What's your opinion about the game's story?

Something that annoys me with the story is how they're always using Allagan technology as some plot device for really bad things happening.
We had Dalamud for 1.0, Ultima Weapon for 2.0, Azys Lla for 3.0 and then soon enough we'd see Omega Weapon.

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Originally Posted by Naunet

They could easily tell the story of the Ishgard-dragon war without turning Ishgard into an obnoxious and stereotypical caricature of Catholicism.

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I agree with you 100%. I always heard that FF loves to use religion/church = evil kind of thing in their story and I saw it already at XIII. So I was more than disappointed that it was exactly the same in this game too. The pope is evil, the church bad too and many more things. Isnt it getting enough if your fanbase already says that this guy must be evil because he is the pope? How about taking a new route..

Oh and I also dislike that behind everything bad thing in history are the Ascians..Come on the races should have enough bad guys in their groups to do some bad things all on their own..no need to connect it to the Ascians the whole time..

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Originally Posted by Naunet

And, uhm... I feel like my post has gone on long enough so I'll stop there. To be honest, there are a lot of other plot points I could bring up, but I think I've hit the main points. xD

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I really can't help but wonder what the minor points were, too. In complete agreement with everything you've listed here.

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Originally Posted by Alleo

Oh and I also dislike that behind everything bad thing in history are the Ascians..Come on the races should have enough bad guys in their groups to do some bad things all on their own..no need to connect it to the Ascians the whole time..

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To be fair: Whenever there is a bad guy, the ascians are more than eager to support them, because it helps their goal of spreading chaos. So even if there are independent bad guys around, chances are the ascians would get involved sooner or later, unless it's a minor evil with no potential to be used for their own plot.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

I really can't help but wonder what the minor points were, too. In complete agreement with everything you've listed here.

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Haha okay. I'll elaborate on the Garleans first, and that will probably lead into my "inconsistency" point with regards to how characters state a problem is vs how it ends up being presented in the action.

The Garlean Empire is, on paper, terrifying. Their military technology and clout, from the way everyone talks about it, would have the capability of wiping Eorzea clean. The foot soldiers alone are supposedly possessing of extremely deadly weapons. Basically, the outline of the story (and all of the character dialogue) sets the Garleans up as this nigh-unstoppable force that we really only have a chance of defeating if we can trick them into making mistakes. Which we do. Over and over and over again. SE wrote themselves into a corner. While attempting to make an intimidating Big Bad, they created an empire fool of bumbling buffoons. There was only a single time they "won" to a degree where they felt like a threat - after the Waking Sands were invaded and the majority of the Scions were killed. That was a powerful moment, but although characters continue to bring up the spectre of that day, it's not a threat that's ever really followed up on. Thus the Garleans end up looking like incompetent would-be-conquerors who got lucky a time or two but are otherwise easily outsmarted and outfought by the Good Guys.

Basically to fix this, they needed to win more.

The beast tribes and their primals also never feel like a credible threat, because as soon as they are summoned (and our "efforts" to prevent them from being summoned invariably fail) we deal with them handily. Ifrit, Garuda, Titan - they all just feel like minor distractions that have no real impact on the story and no opportunity to demonstrate the supposed existential danger they present to Eorzea. I'll admit I haven't done any of the HW primals yet, but I somehow doubt they're any different. Ramuh has been the sole exception thus far, and I actually really enjoyed the story introducing him. Getting to interact directly with Ramuh and hear his perspective on the world - as well as present our own treaty - was really interesting. It suggests that the primals are a lot more complicated than they're usually made out to be, and this is actually a side point in the Ascian plot (Y'shtola makes some throw-away comments every so often about how we don't yet understand how primals work). The unfortunate part is that I have not yet seen that fully explored. But anyway, the main point is that the primals are in practice push-overs and this is emphasized by the repeated quests of, "Oh look, they've been summoned again. I guess we better go kill them."

That's all for now! It's dinner time. :) I could go on forever on this. My husband is an author and we often have lengthy conversations about what was or wasn't well-written in the MMOs we play, so this is a topic I've put a lot of thought into!

I'm not sure if it's because I value different aspects of story than most of the people here or what, but I loved the 2.0 story, and think it's better than the Heavensward story. 2.0 set up an entire world and a conflict with many sides that all stand up on their own. Obviously we understand the motivation of the three central nations, but you also had the Empire who are trying to destroy false gods that they feel (rightly!) are tearing apart Eorzea; five different beast tribes with motivations varying from outright aggression (Amalj'aa) to a totally defensive posture (Sylphs) to trying to defend themselves (Kobolds); and you have the Ascians, who are trying to manipulate everyone and everything into summoning primals. (Well, I'll grant I don't really buy in to the Ascians' motivations, but this is a Final Fantasy game, you need some good vs. evil, right?) For that matter, I've questioned Hydaelyn's motivations many times. It feels like a real world with real conflicts.

The story is also very well told, and touches on a lot of subjects most JRPGs shy away from. Defending that peasant girl from Ungust after the Copperbell Mines was a scene that stands out for me (not least because it's the first time they use the FF2 battle music, lol). This is not a game that is afraid of going dark, and that is great. (Of course, my favorite FF ending is FFXIII-2, so there may be something wrong with me!)

Yes, the story structure is an obvious construct designed to get you to visit every area of every map, and sometimes they take that a bit too far (that friggin' feast!), but it plays out like the Scions are trying to do what they can when they can to keep the world in order. I prefer that to a linear plot where they introduce a bad guy and you just go after him.

That said, although Heavensward's story is much narrower in scope, it's even better told due to the journey with friends aspect of it. It's just not as much the kind of thing I'm interested in. (Similarly, I loved the story, or I should say stories, of FFXIII right up until Barthandelus shows up and things got silly quickly.)

The whole game has plenty of amazing moments, which to me are what make a story a Final Fantasy story. I'll never forget the introduction of the Ultima Weapon, the cutscenes after T11, the scene before the final fight with Nidhogg, or many others. I get chills just thinking about them. That's what I play for.

I also want to say that the silent/useless protagonist thing doesn't really bother me. It's not great, but it's a necessary evil. No, my character probably shouldn't have fallen for the trap at the end of 2.55, but what do you want them to do? Your character eats primals for breakfast, nothing should really threaten them. I'd rather play a story where I experience some fear from time to time than hold on to some kind of sanctity of character. But I understand why people would feel differently.

And being silent is probably better than the alternatives. Having a voice-acted main character would be the worst, because there's no way it would feel like your character at that point. I wouldn't mind more dialogue options, but since they cannot, practically speaking, ever impact the story in any way, I don't really miss them. And Final Fantasy has never been about giving you any control of the story anyway. Also, remember that while some of your NPC buddies get to shine in cutscenes while you grimace awkwardly from the back line, you're the one actually fighting primals and doomsday weapons. Don't hog all the glory, sheesh!

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Originally Posted by Alleo

I agree with you 100%. I always heard that FF loves to use religion/church = evil kind of thing in their story and I saw it already at XIII. So I was more than disappointed that it was exactly the same in this game too. The pope is evil, the church bad too and many more things. Isnt it getting enough if your fanbase already says that this guy must be evil because he is the pope? How about taking a new route..

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I get annoyed with how many times the church is the secret bad guy in Final Fantasy, but I actually think Heavensward is an exception. Yes, the pope and his closest advisors, and some of the high priests, were pretty much evil. Their motivations do make sense, especially since ending the Dragonsong War was effectively impossible. (Incidentally, I think we had way too easy a time with that. :P )

But they make it clear that the actual faith is still legitimate. The Dragonsong War was based on a lie, but that was one aspect of the religion. I appreciated that they didn't just make the whole organization corrupt top-to-bottom. (Though the cynic in me assumes they didn't do this because it would be too hard to reflect that much change in game based on where you are in the plot.)

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Originally Posted by Zojha

To be fair: Whenever there is a bad guy, the ascians are more than eager to support them, because it helps their goal of spreading chaos. So even if there are independent bad guys around, chances are the ascians would get involved sooner or later, unless it's a minor evil with no potential to be used for their own plot.

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Of course, a villain with the balls to tell the ascians to sod off because they're badass enough to get the job done without help would give that villain a lot of weight. Specially if they do get incredibly close to winning on their own.

Suikoden II's Luca Blight (AKA the posterboy of villains without superpowers) is testament to this being a valid approach.

I think overall the story is interesting, with cool characters that I have come to care about.

the one thing I dislike about the story, is that it almost literally ignores everyone else playing the game. this is my major beef with the game's writing.

I really dislike "You are the single, only, sole Chosen One champion of all that is good" stories in MMOs. Those should be saved for single-player games, tbh.

I prefer MMO stories where my character is portrayed as one of many heroes, part of an organization, etc. Because in reality, my character IS one of many. We are all Warriors of Light, and I dislike that the story makes it seem like you soloed everything because you are a super special snowflake, even though you actually did a lot of it with between 3, 7 or 23 other people. but the FFXIV story pretty much disregards the other players, and treats them as basically non-existent.

I generally like the story. One thing that bugs me though is the good characters are a bit too "good". No one any has flaws or negative traits. Everyone is valiant beyond belief. This makes me become more interested in the "bad guys" like Gaius, Nero, and Nidhogg.

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Originally Posted by Naunet

Point number 1! also snip

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Glad to see other people find the awkward pauses and close ups to faces changing expressions to be jarring. Especially when it does a close up for three or more characters. SE, either have the camera angled so every character is seen reacting at the same time, or don't do it at all. It's silly to imagine everyone is reacting one after another every two seconds.

I'd really like to see less of Alphinaud in future storyline's.

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Originally Posted by Naunet

Oh, of course the Fantasy Pope is secretly evil. Oh, of course the Fantasy Church is restricting people's access to information (see as an example the Galileo plot copy of the AST quests, which gets the whole Galileo thing wrong anyway because the Church actually funded his research quite happily). Oh, of course they have "Inquisitors" who are pretty much universally and exaggeratedly cruel and harsh about their judgments. Oh, of course Fantasy Religion are the bad guys and us Pure Spiritual Outsiders are going to make everyone see the light. I could go on, but to sum it up: it's a cheap ploy to set up another Big Bad. They could easily tell the story of the Ishgard-dragon war without turning Ishgard into an obnoxious and stereotypical caricature of Catholicism.

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You must be new to RPG's, the religions are always the bad guys. It's not hard to understand why though. A lot of fantasy games are set in a world where swords and sorcery are rife. Going back to our own history when witchcraft and warcraft was believed in more than science and technology, this was pretty much the case. I see it more as setting the period rather than stereotyping, since the stereotype itself comes from historical fact.

Maybe it is a bit overdone, but considering this is a Final Fantasy game which has always had a 'religion is bad' undertone (you regularly fight evil deities and religious institutes in just about every game), it's not really unexpected. It's just another part of the FF package, like chocobos.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

Of course, a villain with the balls to tell the ascians to sod off because they're badass enough to get the job done without help would give that villain a lot of weight. Specially if they do get incredibly close to winning on their own.

Suikoden II's Luca Blight (AKA the posterboy of villains without superpowers) is testament to this being a valid approach.

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While such a villian (hopefully) would be a good one, I believe Thordan's way wasn't all that bad either: Accept the Ascians help to further his goals only to gain the upper hand and take them out. Igeyorhm via us and Lahabrea via himself. And even with that he showed himself to be a "dark" shade of gray instead of black like the Ascians.

On Final Fantasy and religon/churches: While X has the higher ups ultimately be corrupt and all that, what remains of it in X-2 is shown to still be somewhat significant even after it was exposed AND that there were those taking charge both to restore its good name and insure it doesn't fall to that corruption again. While I don't think we will follow to much more of that after Scholasticate is done I don't think Ishgard will ever not have its religon dissapear.

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Originally Posted by Lemuria

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You're actually rather wrong in that regard. Final Fantasy has actually treated churches as a place you revive KO'd party members. A church was also a place where you first meet a certain flower girl. X, Lightning Returns and XIV are probably the only Final Fantasy games where "world religion" is treated as evil or corrupt. Leaving out cults, as even in real life they tend to be evil...

It might not be common for churches to be corrupt in Final Fantasy, but in JRPGs in general, it's VERY overused.

You know why story sucks? because there isn't any romance whatsoever. But what would i know, i'm a simple newbie.

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Originally Posted by Talraen

I get annoyed with how many times the church is the secret bad guy in Final Fantasy, but I actually think Heavensward is an exception. Yes, the pope and his closest advisors, and some of the high priests, were pretty much evil. Their motivations do make sense, especially since ending the Dragonsong War was effectively impossible. (Incidentally, I think we had way too easy a time with that. :P )

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Yes not everyone was portrayed at evil but maybe it would have been nice if even the pope turned out to be more grey or even go to our side..(They could have him being betrayed by the heavensward or something like that..maybe a little twist) but if I remember it right as soon as he was seen in a trailer people were already saying "he must be evil". I just sometimes hope that FF14 takes some more twists on things and dont go along the line of other FF titels or JRPG games.

They for example could have used that priest to show that the church and their members have still good people in them and that they help the poorer people by giving them shelter..yet in the end he only did this to have some nice victims and he even threw that girl off the tower..I just really cant remember any good member of the church.

And yes I agree the end of the dragonsong war was way to easy and fast. I just hope that this wont be the last we hear from Ishgard and that maybe we have some more conflicts along the way since I am quite sure that not every person is fine with the way it is and I hope that this will be part of some sidequests maybe even some more focus in the scholastice quest.

Dw people, next expansion we are going to fight the militant atheist empire who are hell-bent on destorying all deities again. Please, look forward to it.

I was wondering something: if you had the choice, would you side with the villains or simply go for the bad guys (think it of Republic vs Empire thing)?.
I personally would: there's only so much "goodness" I can endure before I get annoyed to be the "good guy/girl"

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Originally Posted by Lunavi

Dw people, next expansion we are going to fight the militant atheist empire who are hell-bent on destorying all deities again. Please, look forward to it.

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I hope not. Seems like a return to 2.0 ARR though, where we get to deal with another Garlean official with the same motivation. :(

Personally, I think the story is good...for a MMORPG.
You have to jump some hoops to include the massive number of adventurers without sounding too much silly, so, it's ok.

What I'd like is less linearity. The beginning of HW was a nice change of pace, since you could chose which zone to start with. It didn't have any impact in the end, but it would be interesting to use split objectives more often (And the cool reminder of FFVI and the 3 plots near the beginning)
With more phasing, I also think they could also go a little further to make the world revolve more around your character. WoW does it since it's 2nd extension, it shouldn't be that difficult...

On a sidenote, I play the game in french, and the voice acting, without being stellar, is quite enjoyable, and don't bother with too much convoluted phrasing. It's also fun to recognie some voices, like Ramuh who has the same french voice than Kain in Soul Reaver, or the WoD who has the voice of Kaneda from Akira and Riku from Kingdom Hearts.

Well... As the 2.xx storyline was nearing its end I became a cutscene-skipper. I had followed most of it. In Heavensward I wanted my money back because the story took a huge dump on the way how I liked to play up to that point (gatherers & crafters first so that I could make HQ gear for myself). It was forcing me to go battle classes first and making my DoH/DoL efforts worthless. It was probably partially because of that why I didn't enjoy the HW story at all and was mostly just angry at it. I didn't like any of the HW characters and I couldn't care less what happened to them.

ARR: Ok
HW: Annoying, blocking me from doing things I enjoy in the game

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Originally Posted by Lunavi

Dw people, next expansion we are going to fight the militant atheist empire who are hell-bent on destorying all deities again. Please, look forward to it.

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Don't forget that we are doing this by assisting the hidden rebel forces, with our rare gift probably ultimately being the key to victory in the most dire moment.

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Originally Posted by Nestama

You're actually rather wrong in that regard. Final Fantasy has actually treated churches as a place you revive KO'd party members. A church was also a place where you first meet a certain flower girl. X, Lightning Returns and XIV are probably the only Final Fantasy games where "world religion" is treated as evil or corrupt. Leaving out cults, as even in real life they tend to be evil...

It might not be common for churches to be corrupt in Final Fantasy, but in JRPGs in general, it's VERY overused.

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What about VI, where Kafka became a god and destroyed the world?

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Originally Posted by cammi

Actually I'mma go more in detail. I don't care that my character doesn't talk ingame. I care that my character doesn't ACT in game movies. I hate that npcs can do all this crazy Street Fighter Anime battle crap but my character stands there like a little princess waiting to be saved. I'm the goddammed WARRIOR OF LIGHT! I save YOU! you don't save me. That is my issue with the story. Let me feel like the BA I'm posed to be. IF that means more solo instances where I have to actually fight things then bring it on. I'm posed to be the BAMF of this plot.. LET ME BE THAT. Show me, stop TELLING me.

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I think the most we can expect are scenes like this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2V6w...3kNUeq&index=7
While everyone run away from the enemy, the protagonist go straight to him, ready to fight back. But the fight itself will be outside of the CS.

About the "Silence Protagonist" problem, what is missing is a permament story partner who speak for the protagonist, like the Path of Twelve Companion from 1.0
https://youtu.be/opa2XtyvUOA?t=317

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Originally Posted by Voltyblast

I was wondering something: if you had the choice, would you side with the villains or simply go for the bad guys (think it of Republic vs Empire thing)?.
I personally would: there's only so much "goodness" I can endure before I get annoyed to be the "good guy/girl"

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At times, I do. I kinda wish there was more choice to our actions, or ability to affect what happens to our character. The game's story is at its best when I can relate to its characters and their motivations(3.3), and at its worst when I disagree with doing or saying something, but I'm dragged along the road regardless of my objection, or get no chance to object or say anything at all.(2.55) This has caused me to not like the Scions at times as they seem to be a regular source of this. Being the unstoppable respesenative of Eorzea/Hydelyn/whathaveyou has me pining for things that shake it up or change that, which makes me sad for the WoD's departure.

I also hope Garlemeld gets to be more than a literary paper tiger this time around.

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Originally Posted by Lemuria

You must be new to RPG's, the religions are always the bad guys. It's not hard to understand why though. A lot of fantasy games are set in a world where swords and sorcery are rife. Going back to our own history when witchcraft and warcraft was believed in more than science and technology, this was pretty much the case. I see it more as setting the period rather than stereotyping, since the stereotype itself comes from historical fact.

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"religions are always the bad guys" - that right there is WHY this is poor writing. It's ridiculously cliche. And it'd be one thing if it was just kind of one thing out of many, but with the Ishgard story, you are hammered over the head at every possible opportunity with every conceivable exaggeration of Catholicism and the Catholic Church to drive home this idea that the Ishgard Fantasy Pope and his henchmen are evil. It's taken to such a level that it reaches absurdity.

And it's NOT based on historical fact. Historical fact is that the Catholic Church subsidized and enthusiastically supported Galileo and his research into celestial mechanics. They welcomed his study on the universe with open arms, as they viewed understanding it as a way to better perceive the glory of God. Historically, the Church has been a huge supporter of science endeavors. They turned on him because afterward, Galileo decided to write some treatises specifically denigrating the Church, which was of course against doctrine - but it had little to nothing to do with his actual science. And yet, the Astrologian quest is quite obviously supposed to be referencing Galileo and his story - only taken to this weird extreme.

Honestly, I find "the religious guys are evil" to be a cheap ploy. It's fine if handled correctly, but it takes an awful lot of work to be handled correctly and FFXIV does not get there.

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Originally Posted by Felis

What about VI, where Kafka became a god and destroyed the world?

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Only the Cult of Kefka worshipped him.

I enjoyed Heavensward a lot more than I enjoyed ARR. One thing I can't stand about how this game handles plots though is that everything is often very disjointed with several plots going on simultaneously. Cid needs to prep the airship or whatever, and so we go off to embark on some other plot chain that has nothing to do with the one we were just on. Or there is still stuff like fetching Kan-E-Senna from Moghome... we've just been told that we are the first people in a thousand years to be in the Churning Mists, and immediately we leave, and bring in someone else. It's a... confusing roller coaster, to say the least.

The villains I feel zero threat from are the Ascians, which are also supposedly the biggest of the bad. But the worst thing I ever see them do is stand around, lurking, talking about how everything somehow is going according to their plan (and yet, every opportunity we're given, we stomp them). It's bizarre and confusing why we are supposed to actually feel intimidated by these enemies. Doesn't exactly seem like their plans ever work.

That and... characters are very stale. They don't really have complex backgrounds that are delved into, which is unfortunate. And sometimes characters get introduced (Hilda) that really have no real reason to be there. It's confusing to figure out what we should care about, and why.

Additionally--I want the stupid parts of the storyline to go away. Meaning the worthless detractions. Actually, I'd love to see the vast majority of sidequests go away (those that do not unlock content, or actually contribute meaningful lore). I find that there's an outrageous amount of dialogue in this game spent talking about nothing.

Replace the majority of sidequests with things like Clan Hunts. Or hunting logs. Stop wasting my time with meaningless dialogue chains--if you are just trying to find some mundane reason to send me off to kill x number of y monster. It's not interesting, and no one is being fooled by it being called a "sidequest"... it's busy work. I miss the days when sidequests would actually give you meaningful lore on something and justified their existence by having that lore be interesting.

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Originally Posted by Naunet

And it's NOT based on historical fact. Historical fact is that the Catholic Church subsidized and enthusiastically supported Galileo and his research into celestial mechanics. They welcomed his study on the universe with open arms, as they viewed understanding it as a way to better perceive the glory of God. Historically, the Church has been a huge supporter of science endeavors. They turned on him because afterward, Galileo decided to write some treatises specifically denigrating the Church, which was of course against doctrine - but it had little to nothing to do with his actual science. And yet, the Astrologian quest is quite obviously supposed to be referencing Galileo and his story - only taken to this weird extreme.

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Being aniti-science isn't the only thing Christianity was accused of that may or may not be false. Just saying.

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Originally Posted by Felis

What about VI, where Kafka became a god and destroyed the world?

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It's not really spelled out to you like it is in other games. A million years ago when I first did the climb and the Kefka fight, my first thought was "well, that's surreal and different", not "OMG this is an allegory for religion and I feel so badass for killing god". The closest things out of the entire fight that even alluded to religious undertones were the third movement of Dancing Mad (itself based on a Bach piece) and the fact Kefka was cosplaying an angel.

Start of 2.0 was pretty good in my opinion.
Slows down pretty hard in the middle with Titan and Garuda, but games still new so whatever.
Picks up again towards the end of 2.0.
2.X patch story is all over the place, mostly it's just there tbh.
3.0 was pretty great, sucked a bit in places but overall it's a definite improvement.
3.X patch story is again a bit of a mixed bag. Wrapped up the expansion nicely though.

More thoughts...

I want to be surprised more by the plots. It seems everyone is in a mad chase to get their hands on some Allagan artifact that will become a world ruiner. I want that to end and for there to be new threats. Something we haven't heard of before.
I really loved how XI handled plots--and not to say XIV needs to follow their model, but I believe there were some good aspects to it. In XI, you had the Zilart (this game's version of the Allagan), and while Rise of the Zilart had the "stop an ancient race from destroying the world," once that story was played out, it was done. Future expansions would involve fighting a God, preventing a clash of two titans (Odin/Alexander), and battling through time to preserve your history (Wings of the Goddess). While there were some elements that were kept consistent, each expansion was its own coherent storyline.

I see and appreciate that that XIV is trying to create a consistent narrative and some overarching themes that last awhile. But I disagree with a lot of its approach. For example, Omega weapon now is apparently a danger, but we knew that in 2.3? It seems so bizarre to tease something like that so long ago, pre Heavensward, to now make it relevant, somehow. Or maybe it won't be? It is very tough to say. Why bring up Omega Weapon so long ago, to only have to reintroduce the thing to us again? Again, the game struggles to convey to me what I should care about and why.

There are also so many times where the characters take pretty crazy risks. WoL is sent through to fight Shiva and risks getting lost to the aether permanently. PERMANENTLY. This person is like, YOUR ONLY HOPE AGAINST ALL THE PRIMALS. And you are going to chance this person's death? What about ramming an airship into Azys La's forcefield? Doesn't that carry some significant risk?

The characters don't debate options, different courses of actions. It's like Alphinaud throws a metaphorical dart and wherever it lands, that's the option we're taking. And it's always something that really, someone in their right mind should protest and question the logistics of. But they don't. They just take the first answer that comes to them and go through with it.

I don't see the Scions as a great group of heroes. They are more like... a group of idiots who get lucky "just because." It is like SE has forgotten that struggle is important to telling a great story, and not just guaranteed wins.

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Originally Posted by Belisaire

The characters don't debate options, different courses of actions. It's like Alphinaud throws a metaphorical dart and wherever it lands, that's the option we're taking. And it's always something that really, someone in their right mind should protest and question the logistics of. But they don't. They just take the first answer that comes to them and go through with it.

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Just want to point out that at one point in 3.0 Estinien did call Alphinaud out on this kind of behavior, around the Aery I think.

It started to get interesting by the time I reached the Dreams of Ice chapter. That was when I really started getting interested in the story. It all went uphill from there, except for a few chapters that I thought feel short of expectation, but, hey, it happens.

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Originally Posted by KitingGenbu

Personally, 2.0's story was pretty hit or miss.

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Problem with 2.0 story was that Coil questline felt more MSQ than MSQ itself.

To add to this.. Hildibrand quests are better written and much better animated than most of 2.0.

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Originally Posted by Belisaire

I don't see the Scions as a great group of heroes. They are more like... a group of idiots who get lucky "just because." It is like SE has forgotten that struggle is important to telling a great story, and not just guaranteed wins.

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The Scions lose a bunch though. The HQ gets invaded by Garleans, Thancred gets possessed, the Syndicate pressures them out of Ul'dah, Moenbryda is killed, Alphinauds GC turns on him and at the end of 2.X they essentially stop existing as an organization for the expansion.

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Originally Posted by Belisaire

More thoughts...

I want to be surprised more by the plots. It seems everyone is in a mad chase to get their hands on some Allagan artifact that will become a world ruiner. I want that to end and for there to be new threats. Something we haven't heard of before.

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I'll never disagree with more variety. But in Heavensward alone they have been way more of a backdrop. The MSQ is about a war with dragons, and behind the scenes are Ascians pulling the strings--the real threat of the overarching story, not the allagans who were also Ascian playthings-- the only relation to Allagans being that they are a major force in draconic history--something established in Coil of Bahamut.

Our current 24 man raid has us going up against the relics of the Mage War between Mhachi and Amdapori people. Its a similar plot structure to 'ancient people kind of are ruining modern Eorzea', but it is a different culture and its not a race to the artifact it's a race to the turn off the void they opened. Also no Allagans here.

Our current 8 man raid has us going up against a relic of the Sharlayan people brought to life by Goblins. Even it being a relic of anyone is up for debate given its recent revelations however. No Allagans here.

The Allagans are indeed involved in the Warring Triad series, however it's just as much about Meracydian culture and a bit of a retread over Coil of Bahamut and the origins of how Dalamud was made.

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I see and appreciate that that XIV is trying to create a consistent narrative and some overarching themes that last awhile. But I disagree with a lot of its approach. For example, Omega weapon now is apparently a danger, but we knew that in 2.3? It seems so bizarre to tease something like that so long ago, pre Heavensward, to now make it relevant, somehow. Or maybe it won't be? It is very tough to say. Why bring up Omega Weapon so long ago, to only have to reintroduce the thing to us again? Again, the game struggles to convey to me what I should care about and why.

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Heavensward had a LOT of story it had to go through, it would have been rushed and weak to have Omega Weapon be a side attraction to the Dragonsong War. I imagine they are bringing him up again because maybe he's going to be a major player in the 4.0 expansion, similar to Ultima Weapon and 2.0. Either way it would be even more wasteful to bring up Omega Weapon and get players hyped...only to never use him at all.

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Originally Posted by Jandor

The Scions lose a bunch though. The HQ gets invaded by Garleans, Thancred gets possessed, the Syndicate pressures them out of Ul'dah, Moenbryda is killed, Alphinauds GC turns on him and at the end of 2.X they essentially stop existing as an organization for the expansion.

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Its funny, people like to forget that just because everything's fine and dandy for us now, we haven't struggled. The WoL has also been defeated a few times in the game; the Amal'jaa outwitted us and thats why we wound up fighting Ifrit. We were again outwitted by the syndicate, we too suffer from every Scion's loss, and if Thancred didn't intervene when we were under the initial assault of the WoD, we'd have been owned hard. Not to mention our rather questionable decision to drink wine from a stranger.

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Originally Posted by Morningstar1337

Being aniti-science isn't the only thing Christianity was accused of that may or may not be false. Just saying.

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I dont want to start a religious debate, since this is not the place nor really that much relevant for the topic but there are some points that are kinda wrong about the catholic church especially in the middle age.
For example the church was not against scientific advance or education, Charles the Great even said that every cathedral should have its own school because education was important as the key to power. They may have made the advancement a little slower but they were never against it.

There was also never truly any evidence that people and especially the catholic church ever believed the world to be flat. It seems that this was only said after that period to make the middle age look bad and uneducated.

These are just two examples about some false information, at least if you trust All about History and other publications. ;) Any information could be wrong but I do believe that they take care to gather the right information or they would lose their reputation quite fast.

I wrote these just to show that maybe not everything bad truly happened and that its sad that SE really loves to often show so much of the believed bad side of the church or even something that is already shown to be wrong and yet barely show us some good side. You could have simply used the cleric to show that they take care of the poorer population. Maybe show some of them that stand by Aymeric's side..Yet all we get to see as main secondary NPCs are kinda bad guys..

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Originally Posted by Belisaire

The characters don't debate options, different courses of actions. It's like Alphinaud throws a metaphorical dart and wherever it lands, that's the option we're taking. And it's always something that really, someone in their right mind should protest and question the logistics of. But they don't. They just take the first answer that comes to them and go through with it.

I don't see the Scions as a great group of heroes. They are more like... a group of idiots who get lucky "just because." It is like SE has forgotten that struggle is important to telling a great story, and not just guaranteed wins.

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I do agree that they all too easily risk our life in this game. At least Alphinaud would go with us if he had the echo but at least all the other scions feel less like they would do that. Maybe I am judging them harshly but I sometimes get the feeling that they are quite alright with us doing the fighting and them getting information. There must be more people with echo out there that at the same time are able to fight..but (imo) we are only one WoL and fight alone all the time against the primals. But its not only about the primals..its about having to fight alone against Nidhogg, go alone (at least at the end) against Galearns like Gaius..while all the Scions stand outside waiting for us..I mean at least have them fight along side us when there is no primal there..especially with so many Scions that can fight quite well. Why exactly do we as the WoL and only real threat against the ascians, have to end a war? Why do we probably have to free Ala Mhigo? Why do we probably have to fight the Galearn?

I mean there are things that we do on our own like Void arc and all the other raids and I can understand that we are the one that will fight against Primals..but also throwing us at things that could be done by normal fighters too..what will they do if we die because of that? (I know its done so that we have some adventures/fights in this game but at least let them fight along side us for majore enemies or against the army..)

But I do believe that we do think about different kind of paths more and more. Especially Alphinaud did not want to believe that killing his friend was the only option to stop the dragon..and its seem with 3.4 even Urianger tried to go a different path and does not believe that fate cant be changed. So I think that this is the right way to go. I hope that they will choose this way for the future too because I do hate how in some kind of quests (crystal tower..) we never truly think about another option and that we just accept another sacrifice..

And I hope that one day the scions will be more active and dont just mostly react if the summoning is around the corner or already done..because right now I cant think about any action that they did to solve the problem permanently. I mean 2.x was more about throwing the WoL against the next primal of the week instead of trying to find a way to not have one the next week. They might not have the power to do this alone but I never really got the hint that they try to change the view of the city states (only example was Y'stholas argument with the admiral..but arguing like that wont change anyones mind..) Right now I dont really feel like the WoL truly needs the scions anymore. I got the feeling that with Ishgard we achieved way more when most of them were still missing than over all the time they were still complete..I mean hearing about another summoning of a primal, going there and slay it..thats not something you need an organization for..

I dont hate them but I also right now find them kinda useless. Single members might have helped us on our journey but as a whole organization they feel kinda useless..but the end of 3.4 gave me hope that maybe in 4.0 we wont be part of the scions that much anymore.

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

Its funny, people like to forget that just because everything's fine and dandy for us now, we haven't struggled. The WoL has also been defeated a few times in the game; the Amal'jaa outwitted us and thats why we wound up fighting Ifrit. We were again outwitted by the syndicate, we too suffer from every Scion's loss, and if Thancred didn't intervene when we were under the initial assault of the WoD, we'd have been owned hard. Not to mention our rather questionable decision to drink wine from a stranger.

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Well it was not truly the Amal'jaa that outwitted us, I mean we cant do much against traitors that tell on us and I dont think its healthy to see a traitor in any person and distrust them all. I agree we were outwitted by the syndicate and I sometimes want to hit my character on the head for not thinking..(that poor sickness "plot") I mean I am part of the alchemy guild and still was not able to realize that this might be poison..and just going to that place, taking it with us and never suspect that this might be a trap..after finding Wilfred and knowing that there is a traitor in the group...yeah that was IMO not really the best storytelling..at least I got the feeling like my character had no brain..(which is even more insulting as someone that has archanist/summoner as a main)

At the first meeting of the WoD we kinda were in a worse situation than them. We did not know them, did not really had the wish to fight them (they attacked us first) and somehow our echo vision did hit us harder and longer than the WoD...the second time we fight them we mob the floor with them. ;) Only thanks to the echo were they able to stand up again and yet we beat them three times..So I am quite sure that we would have been able to stand our ground in the first fight but plot demanded to have a nice scene for Thancred which made us look just weak again..

And about the wine. Well we as the players might have been quite alarmed after hearing that a barmaid had her own voice..but the WoL just went into a bar to get themself a drink which they got from someone that looks like a barmaid. I do believe that we are now going to just drink from our own flask. *gg* But at that time how should we have known that this woman was a fake barmaid?

I have nothing against being weak or failing something but I do dislike if the story forces this just for the plot, making the WoL look stupid with this and it just feels bad. It would be nice to finally be able to protect someone else in a cutscene instead of being the one that is protected..I mean how often does one of the scions and other NPCs jump in for our safety? Some even died for it..How about we jump in someones way, survive something that should be fatal thanks to our skills but at the same time get hurt and maybe let other characters finally realize that we are mortal too..They could have a nice cutscene afterwards showing the scions and others worrying about us and maybe in certain story fights after that we have a slight debuff thanks to the injury. (But nothing lasting like scars or something..or at least only as an option.)

So yeah that forced weakness/stupidity to get the plot done is something that I dont really like in FF14.

I don't know if it will help, if we discuss the story writing here, as I don't know if Yoshi-P said anything about changing the approch they take for this. In addition to that: It's fairly hard to write a compelling story, you either can or you can't. It could also be, that the story writers have pretty decent ideas, but their editors just won't agree with them. Sadly, there are many things to consider in a multi million dollar project.

Some spoilers ahead.

In addition to the many good points (character mimic, boring characters, mild plot), I would like to point out, that it is almost always a bad idea for an author to break his own rules. For example: I remember, as I first played the Heavensward main story, there was a quest where Raubahn slowly lost his health. I was stunned at how much HP he lost with each tick and quickly calculated his max HP pool. HP wise this guy would have been able to take the ultima weapon alone. And this guy had his arm cut off by some mere palace guards? This seems not very likely to me. There are several other occasions where I thought: "Not very likely..." but the post is already long.

One point I want to underline too is, that I really don't feel like the warrior of light is something special. Telling me I'm something special while I just have to go into a dungeon and see at least 3 other people who are also "special", I feel kind of trolled. Just scratch that and make it something else.