Dark knight

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Originally Posted by Jpec07

I'm too proud of this answer to only let it be used once, so here you go:

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Nah man Tempered Will and Dark Mind should be buffed so you aren't affected by mind effecting abilities like Terror and silences because yeah flavortext. Could just buff TW and have it work like PvP's Purifiy but only on the PLD to further add to it's defenses and make use of it's 180 second cooldown.

Fun fact of the day. A Warrior cannot be pacified while under the effect of Berserk. Useful for one Guildhest and maybe PvP.

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Originally Posted by SyzzleSpark

Where do people come up with these suggestions? Not being snarky I'm honestly very truly curious. Like, what is happening to you in your little world on your server playing DRK that you think it needs these things? o.o

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There's been enough threads started about Drk for it to seem obvious that all is not well in the holy lands of Heavensward when it comes to Drk tanking. Each and every patch we've seen has brought changes to the classes. Small tweaks or even big ones. Why do you think that is? We who love Drk tanking and who are not afraid to throw our ideas out there, be they mathematically sound suggestions or massive groundbreaking ones, write from our own personal perspective of how we play our game and bring up suggestions in order to make this beloved class that much better, often without care of the repercussions it would face when compared to other classes. After all, we play the game but we let SE do the designing and number crunching that they are paid to do. We make these suggestions in the hopes that maybe they'll read these heartfelt ideas and say to themselves, "Maybe we CAN make that work." It seems there are always those who say that there is only one correct way to play any class and that cannot be farther from the truth. There are a multitude of ways any class can be played, some admittedly more efficient than others, but all done to ones own playstyle.

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Originally Posted by Drkdays

There's been enough threads started about Drk for it to seem obvious that all is not well in the holy lands of Heavensward when it comes to Drk tanking. Each and every patch we've seen has brought changes to the classes. Small tweaks or even big ones. Why do you think that is? We who love Drk tanking and who are not afraid to throw our ideas out there, be they mathematically sound suggestions or massive groundbreaking ones, write from our own personal perspective of how we play our game and bring up suggestions in order to make this beloved class that much better, often without care of the repercussions it would face when compared to other classes. After all, we play the game but we let SE do the designing and number crunching that they are paid to do. We make these suggestions in the hopes that maybe they'll read these heartfelt ideas and say to themselves, "Maybe we CAN make that work." It seems there are always those who say that there is only one correct way to play any class and that cannot be farther from the truth. There are a multitude of ways any class can be played, some admittedly more efficient than others, but all done to ones own playstyle.

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I'm so glad you ended with the word "playstyle" because it speaks volumes.

Regardless of whether SE considers optimum rotations when designing jobs, there is an optimum way to play them, and many people myself included have tried to point out ways and techniques to make the job live up to its full potential in its current iteration. Playing better will save you time, save people that play with you time, grant increased satisfaction from playing in general, and is just straight up more fun. DRK is an incredibly powerful job when played well. Hell its been world first MT in every raid tier since it was introduced.

My personal opinion is that if you aren't playing the job to its full potential (and many of the suggestions made lately seem to indicate such) in its current iteration, you shouldn't be calling for a new/different one. Some of the ideas put forth have been terrifying, and it personally grills my cheese when someone tries to get SE to redesign a job I can play very well, as in my mind that reads "The job should play like this and all the people that can play it well as-is should have to relearn the job they way I want it." DRK isn't a perfect, flawless job, but most of what it needs are very very small tweaks, and most of them are utility-based or very, very small defensive tweaks. Its DPS is PERFECTLY FINE where it is. DRKs that are trailing behind their WAR buddies by hundreds of DPS are doing something wrong. Assuming you both have full uptime a DRK should only be a very small amount behind WAR or matching the WAR depending on the fight. The gap between WAR and DRK DPS is pretty much slashing-debuff-sized. WAR is also a very popular job and is frequently OTing where DRK is MTing, and is often given preferential treatment in raids, which accounts for bigger differences you may see on FFlogs.

Many of us are arguing against you and other posters because your suggestions completely break DRK (making it use HP instead of MP for a resource) or make it completely destroy the other two tanks (bringing the Sole Survivor buff to PVE or boosting Darkside to 30(!)% increase). We're trying to dissuade people from making suggestions that would only lead to months and months of the other two tanks demanding buffs in return since they'd be left in the proverbial dust, or months and months of "DRK: They Broke My Job" threads a la BRD at 3.0's launch.

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Originally Posted by Mattelot

I see 4% of those people being DRK. Does this help the statement that the difference between the 2 is small?

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DRK doesn't lose anything other than Blood Weapon by going into Grit. You still get to use all of your highest potency attacks, and if you're in Grit its assumed you're tanking something, which means you get Low Blow and Reprisal Procs as well.

Statements like yours irk me because hundreds, maybe thousands of us have done the math ourselves (even if we suck at math, like myself) or checked the math of others out of intellectual curiosity to know things like what you're calling into question and asking us to prove again, just for you, because you decided to remain ignorant.

Honestly with SSS now there's zero excuse for not having mathed out this kinda stuff yourself. You can also take a sample size of a given tank on FFLogs and look at things like the % of DPS added with Low Blow and Reprisal for a given group of DRKs (and Blood Weapon which I believe was mathed out to be a 6% increase not accounting for increased mana/Souleater), the % increase of DPS added with Shield Swipe and SwO (looking at AA damage by a factor of 1/3rd for the PLD during SwO uptime, iirc mathed out to be an 11-13% increase) for PLDs, and the % of DPS added with Fell Cleave for WAR and then add those numbers to the following:

Defiance is .75*1.2= .9
Grit is .8*1.15= .92
ShO is .85*(1+(.3/3=1.1)= .935

Deliverance/Maim is 1.2*1.05=1.26
Blood Weapon/Darkside is 1.15*1.06=1.219
SwO/FoF is 1.1*1.1 is 1.21

WAR - 1.26-.9= .36
DRK - 1.219-.92=.299
PLD - 1.21-.935=.275

These numbers are probably off but their proportions relative to eachother between the tanks are more or less correct.

Now add the % increase of Reprisal and Low Blow procs to the .92 from the DRK equation, the % increase of Shield Swipe procs to the .935 from the PLD equation, and the % increase of Abandon abilities to the 1.26 from the WAR equation and you see that DRK has an extremely small gap between Gritless and Grit, and while PLD's is even smaller, PLD can't match WAR with a slashing debuff, but DRK can in a lot of cases and Reprisal+Low Blow are collectively much more powerful the Shield Swipe. WAR is the largest, but it also has Unchained. You could math this out to a 1.055% overall increase if kept on cooldown but we all know WARs don't just sit in Defiance and Unchained every time on recast so its more difficult to account for.

As I said, I'm not a math wiz or a Dervy or anything but even these rough, napkin math numbers show that DRK's MT DPS is the highest, then WAR's, then PLD's (PLD comes close to WAR if given a slashing debuff). In OT DPS, WAR is top, followed very closely by DRK if given a slashing debuff, then PLD.

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Originally Posted by SyzzleSpark

My personal opinion is that if you aren't playing the job to its full potential (and many of the suggestions made lately seem to indicate such) in its current iteration, you shouldn't be calling for a new/different one. Some of the ideas put forth have been terrifying, and it personally grills my cheese when someone tries to get SE to redesign a job I can play very well, as in my mind that reads "The job should play like this and all the people that can play it well as-is should have to relearn the job they way I want it." DRK isn't a perfect, flawless job, but most of what it needs are very very small tweaks, and most of them are utility-based or very, very small defensive tweaks. Its DPS is PERFECTLY FINE where it is. DRKs that are trailing behind their WAR buddies by hundreds of DPS are doing something wrong. Assuming you both have full uptime a DRK should only be a very small amount behind WAR or matching the WAR depending on the fight. The gap between WAR and DRK DPS is pretty much slashing-debuff-sized. WAR is also a very popular job and is frequently OTing where DRK is MTing, and is often given preferential treatment in raids, which accounts for bigger differences you may see on FFlogs.

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My personal opinion is that you can. You shouldn't have to play the game the way some random person expects you to before you're entitled to your opinion.

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Originally Posted by SyzzleSpark

DRK doesn't lose anything other than Blood Weapon by going into Grit. You still get to use all of your highest potency attacks, and if you're in Grit its assumed you're tanking something, which means you get Low Blow and Reprisal Procs as well.

Statements like yours irk me because hundreds, maybe thousands of us have done the math ourselves (even if we suck at math, like myself) or checked the math of others out of intellectual curiosity to know things like what you're calling into question and asking us to prove again, just for you, because you decided to remain ignorant.

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I have no idea who these hundreds or thousands of people are. I only asked a question. You said that the DPS difference is minimal however, I would expect to see more than a 24:1 ratio on the leaderboards. Nobody is being ignorant. I'm just not naive. If someone states something to be true, I sometimes ask for proof. If you don't want to prove what you say, that's your choice.

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Originally Posted by SyzzleSpark

Honestly with SSS now there's zero excuse for not having mathed out this kinda stuff yourself.

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How do you figure there is "zero excuse?" I've not "mathed it out" myself. Now what?

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Originally Posted by Mattelot

How do you figure there is "zero excuse?" I've not "mathed it out" myself. Now what?

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I dunno, you could try? Instead of demanding for others to spoonfeed you information that you can glean yourself? Ever heard of lmgtfy.com? Same concept.

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Originally Posted by Mattelot

My personal opinion is that you can. You shouldn't have to play the game the way some random person expects you to before you're entitled to your opinion.

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You are always technically entitled to your opinion. But making demands for change when you don't have ground to stand on is something else. And if you're playing poorly, you're just making life harder than it needs to be for yourself and people that play with you, which is infuriating in the face of someone coming to your thread on the forums and saying "hey, if you do this like this, you won't have all the problems that you're citing as reasons for wanting this bombastic change to the job".

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Originally Posted by SyzzleSpark

I dunno, you could try? Instead of demanding for others to spoonfeed you information that you can glean yourself? Ever heard of lmgtfy.com? Same concept.

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So what triggers that? I had a guy ask a question in another thread. I answered him. I know I could have said "go figure it out yourself instead of asking us to spoonfeed you information."

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Originally Posted by Mattelot

So what triggers that? I had a guy ask a question in another thread. I answered him. I know I could have said "go figure it out yourself instead of asking us to spoonfeed you information."

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Asking for information is different from asking for information and then being like "um I don't believe you, prove it". Particularly when its a frequently asked question that has a generally accepted and well documented answer.

Its like if you came in here and asked "Who has the highest average DPS of all the tanks" and someone answered "WAR" and you were like "I don't see evidence of that anywhere, prove it".

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Originally Posted by SyzzleSpark

Asking for information is different from asking for information and then being like "um I don't believe you, prove it". Particularly when its a frequently asked question that has a generally accepted and well documented answer.

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Is there something wrong with asking for proof?

Who generally accepts it? Where is it documented? Who authored this document and when was it's last revision?

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Originally Posted by SyzzleSpark

Its like if you came in here and asked "Who has the highest average DPS of all the tanks" and someone answered "WAR" and you were like "I don't see evidence of that anywhere, prove it".

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What's wrong with that?

Also, you didn't answer my question. What triggers doing it yourself?

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Originally Posted by Mattelot

Is there something wrong with asking for proof?

Who generally accepts it? Where is it documented?Who authored this document and when was it's last revision?

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I find asking for proof of readily available information obnoxious, antagonistic, and entitled. All you have to do is work with the numbers the game gives you, and numbers you can find on fflogs.

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Originally Posted by Mattelot

What's wrong with that?

Also, you didn't answer my question. What triggers doing it yourself?

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Only a select few people are mathematically proficient enough to provide you with a 100% accurate answer, and a smaller percentage of those people have time to stop and type it all out. Conversely you can try and do your own math, and then ask others to check it. I.E. the math in my previous post is likely mostly accurate but admittedly does not take everything into account, but it is there for others to see and check and I ceded that it was probably off by some margin, and that it was "napkin" math. I don't want to spend hours of my day trying to find the thread that documented how much of a % increase Blood Weapon or Sword Oath is just because you demand it, so I'm quoting numbers from memory which, even if slightly off, still illustrate the point, which is that DRK's DPS is good and doesn't need the fix that this post suggests.

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Originally Posted by SyzzleSpark

Asking for information is different from asking for information and then being like "um I don't believe you, prove it". Particularly when its a frequently asked question that has a generally accepted and well documented answer.

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Im with Syzzle on this. You dont just ask someone for readily available information and then demand proof when you can type in a url quickly and find the proof right there yourself.

And I also agree that if you aren't playing a class to anywhere near its full potential you shouldn't be able to ask for these huge changes just to allow you to be lazy and still do fine with the class.

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Originally Posted by Mattelot

I see 4% of those people being DRK. Does this help the statement that the difference between the 2 is small?

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http://www.fflogs.com/statistics/10/#class=Tanks - here, I clicked two things for you and got here, maybe this will illustrate it better.

These numbers are skewed by the fact that DRK is MTing most of the time and WAR is OTing most of the time, meaning the DRK has to use Grit a bit more depending on the fight. If they were both just full DPS mode the numbers would be even closer.

Or here, there's this: ffxiv.2digitalgames.de

DRK is expected to do 972.44 DPS to clear Nidhogg Ex dummy.
WAR is expected to do 1044.44 DPS to clear Nidhoog Ex dummy.

DRK doesn't have its own slashing debuff. 3 of DRK's regular skills used in its DPS rotation do not apply slashing damage - Low Blow, Dark Passenger, and Salted Earth. Collectively these account for roughly 10% of DRK's total DPS. You can find this information on the site Violette linked if you look hard enough.

Anyway, long story short, remove this 10% (97.24) from that 972.44 and you get 875.20. Multiply that by 1.1 from the slashing debuff and you get 962.72. Add back the 97.24 we removed because it wouldn't benefit from the 1.1 slashing debuff and you get 1059.96.

The numbers are rough but they illustrate the point and that is that if you give DRK a slashing debuff they basically have the potential to match WAR DPS. When the gap is that small that a simple resistance debuff will make up the difference, you don't need a passive 30% boost all the time.

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Originally Posted by SyzzleSpark

I find asking for proof of readily available information obnoxious, antagonistic, and entitled. All you have to do is work with the numbers the game gives you, and numbers you can find on fflogs.

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So if I go into my game, there will be all the information you stated? That readily available? Or are you saying there are steps you need to take to find the "readily available" information? You believe that someone asking for proof of someone else's claims to be obnoxious. That's your problem. You find it to be antagonistic? How is wanting to know if you're being given good information hostile? You find it to be entitled. You can choose not to answer. It's about not being naive.

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Originally Posted by SyzzleSpark

Only a select few people are mathematically proficient enough to provide you with a 100% accurate answer, and a smaller percentage of those people have time to stop and type it all out. Conversely you can try and do your own math, and then ask others to check it. I.E. the math in my previous post is likely mostly accurate but admittedly does not take everything into account, but it is there for others to see and check and I ceded that it was probably off by some margin, and that it was "napkin" math. I don't want to spend hours of my day trying to find the thread that documented how much of a % increase Blood Weapon or Sword Oath is just because you demand it, so I'm quoting numbers from memory which, even if slightly off, still illustrate the point, which is that DRK's DPS is good and doesn't need the fix that this post suggests.

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Can you please provide me with a link to the post where information was demanded? I would greatly appreciate it.

Also, you have still not answered many of my questions. What triggers doing it yourself? Who generally accepts the information. Where is it documented? Who authored this document and when was it's last revision?

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Originally Posted by Mattelot

snip

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You have tooltips in the game. Those tooltips have numbers. With numbers math can happen. See the post I have above yours. I'm done now, its clear that you're just being difficult. The information is out there and I've actually given you a great deal of information myself, so I'm gonna leave it at that.

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Originally Posted by SyzzleSpark

[S]
http://www.fflogs.com/statistics/10/#class=Tanks - here, I clicked two things for you and got here, maybe this will illustrate it better. *snip*

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Thank you for this. What I'm curious is that on paper, I will agree that it looks like they're close however, there is still the 24:1 ratio on the leaderboards.

If you feel that a 30% boost is too much, do you feel there is no need for change?

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Originally Posted by SyzzleSpark

You have tooltips in the game. Those tooltips have numbers. With numbers math can happen. See the post I have above yours. I'm done now, its clear that you're just being difficult. The information is out there and I've actually given you a great deal of information myself, so I'm gonna leave it at that.

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Tooltips are not good indicators all the time. I learned this very quick when I started playing.

You've still not answered the same questions I've asked over and over.

I'm not being difficult. I'm just not naive. I don't take what random people say as gospel, especially if I want to know WHY something works. You can tell me that a pufferfish can paralyze you. I can remember that but I would rather know how it paralyzes you. If I ask my teacher, they explain. They wouldn't tell me "go do the research yourself, google is available to everyone." They're the one who wants to get the point across.

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Originally Posted by Mattelot

Tooltips are not good indicators all the time. I learned this very quick when I started playing.

You've still not answered the same questions I've asked over and over.

I'm not being difficult. I'm just not naive. I don't take what random people say as gospel, especially if I want to know WHY something works. You can tell me that a pufferfish can paralyze you. I can remember that but I would rather know how it paralyzes you. If I ask my teacher, they explain. They wouldn't tell me "go do the research yourself, google is available to everyone." They're the one who wants to get the point across.

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ffxiv.2digitalgames.de

Like I said, DRK is not perfect, it could use a couple of minor tweaks here and there, but the community consensus is that there is zero wrong with its DPS potential.

If it had +30% damage all the time it would approach lower-end DPS numbers, then we'd be back at square one pre-3.2.

Where something is and where it can potentially be do not always equate.

This is the second game forum I've been on in the past week where somebody said that the consensus says something. The last forum, an actual poll was taken only to find out that the "consensus" was only a little over 30% while the opposition was over 50% with the remaining undecided.

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Originally Posted by Mattelot

Where something is and where it can potentially be do not always equate.

This is the second game forum I've been on in the past week where somebody said that the consensus says something. The last forum, an actual poll was taken only to find out that the "consensus" was only a little over 30% while the opposition was over 50% with the remaining undecided.

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ffxiv.2digitalgames.de stop ignoring this site. This site is cold hard numbers the game expects each job to do in a vacuum. A DRK with a slashing debuff can deal comparable DPS to a WAR. I don't see what further discussion is warranted.

I just don't understand why someone comes to the forums for information if they're just going to require everyone there to go fetch information elsewhere for them before they'll be satisfied. If the information we have in our heads isn't good enough and you just want us to link you stuff, why not just eliminate the middle man and google it yourself instead of impetuously calling into question everyone's credibility?

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Originally Posted by SyzzleSpark

ffxiv.2digitalgames.de stop ignoring this site. This site is cold hard numbers the game expects each job to do in a vacuum. A DRK with a slashing debuff can deal comparable DPS to a WAR. I don't see what further discussion is warranted.

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I wasn't ignoring it. I wasn't sure if you were making a comment or...

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Originally Posted by SyzzleSpark

I just don't understand why someone comes to the forums for information if they're just going to require everyone there to go fetch information elsewhere for them before they'll be satisfied. If the information we have in our heads isn't good enough and you just want us to link you stuff, why not just eliminate the middle man and google it yourself instead of impetuously calling into question everyone's credibility?

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Nobody is requiring anything, just asking. Again, you have the choice to reply. You make it sound like it's such an inconvenience as if it takes up a lot of your time however, you spent the time evading many questions by explaining why you feel you shouldn't have to answer them.

Geez, Mattelot. Syzzle may have spent some time explaining why she shouldn't have to answer your question... but she also answered your question. Seriously, just go look at the site she's been repeatedly linking.

Since you've yet to take the time to copy paste it into your address bar, it is a "DPS Calculator" that utilizes the Stone, Sky, Sea content in order to give classes the DPS expected to defeat a given dummy as well as the DPS they've done when they fail.

As this is a "document" that solely utilizes information obtainable through the game we can say that the author is Square Enix, the information is documented at that site, and the last revision is the end of the latest maintenance. The maintainer of the site itself is appearing to be anonymous but the source of the information is sound enough for that to be of minor importance. Here's a few more details as to the information it provides.

Dummy HP: This information is pulled from the game itself by reading its memory. Since this act is against the Terms of Service, I cannot tell you how this can be done and I shouldn't tell you who is credited for pulling the numbers.

DPS: It's a rather simple calculation. Damage Done/Time Spent = DPS. If a computer gets division wrong then we have bigger things to worry about than "where's the proof". For the record, I am a programmer by trade and can confirm that the code for these calculations is sound.

There is no guesswork in the site. It is just cold, hard, factual data. If we cannot trust a site like that then why are we even doing any math at all?

A few things:

1. If you buff Darkside anymore than 15% your better say goodbye to all the raiding PLDs. They already have to more than prove their worth in our tank dps focused meta. DRK would become the undisputed MT (kinda how WARs are auto slotted to OT) bc even if you are trash at stance dancing you can pump out more dps.

2. In terms of DPS - OT: WAR>DRK>PLD Stance dancing MT: WAR=DRK>PLD Turtle MT: DRK>>PLD=WAR There is some debate about the exact numbers of this hierarchy(mostly the equal ones), but for the most part ppl are in agreement. Anyone who want to test this common knowledge is more than capable of seeking out the research. Its disrespectful to the time and effort that ppl have invested in developing these forums into a valuable resource to willfully disregard this information for your own expediency.

3. DRK has less representation in high end content for two reasons, its hard to play and its newer. DRK can mitigate like a PLD and dps like a WAR in the MT slot, but only if you are VERY good at it. The skill cap for that kind of play is higher - as it should be. Your getting the best of both worlds. So one should not be surprised to see it less represented.

Same here, siding with syzzle. I'm all for ideas and such but well thought out ones by people who have taken the class to the limit and know the numbers. DRK doesn't need a dps boost is needs some utility. It gives the party nothing really in an OT role. What would be good for it? I dont know, I'll leave that to the number crunchers to suggest

Donjo, (s)he posted a link to a calculator. I asked more than just 1 question. None were actually answered. I asked what triggers people to do that. I asked other questions too and repeated them. That person evaded and proceeded to mildly insult.

Did SE actually author that site? If I make a website and quote parts of the game, does that mean SE is the author. If I say I'm the best player in the game and I disagree, does that override what you say?

I just realized the math in my post at the top of page 6 is wrong since it doesn't take into account Scourge's DoT.

In reality its more like 80-85% of DRK's DPS that benefits from the slashing debuff, rather than 90%.

However, even then:

WAR - 1044.44 DPS to clear NEX dummy.
DRK - 972.44 DPS to clear NEX dummy.

972.44*1.08 = 1050.23

Even if you got more conservative and said only 75% of DRK's damage benefits from slashing:

972.44*1.075 = 1045.373

TLDR - A DRK with a slashing debuff for all intents and purposes = WAR in DPS. That means the gap between them without that debuff is < 10% I.E very small.

Hell, even Yoshi P. said this was the case in a past live letter. Everyone laughed at him then because we were all scrubs that couldn't play the job worth a damn but now we're eating our words.

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Originally Posted by Mattelot

Donjo, (s)he posted a link to a calculator. I asked more than just 1 question. None were actually answered. I asked what triggers people to do that. I asked other questions too and repeated them. That person evaded and proceeded to mildly insult.

Did SE actually author that site? If I make a website and quote parts of the game, does that mean SE is the author. If I say I'm the best player in the game and I disagree, does that override what you say?

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You specifically asked her for proof that Dark Knights and Warriors had similar DPS ceilings. She gave you this answer and then you argued about sources and other things while she explained that if you're going to question things so much than you should just go find the already documented information. When you refused to do this she gave you some already documented information which you're still attempting to debunk on completely unfounded grounds.

Here it is in the simplest possible terms. Square Enix wrote and programmed the game. If someone takes a bunch of data from Square Enix's game and places it on a website without adding any additional information of their own... then Square Enix is the author of all of the information contained on the site, not the person who put it there. If you make a site that contains a combination of quoted bits from the game and your own input, then your input is yours and the quotes are Square Enix's.

Following that, it's your turn. If you wish to carry on with the notion that WAR and DRK do not have similar DPS ceilings, then the burden of proof is now on you. Prove that the information you have been given is incorrect enough to discredit the conclusion that the two jobs can deal similar damage. Make sure to include proper citations.

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Originally Posted by SyzzleSpark

TLDR - A DRK with a slashing debuff for all intents and purposes = WAR in DPS. That means the gap between them without that debuff is < 10% I.E very small.

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To be fair, this math is under the assumption that SSS is based on equal skill among the three tanks. If DRK is in fact equal, or near equal, to WAR in OT dps there should be evidence of it in places like FFlogs. However, when I look at it I notice WAR on average out dps' DRK when they are OT. The only time I see DRK getting very close is when they are MT - Quickthinks Allthought for example. Which would support the old mantra of OT: WAR>DRK>PLD MT: DRK=WAR>PLD

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Originally Posted by Chronons

To be fair, this math is under the assumption that SSS is based on equal skill among the three tanks. If DRK is in fact equal, or near equal, to WAR in OT dps there should be evidence of it in places like FFlogs. However, when I look at it I notice WAR on average out dps' DRK when they are OT. The only time I see DRK getting very close is when they are MT - Quickthinks Allthought for example. Which would support the old mantra of OT: WAR>DRK>PLD MT: DRK=WAR>PLD

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FFLogs is not as reliable because due to the immense popularity of WAR they are often given preferential treatment as far as making room for their DPS. They are also more frequently OTing while DRKs are more frequently MTing, which usually entails at least some Grit usage, which explains the numbers on FFLogs. Those numbers can be skewed/inflated/doctored but the SSS site cannot.

FFLogs is almost never a reliable source by itself, for that reason.

Oh, I agree that number inflating on FFlogs is a thing. Which is why I would only consider the average as an indicator. Also, i'm looking specifically at whether the DRK/WAR is OT or MT before making a judgement call.

As an aside we could look at PLD do see if SSS is indicative of equal skill. NEX dummy is 936 for them, do all PLD skills get buffed by slashing? If so PLD is 1029.6 and that seems way off.

Donjo, the burden is far from my shoulders. I'm still waiting for my questions to be answered which no, they were not. You're looking at a small portion of the conversation and cherry picking what you believe is an answer. I'm sorry that I'm not going to take a ransoms word for it.

Did you know that 75% of Drks believe they're not powerful enough, including the top Drks? Google.com and you can figure it out yourself, I won't spoon feed you. Not all of us are naive. I believe change should be made. If you don't agree, your opinion doesn't matter because you don't play by my standards. See where I'm going with this?

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Originally Posted by Mattelot

Donjo, the burden is far from my shoulders. I'm still waiting for my questions to be answered which no, they were not. You're looking at a small portion of the conversation and cherry picking what you believe is an answer. I'm sorry that I'm not going to take a ransoms word for it.

Did you know that 75% of Drks believe they're not powerful enough, including the top Drks? Google.com and you can figure it out yourself, I won't spoon feed you. Not all of us are naive. I believe change should be made. If you don't agree, your opinion doesn't matter because you don't play by my standards. See where I'm going with this?

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Aww, look at that. You're evading the question! Weren't you complaining about people doing that earlier? How adorable.

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Originally Posted by Donjo

Aww, look at that. You're evading the question! Weren't you complaining about people doing that earlier? How adorable.

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To be fair, you didn't even tell him what format he should use for his citations.

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Originally Posted by SyzzleSpark

FFLogs is not as reliable because due to the immense popularity of WAR they are often given preferential treatment as far as making room for their DPS. They are also more frequently OTing while DRKs are more frequently MTing, which usually entails at least some Grit usage, which explains the numbers on FFLogs. Those numbers can be skewed/inflated/doctored but the SSS site cannot.

FFLogs is almost never a reliable source by itself, for that reason.

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After giving it more thought it could also be that WARs dps is designed around crit damage. I don't know if SSS is designed with much crit luck calculated in or if it scales differently per tank. Increased crits could explain why on paper DRK and WAR line up closely on dps, but WAR pulls ahead in practice(potency calcs don't consider crits). Not that i'm trying to be antagonistic or anything. I just dont know if SSS is enough to overturn the results of the rest of our data - ie. things like fflogs and parsing data. Especially when we have little information on how "equal" they are between classes.

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Originally Posted by Chronons

After giving it more thought it could also be that WARs dps is designed around crit damage. I don't know if SSS is designed with much crit luck calculated in or if it scales differently per tank. Increased crits could explain why on paper DRK and WAR line up closely on dps, but WAR pulls ahead in practice(potency calcs don't consider crits). Not that i'm trying to be antagonistic or anything. I just dont know if SSS is enough to overturn the results of the rest of our data - ie. things like fflogs and parsing data. Especially when we have little information on how "equal" they are between classes.

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Not claiming anything to be fact or anything with what I'm about to say, but you also have to account for the fact that DRK and PLD hit their target a LOT more than WAR does, in general (more oGCDs, more DoTs, more AAs, all of which can crit). The more hits the higher the likelihood you'll see crits just by virtue of their being more rolls for it through more instances of damage dealt. If WAR pulled ahead by crits alone its DPS advantages probably wouldn't be considered as valid as they are.

Its extremely common for high end groups, after they've cleared content, to go back in and try and see what the most insane numbers they can parse are on a given class. There's an A8S clear of a PLD doing over 2000 DPS. You think they got that DPS just by playing normally and getting the same equal treatment as everyone else? Lol no. So the data on FFLogs does have a lot of fudge in it.

The 3 minutes of hitting the SSS dummy I consider more reliable because there is no way you can fudge the numbers at a given gear level. Not to mention at the current tier all tanks share gear. You're working exclusively with what the job itself is bringing to the table with no outside help (no Balances, extra TAs or Hypercharges, etc.)

Anyhoo, the point of my posts wasn't to devalue WAR's DPS, it was to show that DRK's DPS is behind WAR's by an overall inconsequential amount, at least in the presence of a slashing debuff (these are Yoshi P's words as well, keep in mind). In fact back in the days of STR tanking a DRK MTing out of stance could actually pull ahead of their OT WAR on certain fights. All of this is just to say DRK doesn't need any kind of DPS buff like the OP is suggesting.

As far as SSS being equal between classes, all the dummies have a set HP value based on the job they're designed for, so that a DRK dealing 972.44 DPS will be able to kill its dummy with slightly less HP in the same 3 minutes that the WAR would be able to kill its dummy with slightly more HP if maintaining 1044.44 DPS. That's really the only difference is the HP values, which you have to have.

For instance if all the dummies had 291680 HP (the value required of MNK on Nidhogg Ex) then no job other than MNK would be able to clear that dummy at a reasonable gear level. All of this is to say that the dummies have varying HP but as far as we know there are no other differences between them based on job.

I completely agree DRK doesn't need a buff to Darkside like the OP suggested. I hope I didn't come off as though I did? That would make PLDs life even worse and make DRK super cheese mode to play. It would be like a 100% uptime unchained. Just ew.

I only meant to question the notion that DRK=WAR in dps while OT (assuming slash debuff). There are a lot of variables in SSS that we just aren't privy to. We assume that equal skill is required of each class, but there is no way to actually know this. It could be that DRKs SSS dummy is harder for them to beat than the same one for a WAR.

Which is why I look to things like FFlogs or parsing data on the internet to see if they support or deny what the SSS dummies seem to indicate. Unfortunately they do not. I understand FFlogs has ppl that will push the limits of whats possible through trickery, but to dismiss all of it bc there are some outliers is unfair I think. Its a valuable resource in seeing how the math works out in practice.

For example on your server (Diablos) WARs out dps DRKs by an average of 150-200dps on. If I plotted all the values on a distribution scale none of them would stick out to me as outliers worthy of corrupting the data. If DRK can match WAR in OT dps how is this the case? I dont think Grit is the culprit as most DRKs are dropping it after one PS combo and being in the MT slot should push their dps higher than what they can do as OT (assuming they aren't turtled in Grit). They are all bringing a slashing debuff. On even the smallest servers greater WAR dps is a trend. I doubt very seriously that players on the smallest servers are pushing to inflate numbers like some of the big ones. So i'm left with two options: Either the all the data from FFlogs is invalid, or SSS may not be 100% indicative of what is possible regarding tank dps.

I tend to lean towards the latter.

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Originally Posted by Chronons

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Yes, I think a DRK with a slashing debuff can match, or come very close to, a WAR in DPS. I can't account for how people play or cater to their roles on FFLogs though. I would be very upset with myself if my WAR bested me be a whopping 200 DPS, I'd need to check my job stone to make sure I hadn't accidentally clicked on my PLD gearset. I'd only expect this on a first clear of a fight with me MTing the entire time and no swaps.

What I can tell you, is that WAR is easier to play than DRK, easier to maximize, more favored in a raid setting, and also has almost double the parses on FFLogs. So no, I don't trust FFLogs to be 100% accurate and I think SSS paints a more objective picture. A lot of Alex has been very burst oriented, with few long sustained dummy fights like T8. WAR is extremely bursty, DRK is very sustained. For example MCH outdpses DRG and NIN on current content. That's an example of a raid tier bending over and taking it in the no-no place from a job by design and mechanics, not the jobs actual DPS potential relative to other jobs. If a DRG or NIN got outdpsed by a MCH in a fair dummy fight with no mechanics (dummys speak volumes about the job but not about the skill of the player - job is what we're discussing here, not so much skill), they'd have to be very undergeared or bad.

Think about it. I don't know if you raid or you don't, but in a raid, outside of the necessities of raiding with a static (handling mechanics, supporting team mates, etc. ) you are trying your hardest to maintain essentially the same rotation as you would on a dummy, during sustained phases anyway. Anything that pulls you off of that is a fuck-up on someone's part or a mechanic. So a dummy shows what you would do under perfect circumstances. Are you saying that the SSS dummy for WAR is easier for a WAR to clear than a DRK's SS dummy is for a DRK of equal gear? One requires less skill? Just because you assume in the opposite direction of me doesn't make one assumption less valid. But as your assumption assumes something that frankly doesn't make a whole lot of sense (some jobs arbitrarily have SSS dummies that will tolerate an inefficient or less-skilled rotation at a given gear level), I'm gonna respectfully disagree.

What's the primary culprit of bad DPS on good players in raids? I'm not sure, but I'm going to guess that uptime is in the top 5. The idea that DRK does so much less DPS than WAR, aside from generating threads like this, also leads to people sending their DRK to do mechanics before sending their WAR. Also DRK MTs aren't just sitting out of Grit 100% of the time in the current raid tier. Are they jumping out of it at every opportunity? You bet, but Midas hits a lot harder than Gordias did and no DRK is doing what you described without heavy catering-to. I don't think its incorrect that as far as tank DPS is concerned people will make concessions for their WAR that they won't make for their DRK. If given an equal catering-to, yeah, I think a DRK in DPS stance with a slashing debuff will match a WAR. But people will seek to maximize a WAR's DPS before a DRK's, that's just the meta.

I mean think about it. You don't find it strange that there are more parses for WAR (7662) in NA servers on FFLogs for Midas Savage than for any other job in the game (next closest being SCH at 7234)? That means WAR is incredibly popular and DRK with less parses than any other jobs other than SMN, BRD, and AST, you really think FFLogs paints an accurate, full, objective portrait that can be trusted over a dummy parse that may or may not arbitrarily require more skill between jobs? o.o

Not sure what it's worth exactly, but if you go to the link Violette gave on page 4 and you check the two drks who made it on there, their dps was higher than that of the war's in their parties.

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Originally Posted by HoodRat

Not sure what it's worth exactly, but if you go to the link Violette gave on page 4 and you check the two drks who made it on there, their dps was higher than that of the war's in their parties.

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Yeah. Generally when you cater to one job it hurts another. On an SSS dummy nobody is catering to you. I'm honestly not sure why people are so suspicious of them. I think some people have this idea that they're trying to measure skill, but they're not, they're measuring your DPS. General skill as a player encompasses more than that.

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Originally Posted by Mattelot

Did you know that 75% of Drks believe they're not powerful enough, including the top Drks?

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Did you know that 87.5% of statistics can be made up on the spot.

Your point?

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Originally Posted by Razard

Did you know that 87.5% of statistics can be made up on the spot.

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Actually, it's 88%.

Cite your sources next time. :^)

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Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

Actually, it's 88%.

Cite your sources next time. :^)

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Oh sorry. I always forget. Thanks for the correction ^^