Your mentor system is Horribly Horribly Flawed.

@Lace Valeria I get what you are saying. While I am not claiming it never happens, in my own experience, I have never personally witnessed a new person being rude to a mentor, only the other way around.

I say this completely unbiased - I have never sought help from a mentor, nor have I ever been one (although I could be).

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Originally Posted by Velox

Except the current SSS primal or top tier recipes are not beginner content. Mentors are there to help NEWBIES. Newbies don't need advice for how to handle meteor placement in Ozma, or what DPS is needed to kill adds in Nidhogg, or the best way to HQ an Eikon set. Newbies need info about how stats work, or how to unlock your chocobo, where to find that next quest, or what their role is in a party. You don't need to be a top tier player to mentor a newbie, you just need to know enough about the basics. A kindergarten teacher doesn't need to win the Nobel prize in Genetics to teach science. They just need to know enough to teach the beginner essentials.

Your post leads me to believe you don't really know what a mentor is.

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Given the amount of people who go right when someone usually states at the start of the ozma fight back and LEFT I'm led to believe that for a majority of new players, FFXIV is their first mmo. Also people still forget to kill adds in a boss fight (a mechanic used in EVERY boss encounter that has adds since 2.0 launch) which leads to a wipe. If new players can't even adapt to things on screen like dodging aoes or placing meteors, how can we expect them to adapt to things off screen like current meta, bis stats, min/maxing a job?

This is where the mentor program failed. I'm not suggesting that mentors need to be maxed with raid content under their belts but they at least need to have some proven experience in their said classes, ex Tanks need to have Tankless job II, etc. Just as you said a kindergarten teacher doesn't need to win the Nobel Prize in Genetics to teach science but they do need to have at least a Degree/Diploma and not be just some person who walked off the street with a resume.

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Originally Posted by Marxam

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How exactly is this a failure of the mentor program? If people can't learn the difference between left and right or are unable to adapt to things on the screen, no amount of explaining from Mentors will change that. The situation you outlined is that of said players being incapable or unwilling to play at that particular skill level. The only difference between a Mentor explaining something and a text document or forum thread explaining something is the fact that one is in game and the other isn't. The ability to adapt is on the player, not the source of information.

I'm a quiet mentor. I'll give advice when it's needed and that's it i'm not going to hold their hand to me that's not good mentorship they need to learn themselves from the advice given.

Should of ran the mentorship program similar to FFXI Must have 5000+ hours of game-time to become one. There were very very few of us on a server but the quality of those mentors were outstanding. Quite a few that are mentors should not be one, while those that would make great mentor don't want to put up with the BS of it.

Remove the Mentor roulette and the rewards for it and we will se how many stick around.

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Originally Posted by Melondra

Should of ran the mentorship program similar to FFXI Must have 5000+ hours of game-time to become one. There were very very few of us on a server but the quality of those mentors were outstanding. Quite a few that are mentors should not be one, while those that would make great mentor don't want to put up with the BS of it.

Remove the Mentor roulette and the rewards for it and we will se how many stick around.

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That was not the FFXI Mentor requirements. The only requirements for Mentor in FFXI was have a job at level 30+ or have /played of 180+ hours. Not quire sure where you got the 5000+ hours from.

yea that sounds about right.

There are no rules given for being a mentor. The way I play, especially with new people, is I keep my mouth shut and pretend every dungeon is brand new and no one has ever done it before. If/when people die, then I may tell them what they need to do. Otherwise I let people experience the content and learn from doing. No spoilers.

Most of the mentors I notice, I only notice because they're being awful to someone. I click on them, see the crown, and I am not surprised. There's also the ironic Crowns that sit there silently saying absolutely nothing when someone is obviously struggling or does not understand mechanics.

I see the Crown as a pretentious status symbol, it certainly does not have anything near a 1:1 relationship with being helpful, supportive, or educational.

Today's leveling Roulette, I had a Non-Mentor PLD who spent the entire Qarn obsessively explaining every detail to the two Sprouts. Possibly way too many details (I was fidgeting and falling asleep, but remained polite), but the two Sprouts seemed to have a lot of fun and enjoy their run.

MSQ Roulette? Mentor BLM pulls every boss while the New Player Bonus Sprouts are locked outside in cutscenes. Mentor Tank early-pulls anything the BLM was too slow to get first. Everyone leaves immediately without saying a word at the end.

Clearly, the issue is not "all Mentor = Problem player" (I have encountered at least several dedicated and helpful mentors). Instead it's that "a lot of Problem players = Mentor", tarnishing the reputation overall. I've met multiple Sprouts now that have expressed a fear of mentors and an assumption the Crown means they're going to be bullied soon. That's probably not working as intended.

Mentorship shouldn't have requirements to begin with. I'd like to mentor, I love to help and take my time to explain dungeon mechanics or do longer routes to get more exp to those who need it, but I can't access the mentor roulette because I'm not 60 yet, or haven't done a thousand dungeons, or beat some raid... Why do I need those things to help a newbie go through Dzmael Darkhold?

I have yet to meet a mentor in duty who actually acted like one. I've seen mentors pulling ahead of tanks as DPSs, or mentors leaving duty upon entrance because they didn't like it. That defeats the spirit of mentorship completely. And I think the fact is, most of those people are purely driven by the rewards of mentorship program. That misses the whole point.

If it were for me, I'd remove all requirements and rewards for mentorship (put the rewards into something else, I don't know). That way we're sure that only those who want to bother helping out will do it.

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Originally Posted by Letbluevannback

Mentorship shouldn't have requirements to begin with. I'd like to mentor, I love to help and take my time to explain dungeon mechanics or do longer routes to get more exp to those who need it, but I can't access the mentor roulette because I'm not 60 yet, or haven't done a thousand dungeons, or beat some raid... Why do I need those things to help a newbie go through Dzmael Darkhold

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You don't need those things.
Simply queue up for DD and help those who are also queued.

I think the mentor achievement should also apply to the new player bonus.
Your're helping a player be able to finish X content. Shouldn't be limited to only the duty finder. It would help those learn parties fill up more so if you think about it.
Also the bar & rewards need to be lowered and better. Whatever sure keep it 2000. But add more rewards in between. Every 300 points would be a good. The Cap & dragon headpiece isn't worth my time. Add some minions & a costumes & another mount for the 1000 achievement.

Also boost the Eso & Poetics reward on Mentor duty to like 100.

There now you have a working system everyone will use often.

You're not gonna get friendly people all the time, but you will help those newbies clear the content.

What I dislike about the Mentor system is the Roulette because they do not exclusive pair us mentors with the sprouts. MANY MANY times I end up in the latest dungeons or many extreme fights and there are NO sprouts. All are veterans all ready. Mentor roulette should pair us with sprouts so we can help/teach them. If at least would the roulette get us 1 sprout in a Light party, well then might be at least worthy but zero? really? With zero sprouts in the party the mentor roulette lacks of purpose.

If someone asks for help or advice in a dungeon I usually just give it and help out no big deal it really should just be common sense. I do agree though, I've seen so many people with crowns who have just been downright disrespectful and zero help to the new people.

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Originally Posted by Ronyx

What I dislike about the Mentor system is the Roulette because they do not exclusive pair us mentors with the sprouts. MANY MANY times I end up in the latest dungeons or many extreme fights and there are NO sprouts. All are veterans all ready. Mentor roulette should pair us with sprouts so we can help/teach them. If at least would the roulette get us 1 sprout in a Light party, well then might be at least worthy but zero? really? With zero sprouts in the party the mentor roulette lacks of purpose.

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Not all inexperienced players are sprouts, as a mentor you should be helping anyone including other mentors if they do need help.

I agree with the various posts that the system is flawed and higher requirements are needed (systematically and psychologically) for it to work.

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Originally Posted by MihaelB

Not all inexperienced players are sprouts, as a mentor you should be helping anyone including other mentors if they do need help.

I agree with the various posts that the system is flawed and higher requirements are needed (systematically and psychologically) for it to work.

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Well yah I guess but the mentor system was created to help sprouts really but in general, veterans and other mentors usually do not need help and also usually do not take advice from other people because they feel they already know them all. hehe It was not meant to babysit them from start to endgame. Theres a time when they need to spread their own wings with all they had learn from mentors.

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Originally Posted by Ronyx

Well yah I guess but the mentor system was created to help sprouts really but in general, veterans and other mentors usually do not need help and also usually do not take advice from other people because they feel they already know them all. hehe

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The Novice Network was created for Mentors and Sprouts to have a common place to gather in order for Mentors to assist. DR: Mentor was created to assist all players on their first time in the instance. That's why everything but Coil, Coil Savage, 3.X EX Primals, and Alex Savage are in it.

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

You should feel like, "Oh, cool, I'll get a nice trinket in a couple years, after doing what I'd normally be doing anyway."

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Should and will are two very different concepts. I, honestly, feel it was a mistake to include a mount as a reward. This just encourages a lot of people to grind it because they want said mount.

I've also seen many people with (PvE) mentor crown who are very rude and / or bad players who I can't imagine offering good advice to anyone. This is why I only wear my status when I'm doing the mentor roulette and I'm prepared to do the content in that mentor role. That doesn't of course prevent me from being helpful or offering advice in other instances. But I think that without the crown I'm not as required to be the person to explain mechanics etc. if I feel tired or whatever.

I would definitely support some kind of a mentor grading system so that people running an instance with their crowns on could be graded and too many negative gradings would remove their status for a while (and maybe after a few losses the crown would be lost permanently).

I don't even get why they add that mentor system....This is a MMO, why do ppl need a reward for helping each others ? oO

I'm not a mentor, got the 3 class but not the bazillion needed dungeon. Plus i'm an awfull DPs so, even with one 60 i can't imagine myself giving DPS advises so i don't have my shiny crown (actually, i'd prefer the leaf, it's cute :3) but hey, it does not stop me from helping the leaf, teaching them thing if they need (and if i can), give advices for our experience in the game to get better (we may cross path again one day or another, who knows).

I don't do this for the rewards (although i'm a bit disapointed not to get that flying unicorn T.T) or self estime, but because it seems normal to me.
When i started MMO, long time ago, i remember my guild members spend hours and hours in dungeons to teachh me how to heal propally (still get nightmares about it....for all of us i think xD) so, today i do the same because....well it's normal when you have the experience to try and help others if they have difficulites playing their class but i fear those after me won't do it because it makes them "waste their time" and because "go watch / read guide on google" :/

HS : Taika, your Elezen is really, really cute :3

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Originally Posted by Celef

I don't even get why they add that mentor system....This is a MMO, why do ppl need a reward for helping each others ? oO

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The rewards come from doing the roulette which shortens the queue times for content. The immediate rewards are smaller than you get with Expert roulette. Mentoring people for the sake of mentoring in Novice Chat, for example, doesn't give any rewards and has worked wonderfully on my server.

Truth be told, I was psyched to be a Mentor myself, but at this point in time I run around without my crown activated and I barely do the Roulette either - I've had a handful fellow, err, mentors, who just made me feel bad and this kind of generalisation makes me want to reactivate the crown even less.
On that note, however, if someone asks for advice I'm more than happy to give it. Hell, if I notice something and I ask if the person's cool with a piece of advice, I do try giving it. There's nothing like a Brayflox with three sproutlings who happen to have the same mothertongue as you so you spend the entire run chatting, explaining strats and shamefully admitting you don't know attack or mob names in German - those newbies and me had a blast in there, with them telling me what some stuff was called in German, and with them being really grateful for the advice and strats I offered and doing everything to their best ability.

On the other hand, on my alt, I've had a handful honestly helpful mentors when I was catching up on content, with 'em giving me advice on stuff like how to not overheal and everything before we even had one pull. I felt so bad having to say "Thanks for the advice, I appreciate it, but this here's my alt, I've got all healers on level 60 on my main^^" (thankfully most just laughed with me and we had smooth runs).

I got into a Crysalis with a tank that was a mentor. The DPS popped too many of the orbs and it killed me. Other healer wouldn't rez so we all died right at the end but still beat it.

I was told that I was carried by the whole team and that I was mad because I was bad. Lol. This dude hasn't even been in 2.0 Coil. Most mentor's are crap. I haven't seen one do a darn thing.

Seems to me that the overstuffed, high population servers are the ones which cultivate the most aggressive, rude, and selfish mentors. Most likely a product of a city type mentality where caring about strangers is counterproductive and even dangerous.I've seen such antisocial attitudes in the high population days of WoW. My server is low population and more community minded and I've never heard of such incidents outside DF. Just a theory though. The mentor system works, but they can't reasonably grant mentor status based on personality, only on gaming experience and time. Note I'm only talking about the bad mentors in particular on those high pop servers, not generalising all high pop mentors as being bad.

When I had first heard of the Mentor system, my first reaction was a sigh of relief, thanking a potential circumstance that would allow me a proper way to help other players. But nearly right out of the gate, I see nothing but turmoil and mayhem spewing from the hands of those that have either experienced the system, or have friends whom have experienced it. Something about the major upset drove me away from applying. Just reading about the negative outcome felt like too much to deal with. I hope to finally give it another chance again soon, but I'm still a tad wary.

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Originally Posted by CheshirePuss

When I had first heard of the Mentor system, my first reaction was a sigh of relief, thanking a potential circumstance that would allow me a proper way to help other players. But nearly right out of the gate, I see nothing but turmoil and mayhem spewing from the hands of those that have either experienced the system, or have friends whom have experienced it. Something about the major upset drove me away from applying. Just reading about the negative outcome felt like too much to deal with. I hope to finally give it another chance again soon, but I'm still a tad wary.

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For me, it's the downsides that far outweigh the upsides, to the point that I'd rather help people without being a mentor. People use the crowns for shiggles, the novice network is incredibly flooded with idle chatter which more often than not has spoiled the story or gameplay for green leafs, and the fact that a novice can't leave on their on volition is a bit of a problem, especially when they can be invited against their will.

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

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This simply proves my point though. I had actually wanted to use the system for its original purpose. People wonder what the point of the system is, when the point is right there in-front of them. It's just people choose to be stupid with their responsibility. It's incredibly inconvenient to think that the only way I'd be able to help any new player is to either stalk the town like a creep, or somehow by pure chance, run into a new player during a run. I had hoped to better that circumstance with the system when they teased us with it. Due to how nuked the system is right now though, the best response may be to just first wipe the mentor list, give new leafs a Report Mentor option, and use the time it takes for trust worthy and toxic mentors to apply, as a retardant necessary to steadily filter out those who are misusing the system. Since it is clear that what we have right now is not working.

Novices can permanently leave the network by disabling their New Adventurer status with /nastatus off.

Honestly I found the quality of the Novice Network on Ultros vastly improved once they got rid of the auto join for online mentors and made it opt in. Idle chatter happens sometimes but I see new players participating in that and making friends as well.
I always see questions being answered and usually at least 1 volunteer helping new players queue for instances, get help with hunting logs, quests, ect.

I do think we need a feedback system for mentors to weed out those that only care about rewards and are rude to new players in instances. However my experiences with the Mentor system have been more positive than negative overall.

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Your mentor system is Horribly Horribly Flawed.

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Don't know much about how it works, but I'm guessing that the real flaw is more with the mentors themselves, and not the system. Mainly the fact that mentors are human beings, ie. with the potential to be just as douchey and hypocritical as the next guy (from my experience, I only recall a mentor saying something constructive in party chat maybe one time. Most others are just as silent as everyone else). If anything, the whole system should never have been implemented to begin with. "How do you lancer?" "Gridania, look for the lancer's guild on the map." "Found it. Thanks!" Don't need to be a mentor to do that. :rolleyes:

Its usually the high population servers that have problems with bad mentors. You also have to remember mentors are human. And mentors on high populated servers mostly do it for self gain.

I know on my server people help out new players as much as possible. Even if someone asks a simple question in a city, people are jumping to answer it with positivity, and not smart remarks like you would expect on a heavily populated server.

I still like the idea someone posted in another thread..


The mentor icon shouldn't be a crown.
It should be a watering can.


As the mentors are encouraging the growth of our little sprouts!

I actually need to remove my crown too. It feels too awkward. The last situation I was in was Snowcloak, lvl 50 roulette. I was the only other English speaking player (whm) as I play on a JP server so I felt obligated since I had a crown and spoke English to help our n00b tank. He was awful. Never used flash (was a pld) couldn't keep hate, wouldn't listen to strategies for bosses which made the Yeti a long and painful boss fight. He died so many times on Fenrir I gave up raising him and just let our dragoon tank Fenrir and we killed it with just the three of us. It feels really awkward trying to help people but having them not listen at all. I mean my students don't want to be in class, and I understand that, but at least they listen and participate and try to learn while we are in class. =p

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Originally Posted by Culfinrandir

It's a crazy system that, in my opinion, is severely flawed. I can't become a 'battle' mentor as I only have a DPS & 2 Healers mentioned but I help players as much as possible & have zero expectation of a reward. A thank you would be great, but even that isn't essential as I know that some people don't even have keyboards initially.

I've seen what goes on in Novice Network Chat & I want nothing to do with it until it becomes a place used by those who genuinely want to help. I'd also like to see a separation of battle & craft/gather network chats as I there can be different mentalities involved.

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Funny thing is you can be a mentor from just completing the crafting requirements. Like someone like me who craft/gather every breathing moment in the game but had all classes to Lv50 and 6-7 classes to 60 since HW came out.

I could just apply for Mentorship and can still set my icon to normal Mentor or PVE/Crafting/PVP if I so desire.

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Originally Posted by TaranTatsuuchi

The mentor icon shouldn't be a crown.
It should be a watering can.

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That would be so cute, and probably way less confusing to new players. When I started the game someone had to tell me the leaf on my head does not mean "conjurer" and the chair people are afk and not carpenters (I started in Gridania, it made sense to me that there'd be a lot of those around), so if I saw someone with a crown I'd probably think they are just very good players, not mentors.

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Originally Posted by Velox

Except the current SSS primal or top tier recipes are not beginner content. Mentors are there to help NEWBIES.

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And how a mentor can correctly answer questions to classes and commands, when the mentor didn't understood them their own?

Not everybody, that is able to to it right, is able to explain it. But someone who isn't able to do it right, will for sure not be able to explain it.

Exaqmple: Lets look at a mentor that is dealing around 500 DPS in i240 and a player is asking how to do better in his DPS job. Do you think that mentor will be able to help this player?

And don't forget: ARR ex primals are part of the mentor roulette. So a mentor should be able to explain these too. Synced.

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Originally Posted by KarstenS

And how a mentor can correctly answer questions to classes and commands, when the mentor didn't understood them their own?

Not everybody, that is able to to it right, is able to explain it. But someone who isn't able to do it right, will for sure not be able to explain it.

Exaqmple: Lets look at a mentor that is dealing around 500 DPS in i240 and a player is asking how to do better in his DPS job. Do you think that mentor will be able to help this player?

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And that's not the biggest problem, not only will they not be able to help the player, they will offer extremely bad advice to deal 500 DPS or less with that gear level.

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Originally Posted by Rakiria

and the chair people are afk and not carpenters (I started in Gridania, it made sense to me that there'd be a lot of those around).

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hahahaha. That's hilarious xD

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Originally Posted by KarstenS

And how a mentor can correctly answer questions to classes and commands, when the mentor didn't understood them their own?

Not everybody, that is able to to it right, is able to explain it. But someone who isn't able to do it right, will for sure not be able to explain it.

Exaqmple: Lets look at a mentor that is dealing around 500 DPS in i240 and a player is asking how to do better in his DPS job. Do you think that mentor will be able to help this player?

And don't forget: ARR ex primals are part of the mentor roulette. So a mentor should be able to explain these too. Synced.

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Most newbies lose their sprouts long before hitting 60. The current mentor system is targeted towards helping players that are really new to the game and filling queues for content outside of raids and current ex primals. As has been said before the most common questions by far in the Novice Network are "How to I unlock mounts" and "Where do I go for "quest, feature, ect" not how to play a class optimally. Mentors are required to have a class from all three roles so they can answer general questions about how to do each role and help newbies make groups for early instances.
An extension of the Mentor system such as Job Mentors which have to demonstrate mastery of a job to qualify would be welcome but it's not the focus of the current system.

I do agree that Mentors should have to do ARR ex primals synced to unlock the roulette though.

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Originally Posted by Moomba33

I do agree that Mentors should have to do ARR ex primals synced to unlock the roulette though.

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Why are entirely optional fights such as EX trials part of the mentor system at all? Mentoring players is about helping people to learn the game, their class/job and helping people enjoy the game. That includes assisting players through MSQ related content. EX trials don't - IMHO - belong in Mentor Roulette.

Trying to construct some kind of mentor rating system would immediately be flawed because everyone has their own idea of what mentors should be doing.

When I mentor, I'm quiet unless people explicitly state they are new or need help. This is how I've always played even before the mentor system. If you are new to a run and join and don't say anything, I assume you have watched a video and at least have a cursory knowledge of the content. I never abandon a run even if the players continue to be terrible or don't improve even with advice. I stay till either someone else initiates an abandon vote, the timer runs out, or we pull it off. Mentors can only be as good as the people they're mentoring are. Basic skill and mechanic knowledge is still required.
There's only so many ways I can say "healers stay away from everyone when you have searing wind" and if the healers are still standing with the group during Ifrit EX we're going to continue to wipe. Mentors or no ain't gonna fix that.