The OP specifically asked for botting to be included as being allowed in the game's ToS. And, if another poster is right, this isn't their first thread about allowing botting/including it in the ToS.Quote:
Originally Posted by TiaHariberux3
I never once said that only "casuals" bot. I said that I don't see the purpose of ANYONE botting: casual, raider, gatherer, anyone. I asked what purpose does botting serve a "top raider." But I never said that "casuals" don't use bots. I don't care if raiders have 3-4 alts to bypass lockouts. Still don't see the need for them to bot. If they chose to have 3-4 alts, then they need to accept the amount of effort that comes along with it. Sorry, but I disagree with any and all botting for this game, and I don't see 3-4 alts/weekly lockout bypassing as an excuse to bot.
If you don't want to put any effort into the game, and would rather a botting program do the work for you, then I think you shouldn't even be playing. My two cents.
Should the ToS be updated to allow botting?
Printable View
-
12-03-2016, 09:42 AMHyoMinPark
-
12-03-2016, 09:53 AMTexa
I remember running into 2 people who were obviously playing on characters they bought from bots before. They were both level 55, had the exact same jobs leveled, wearing the exact same mix of darklight and ironworks gear, and using yell in Limsa (not shout) to ask about how to join "a guild". When I asked one about the weird gear setup one of them just confusingly told me "this gear is supposed to be appropriate for our levels". They also said that they didn't know what a tell was and this was back before SE cracked down on RMT spam.
The whole thing was surreal and I'd really hate to imagine how they fared going straight into heavensward content when they didn't even understand the difference between basic chat functions. -
12-03-2016, 10:39 AMTiaHariberux3Can you read? I agreed that "top raiders" have also a reason to bot because it sounded like you dont think they do raiders ofc they have to accept the effort but they simply dont. Also Im against botting but to me OP sounded like "if they cant punish botters why not just allow it".Quote:
Originally Posted by HyoMinPark
-
12-03-2016, 10:51 AMHyoMinParkNo need to be rude. But...can you read?Quote:
Originally Posted by TiaHariberux3
Sounds to me like the OP wants botting to be added to the ToS. The second sentence sounds like they would like it to be allowed so that they, themselves, can legally bot.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vnolan
While it's true that some elude bans, SE posts notices on the Lodestone about the accounts they punish for RMT and illicit activity. That includes botting. GMs can't be everywhere to stop all the bots, which is why they need help from the community to find them. If people don't report, they don't get banned. However, unfortunately, some still manage to stick around, as other posters have noted. This, however, does not equate to SE/GMs not policing, or just ignoring the bots. I know that some I have reported have been banned from this game (though, they probably just made another account to circumvent that ban anyways).
Again, MY OPINION: I do not think botting has a place in this game. Regardless if it's for gathering, or if you are some world first raider who sees the need for 500 alts to bypass lockouts. If a raider has 3-4 alts and chooses to bot rather than play the game, that just tells me that they're being lazy. Doesn't give SE a reason to legalize botting, or give, not just "top raiders", but ANYONE, an excuse to bot, except to fuel their own laziness.
My quote about "What purpose does that even serve????" is a rhetorical question. I already know what purpose it serves: fueling and promoting laziness. I wasn't looking for an answer. -
12-03-2016, 11:19 AMAtoliThat has literally been asked for already. A few weeks back, there was a thread here by a Roegadyn that asked SE to just legally let us buy Gil directly from them in the Mogstation so we do not 'have to' go to competitors :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by MilesSaintboroguh
The point is to let the bot do the non-enjoyable parts for you so you can only do what you like without missing out on the rewards for doing what you consider boring or a waste of time. So for example, if you enjoy endgame raiding, you ofc do that yourself. But that boring, pesky daily roulette? You'd rather skip that and watch some Netflix instead. But you need the tomes to gear up for raiding, so - as a normal player - you resignate and do those roulettes even when you do not want to. The botter instead starts up his bot, then goes relax on the couch while you struggle to get through the dungeon with a healer that only uses Cure I and has problems following behind and is completely unresponsive.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stormfur
Same with gathering, leveling alts, etc. of course.
I understand the thought-process behind it, but I am still very glad it is illegal. -
12-03-2016, 11:27 AMHyoMinParkGood lord. Missed that thread, but....good lord.Quote:
Originally Posted by Atoli
Eh, different folks, different strokes. But, I guess I've always been the type who is like:Quote:
The point is to let the bot do the non-enjoyable parts for you so you can only do what you like without missing out on the rewards for doing what you consider boring or a waste of time. So for example, if you enjoy endgame raiding, you ofc do that yourself. But that boring, pesky daily roulette? You'd rather skip that and watch some Netflix instead. But you need the tomes to gear up for raiding, so - as a normal player - you resignate and do those roulettes even when you do not want to.
"I don't feel like doing my dailies today." So, I just don't do them.
"I feel like watching Friends re-runs instead." So, I just log or AFK in my FC's or bondmate's house, and watch Friend's re-runs. XD
I'm glad it's not allowed, and I still don't really see the need for it. I know people will be lazy (I can be extremely lazy myself), but if you don't wanna play the game, then just don't play. Or don't do the things you don't wanna do. But that's just how I always think about those sort of things, I guess. ^^;; -
12-03-2016, 11:36 AMLyraele
I'll just go with "no". I really don't think encouraging bot's is a good idea, at all.
-
12-03-2016, 11:48 AMMihaelB
You might as well just write yourself a script on excel with level prompts going "GREAT JOB YOU SCRIPTED 24 HOURS".
-
12-03-2016, 11:55 AMAvenger
No. If you desire a game reward but don't think it is worth whatever time and effort it requires (maybe because it is boring, tedious, difficult, random, or just not fun) then it makes sense to avoid it and do something else.
Bots detract from the game experience and are appropriately forbidden. -
12-03-2016, 11:58 AMAvengerI recommend something like Progress Quest or other "fire and forget" RPGs.Quote:
Originally Posted by MihaelB
-
12-03-2016, 03:46 PMVnolanWhat is the definition of 'right away'? At what point would you think something isn't being done about them? A few hours? A day? A few days? How about a week? I'm currently at a week with nothing being done.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cenerae
-
12-03-2016, 03:48 PMDustytomeYou're probably going to be waiting around 2 months just to see if anything is done to them, the process is extremely slow.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vnolan
-
12-03-2016, 04:00 PMRufalusSome people I've observed doing it for multiple years and still do. When they aren't around to play, character gets put into bot routines to farm this and that. Gathering, fates, MGP/card. This on their main characters where a lot of real progress has also been done through normal play when they are at the computer. I'm not doing any reporting for bots at the moment since no action is taken.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vnolan
-
12-03-2016, 06:17 PMbardabooYou might want to reword this.... sounds like an admission of bot useQuote:
Originally Posted by Vnolan
-
12-03-2016, 06:25 PMMisteTry 1-2 years and counting.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dustytome
That's how long some bots/speedhackers have been around and still playing after being reported by multiple people. I'm not talking vague either, very obvious bots. -
12-03-2016, 06:33 PMSynestraI have actually played a F2P MMO that had ingame botting program but reason why it was there was extreme nature of grinding in it so it was kinda must have.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zojha
-
12-03-2016, 09:54 PMRoth_TrailfinderTo me, it sounded like he reported a bot a week ago and still has not seen anything done to that bot. I've heard of people who have reported bots for months, and still have not seen anything done after more than a year.Quote:
Originally Posted by bardaboo
SE takes a *very* long time dealing with non-RMT advertising bots. -
12-03-2016, 11:32 PMVidu
I dont see the logic behind the argumentation though - why does "nothing gets done" should equal "lets just allow it all together"? With that change of the ToS they couldnt even do anything anymore even if they wanted to (and had the time and ressource to check it). I dont understand why you conclude "Hey, nothing gets done, lets just make it legal!"
-
12-03-2016, 11:53 PMNiraves
The short answer is : No.
The long answer is : Um, no. Thats stupid and you should feel bad for even suggesting it. No. No. No. And no. -
12-04-2016, 12:10 AMClethoria
Why not just play a game where botting is ingrained in game? They exist you know. One of which literally gives you exp for idling in town. And with all these games I don't ever recall RMT activity.
-
12-04-2016, 01:16 AMRiardon
Stop doing drugs seriously.
-
12-04-2016, 03:44 AMMoonlite
The OP seems a little off. To the other people that wonder about the banning. SE policy since 11 has been allowed bots and rmt to grow and multiply and sink their roots into the game and then pull them all out at once.
No proof that SE policy is better then the other policy. They have never discussed why they think this is a better system. Some speculation is it is the cheapest system to maintain with the least amount of accidental bans. Another idea is imagine the game design just in shards for crafting and they went up to thousands of gil per shard. This system also helps them maintain some poorer game designs (tin hat theory, but I liked it). It does nothing to help the current player farming some an item to sell or use to save gil. -
12-04-2016, 03:58 AMVanilleFang
Uh, no. Just because people are doing it doesn't mean it should be allowed.
-
12-04-2016, 04:43 AMVnolanBecause then not only those that realize that it's not enforced will benefit from it. Looking at it from a different view, how much time and energy would it save the community if they no longer had to make those reports which, according to other posters in this thread, had no effect?Quote:
Originally Posted by Vidu
Not talking about RMT or the obvious alts made to grind. I'm talking about people on their mains. If what you say is true and they are removed in waves, people wouldn't be taking the risk. Worth mentioning, one of them in the current group I had reported a while back.Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonlite
-
12-04-2016, 04:58 AMHyoMinPark
Except it is enforced. Just because some bots manage to avoid getting banned for months, or even years, doesn't equate to SE not enforcing or not caring about it. By that logic, you could say "Well, speed limits aren't really being enforced in my city. Why don't we just remove them/make speeding legal to benefit not only the select few that speed, but everyone?" Doesn't make sense.
I've reported bots. And they were banned. Others have reported bots that, unfortunately, haven't gotten banned yet. But, again, just because some have managed to stick around doesn't mean SE doesn't care to get rid of them. Otherwise, they would allow botting. Heck, they'd probably add bot packages to the Mogstation and try to profit off of it.
I'd rather fill out reports for bots than SE add it to the ToS to promote even more laziness. Maybe that's just me, though. -
12-04-2016, 04:48 PMVnolanThen why would I be seeing A12 mounts used while botting?Quote:
Originally Posted by HyoMinPark
TIL risking the lives of other people is the same as automating gameplay in a videogame.Quote:
Originally Posted by HyoMinPark
Were the bots using hacks, or were they automating gameplay for FATEs and gathering? How many times would you report a specific bot? If more than once, how often? How long did it take for action to get taken? How did you know they were banned? How did you know they were banned for botting?Quote:
Originally Posted by HyoMinPark
Starting to see the issue here? -
12-04-2016, 05:39 PMRubyCirha
Stop being lazy and play the game or play any game frome perfect world they have in game bits most of the time or even better they had a game where you could meditation in the city's and lvl up by just siting there with the game running and lvl to max god wtf is wrong with today's gamers
If you Wana add a bot to the game add a bot that auto reports people for boting -
12-04-2016, 05:52 PMHyoMinParkCan you prove they're botting? Why do you think they're botting? Are they actually using speed hacks, and teleporting across the map like the gathering bots/BLM and ARC bots do? Or are they just silent, and that's why you equate them to using a botting service? Genuine questions here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vnolan
Doesn't change that you're wanting something that "isn't being enforced" to be made allowable just because you seem to think that slow process in banning bots = not being enforced. Let's try another example then: "Movie pirating isn't being enforced. Why not just legalize it so that not only a select few benefit from it?" Granted a lot of people get away with pirating movies and music, but that doesn't mean that people who are caught doing it walk away scot-free.Quote:
TIL risking the lives of other people is the same as automating gameplay in a video game.
Substitute any example for something that you think "isn't being enforced," yet is still illegal. Doesn't change the fact that it isn't legal, and should be allowed just because you think it's not being enforced, or that people don't think it's an issue. If the devs wanted to allow botting, they would just allow botting. Yet, they haven't. And the ToS explicitly prohibits such practices. Tells me that they care enough about botting to not want to allow it, regardless of how slow the process is to weed out the bots.
Both. They were using speed hacks to teleport across the maps in Thanalan to simulate gameplay through the MSQ, and they were using hacks to disappear and attack mobs from underground. I happened to find them because I clicked on one, and fracked them as they moved underground. See: BLM RMT bots. Not the same as these people supposedly on their main's that are botting, but doesn't change that they were still bots. I only report bots once. And a simple Lodestone search can answer if they were banned. If you reported them two months ago while they were around level 45/50, and you see on their Lodestone profile that the bot is level 45/50 still, probably safe to assume they were banned. I'm not obsessed enough to check every day, so whether it was a day, five days, ten days, twenty, etc., I can't provide you an answer to that.Quote:
Were the bots using hacks, or were they automating gameplay for FATEs and gathering? How many times would you report a specific bot? If more than once, how often? How long did it take for action to get taken? How did you know they were banned? How did you know they were banned for botting?
Botting is botting whether it's RMT BLM doing it to gather Gil to send to other RMT bots to try and sell for money, bot gatherers gathering shards to destroy the market, and stock up for future RMT transactions, legit players automating shard gathering, or a bot running a dungeon with you where all they do is cast Physick the entirety of the run (even when you aren't taking damage!). I've seen them all. Allowing botting in this game would only make it easier for RMT bot to circumvent bans, as now the bans would have to be justified by actually CATCHING the bot in the act of RMT (shouting adverts or actually trading large sums of money to a player who bought it), rather than using evidence of speed hacking or whatnot to ban them.
If you're (general "you" here) so lazy that you don't want to do simple FATEs, run a leveling dungeon, or gather shards (or maintain these multiple Alts that all these top tier raiders have), then you shouldn't be playing the game. If you don't want to do these mundane tasks, then just don't do them. If you "have" to run X Roulette to get X amount of whatever tomes to buy whatever piece of gear you need for your character, well, sorry. Doesn't give a reason to bot. If you "have" to maintain 3-4 alts to bypass raid lockouts, well perhaps you should have thought about that time investment before committing to it. Not an excuse to bot. If you would rather watch Netflix than heal ARF for the umpteenth time, watch Netflix instead. Not like ARF will go anywhere. That's just my opinion though.
The only issue I see is that you're so adamant to defend botting. :/Quote:
Starting to see the issue here?
And I still can't understand the concept of why one would pay for a game, but not want to play it, and rather have a bot do it for them. Even if it's for things like FATEs or dungeons or gathering. Don't wanna do those activities? Then don't do them. I hate gathering. I don't particularly enjoy doing it. I despise FATEs, especially after Yokai. I don't want to touch another FATE for a very long time. And, some days, I just don't feel like doing my daily roulettes or beast tribes. Guess what? I just don't do it. I come back to it when I feel inspired to do it. -
12-04-2016, 11:43 PMViduSo what you're saying is "I want to use bots too to let them play this game for me!"Quote:
Originally Posted by Vnolan
Nope, honey, just nope, not gonna happen - for various reasons. They shouldnt allow it and it would be nice if they could do more about those bots, but it all comes down to manpower etc. They dont need to allow it though, just because they cant enforce it on a global level and ban everyone right away.
You also dont seem to realise that its not as easy as just saying "yeah, you can bot as much as you want" - bots are currently third party tools which means they're a security risk as explained in the ToS. SE will and should never allow something that could cause potational harm to their product and/or customers. For the most "obvious" bot-issues, like grinding, there are already legal "solutions" in the game: you can grove shard-plants, you can send out your retainers for shards/crystals/mats etc. There is absolutly no need to allow botting for the normal player... -
12-04-2016, 11:51 PMMilesSaintboroguh
If OP feels like botting should be a thing because botters are never punished, then why is he trying to justify botting so much? Go bot yourself and see how long it goes for. What do you got to lose?
-
12-05-2016, 12:21 AMLone-wolfe-02
OP if you think they aren't punished then why not go ahead and use them yourself?, you clearly want to use them so what's stopping you.
-
12-05-2016, 12:37 AMVidu
...can someone explain to me btw how botting gets people their A12S kills? OP keeps brining that up (how botters are having the A12-mount) but I fail to see the connection? Is he assuming that they bought their kills? With gil earned by using bots? That sounds extremly ridicolous... but I cant see how using a bot in that fight would be any good..
-
12-05-2016, 01:06 AMTiaHariberux3Well extremely ridiculous? Not really there are ppl who bot gil to buy runs but maybe OP means the "no clip" etc stuff that are included in most bots I can remember players used it in pvp to be under the ground and just attack while arent being able to be attacked by others.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vidu
-
12-05-2016, 01:18 AMVnolanThe players are all lv60 gatherers in ironworks. They zone in near the aetheryte and perform some conversions. Regardless of where they are in reference to the aetheryte when they've zoned in, they will always move on foot to the same location before mounting up and flying away. Based on where they load in, I can even tell you if they'll use sprint before moving. It is entirely possible that a dozen different players all perform the same actions, including moving to the same location, with no deviation whatsoever from the script, but it's much, much more likely that they're bots. Above info aside, I've witnessed one in the group FATE botting in N Thanalan and I reported one a while back for using a gathering bot which was much more obvious.Quote:
Originally Posted by HyoMinPark
I suspected some hacking was involved. Popular opinion seems to be that nothing is done when they are simply automating gameplay.Quote:
Originally Posted by HyoMinPark
So if someone is lv60, there would be no way to know if they have been banned or if they just haven't been online?Quote:
Originally Posted by HyoMinPark
They use bots to gather items/gil for them while they aren't playing. It's not hard at all to understand why they do it.Quote:
Originally Posted by HyoMinPark
I mentioned the mount once. I've seen the mount used by people performing the actions described above, as in, I've seen them move to the spot, summon the a12s mount and fly off. I mentioned the mount to help convey the idea that these aren't simply dummy accounts we're talking about, but to also show how brazen they are.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vidu
-
12-05-2016, 02:30 AMHyoMinParkOr they are all heading to the same unspoiled/empherical node? Just because multiple players all move to the same location doesn't mean that they are botting. Have you ever seen gatherers at an empherical node before, or an unspoiled node--be it level 50 or 60? Have you ever seen them all hovering on their mounts above it right before they spawn? Just because several different players spawn in the Forelands and all head to the same area does not equate to botting. They're probably heading towards the same node that spawns at a certain time in-game. Unless these conversations they "perform" are the EXACT same EVERY TIME they spawn in, I don't see this as proof of botting.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vnolan
Now if they were all melted into the other like you see the RMT bots, could probably assume they're botting as most players at the keyboard won't be melted into the other like the RMT bots do. But just moving in unison to the same area doesn't really mean anything, unless you start seeing them teleporting around.
I don't think that's the popular opinion here. The popular opinion is that botting shouldn't be allowed period, and that the process for punishing bots STILL OCCURS, albeit at a very, very, VERY slow rate. Not that people aren't punished for it.Quote:
I suspected some hacking was involved. Popular opinion seems to be that nothing is done when they are simply automating gameplay.
While that's true that you can't tell with a 60, unless you start to notice that their character profile never updates on the lodestone (it changes after a while if you change jobs in-game), are you obsessing so much that you're stalking a person's lodestone profile waiting to see some action? It seems you want some notification of an individual being banned from this game, but the GMs will never give you such notification.Quote:
So if someone is lv60, there would be no way to know if they have been banned or if they just haven't been online?
At the risk of sounding snarky: so, they do it to fuel their own laziness? My statement isn't asking for WHY people bot, as in what do they need the bots to do for them. It's asking what kind of mindset do these people even have. Why pay for a game and not play it, but let a bot do it instead? Makes as much sense to me as a football bat.Quote:
They use bots to gather items/gil for them while they aren't playing. It's not hard at all to understand why they do it.
As I mentioned above, just players moving in unison with each other isn't proof of botting. They could easily be heading to the same node that spawns at a certain time in-game. Serious gatherers have schedules for hitting all the important nodes that spawn within an Eorzean day. Unless these players perform the exact same conversations each time they load in (automatic/scripted conversations), and move so much in unison that they are melting into the other, you can't use your example as proof of anything.Quote:
I mentioned the mount once. I've seen the mount used by people performing the actions described above, as in, I've seen them move to the spot, summon the a12s mount and fly off. I mentioned the mount to help convey the idea that these aren't simply dummy accounts we're talking about, but to also show how brazen they are.
My stance remains the same: bots have no place in this game. Too lazy to do your (general "you" here, again) gathering? Well, sounds like a personal problem. Doesn't give any reasons to use bots. Wanna make Gil? Make it like the legit players do: using your own keyboard and mouse/controller. Not a bot. -
12-05-2016, 03:00 AMSilkaNThey don't want to waste their time gathering and do other stuff while they are online. Maybe they view gathering as an annoying hassle but realize that it's necessary for them, so they use bots to avoid doing it themselves.Quote:
Originally Posted by HyoMinPark
It doesn't matter whether they are lazy or don't have much time to play each week, there are people out there who are using bots in online games for exactly these reasons.
Just as there are people who are willing to buy Gil from RMT sellers.
You want to know why they are doing this? Because it's safe enough for them to do so and doesn't take away anything from their enjoyment of the game. In fact, it makes it even more enjoyable for them since they don't have to "waste" their time on doing the farming themselves.
Either you are trolling, or incredibly naive. -
12-05-2016, 03:24 AMHyoMinParkNot trolling. Neither am I naive. I'm aware that people bot. Still doesn't mean that I agree with the practice of it, agree with the mindset/reasoning behind it, nor think it should be allowed. I don't think you read, nor understand, my posts. And I wasn't aware that disagreeing with the OP on their stance regarding botting, disagreeing with botting in general, or considering it a lazy practice, was considered "trolling" or me being "incredibly naive."Quote:
Originally Posted by SilkaN
If they don't want to "waste" time on farming mats, then they probably shouldn't have picked up gathering. No one "has" to do anything in this game. One does not "have" to gather, one chooses to. And yeah, it's safe...until one of them ends up on the unlucky side of the banhammer. But, I guess that's up to them, if they are willing to risk their account. And I don't see how enjoyable a game can be if you aren't playing it, but again. Perhaps that's just me. Different folks, different strokes. -
12-05-2016, 04:30 AMSilkaNBefore you accuse me of not reading your posts, please do read mine. I didn't call younaive for disagreeing with OP, I called you naive because the whole concept of wanting to avoid activities some players might consider a hassle seemed completely foreign to you. You are trying to defend viewpoints I didn't even cricitize.Quote:
Originally Posted by HyoMinPark
Actually, it's not just you, but also the majority of the playerbase (me included). But there are, just like in real life, people who want to avoid hard work and still get the same benefits / rewards as everyone else. I am not trying to justifiy their behavior, but it baffles me that you even have to askQuote:
Originally Posted by HyoMinPark
That is why I was calling you naive.Quote:
Originally Posted by HyoMinPark
-
12-05-2016, 04:47 AMHyoMinPark
On phone and it's not letting me quote for some dumb reason.
@SilkaN - I did read your post, but I guess I misunderstood your intent behind it. I have always been of the mindset of, if something is considered a hassle to me, and is not a necessity (to use an example from FFXIV: gathering--optional activity, optional classes to level, and not entirely necessary to in-game progression), then I just don't do it. I don't use third-party services to do things for me. I understand people have different mindsets from myself. Doesn't mean that I'm still not baffled by them. Just as I am baffled by people in real life that don't want to put in any effort in life to earn things, be it money or whatever.
Just because I fail to understand a mindset, in my opinion, I still don't think that makes me naive. -
12-05-2016, 05:26 AMZojhaBelieve it or not - without rewards in the mix, just about everyone has that mindset.Quote:
Originally Posted by HyoMinPark
The issue stems from the fact that the content comes with rewards. This is what causes a problem for people: They want the goal but they do not want the way. So ideally, they'd like the way to be done by someone else and come back at the end. That's a notion that's easy to relate to when you consider chores in real life: Washing the dishes, cleaning the rooms, dusting the cupboards, washing the clothes, buying groceries etc. Most people would "love" to skip those and have a clean flat/clothes/dishes anyway, so if a robot or wizard comes along to do just that for them, they'd gladly take the option (Though I'd be sceptical of wizards!).
That mindset isn't even an issue in single-player games. I haven't seen a single person complaining about people using the console in skyrim to skip dungeon parts or create 99 iron bars out of nowhere for some crafting. If they don't like the process, they can just skip it, who cares?
In multiplayer games however, that's an issue, because it affects people and usually negatively. That's why cheats are usually disabled in multiplayer - bots included.