Job Tweak Suggestions Healer Roles

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Originally Posted by loreleidiangelo

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Very well put sir. 1000% agree.

Since the button is in place(and probably more difficult then it's worth to remove it). At least give it an actual risk-reward system.

Why do you want the fairy to be affected by Cleric Stance ?

It allows scholar to help the main healer while he's dpsing.
It has been like this since a long time and it's part of the gameplay of scholar.

What's with this need of wanting the fairy to be nerfed while it provides a great help to the party, precisely in raid.

I really don't get it.

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Originally Posted by KDSilver

Why do you want the fairy to be affected by Cleric Stance ?

It allows scholar to help the main healer while he's dpsing.
It has been like this since a long time and it's part of the gameplay of scholar.

What's with this need of wanting the fairy to be nerfed while it provides a great help to the party, precisely in raid.

I really don't get it.

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Personally, I think the fairy is overpowered. It was my first thought when I initially started playing. It replaces the actual healer entirely in 4-man dungeons. No other character has that amount of autonomy, to any degree remotely close. I've also seen a SCH's fairy replace the 2nd healer in 8-mans. I'm not saying it needs to go away. But it definitely could stand for some nerfing

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Originally Posted by Tsumes

Personally, I think the fairy is overpowered. It was my first thought when I initially started playing. It replaces the actual healer entirely in 4-man dungeons. No other character has that amount of autonomy, to any degree remotely close. I've also seen a SCH's fairy replace the 2nd healer in 8-mans. I'm not saying it needs to go away. But it definitely could stand for some nerfing

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Maybe it replaces the healer's job because... The act of healing a 4 man dungeon is crazy easy, yet we still have healers spamming cure every gcd. Also, any tank can solo Calcabrina in antitower. That's pretty independent for level 60 content. If you're being autonomous on an sch, you're a bad sch, no better than a black mage that spams blizzard or a whm that spams cure. (Not saying you do this, but if a player did. )

You should be manually casting embrace, every 3 seconds, to get the max effect, that's while dpsing or healing yourself. If you are entirely relying on the fairy ai to heal, you aren't using her right.

Also, below 50, she has a 300 potency heal. Once you hit 60 it is only 200 potency (Whispering Dawn was also affected.) It was a nerf when hw came out, since sch gained better aoe healing. So she's already been nerfed 33% of her healing potency.

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Originally Posted by Rawrz

Maybe it replaces the healer's job because... The act of healing a 4 man dungeon is crazy easy, yet we still have healers spamming cure every gcd. Also, any tank can solo Calcabrina in antitower. That's pretty independent for level 60 content. If you're being autonomous on an sch, you're a bad sch, no better than a black mage that spams blizzard or a whm that spams cure.

You should be manually casting embrace, every 3 seconds, to get the max effect, that's while dpsing or healing yourself. If you are entirely relying on the fairy ai to heal, you aren't using her right.

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Wait, people actually manually cast embrace? That sounds like a massive pain to deal with when you already have 3-6 pet cooldowns + placement commands in addition to the quite large skillset of a Scholar.

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Originally Posted by Rennies

Wait, people actually manually cast embrace? That sounds like a massive pain to deal with when you already have 3-6 pet cooldowns + placement commands in addition to the quite large skillset of a Scholar.

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The ai won't heal unless someone is below 80%. It's best to precast and heal before 80%, since over heal isn't an issue with mp efficiency. The earlier you get her to start healing, the more healing she can keep up with. This also synergizes with the spell speed buff she can proc for you.

4-man is easy. If the fairy is enough, that means you don't need more heal.
8-man content from the story can easily be solohealed.

What about raid like midas savage now?
If we're talking about a nerf based on easy content, it has no sense.

Think about the usefulness of skills based on the hardest content.
You'll want and need the fairy's help to give an extra-dps and help the main heal.

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Originally Posted by Rennies

Wait, people actually manually cast embrace? That sounds like a massive pain to deal with when you already have 3-6 pet cooldowns + placement commands in addition to the quite large skillset of a Scholar.

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I play with a controller. Since my 3 dots and ruin are on my dpad, I mash the square button to trigger this macro

/pac embrace <tt>
/pac embrace <tt>
/pac embrace <t>
/micon embrace pet selene

Also since the fairy macro is in the same section as my most used heals, I can tap it between casting for more embraces.

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Originally Posted by Ragology

/pac embrace <tt>
/pac embrace <tt>
/pac embrace <t>

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This macro works for some, but depending on your frame rate or if Eos/selene are busy, she might only "hear" the last command to embrace <t>, which, if you're targeting an enemy, she will heal herself. She will also never heal <t> unless they aren't targeting anything. @_@

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Originally Posted by Rawrz

She will also never heal <t> unless they aren't targeting anything. @_@

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You know, this is what I've always thought but someone said that I'm a bad scholar if I don't have the "embrace <t>" line in there. I think I'm gonna go back to having the single "embrace tt" line for the macro since that's why I made it to begin with.

I manually manage Eos' cooldowns, Selene I leave on Sic because she's faster to silence than I am, but casting Embrance manually is just too much for my little WHM brain.

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Originally Posted by Ragology

You know, this is what I've always thought but someone said that I'm a bad scholar if I don't have the "embrace <t>" line in there. I think I'm gonna go back to having the single "embrace tt" line for the macro since that's why I made it to begin with.

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I like to repeat lines excessively, because this framerate problem, becomes somewhat of a blessing, since it will psuedo- queue the action, based on frame rate. So you might actually want to repeat the tt part of the macro, just so Lilly has more time to listen. :3

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Originally Posted by Rawrz

Maybe it replaces the healer's job because... The act of healing a 4 man dungeon is crazy easy, yet we still have healers spamming cure every gcd. Also, any tank can solo Calcabrina in antitower. That's pretty independent for level 60 content. If you're being autonomous on an sch, you're a bad sch, no better than a black mage that spams blizzard or a whm that spams cure. (Not saying you do this, but if a player did. )

Also, below 50, she has a 300 potency heal. Once you hit 60 it is only 200 potency (Whispering Dawn was also affected.) It was a nerf when hw came out, since sch gained better aoe healing. So she's already been nerfed 33% of her healing potency.

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Regardless of the difficulty. If a built in mechanic is able to replace a human player. It might be an issue. By replace I mean be able to clear the dungeon, regardless of speed. It may be an easy mode tactic for post-60 players. But it's still a bit overboard.

Guys, the fairy IS overpowered, there's no discussion. Even Yoshida acknowledged it by the start of Heavensward, and you can see they nerfed pretty heavily the fairy growth between levels 50-60 and plan on nerfing even more.

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Originally Posted by Tsumes

Regardless of the difficulty. If a built in mechanic is able to replace a human player. It might be an issue. By replace I mean be able to clear the dungeon, regardless of speed. It may be an easy mode tactic for post-60 players. But it's still a bit overboard.

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In any dungeon, a tank can solo survive AND KILL anything at any given point that would require a healer, all by themselves at their own pace. So that point isn't exactly valid, unless you're saying tanks are in themselves a broken "mechanic."

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Originally Posted by Fevelle

Guys, the fairy IS overpowered, there's no discussion. Even Yoshida acknowledged it by the start of Heavensward, and you can see they nerfed pretty heavily the fairy growth between levels 50-60 and plan on nerfing even more.

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It was more or less a direct potency nerf to 66% of the original value. He said that the fairy would catch up as our ilevel increased, but obviously he just meant it would heal more (which means nothing, because everyone's vit would directly go up with it.)

If someone wants to play SCH and be bad at it, then they can go ahead and auto follow someone. If that doesn't get you kicked, then you have a really enabling party, who like slow gimped pulls. A casual dungeon run means nothing, when the content was designed for 20-60 ilevels below with a tank who is equally as out-geared as you are.

Argue about why the fairy is overpowered.

And I say it again, but what about in a raid situation.
I don't care about the 'casual content' to make some fixing.

Now please give me some strong and valid reasons to nerf her.

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Originally Posted by Rawrz

In any dungeon, a tank can solo survive AND KILL anything at any given point that would require a healer, all by themselves at their own pace. So that point isn't exactly valid, unless you're saying tanks are in themselves a broken "mechanic."

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No, he wouldn't. Because he'd run out of time, long before he got to the last boss.

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Originally Posted by EnaChleo

I know Sch is considered fine by a lot of people, but them rank traits, Int up, and the Pet Action on Crit sees very little use, I know their base form is a dps, but it doesn't make the int any more valued by me, at least the 12 points is pretty small. Pet actions though, I feel like it's the second coming of christ when I see that spell speed boost.

Again not to say Sch is weak, just hope we get to like, replace traits in the future or something, SUPER TRAITS

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You cannot change the traits unless screwing with smn

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Originally Posted by Tsumes

No, he wouldn't. Because he'd run out of time, long before he got to the last boss.

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But would he die?

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Originally Posted by EnaChleo

I know Sch is considered fine by a lot of people, but them rank traits, Int up, and the Pet Action on Crit sees very little use, I know their base form is a dps, but it doesn't make the int any more valued by me, at least the 12 points is pretty small. Pet actions though, I feel like it's the second coming of christ when I see that spell speed boost.

Again not to say Sch is weak, just hope we get to like, replace traits in the future or something, SUPER TRAITS

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Sch gets the same amount of Base MND as WHM/AST at 60, so the trait doesn't help or hurt us, because the job stone makes up for it. I see the SS boost all the time on SCH! Just gotta have high crit and keep Embrace up every time it goes off CD. xD

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Originally Posted by Rawrz

But would he die?

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Depends on the dungeon. Regardless, he still wouldn't finish the instance. Which is the entire point.
You can't flip a rule to make your argument valid.

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Originally Posted by KDSilver

Argue about why the fairy is overpowered.

And I say it again, but what about in a raid situation.
I don't care about the 'casual content' to make some fixing.

Now please give me some strong and valid reasons to nerf her.

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FFXIV is way more then just 8 man savage raids... The fact that everyone seems to think it is, is cringe worthy to say the least. As if the point to your journey throughout the entire game is to do savage raids endlessly as fast as possible.

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Originally Posted by Tsumes

Depends on the dungeon. Regardless, he still wouldn't finish the instance. Which is the entire point.
You can't flip a rule to make your argument valid.

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Ok so how is it that Eos or Selene could finish the dungeon? If we are looking at equal playing ground, Eos and Selene represent survivability. You are the one who said we could take all the time in the world to finish, "regardless of speed." You take 2 DPS with you and AFK follow on your SCH, which you seem to think is a real thing at sixty, more so than the whm who is watching netflix spamming cure, along with that tank. Assuming you nor your pet get cleaved and die, Dungeon gets cleared. This time, the healer afks at the start of the dungeon. They still clear, because tanks survive, especially "regardless of speed." So what does Eos or Selene bring to the encounter? They let the tanks pull a little more, which helps them clear faster, but this is all "regardless of speed" remember, so she doesn't really bring a true benefit if the tank could have survived all along. Man tanks are broken.

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Originally Posted by Tsumes

FFXIV is way more then just 8 man savage raids... The fact that everyone seems to think it is, is cringe worthy to say the least. As if the point to your journey throughout the entire game is to do savage raids endlessly as fast as possible.

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If you balance a game on the lowest level content, you can't have high achieving content. Gear alone shouldn't carry you through everything, like it does in Expert Roulette.

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Originally Posted by loreleidiangelo

To summarize, HERE is how Cleric Stance would actually be high-risk/high-reward:

-it cancels all HoTs on everyone in your party
-it Dissipates the fairy
-it lasts for 10 seconds and is also on the GCD (meaning you can't just click it off and Lustrate/Tetra/Dignity before activating it again within the same GCD) All these skills are Off the GCD, so it wouldnt affect them still
-maybe remove Stoneskin and Adlo too, though that's probably overkill haha

As long as you can basically stack HoTs and have the fairy unaffected by it, there is not any real "risk" at all to Cleric Stance.

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Just saw this e.e

How about instead, we create a punishment mechanic, you know to keep healers on track. DPSing wasn't a good enough way to keep you busy, so well add healer only mechanics:
-Whenever you overheal by more than 50% of someone's health, you lose 20% of your max mana. (careful with those cure III's!)
-Whenever you stand idle for more than 5 seconds, you gain a stacking healing down debuff. I'm sure some mechanics would exploit this.
-Using the same healing skill twice in a row, even on separate targets reduces its potency by 50%.
-Reduce the duration of all HoTs to 9 seconds and Shields to within 5 seconds, to keep the healers even more active.
-Raise or Resurrection cannot be used with swiftcast. Healers should feel this punishment. Keeping people alive is their only job at this point. If the DPS died to a mechanic, you need to decide if they are worth raising.


Both of our lists will not make it into the game and thats a relief to me.

Wow! I had no idea that so many want changes to the Scholar Job. I never played the Job much at all. Keep on posting more of your ideas on what you would want changed before patch 4.0. :D

I never said that FFXIV was all about savage raid. I absolutely don't think that at all.

However, as Rawrz said... you can't balance or make adjusment on skills based on easiest content.
That's why I want some proof that the fairy is overpowered based on the hardest content.
What if the nerf will make scholar loose a lot of healing potency?

What skills exactly need this nerf? Embrace? Whispering Dawn?
I'd really like to know where's the problem and in which case it causes trouble to have "that much" healing potency.

Also... what's with the fact that the fairy is a great assistance for the whole party in term of healing?

I'm not altogether happy with Selene's skill synergy for one. Fey Wind is easily the most annoying thing to have to cast manually, but her debuff-wipe and silence abilities are things you definitely want manual control for. As a PS4 player (and thus without ACT assistance) I can either suffer through the hell of manual fey wind, or just leave her on auto and feel like a scrub. In dungeons I will 100% do the latter, and let her just blow that debuff wipe on things she can't clean.

I'm also of a mind that SCH has no real AoE burst damage. This is part of the class, obviously, and SMN are similar and may actually share this complaint, but when you find yourself spamming blizzard II on mob sets because it's your best option then it starts to feel just a little sad. SCH's DPS benefit is the low mana cost, and you can literally dot+broil for days, but you're often at a loss when fragile adds that die well before your dots can tick much start spawning, such as the five Blaster mirages drop down or Ravana's butterflies. Couple this with Broil being the weakest of healer nukes and it feels a little obvious that you're the weakest burst in the barrel. Now obviously this is class design and WHM/AST are intended to excel beyond SCH at this point (as they are forever unloved by auto-healing fairy-bots), but SCH and SMN have a very unique spell that only NIN comes close to, and that's Shadowflare, which is a lot of fun specifically because you can easily set it up in advance like a trap zone before things spawn (ie, knowing the fight). So while I don't expect a Holy of our own, what about an ability to detonate the Shadowflare zone with an aetherize stack? Make it a player-detonated Blaster mine to trade its remaining dot timer into an immediate damage spike, even if only once every thirty seconds like other stack-use abilities? I think that would be kind of fun.

Lastly maybe make energy drain not consume an aetherize stack if it misses? ....Please? It really drives me crazy.

Rawrz, I don't think you understood the point of my post at all. I'm arguing to remove Cleric Stance because it fails as a risk/reward mechanic due to HoTs snapshotting and the fairy operating independent of it's effects, and have healer DPS just scale off of one stat, MND, instead. Nowhere am I advocating removing it so healers don't "have" to DPS and can just stand around running circles/jumping/overhealing like mad. I just find it's use cumbersome and not anywhere close to serving it's original intention.

I suspect the real reason they'll never remove it is because healers will be able to go back to 8-WHM Holylol trains in PVP like they did with Secure, though. Short of removing healer DPS abilities in PVP outright, which would cause massive problems with the spells that have CC/utility, Cleric Stance is one way of maintaining healer balance in PVP at least.

EDIT: after re-reading, I KINDA get what you're saying, and while some of those mechanics like the overhealing costing more mp and HoTs lasting less time I'd actually be okay with, I think the issue is mostly that "main healer" toolkits like WHM and DiAST are too powerful for how the content is tuned. Couple that with BRDs/MCHs providing a resource regen that is usually only available through mana potions with hefty cooldowns in other games, and you have a raid setting where healers can use their most powerful abilities (some of which are on the GCD!) with ease, and without too much worry about resource management. Hence, the off-heal role is brought along mostly to shield for stuff that's otherwise a one-shot, to provide backup healing if the main healer needs it, and to DPS otherwise. In other games I've raided in, both healers had to alternate powerful healing moves because they were on long cooldowns, and everyone had to assist with healing because one healer just didn't have the mana or the toolkit to keep a whole group going indefinitely.

TL;DR punishment mechanics aren't really the solution to lack of healing difficulty, there's too many reasons that are fundamental to the game as to why healer DPS meta is a thing (BRD/MCH MP restore easing worries about resources, healing potencies and cooldowns being too strong/on short timers, etc).

Of course, this is a bit off-topic. I still maintain that Cleric Stance as a button is better off going the way of the dodo, even if the healer DPS meta is here to stay.

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Originally Posted by Rawrz

Gear alone shouldn't carry you through everything, like it does in Expert Roulette.

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True. I can agree with that.

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Originally Posted by loreleidiangelo

I still maintain that Cleric Stance as a button is better off going the way of the dodo, even if the healer DPS meta is here to stay.

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Agreed. It's pretty safe to say Cleric Stances does nothing to improve gameplay. It only does the exact opposite.

Personally, If I didn't have to smash a button every GCD in order to deal damage. I would DPS until the cows came home. But that's not the case. lol. So I'll likely keep doing what I'm doing. Not much doubt in my mind that other players are doing the same thing. Cleric stance is a needless hurdle.

I would love to hear a developer's thoughts on this. I'm curious as to why they did it this way in the first place. It must've been a good idea initially, otherwise it wouldn't be in place. No other job class has flip between stats in order to be useful.

Healers and tanks tend not to have difficult dps rotations. Stances like CS are designed to make it so that your dps is a function of how well you understand the rate and timing of incoming damage. In other words, your dps becomes a useful measure of how knowledgeable you are about healing timings, rather than how skilled you are at performing a dps rotation.

Amongst its many other functions, your fairy acts as a HoT. HoTs snapshot because they're there to help clean up autos. I know that there are some healers out there who prefer games where you spam more "heal buttons" to keep your tank alive against a continuous stream of damage, but I don't believe that manually responding to autos actually adds any complexity to your decision-making (it's just an exercise in button mashing). This is why you have unmarked cleaves and AoEs to make the timings more interesting.

I think the reason why CS is oGCD and free with a shorter recast than the tank stances is because you're usually given significantly less time to prepare for the next boss action than we do. Five seconds is significantly shorter on a caster than it is on a melee job. You need a way to differentiate between the healer who manages to squeeze off that extra DoT cast and the one who doesn't, and making CS weaving overly restrictive blurs the performance difference between these two.

If I could change one thing about CS, it would be to give it more obvious visual cues to show it's activation/deactivation to help keep track of the transition. But I suppose this is less of an issue for experienced healers, who seem to have a preternatural awareness of what buffs are on every member of the party.