If parsing is needed to clear challenging content then why is it not in the game?

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Originally Posted by Inori-Yuzuriha

I always report people using parser.

Do the same.

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"Hey, your numbers are really low on this fight."
"LET GO OF MY PURSE! I DON'T KNOW YOU!" *NUTKICK*

Seriously, what do you care if other people can see how well/poorly you're doing?

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Originally Posted by SonKevin

A parser is just a tool that you use to inflate your ego and tell others to 'git gud' with.

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My low skilled casual friend, who cant "show" a good DPS on any DD class say the same words sometimes. I think it is some kind of his protection, some kind of a try to acquit his uselessness

Eh, this dichotomy of the playerbase of views on parsing will never end. There are those who enjoy seeing where they need to improve if at all, and then there are those who don't like to be judged for short comings. Both sides are understandable, but what I don't understand is stuff like -

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Originally Posted by Inori-Yuzuriha

I always report people using parser.

Do the same.

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-which is quite gross. Policing issues that even SE is lax about to get your high rise isn't cute. Yeah if you're genuinely being harassed for putting out low numbers then go for it. But don't go on a highhorse tantrum for people who genuinely use it to improve themselves and even their PS4 friends. Reminds me of those little old ladies who buy their own Radar Gun and sit on the sidewalk for 8 hours a day marking down people who were doing something they don't like.

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Originally Posted by Khemorex

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Raid leaders, their job is to get a group of people through content. If someone isn't pulling high enough DPS, I can speak to them privately after practice and help guide them get their numbers up so they can also be part of a successful team. No, I don't use a parser but I see the benefits if them and I'd say the benefits outweigh the pitfalls.

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Originally Posted by Frowny

I report poor DPS.

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Sooner or later someone on the GM team will wonder why you keep reporting players for playing the game, but not to *your* expectation, and realize all you are doing is trying to harass said players using the GMs as a proxy. So, njoy your ban when it comes then. Reporting someone for something like that is pure harassment.

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Originally Posted by Cenerae

The people that care are already using one. Or do you think that we need parsers for 4 man content suddenly?

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Unfortunately, this is not a true statement. I raid and I care about my DPS; however, as I play on PS4 I do not have access to a parser without becoming a burden upon someone who has. I don't like wasting other people's time and asking them to sit there and feed me numbers seems like a waste that could easily be avoided if I was given the tools to do it myself.

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Originally Posted by SonKevin

A parser is just a tool that you use to inflate your ego and tell others to 'git gud' with.

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By all means, let's completely ignore the legitimate uses a parser has. It is first and foremost a tool to determine DPS output and places of improvement when tight DPS checks need to be passed. To claim it has no value beyond e-peen is an absolutely ridiculous statement if you have ever done Savage content in this game.

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

In this context, I believe that your report card is your completion of certain content. It varies from person to person in terms of what they want to do/play, but all a parser gives you is a number, it doesn't tell you how good of a player you are or how well you play the job and/or role you have. The most it can tell you is that in the specific conditions of the fight you parse, you executed your rotation with X% efficiency. It doesn't tell you how well you avoided avoidable damage, it doesn't tell you how well you did with a mechanic, or how well you did picking up or shedding adds, it doesn't tell you whether or not you were aware enough to see that one of your team mates needed help and you drew an enemy from them to help, etc, etc... All it is is a number. It falls very far short of helping you or anyone else actually get better at their job or role. It can give you bare numbers, but no nuance.

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While you are absolutely right that it is just a number, they are the only numbers which we cannot readily measure. Standing in avoidable damage is easily identifiable. Failed mechanics lead to heavy damage or wipes and are, thus, easily identifiable. Handling adds in proper manner commensurate with your role is again easily identifiable. etc. etc. I can readily observe and determine all of these things as I work through a fight and improve to perform all of these tasks. Without pouring over the battle log with a calculator for 30 minutes, I cannot tell you the % efficiency which I performed my rotation while meeting the other metrics. With DPS checks and enrage timers, this is absolutely a metric of successfully clearing a fight. It cannot be argued that efficiency in performing rotations for ALL party members has 0 bearings on clearing.

DPS checks are their own mechanics. If I move during the full stop mechanic of A10S, I have visual feedback of an attack hitting me as well as my health immediately dropping and possibly death to inform me that I failed that mechanic. If I constantly wipe my group to DPS checks by underperforming, it is much much more difficult to determine that I am the cause with absolutely 0 feedback other than the whole group wipes. As I've seen this argument play out so often, I presume that the response will be "it's everyone's job to perform the DPS check, if you're underperforming then it's up to the group to make up the slack" which is true; however, that's a carry and is likely worse than a failed DPS check as it gives me positive reinforcement that my DPS was good enough when in actuality my DPS wasn't good enough but several of my teammates were overperforming... as I move forward, I will eventually hit more and more walls of DPS whom are not capable of covering up my errors. However, since I have that previous reinforcement that I CAN meet DPS checks, I am less likely to identify myself as the cause of my own inability to progress. This can just as easily lead to people lashing out at their party members as a parser can.

Parsers are indeed a useful tool to be used for either yourself or a group doing the same.


Parsers fail in their use if used to determine how you treat others, especially in a PUG environment.

In fact, I would say in a PUG environment, parsers have very little benefit at all to the individual using them. beyond possibly applying tested abilities to practical application. or in other words, seeing how well you can do that dummy rotation between trash pulls. Beyond, that, I cannot see how a parser will -actually- help in PUG content in the moment.

Yes, it is a valuable tool in your raid belt, but the mentality of most people (especially in mmos as a whole) tend to deteriorate when it comes to 3, 7, or 23 other random people. Superiority is one helluva drug that we know all to many "DF" players overdose on... the only thing keeping most of them quiet is ever present threat of a ban over their head...

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Originally Posted by Fluffernuff

Parsers are indeed a useful tool to be used for either yourself or a group doing the same.


Parsers fail in their use if used to determine how you treat others, especially in a PUG environment.

In fact, I would say in a PUG environment, parsers have very little benefit at all to the individual using them. beyond possibly applying tested abilities to practical application. or in other words, seeing how well you can do that dummy rotation between trash pulls. Beyond, that, I cannot see how a parser will -actually- help in PUG content in the moment.

Yes, it is a valuable tool in your raid belt, but the mentality of most people (especially in mmos as a whole) tend to deteriorate when it comes to 3, 7, or 23 other random people. Superiority is one helluva drug that we know all to many "DF" players overdose on... the only thing keeping most of them quiet is ever present threat of a ban over their head...

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I completely agree that parsers should not dictate behavior.

However, as to your second point for individual benefit, it depends on what you mean by PUG environment. If you mean any and all PUG environments then I completely disagree. If you mean dungeons and 24 mans then I absolutely agree that they have no benefit. However, joining a PF group for Zurvan EX today would be considered a PUG environment and if DPS checks aren't being met, the individual using a parser can determine if they are the ones not completing the mechanics. At no point do I advocate as using it to demoralize others; however, it could be utilized to identify weak links and clue them in that they may be the reason checks aren't met. This, of course, would imply proper knowledge of classes and their capabilities or if even a personal parser were implemented in game, each person would be responsible for their own checks and balances to determine how to progress forward.

Unfortunately you're absolutely right that people enjoy the feeling of superiority; however, I would argue a jackass doesn't need a parser to be an jackass and inclusion of an in-game parser would not necessitate changing the ToS in regards to harassment.

Kinda weird that everyone goes on about how great this community is on places like Gamefaqs and Reddit, yet we're not allowed to have functional tools for data measurement because of harassment fear-mongering.

So which is it? Are we actually a stellar super-nice community that can be trusted with information like this, or do we only appear nice because of strict behavioral censoring and anti-criticism policies?

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Originally Posted by Dement

However, as to your second point for individual benefit, it depends on what you mean by PUG environment. If you mean any and all PUG environments then I completely disagree. If you mean dungeons and 24 mans then I absolutely agree that they have no benefit. However, joining a PF group for Zurvan EX today would be considered a PUG environment and if DPS checks aren't being met, the individual using a parser can determine if they are the ones not completing the mechanics...

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Yeah, hence my first sentence-

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Originally Posted by Fluffernuff

Parsers are indeed a useful tool to be used for either yourself or a group doing the same.

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While, yeah, party finder falls under "Pick Up Group", there's also a separate mentality, and usually far more prep that goes into those... so I wouldn't class party finder under QUITE the same lens... it's more kinda in-between full on randos and a static. I still do prefer the idea of a personal only parser being implemented, at least for the ps4 users at the very least, though. Not having information is more harmful than not.

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Unfortunately you're absolutely right that people enjoy the feeling of superiority; however, I would argue a jackass doesn't need a parser to be an jackass and inclusion of an in-game parser would not necessitate changing the ToS in regards to harassment.

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Indeed, but there's just that threat of it spreading once that behavior is either
A) "Encouraged" by SE with "official" implementation
B) "Supported" by "facts"
C) Readily available

people are people and people suck, after all. if not a parser, they'll find something else to attack people for, it's just something that should at least be considered. too many people here laugh it off as nonsense. yet as someone stated before, even if sarcastic...

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Originally Posted by Frowny

I report poor DPS.

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Only become easier to do, and more prevalent

Anti-parsers dont have a reason for not wanting a parser because they're human. Humans make mistakes. Sometimes, we'll want to fix our mistakes. Sometimes we'll not. But we want it to be our choice. Being outed, constructively or not, positively or not doesn't make humans feel good. At first. Or later. Either way, when playing a game, especially a game of all things and then being told by a program that your numbers aren't up to snuff, it just doesn't feel good.

Numbers are cold. The first impression a parser gives to someone who's not used to it is "your humanely possible efforts suck" or "Conform to a way it should be played". Again, all this over a game. The other side of this spectrum is something like "thought you could sneak in a get carried? Pls". Either way, its still being outed. And when you're outed by a parser, your immediate control over the game is turned over...to other players.

That's my thought on anti-parsers

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Originally Posted by Fluffernuff

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I can certainly understand these concerns and they absolutely are valid. At such an impasse, I believe there to be a compromise which already has all the systems in place (save for the parser itself). I would like them to implement a parser first and foremost in SSS and training dummies and also for content accessed through the Raid Finder only. Additionally, the leader should have options for a group parser, individual parsers, or completely disabled. Queuing without a full group will automatically implement individual parsers. Additionally, the most recent 2 primal extremes will be accessed through the Raid Finder.

This satisfies the valid concerns of the pro-parser crowd by allowing people to receive feedback while practicing their rotations at a dummy as well as the option to see their contribution to content where a parser is actually beneficial be it through a static, a PF group, or a Raid Finder random group. However, it addresses the concerns for jackassery from the anti-parser crowd by keeping the parser out of content that really does not need a parser.

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Originally Posted by Dement

However, it addresses the concerns for jackassery from the anti-parser crowd by keeping the parser out of content that really does not need a parser.

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I feel maybe I went off on a bit of a rant and I lost track of my original intent. and that pretty much sums it up.

I'm fully on board with implemented parsers.... for the content that really benefits from it. Random Duty Finders or even 24 mans or 8-man normals really don't require that sort of investment, and even having it brings very little gain anyway. knowing Random Joe #8345 you'll likely never see again is doing only 4% of the group's damage isn't going to help get the clear.
In such content, pure numbers only highlight who is underperforming, not why. yes, standing in bad is obvious and such, but this is PUG we're talking about, too.

for personal use, this information is utterly pointless. as a solo in a pug setting, the only numbers that matters are your own, and these can also be found elsewhere, like a striking dummy. there is no reason why you needed to see everyone else's numbers here. meaning a huge benefit is completely removed.

For raids, those numbers are much more important, because then you have a source. therefore, you have a means of correction. randoms do not have these benefits, as a core function- quick, concise communication- is removed in those settings.


Which puts a weird sort of focus on things, since the game in general doesnt really revolve around that content. yes, alot of the forum regulars tend to be in that percentage, but most players i bump into don't really hardcore savage raid... alot merely stop at savage primals, if that... and thats only if their weapon either looks nice or has desired stats.

I feel the reason "harrassment" is such a buzzword for parsers is because of this... it IS very much an enabler for such behavior, yet the benefit touted by the pro-side is very handicapped for personal use in random groups. it's a very lopsided topic. I feel both sides are right in different regards, but both are wrong by being dismissive.

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Originally Posted by loreleidiangelo

Kinda weird that everyone goes on about how great this community is on places like Gamefaqs and Reddit, yet we're not allowed to have functional tools for data measurement because of harassment fear-mongering.

So which is it? Are we actually a stellar super-nice community that can be trusted with information like this, or do we only appear nice because of strict behavioral censoring and anti-criticism policies?

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It's both, to be honest. There are two sides of the spectrum and funny enough FFXIV excels at both sides of that very spectrum.

Some of the genuinely nicest random people I've ever met have come from this game. There have been joyous memories created of people I've only partied with once.

And I've also met some of the ignorant, toxic, asses possible in this very same game, in a completely different and unrelated instance. Some that makes me seethe and need to step away from the game to calm my nerves.

The community is great and also have the largest thorns on the rose bud that I've ever seen. Quite the interesting juxtaposition.

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

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The fact that you talk about parsers not being a measurement of how people do their jobs proves to me that you know nothing about what it means to raid in this game, or partake in fights that actually have challenge to them. If you fail a mechanic in a fight even in Alex Normal, fights where where parsers actually matter, you die or your team wipes, full stop. There is no other measurement for that. Avoidable damage becomes 1-shots, failed mechanics become raid wipes. Those are easily measured, those can easily be identified, you can see those. The challenge of savage isn't how many mechanics you can ignore or how much damage you do, but how many 1-shots you can avoid in a given timeframe in order to clear the battle, while outputting maximum damage.

The measurement which we do not have readily available is how much damage you're doing, while also performing your other roles and mechanics. These aren't something you can just ignore or slip beyond, even in EX primals which are pretty trivial as far as high end battles go. You'll understand if you ever actually get to any of those encounters, it's not something that can be readily understood until you've sen it with your own two eyes. Even in The Vault, whenever you run it, it becomes pretty obvious when people are messing up mechanics. This isn't a matter of putting DPS above all, this is a matter of reading out how well you're performing at a given role, while taking all other things into consideration.

Simply put, in most 8 man level 60 content, the only content in the game in which parsers actually do anything that matters, there is no way to 'inflate' your parse by ignoring mechanics, because ignoring mechanics kills you. Again, it's really hard to understand until you've reached max level, or partaken in those battles yourself. I'd ask that you please abstain from arguing on behalf of content that you do not understand, and have not seen for yourself.

when i tried to do Seat of sacrifice EX the Tank parsed so he could judge the F out of the Dps....

unaware that we werent anywhere near it so it was pointless

If the game included a parser, I know exactly where it would go.
Not in the run as you play it.
Never then.

You'd record the run.

Then the playback would include parse.