Changelist for ast ^_^

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Originally Posted by Taika

WHM is a really powerful healer and extremely wanted for Savage groups, and these changes won't change that. I do hope they might balance the numbers of WHM and AST as main healers though (currently 152 AST kills for A8S vs 893 WHM kills on logs).


Except noct AST still won't be competitive against SCH who are wanted in raid groups mainly for their DPS capabilities.

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I havnt parsed a sch, but wouldn't balance either raid wide or extended single target trump sch damage?

Assuming a 2000 dps character we are talking about 400 dps increase for single and aprox 1200 dps for raid wide + Ast dps. I know that there is some rng but with redraw over 2 draw sets you have a 50% chance ( each set either spread or royal road)

I do not see how access to a ~minute-long Shadow Wall, or a longer Raging Strikes on demand, is at all balanced. AST is already competitive apart from certain synergy oversights. And the shit cards remain as shitty as ever. Why?
Even just changing out the mobile Benefic II for the auto-crit is a bigger buff than the job needs, though appreciated given that the real problems are likely never to be fixed. Thanks for the Draw and Redraw QoLs though, I guess.

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Originally Posted by magnanimousCynic

Except you forgot the part where you still have to fight the RNG for Bole and Balance along with the Royal Road bonus every minute or more. You make it sound like AST can just draw those specific cards 100% of the time and ALSO draw the correct card type for Royal Road to be most beneficial. That doesn't happen in a real-world scenario. There can be times where you just don't draw Balance for 3 minutes. There can also be times where you get 3 balances back-to-back. Just because the second scenario CAN happen doesn't mean it WILL happen.

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Given the new line-up between Draw and Redraw, you have a 50% chance to get a card moving you towards mass-Balance, and an additional 25% chance towards improved Bole every Draw. When the cards are increasing raid DPS by 10%, or serving as an extra tank stance buff, being up a third of the time is more than enough. Note that these buffs affect Diurnal as well, which is not especially lacking in DPS.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

I do not see how access to a ~minute-long Shadow Wall, or a longer Raging Strikes on demand, is at all balanced. AST is already competitive apart from certain synergy oversights. And the shit cards remain as shitty as ever. Why?
Even just changing out the mobile Benefic II for the auto-crit is a bigger buff than the job needs, though appreciated given that the real problems are likely never to be fixed. Thanks for the Draw and Redraw QoLs though, I guess.

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Except you forgot the part where you still have to fight the RNG for Bole and Balance along with the Royal Road bonus every minute or more. You make it sound like AST can just draw those specific cards 100% of the time and ALSO draw the correct card type for Royal Road to be most beneficial. That doesn't happen in a real-world scenario. There can be times where you just don't draw Balance for 3 minutes. There can also be times where you get 3 balances back-to-back. Just because the second scenario CAN happen doesn't mean it WILL happen.

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Originally Posted by Fyce

Balance at 20%. I really didn't expect them to go that high. So, not only the changes to Redraw will make it more easy to get a Balance, but it'll also make the AST's indirect DPS spike like crazy for 30-40 sec (depending on CO's availability). This is nuts, but that was needed to make N.AST close the gap in DPS between him and SCH. The gap is still not closed, but it's now way closer.

We might even see AST/AST combos in order to make fflogs explode, in scenarios where the Limit Break reduction doesn't matter.

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The thing is, this is a universal change, not one limited to Nocturnal Sect. Which means, if AST can replace SCH by use of these buffs, then it can also take up the non-SCH non-AST spot as well. 10% bonus raid damage at all times, atop DoTs that cannot miss, the most mana-efficient spammable AoE among healers, and now more reliable shielding. If they wanted to level out NOCTURNAL Sect DPS specifically, they need go no further than making Nocturnal Sect affect ALL potencies, while Diurnal then additionally reduces mana costs to balance out its increased speed and lesser effect, and fixing its toolkit synergy issues.

I've seen double AST for about as long as fflog padding has been a thing. This just makes it no joke.

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Originally Posted by magnanimousCynic

Your math is off since it's literally impossible for the numbers to be lower than it is now, especially since Nocturnal Sect now buffs healing by 10% instead of 5%.

TL;DR: Use Potency for comparison, not in-game numbers.

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Ah ok, had a feeling I was making a mistake on something. Thanks for the heads up.

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

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My scenario was: Each healer use one of their abilities and one spell. With no other factor both shield for similar numbers.
And yeah SCH will still be used for early progression for world and server racers more because no one will want to learn a new job now and SCH is still more powerfull. As for raid busters... Except for Primal Ultimates that take 3 years for them to charge at you, in A8S for example you don't have time to set up all of that on most Kicks... And most raid busters from primals are survivable just with Succor and everyone full health. But in the end seems like we both agree SCH is stronger for one single AoE and AST for repetitive ones.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

The thing is, this is a universal change, not one limited to Nocturnal Sect. Which means, if AST can replace SCH by use of these buffs, then it can also take up the non-SCH non-AST spot as well. 10% bonus raid damage at all times, atop DoTs that cannot miss, the most mana-efficient spammable AoE among healers, and now more reliable shielding. If they wanted to level out NOCTURNAL Sect DPS specifically, they need go no further than making Nocturnal Sect affect ALL potencies, while Diurnal then additionally reduces mana costs to balance out its increased speed and lesser effect, and fixing its toolkit synergy issues.

I've seen double AST for about as long as fflog padding has been a thing. This just makes it no joke.

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I never said otherwise. But the DPS gap between N.AST and SCH was what prevented N.AST from taking this off-heal spot to begin with. It will need really good parsing and maths to actually figure this out entirely, but I think this issue is more or less solved with the buffs.
Of course, D.AST will also see its DPS spike with 3.4, I'm not denying that.

My point was just to say that there will now be no reason to deny an AST from taking the place of a SCH. In short terms: statics who were looking for a SCH should also include an AST in their search from now as this job can now take any healer spot.

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Originally Posted by Sanghelios

Bole is still useless. No Tank will map his cooldowns with taking in mind he can or can not get a non reliable mitigation cooldown.

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It's useless to plan around sure, but if you draw a bole it's now basically free DPS for 30 seconds.

EDIT: Or you can Spread it and save it for when the tank needs to use a cooldown.

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Originally Posted by Fyce

My point was just to say that there will now be no reason to deny an AST from taking the place of a SCH. In short terms: statics who were looking for a SCH should also include an AST in their search from now as this job can now take any healer spot.

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To a degree. If your party damage is too low to outpace the difference in SCH vs AST personal damage then SCH would be best.

High party DPS + GOOD RNG then NoctAST will be ideal.

But if the new Raid benefits from the consistently higher shielding then AST will be in a good position regardless.

*heavy breathing*

Just to get this out of the way I play as a Scholar, so what I am about to say might sound a bit biased, but here goes.

Most of the buffs to AST are good I guess, the card buffs help mitigate RNG a bit better and they got a major boost to their potency. But I have a slight issue with the Shields. A normal AST can now create a shield that is 170% of what the initial heal is, not to mention the initial heal will be 10% stronger as well, plus the spell is instant, and has a lower cost. I feel like Scholar is losing the thing that makes it special, it's Shield. AST is dangerously close to having a doubled shield like SCH, but SCH only get it if Adlo crits, which is a bitch. I am not saying SCHs aren't still in a good place, but the whole appeal of SCH is shields. I feel like SCH needs some minor adjustment down the road, nothing big, but something, mostly with Dissipation. Think about it we have to kill out poor fairy to touch AST shields now. (Also admittedly I may just be projecting because I was really hoping for the Egi-Glamour T.T)

But the big thing I think they missed, is the ability for AST/SCH to play together both using shields, they should of made it that the stronger shield can override the other, that would be the biggest and best change in my opinion.

Yoshida to all AST player in upcoming patch 3.4

http://s12.postimg.org/nfnil4q19/53656683.jpg

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Originally Posted by Zaj_Quilos

Yeah i think it's a far more useful proc!

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I will really miss the Instant Benefic II though. Having that proc was like a free pass to throw out two more gravities without caring how low the tank got.

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Originally Posted by Bdyer

I havnt parsed a sch, but wouldn't balance either raid wide or extended single target trump sch damage?

Assuming a 2000 dps character we are talking about 400 dps increase for single and aprox 1200 dps for raid wide + Ast dps. I know that there is some rng but with redraw over 2 draw sets you have a 50% chance ( each set either spread or royal road)

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You might be actually right, but my math isn't good enough to claim either way with 100% confidence. :D I checked FFXIVlogs for SCH vs AST DPS on A8S and the best SCH had around 300 higher DPS than the best AST. If the group DPS is 10k for a fight and an AST would have AoE balance up for 1/3 of the fight, then AST would bring a higher DPS buff than the SCH, right?

In any case, AST+SCH brings out the biggest DPS benefit, but they did so before the patch as well. And WHM has still the biggest healing power especially for AoE and is the safest option, especially for progression. Will be interesting to see if there will be more groups with WHM+AST now.

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Originally Posted by Sanghelios

Bole is still useless. No Tank will map his cooldowns with taking in mind he can or can not get a non reliable mitigation cooldown.

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Originally Posted by Nekotee

Useless ? You can make the mitigation skyrocket on a tank or on the group
It's so much heal you don't have to do and so much DPS you can squeeze before heal

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Yep, nowadays the major cards for me are Arrow and Balance.
At 3.4, it will be Bole and Balance.
If you have a Bole, just give it to your main tank (because auto attack from boss still do a lot of damages) and go go DPS !

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Originally Posted by Rongway

I will really miss the Instant Benefic II though. Having that proc was like a free pass to throw out two more gravities without caring how low the tank got.

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Yeah but it was a nuisance for some career AST on progression and would make them waste a GCD on pure overhealing sometimes not only that it was also a waster proc on Lightspeed.
The critical proc is not only far more usefull but synergizes with Synastry really well, good ASTs will know how to take advantage of it.

I'm always happy to see AST buffs...but always overwhelmingly disappointed when none of them are major overhauls to what is an extremely clunky hybridization system. Potency bandaids wouldn't be too bad if they just affected Noct, but those card changes seem to hurt WHM more than they help Noct AST, IMO.

If I'll be frank, I think the biggest reason AST is still under-represented in content is just because either a lot of people don't know how to play it, or a lot of raid teams THINK that no one knows how to play it. I feel like a lot of these buffs are kind of knee-jerk handling to a problem that would have eventually been self-correcting (at least on the AST vs WHM side...AST vs SCH is a whole other beast). Cards weren't really underwhelming because their output was too low...they were underwhelming because at the end of the day, a healer's job revolves around pre-planning, and the very nature of the Draw system goes against that. I'd rather see more adjustments to card RNG mitigation rather than SUPER POWERFUL MONDO CARDS...the two times in a fight you're lucky enough to get one.

So on that note, loving the Redraw change. Don't see why Balance needed such a ridiculous buff when it's the most-desired AST card already, but hey, I'll take it lol. Hoping 4.0 might give some new card interactivity tools though, to help what is the only real unique aspect of the job outside of Synastry really shine.

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Originally Posted by loreleidiangelo

If I'll be frank, I think the biggest reason AST is still under-represented in content is just because either a lot of people don't know how to play it, or a lot of raid teams THINK that no one knows how to play it.

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It's more than that
It's people not getting it on how to play it...
people watching people struggling to play and then thinking oh... the job is bad (when it's the player fault)
people closed-minded that stay in the 2.0 meta of WHM+SCH
and also people that forgot that 2.07 got many potency change

I got someone who told me recently "ast is bad because they have lower potency" like... What ?

it's really an accumulation, just like DRK was feeling squishy when in fact it was only because those were DPS > DRK transition... and old DPS do not have a clue about defensive Cooldown rotation

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Originally Posted by Nekotee

It's more than that It's people not getting it on how to play it...
people watching people struggling to play and then thinking oh... the job is bad (when it's the player fault)
people closed-minded that stay in the 2.0 meta of WHM+SCH
and also people that forgot that 2.07 got many potency change

I got someone who told me recently "ast is bad because they have lower potency" like... What ?

it's really an accumulation, just like DRK was feeling squishy when in fact it was only because those were DPS > DRK transition... and old DPS do not have a clue about defensive Cooldown rotation

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What makes AST special? DRK and MCH were welcomed and in fact preferred to PLD/BRD on 3.0.

The DRK's being squishy was an amalgam of things. The starting level 30 gear they give you is awful and gave you no accessories, so almost every DRK was undergeared. At level cap we had lots of people confused about how to balance MP/Grit/Darkside which compounded with what you said as well as people going for full slaying accessories.

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Originally Posted by basketofseals

What makes AST special? DRK and MCH were welcomed and in fact preferred to PLD/BRD on 3.0.

The DRK's being squishy was an amalgam of things. The starting level 30 gear they give you is awful and gave you no accessories, so almost every DRK was undergeared. At level cap we had lots of people confused about how to balance MP/Grit/Darkside which compounded with what you said as well as people going for full slaying accessories.

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On release, Diurnal AST was worse than WHM, and Nocturnal AST was worse than SCH. This showed both on paper and in practice.

It was due to a bad balancing of its cooldown timers and potencies, as well as overall healing power. In short: AST was designed to be able to either replace a WHM or a SCH, but never achieved to be roughly as useful as the two jobs it wanted to replace.
So, it never really took off.

On the other hand, MCH had a better DPS and utility than BRD from the get go, and the DRK's toolkit was better suited for Gordias, making it better in every way compared to PLD.
AST wasn't better than anyone. It wasn't even on the same level as any other healer.

The 3.4 buffs are here to finally allow AST to perform at the same level as WHM/SCH, making it able to fit in any team composition. It was supposed to be able to do that from the beginning... but it took more than a year to reach that point (such a long time that people are actually still wondering "is it good enough now?").

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Originally Posted by Fyce

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WHY ARE YOUR POSTS ALWAYS SO ELEGANT AND SENSIBLE?

ilu

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Originally Posted by loreleidiangelo

Cards weren't really underwhelming because their output was too low...they were underwhelming because at the end of the day, a healer's job revolves around pre-planning, and the very nature of the Draw system goes against that. I'd rather see more adjustments to card RNG mitigation rather than SUPER POWERFUL MONDO CARDS...the two times in a fight you're lucky enough to get one.

So on that note, loving the Redraw change. Don't see why Balance needed such a ridiculous buff when it's the most-desired AST card already, but hey, I'll take it lol. Hoping 4.0 might give some new card interactivity tools though, to help what is the only real unique aspect of the job outside of Synastry really shine.

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Sums it up perfectly. It's ok buffing something, as people focus on 'bigger effect!!!!!'. But it's the unplanned nature of the card rng that needs attention next time around.

I'm sorry I can't accept that

The current up of card duration (in hand) make it really easy to use and plan

You can always plan your card in every situation
With the new 30 sec you always use the spell when it's up and you play accordingly
And if you can't plan 6 "if" based on the 6 card... Then damn...

Yo Yoship, you forgot to readjust AST's spells MP consumption.
I will personally use a tuna-hammer and bonk anybody who thinks the lower MP cost of an AST across the board is still justified.

Hush up, Scholars were untouched the entire Heavenward expansion. It's Astros time to shine whether it gets you salty or not.

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Originally Posted by DreamWeaver

Yo Yoship, you forgot to readjust AST's spells MP consumption.
I will personally use a tuna-hammer and bonk anybody who thinks the lower MP cost of an AST across the board is still justified.

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It give a huge advantage to the AST over whm in the same rôle as HoT healer
Combine to the massive cheated mana regen + CO

It render the whm useless

It IS justified ! :D

lol I would never pair up with a AST on my WHM.
I rather pick up a godly SCH lmao.

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Originally Posted by Fyce

On release, Diurnal AST was worse than WHM, and Nocturnal AST was worse than SCH. This showed both on paper and in practice.

It was due to a bad balancing of its cooldown timers and potencies, as well as overall healing power. In short: AST was designed to be able to either replace a WHM or a SCH, but never achieved to be roughly as useful as the two jobs it wanted to replace.
So, it never really took off.

On the other hand, MCH had a better DPS and utility than BRD from the get go, and the DRK's toolkit was better suited for Gordias, making it better in every way compared to PLD.
AST wasn't better than anyone. It wasn't even on the same level as any other healer.


The 3.4 buffs are here to finally allow AST to perform at the same level as WHM/SCH, making it able to fit in any team composition. It was supposed to be able to do that from the beginning... but it took more than a year to reach that point (such a long time that people are actually still wondering "is it good enough now?").

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Do you think it'd take massive overbuffing for people to be willing to pick up AST? I remember the hate for DRK being QUITE loud even a month in. AST at least had people waffling back and forth on it.

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Originally Posted by Yona87

lol I would never pair up with a AST on my WHM.
I rather pick up a godly SCH lmao.

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The sch is god only when there is crit and on little extend with the fairy (depending which one you use)

Otherwise all non crit shield are a joke compared to the AST
And ast got card that the sch doesn't have
Bole > EfaE
Disable > Virus

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Originally Posted by Nekotee

The sch is god only when there is crit and on little extend with the fairy (depending which one you use)

Otherwise all non crit shield are a joke compared to the AST
And ast got card that the sch doesn't have
Bole > EfaE
Disable > Virus

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You are entitled to your opinion.

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Originally Posted by basketofseals

Do you think it'd take massive overbuffing for people to be willing to pick up AST? I remember the hate for DRK being QUITE loud even a month in. AST at least had people waffling back and forth on it.

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Hard to answer. If you take a look at Yona87's post just above yours, you'll see someone who's still stuck in 2015, thinking that N.AST is crap and who was probably driven by what the community was saying rather than personal experience. So, AST being played or not will mostly depends on people's willingness to not follow this old trend.

The best thing would be for the World First clear on Alexander Savage: Creator to be done with a N.AST, so people will think that AST is playable, or even overpowered, and will start to play it.
People, and players in particular, are idiots. They'll play what they are told is good, even if they don't even play at a high enough level for it to make a difference. Since AST was labeled as complete trash, and that the lastest buffs weren't enough to make that image go away in people's mind (even if D.AST was actually quite capable in reality), I cannot say for certain that the buffs alone will be able to wash away that tarnished reputation of AST.

It's sad. To break that vicious circle ("I will not play AST because people say it's bad, because people don't play it enough to know it's good, because people say it's bad, because people don't play it enough to know it's good...") it'd only take people to actually play it in order to raise awareness and the general skill level of AST players. Because right now, one of the biggest issue is that since "nobody" plays AST, people didn't had the chance to get used to how it plays paired with a WHM (and SCH to some extand, but D.AST is already almost a thing), so I'm guessing that's part of why they are scared of that job to begin with.

tried a couple of run just now and i must say i still choose diurnal over nocturnal, the more "HP restored barrier" buff is nice but overall unless the fight favor it, i still prefer diurnal thanks to it regen.

as for the card, people just happy with whatever i gave them as long its useful, at the very least now the card give you this "card icon" buff above your target head to make sure the target know he was getting buff from me so thats pretty nice i guess lol

I'll be taking Nocturnal to shield myself in new dungeon runs so that I can save myself from getting one shot by fucked up mechanics. Gubal was surprisingly punishing. I can't wait to try the other dungeon.

This is an extreme improvement over Hullbreaker. <3

Now that nocturnal is buffed, is there a fight/boss/dungeon where nocturnal is more favorable than diurnal?

The only one i can think is boss/primal that aoe heavy, like every primal doing thiat 1 aoe before the BGM change phase or nidhog with its several aoe blast phase... Cant think the rest lf it lol

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Originally Posted by gumas

Now that nocturnal is buffed, is there a fight/boss/dungeon where nocturnal is more favorable than diurnal?

The only one i can think is boss/primal that aoe heavy, like every primal doing thiat 1 aoe before the BGM change phase or nidhog with its several aoe blast phase... Cant think the rest lf it lol

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Honestly having someone capable of shielding is very beneficial in raid content unless the content you're running is trivial or you overgear it. Our ST shield being instant and efficient makes it pretty great to snipe heal someone who just took unexpected damage, too.

I'd personally use Nocturnal when paired with a WHM in 100% of the new content as stuff like preys is extremely common in this patch's fights, and damage can get pretty high given that we're at relatively low gear levels again.

For solo healing and dungeons, you'll probably want to stick to Diurnal unless you can outright deny mechanics by shielding them like in Hullbreaker HM.

Yeah thanks to Nocturnal buff, iam pretty much switch to it if iam paired with whm, the regen from whm and shield from my noc really make a good combo. For standard duty finder? Diurnal all the way for now

I feel that our stat priority have changed a lot now

Seems it be Mind > piety >spell speed > crit /det

Our benefit 2 proc makes crit less needed and spell speed more needed as u want to cast as much as possible whilst holding the benefit 2 proc

Also the more benefit 1 u get out the more likely u will get the proc for a 100% garentee crit with this we be able to dance more in cleric stance when we have the proc

I think this devalues crit by a lot and values spell speed more especially in noct stance and since we dont get 2x shield on barrier on crits

So for me im focus on pie/speed/ and accuracy melds also will change my relic stats to accuracy and speed or pie/speed depending on the new caps

But i would need a thoery crafter for this so can someone check plz want to know of benefit 2 proc devalues crit by alot and of spell speed gives more procs

Even with the buff, I still prefer with SCH because AST always makes me busy to shield tank before pull.

Crit hasn't been devalued at all with these changes, in fact I think the value went up. Crit increases crit potency as well as chance. Also, CO's extension now gives 3 to 4 extra HoT ticks, which are 3-4 extra chances for a higher healing bonus.

I will never stack Det on a healer, apparently the scaling is too low to ever make a realistic difference. Crit can make a difference.

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Originally Posted by Rennies

Crit hasn't been devalued at all with these changes, in fact I think the value went up. Crit increases crit potency as well as chance. Also, CO's extension now gives 3 to 4 extra HoT ticks, which are 3-4 extra chances for a higher healing bonus.

I will never stack Det on a healer, apparently the scaling is too low to ever make a realistic difference. Crit can make a difference.

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Yea I agree with you, Crit in general is just better than det, but you will notice a boost if you have high det (gear with crit AND det).