How selfish is to want to charge other players to do a basic aspect of the game, just because the role you wanted isn't in the expansion. It's not all about you. I've Tanked, Healed, and DPS and not once has it occurred to me to charge players to do a run with them. If players mess up, tell them. Repeat if you have to. If you don't do that as a mentor, you don't deserve to be one. The fact that players say "BONUS TOMES," when someone says they're new or how tanks now want to rush though the start of dungeon, before the healer could even cast protect says a lot.

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I would argue the flipside of that is why is it that Healers and Tanks have to go out of there way to do charity runs of dungeons for dps because SE made a decision that lead to an imbalance? How is that any less selfish by any dps that expect it?

I am pretty neutral on this but my biggest concern at launch is that I am going to end up getting constant nagging by dps who are tired of waiting over 30 minutes for dungeon queues. That is going to annoy me enough to seriously diminish my enjoyment of the launch. I like healing but not grinding the same dungeons all day when an expansion has just launched. If this issue happens its SE that caused it to happen and frankly as a paying customer it isn't on me to fix it, particularly if it is going to negatively effect my experience.

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Originally Posted by RoseOfTheRaven

This is against the ToS and is reportable/ban-able. You are not allowed to sell any kind of that content; ie. dungeons, mounts, raids. for gil.

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I always see people buying clears of Extreme/Savage and even leveling dungeons for gil. Nothing wrong with it, they want to use their hard earned gil to obtain a service from someone else (in this case, faster queues and leveling). I've also never seen anyone banned for it, they're still advertising occasionally. It's probably the same as house selling.

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Originally Posted by Belhi

I would argue the flipside of that is why is it that Healers and Tanks have to go out of there way to do charity runs of dungeons for dps because SE made a decision that lead to an imbalance?

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I'm sorry, but what imbalance? There's already more DPS jobs than tanks or healers. Even if you subtract RDM and SAM, that still would leave players trying to take 7 DPS from 60 to 70, alongside 3 tanks and 3 healers. Yes, some are worried that queues will be imbalanced because of two new DPS, but remember that SO many people were hyped to level DRK (when one of each job was released) that tank queues were slow and DPS were instant. The imbalance won't be due to new jobs of one type being added, but the number of players trying to play it. . . And keep in mind, some people aren't going to level the new jobs right away, or perhaps will focus on their main jobs first.

We'll be just fine. Some people will try to sell runs, but I honestly see them sitting in the PF while others are just leveling for free, without them.

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Originally Posted by RoseOfTheRaven

This is against the ToS and is reportable/ban-able. You are not allowed to sell any kind of that content; ie. dungeons, mounts, raids. for gil.

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I'm not seeing anything of the sort looking through it. Could you be specific on where it is in there?

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Originally Posted by RoseOfTheRaven

This is against the ToS and is reportable/ban-able. You are not allowed to sell any kind of that content; ie. dungeons, mounts, raids. for gil.

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There is nothing in the ToS against this...

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Originally Posted by EusisLandale

I'm not seeing anything of the sort looking through it. Could you be specific on where it is in there?

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He's flat out wrong. High end raid guilds have been doing mercenary runs since the beginning of the game. To the point where they even joke about their clients waiting for their gil to be delivered, so not exactly far from actual RMT connections but they're still in business just fine.

Now, what he might be thinking of is trading for stuff of real world value. Some artists, for example, have gotten warnings for trying to sell art or commissions for gil. This is technically a form of RMT as the art has real world value.

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

He's flat out wrong. High end raid guilds have been doing mercenary runs since the beginning of the game. To the point where they even joke about their clients waiting for their gil to be delivered, so not exactly far from actual RMT connections but they're still in business just fine.

Now, what he might be thinking of is trading for stuff of real world value. Some artists, for example, have gotten warnings for trying to sell art or commissions for gil. This is technically a form of RMT as the art has real world value.

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To be fair, high end guilds doing it doesn't mean it's not technically against the rules if it's in there somewhere. It's not hard to find violations of the naming rules, for example. The wording within the rules is even that they may do things about it not that they will.

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The fact that players say "BONUS TOMES," when someone says they're new or how tanks now want to rush though the start of dungeon, before the healer could even cast protect says a lot.

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Just cast protect when they stop, if you are really desperate swiftcast it. As for the bonus tomes I will react with BONUS, as soon as I see a new person doing the dungeon. I'm genuinely pleased as it has just made my lore farm that little bit easier. If you have helped your FC/friends and don't need dungeons etc. Due to being capped on tomes then why would you enter the DF?

Apart from helping out FC members/novices. I haven't really set foot in the DF at all, as I don't do my daily bonuses or had a need for them. So I can't see an issue with healers or tanks charging to go in X dungeon, if they didn't need to enter one.

Although I think it would be a d**kish move if players are doing it out of spite when they actually need something from the dungeon too.

Buying clears I have a mixed opinion on, I disagree if someone is buying a run because they lack the skill to do it. Although I see nothing wrong with a player that is capable of clearing, but having shite luck with other members and can't get into a farm party.

It's more than fair. You are taking the time away from new content and we all know there are players out there who love to race to max level, which you could be spending time doing. So this type of service is normal.

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Originally Posted by Lexia

Yea but isn't playing a MMO a way of passing time? I understand that phrase in other parts of life but not in gaming.

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For some people with limited time to play it is of paramount importance that they get to exchange goods and services to be able to draw enjoyment out of an MMO in the first place. Most people don't farm every crafting material and craft absolutely every item they need in the game, whether it's glamour crystals, dyes, food, potions, materia or furniture. Or even crafted gear to avoid farming them from pve content. They pay gil in exchange for other players to spend that time leveling, farming and producing that simple everyday product.

Paying someone to shorten a dungeon queue is the exact same principle as paying someone to go mine some red pigment, make a small stack of Dalamud Red Dye and list it on the MB so it can conveniently be bought in any major city. It costs the gatherer-crafter nothing but time to do that and they still charge gil from the potential buyer.

To anyone who thinks charging gil for an in-game service (that the buyer could very well do or make himself) is exploiting or selfish, I hope you are completely self sufficient and never go near a market board. To take part in trade and then criticize others for doing the same would be a bit hypocritical. Just to clarify I'm saying this as someone who has at this time never sold or bought a run of anything.

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Originally Posted by Vhailor

Semi-off-topic, but the fact that this thread even exists should be a deeply troubling sign for SE. Yoshi-P's whole stance of 'we're not worried about it because most of the DRK / AST players in Heavensward were already playing tanks / healers' is incredibly naive. He might end up being correct, but his logic is flawed.

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I think the statement was fine- It's all about how you internalize what he said. For a lot of people, they took it as him saying, "We didn't see enough new Tanks or Healers from DRK and AST to find it worthwhile implementing new ones." I challenge people to think about his statement differently, though.

It starts with accepting that the Tank and Healer roles are, in fact, in a bad place right now. DRK has been preferred (and has been better) than PLD since 3.0 launch. WAR is a no-brainer OT slot. Healers are in less trouble, however, AST is a trouble child that can never be balanced appropriately in it's current state. SCH is basically in a similar situation as WAR. WHM lacks anything to make it unique.

You then have to ask yourself if you believe that adding another Tank or Healer for queue times, for the feeling of inclusion, or for flavor, is worth the potential consequences. I think that's where Yoshi-P was coming from. I took it as, "Since it's mostly Tanks and Healers that would be playing potential additions to their roles, I'd like to do them a service by balancing them first, before adding something for popularity sake."

I think the dev team deserves some respect alongside the criticism, and I don't think that's being fairly balanced right now. I'm sure they want to give people everything they want, but they don't always have the right idea for it at the time. Punishing DPS players? Sure, go ahead, but it doesn't make this situation any better.

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Originally Posted by Nominous

I think the dev team deserves some respect alongside the criticism, and I don't think that's being fairly balanced right now. I'm sure they want to give people everything they want, but they don't always have the right idea for it at the time. Punishing DPS players? Sure, go ahead, but it doesn't make this situation any better.

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This isn't about punishing DPS players. The whole basis for this is the assumption that at launch dps queues will climb substantially. Yoshi P is right that EVENTUALLY it will balance out but at launch its likely to go nuts. Most healers and tanks have a dps offspec simply because a lot of solo content is easier to do as a dps. Questing as a healer is boring and slow. Its very likely that a fair number of them will try out the new jobs of the back, particularly those who find the roles appealing thematically. That will likely cause a spike in the number of dps levelling in ratio to healers and tanks right of the bat. Those healers and tanks that don't and level straight away will probably go back and start levelling their dps off spec once they hit 70.

In time things will settle down and people will return to tanking and healing, if for no other reason than to get shorter queues. However at launch there will likely be a spike in the shortage of tanks and healers for dungeons. This is what this is all about. Tanks and Healers considering offering their time to dps in queues to fast track their queues. Tanks and Healers will have no trouble doing the MSQ dungeons and such right off the bat. If you want them doing it more than once they will probably mostly need a reason to.

No Yoshi P might be completely right and there will be no problems at all in which case you wont see hiring a tank happening, at least for levelling, and all the discussion in this thread will not matter. But if queues jump like a lot of people suspect then tanks and healers hiring themselves out to help dps get through queue times will actually help the situation. The alternative is the tanks and healers just queue for the stuff they want to do, usually only a few times and everyone else has to wait.

As for balance.... I will believe it when I see it. I think there is fundamental issues with how they seem to be thinking about balance. In the current meta, the only way to make PLD or DRK competitive with a WAR as an off tank will end up leading to Job Homogenisation with none of the tanks having any particular strengths. Frankly it might be easier if they outright make WAR an inferior MT and DRK and PLD inferior OTs and give WAR another tank Job to compete with. The primary values you want in a MT vs OT are quite different just as is the case with Main healers and Off healers.

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Originally Posted by EusisLandale

To be fair, high end guilds doing it doesn't mean it's not technically against the rules if it's in there somewhere. It's not hard to find violations of the naming rules, for example. The wording within the rules is even that they may do things about it not that they will.

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Fair, but if you've read the terms (as you seem to have) then you should already know: There's nothing that says you can't trade gil for in game services.

Now if the service itself is a violation (say, paying someone to harass someone), then yeah you'll get in trouble. But that's because of what you're doing, not the transaction.

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Originally Posted by Nominous

You then have to ask yourself if you believe that adding another Tank or Healer for queue times, for the feeling of inclusion, or for flavor, is worth the potential consequences. I think that's where Yoshi-P was coming from. I took it as, "Since it's mostly Tanks and Healers that would be playing potential additions to their roles, I'd like to do them a service by balancing them first, before adding something for popularity sake."

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I'll be frank, I think a lot of people don't care. For them, leveling is content, and they believe that the developers have purposefully robbed them of content this expansion, no matter what the reasoning behind it is. Without pointing fingers at anyone specific, it's not a long shot to say that a good portion of people unhappy with no new tank or healer jobs are people that don't raid, who don't have a vested interest in role balance at the upper tiers of play, and don't mind that PLDs aren't meta for raids or that AST is a bongofest of a balancing nightmare right now. They're not being kicked from Dun Scaith or expert roulette for their job choice, so the fact that the devs are essentially "taking the expansion off" to fix something that doesn't have any effect on the content that they play is hugely disheartening for them.

And who knows? Maybe jack-all will happen except that PLD and WHM will get super DPS potency buffs and AST cards will be gutted to near uselessness so that there's nothing separating them from WHM and SCH. Then that anger will be justified, I think. But for now, I think it's best for everyone involved to take a "wait and see" approach, if only to stem some of the endless flailing and histrionics that are dominating the OF right now.