DRG and NIN weren't sidelined. World second and world third A8S used DRG/NIN without a MNK. The world third even used an AST. Its literally been proven mantra was never needed in early A8S progression. The world first having a MNK didn't change DRG/NIN being the more popular combination in A8S. MNK also got destroyed by DRG/NIN in early clear rates on FFlogs for creator. The first week DRG had 10x more clears then MNK (and MNK hasn't caught up since then. 1153 A12S DRG clears vs 635 for MNK). MNK is a useless job right now and the only reason to use one is if you can't find a more skilled DRG/NIN for your static.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian_
Monk in the "Savage" community
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11-30-2016, 03:18 PMecho78
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11-30-2016, 03:41 PMBrian_This is the bottom line:Quote:
Originally Posted by Exiled_Tonberry
Both have value in progression, neither is needed to clear, and both are pointless after clearing.
At the end of the day, unless your goal is to produce an inflated parse or faster clear time purely for bragging purposes (that most educated people will see as BS when they check your balance up-time), it doesn't matter what you pick.
And, speed-runs have value because they test your ability to adapt, optimize and play to perfection. Not because of the resulting parse you post to fflogs. For the actual purpose of a speed-run, which is to push yourself as a player and push the job / comp you are playing to its limit, it doesn't matter if you bring WHM or AST. -
11-30-2016, 03:55 PMBrian_And it was also proven that the DPS boost from NIN / DRG was never needed in early A8S progression or A12S progression for that matter. If MNK is a useless job based on necessity then so are DRG and NIN.Quote:
Originally Posted by echo78
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11-30-2016, 05:35 PMecho78What? More DPS = push phases, skip mechanics, kill things faster. All of creator savage is proof of this. Skipping most of A9S, tank busters and many mechanics in A10S, limit cuts/optical sights/lapis in A11S and the "earthshaker" voids in A12S. More DPS is the opposite of useless. It makes fights easier.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian_
There is a difference between "viable" and "optimal" and MNK isn't close to DRG/NIN right now. -
11-30-2016, 05:42 PMBrian_And none of that is needed. There is a difference between "necessary" and "preferred" as well as "useless" and "suboptimal."Quote:
Originally Posted by echo78
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11-30-2016, 06:53 PMecho78
If you enjoy having less DPS and having to do mechanics that could have been skipped, feel free to. There isn't a single fight in the game where monk is useful compared to DRG/NIN. That literally makes monk useless. You can use a PLD in A12S but why would you want to when DRK is superior? Because you like PLD more? That's fine but you are making the fight harder by playing PLD. The same thing applies to MNK vs DRG/NIN in every fight.
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11-30-2016, 07:23 PMBrian_
But you clearly still play monk and your static skill cleared all the current content with you. So, clearly, for both you and your static, monk was quite useful. Was it harder? I'm sure you'll say yes. But, it clearly wasn't a disadvantage large enough to stop you or your teammates.
I'm also pretty sure that if you decided on finding a new static to join as a monk, you wouldn't have any issues.
So, after clearing, what more is there? If this game really rewarded optimized play or required it like back in Gordias, I wouldn't just be on your side of this argument, I'd be actively trying to convert dissenters. Nothing requiring the min-maxing of early-prog A3S exists anymore. Nothing gating a specific job out of their clear for 4 more weeks like A4S exists anymore.
Again, the reality is all the extra DPS is useful for is farming and fflogs. There really weren't any significant phase skips that were necessary or even particularly meaningful in early Creator prog that a MNK comp couldn't achieve. For the people who still haven't cleared A12S or can't find statics, monk is one of the last things they should be blaming. -
11-30-2016, 08:07 PMCookieMonstaIn fact, iirc PLD + MNk was preferred in a8s cuz it was safer with super mantra and the fact you could shelltron the punches.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian_
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11-30-2016, 08:11 PMrandysquirrelas it should, and will always, beQuote:
Originally Posted by Zorixas
I used to love reminding our drg that my culinarian had a higher mDEF than him -
11-30-2016, 10:45 PMExiled_Tonberry
@Brian: I think you're underestimating how much phase skips help, now and during progression.
For instance with an optimal party, you can kill the A9 boss nearly before Faust drops, and Faust himself can be killed on the first platform that's going up in lava for a quick return to the boss.
Without an AST/Ninja/ Dragoon comp, you're greatly reducing the chances of skipping these phases, and what are you getting in return? Mantra, that we by no means even slightly need? Dragon Kick?
The problem with these type of defensive tools is that once you're past the point of needing it, it's 100% useless, while dps utility only gets better as gear gets better. -
12-01-2016, 01:56 AMBrian_
I'm not underestimating how much phase skips help. I actually do and clear the content and parse well. I cleared A9S week 1. I think I know what helps during progression.
I think you're vastly overstating how much phase skips matter or how incapable MNK is of skipping the same phases. A9S was a walk in the park day 1. You think it matters at all for anything other than bragging rights that you can skip the Faust add? Are groups that have the DPS to demolish A9S struggling with Faust and other mechanics they sleepwalked through on patch day or something? Should they be kicking monks from their statics because they can't speed-run A9S faster? And how did this matter during progression? Groups weren't killing A9S before Faust during prog nor were they killing Faust on the first platform. Some at that point killed on the third platform and the difference between NIN / DRG vs. MNK and AST vs. WHM didn't make or break that push.
I'll be blunt with you. You sound like you have no idea what you're talking about. You're an armchair raider complaining about things you have no experience with and situations that don't effect you.
You're complaining about stuff people do with farm-status content they massively over-gear and out-skill and think it is at all relevant to job balance in progression. -
12-01-2016, 02:17 AMExiled_Tonberry
The account I post with is an alt. I happen to raid in savage, and I happened to have cleared second on my server.
I know what helped push us forward and what didn't.
In A12s, when dealing with the soak puddles, it's possible to skip the second set of them if we can push the boss to death fast enough.
With our composition consisting of a Monk and WHM, we were at around 10% of the boss when the second set came out.
Asking the Monk to roll over to MCH, and the WHM to roll over to AST, we were able to down the boss DURING the first set. We pushed the boss so much with the added dps we were able to skip a mechanic we heavily struggled with and cleared.
So when you tell me pushing dps and skipping phases is not a big deal, i don't believe it. Monk simply doesn't offer the dps alone to make up a near 10% difference in damage. Not once did mantra or Cure III ever decide the fate of the raid, or ease the burden. They were both ultimately useless tools. -
12-01-2016, 02:23 AMExiled_Tonberry
Can't edit post on mobile so double posting*
Now yes, in the long run bringing a Monk or bringing a WHM over other more optimal jobs isn't that big of a deal. We surely can still clear content. But there are some jobs that simply make things easier for everyone.
Unfortunately, Mantra doesn't save us from anything. If it had added mitigation perhaps it would see more use, but the most use we saw out of it was using it prepull for a stronger adlo.
Hypercharge/Balance is better than Mantra and Cure III. And for as long as I raided not once have I ever wished we had a mantra to deal with a mechanic. Cure III I have, but not Mantra. It's underwhelming utility that doesn't make up for what other jobs bring. -
12-01-2016, 02:47 AMSendohJin
what a terrible time to bring up this topic.
as if all the new jobs and job changes in 4.0 won't change raid balance for everything.
nothing needs to be fixed for Creator Savage. -
12-01-2016, 02:53 AMKhubla_Kha
This is why word of mouth is not a good source of accurate information. Monk isn't behind in damage. It's behind in that it provides defensive utility in a game more oriented towards offensive utility. Monks are still up there leading melee DDs. It is the missing raid wide 15% crit bonus and piercing bonus for your brd/mch that lags behind (or slashing debuff & threat modifiers that allow tanks to sit in offensive stance rather than defensive), as others have said. This should not be represented as Monks not being sufficient damage dealers. I see this sort of thing repeated about monks far too often. Yes, there is an issue in that offensive utility far better meshes with the current trajectory of game/raid design by the dev team, but a Monk still provides top notch personal offense and a raid wide defensive/healing oriented cool down that can help you smooth over miscues/mistakes.
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12-01-2016, 07:32 AMNolaie
It's true but don't forget like in a8s monk was very useful specially on a8s last phase during j storm for groups who cleared it with very low ilvl gear and world 1st had a monk its just when people try to go for speed runs and have everything on farm they would rather have a nin than a monk since healers probably have so much gear to even need any mantra and yes its possible without a monk but if you ask me id say monk would've been much more useful than a ninja for safer progression fights and its just creator being less healing check than midas and if the future savage is like creator then yeah monk will need some buffs since people will just prog without even bothering with this class
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12-02-2016, 12:57 PMBrian_Thanks for providing a perfect example of what's going wrong in this topic and why people with your mentality are just delusional.Quote:
Originally Posted by Exiled_Tonberry
My static runs WHM MNK. We skip the 2nd void entirely. Plenty of groups with MNKs and WHMs or sub-optimal DPS comps skip 2nd void without issue, too.
If you want to prove your point, link your parses. I'm 100% sure what we'll see is a bunch of under-performing players while you're here blaming WHM and MNK for your inefficiencies as a group.
MNK and WHM aren't the reason you had bad DPS. YOUR GROUP is the reason they had bad DPS. Instead of real introspection, individual accountability, and improvement, you blame job balance instead.
What's happening here is what happens in a lot of other gaming genres where balance is a concern. In competitive fighting games, tier lists exist but unless the game is extremely imbalanced, those tier lists are irrelevant to anyone not playing at a high enough level where the imbalances decide matches. In non-mirror RTS genre matces, you'll have balance issues where one side is favored but those issues are irrelevant when the real reason you lost was poor micro / macro mechanics or poor tactics / strategy.
Earlier, someone linked a list of job representation in speed-runs. That list is irrelevant to 99% of this player-base and yet you have people using information of that nature to decide how their A11S progression team should function 3 months after A12S was already cleared by all jobs.
If we're using anecdotal evidence, then I'll give you mine. Our main healer tried to play AST early in 3.4 because of the buffs but promptly abandoned it during our 2nd week A11S prog and still dislikes playing AST in A11S+ even to this day. Now, he's the type of player that gets extremely defensive and is very shut-off to criticism so he blamed the job like you would. He blamed the lack of Cure III, assize and the resulting weaker AoE healing amongst other things. He even blamed his SCH co-healer for not healing more to offset AST's "weaker healing." So, he switched back to WHM and we cleared without issue.
But, unlike you and him, my reaction is not to cry imbalance. It's to realize that balance is irrelevant because it's more apparent that skill (both his individual skill and our skill as a group at playing around the characteristics of AST) is the more relevant issue. He didn't transition to AST until after 3.4 and was still trying to wrap his head around card priorities. There was no way he was going to play the job as well as the AST mains that were solo-healing A12S while we were still in prog. I wasn't incorrectly using balance that's only relevant at a level far beyond just clearing content to inform my understanding of what matters for everything else. -
12-02-2016, 04:26 PMExiled_Tonberry
Brian, I get what you're saying. I really do.
The usefulness of a job is in the skills of th player using it.
What I'm assuming if that we're talking about an AST and WHM of equal skill level.
I know WHM can clear content, it's viable. But that doesn't change the fact that it's underwhelming and lacking. -
12-02-2016, 05:10 PMSpookyGhostTbf, WHM is only suddenly "lacking" because they decided to overbuff AST. Nobody was complaining about WHM's toolkit until AST suddenly had everything WHM had + mitigation + cards. But I will agree that if AST remains like this WHM needs to shine in some regard as currently it's just a worse AST.Quote:
Originally Posted by Exiled_Tonberry