Crafting needs to be fun or needs to be automated.

There should be a standard, objective definition for "fun" and "immersion" in this place.

Not it's just a buzzword used to justify opinion X. "It's not fun (to me), fix it!"

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Originally Posted by Betelgeuzah

There should be a standard, objective definition for "fun" and "immersion" in this place.

Not it's just a buzzword used to justify opinion X. "It's not fun (to me), fix it!"

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Crafting in XIV isn't fun or immersive by any definition.

fun: something that provides mirth or amusement: A picnic would be fun.

immersion: state of being deeply engaged or involved; absorption.

Are you amused or absorbed by pressing a single button thousands of times while sitting in the same spot? If you're watching Netflix while crafting you're definitely not immersed. You may be amused, but probably not by the game.

Come to my server. I'll fund you to level a craft to 50. You can do whatever you want in-game, but you can't watch movies or do anything that would otherwise distract you from the fun and immersive activity of crafting.

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Originally Posted by Denmo

@Topic
Did you read the interviews? There's a detail in there that Yoshi would like 2 modes of synthing: one for standard, and one for more in depth. The standard one would be instantaneous, you may not even kneel for it, and there'd be a small chance of HQ. The second one would probably be the same as it is now, using abilities and choosing the best course of action to attempt to create an HQ, or succeed in what would otherwise be a difficult synth.

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I linked that before, but let me just explicitly plug it in:

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Sonomaa (BG): What are you planning on doing about the monotonous crafting mechanics? People literally sit and press enter for hours on end. Why was this specific crafting style chosen over something simplistic and automatic ala World of Warcraft? I hate to keep going back to World of Warcraft, but they're winning.

Square-Enix: It's a matter of priority so far. For the past 10 months, we prioritized all of the things we thought we needed to get fixed first. On the top of that list: UI, Battle System. Also, Content, where the content was based on Guildleves. So, over the past 10 months, it has been fixing the things that needed fixes and adding more content. With the Crafting System, again, we prioritized what needed to be fixed first. The first thing that needed to be fixed was that the Recipe System was way too complex - way too many ingredients, way too many steps to get to your final product. Something that was way too difficult for the novice player to get into. You would have to be hardcore if you wanted to make something. So getting those things fixed first was our priority.

[Yoshida speaks more]

And he's going on more; it's the amount of materials you needed. It wasn't just pressing Enter, it was having to get ALL of these materials before pressing Enter. And so the next step, which we hope to do really soon, is now shorten the number of steps to actually do the crafting. Instead of, you know, sitting down, doing the thing, standing up, getting your stuff, etc. Consolidate all of it and cut down on the steps is the next step being taken.

And one of the things we're planning is two different crafting systems. One that's very simplified and that you're going just for the item you need without having to worry about High Quality, with a small chance of High Quality. Then there's the other system, where it will take more time and effort, but the chance of getting that High Quality item will become higher. So the people who want to spend more time and do it carefully will have the higher chance of a High Quality, and then the people who want to get it done, they have the consolidated system.
BG: Will you be abolishing breaks? Like FFXI had breaks, where you could lose everything and it was heartbreaking.

SE: Yes, we've already begun discussing removing that loss probability. If it's below, at, or just a bit above your crafting level, then the loss probability would be removed. But if it's something far above your crafting level - if you succeed, then you get the experience bonus, but if it is far above your level, having those item lost are a good way...

BG: Agreed. Good.

SE: That's the standard, and we hope to get to that. That's what we're thinking.

BG: I just hated making arrows with my Ranger in FFXI that were 30 points below and blowing up the whole thing. Why am I blowing up my arrows?

SE: [Discussion and laughs among the SE staff] We'll take that into consideration.

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From source.

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Originally Posted by Razzle

Cooking - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7I651...feature=relmfu

Botanist - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLaEU6MPE8E

( + w +

But wait, that'd actually be... FUN. Oh well we can only dream~

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While I would love some actual gameplay to be had when playing a game let's be real here for a second.

We all know how this is going to go: SE is going to select the cheapest most easy way there is and cut everything out before making systems that would introduce new (or any) kind of gameplay into this process. They already hinted at "one button press crafting" ages ago when the new team was just starting out.


EDIT: Also in that above interview statement the short version of it is basically: "We're aware of the suck-y-ness and we're doing everything we can to sweep these broken systems under the rug instead of making something better! "

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Originally Posted by Seif

Also in that above interview statement the short version of it is basically: "We're aware of the suck-y-ness and we're doing everything we can to sweep these broken systems under the rug instead of making something better! "

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Really? Did you miss this?

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It's a matter of priority so far. For the past 10 months, we prioritized all of the things we thought we needed to get fixed first

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I'd like interactive and engaging rather than automated. If things become automated, (if that means what I think it does..) I can't see crafting being fun at all. o.o; I can't see myself saying "I really enjoy crafting!" Seems like there wouldn't really be anything to do.
I would enjoy a quick but interactive mini-game type of thing for each synth. No longer than crafting usually takes, but something interesting. If things become automated I can see a lot of crafters (like myself) who enjoy crafting getting bored.

Currently it's not very fun or interesting to most, but at LEAST there is something to do.
I'd be upset if you just pressed 2 buttons and your item popped into existence. XD That would be pretty boring.

Edit: Unless... To level up you had to actually make things the interactive way, but then later, when you had the levels to make things you could choose to make them automatically then.
So you still work for your levels, but can have fun with a mini-game doing so, and could craft things to sell quickly.

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Originally Posted by Blarp

fun: something that provides mirth or amusement: A picnic would be fun.

immersion: state of being deeply engaged or involved; absorption.

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You still aren't defining anything. What is this "something" that provides amusement, and how do you generalize it to apply across different subjective opinions? Picnics sound like a bore to me, therefore it isn't fun, plus the definition of picnic differs as well. Are you alone, with your grandma, with your girlfriend? You can't take an activity like that and state that it would be objectively fun, therefore this is merely an opinion and not something that can be used as a justification for anything more than a single opinion would.

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Are you amused or absorbed by pressing a single button thousands of times while sitting in the same spot? If you're watching Netflix while crafting you're definitely not immersed. You may be amused, but probably not by the game.

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Am I amused by researching the current marketspace, trying to find recipes and venues to make profit either through buying mats or producing them myself? Am I amused by trying to produce a HQ to make me profit out of the synth instead of just breaking even? Am I amused by seeing my wealth grow little by little as I play with the economy, synth carefully instead of just buying masses of mats and turning on my bot while I watch TV? Am I amused seeing my effectiveness and success rates go up once I upgraded my equipment? Am I amused making deals with other crafters and gatherers to obtain mats cheaper than anywhere else, or getting contracts to create gear/attach materia for a certain price? Am I amused seeing my plans work in action, seeing the gil I've obtained by selling the stuff on my retainer over night that I produced the day before?

Yes, that can be incredibly amusing and absorbing. Maybe if you are a millionaire power leveling through the craft, sitting in the same spot producing the same item over and over again because money is no concern to you and neither is breaking even or profiting at that stage, I can see why somebody wouldn't find that amusing.

Maybe even what I said wouldn't be fun to someone else. Either way, you can not go out and say "it's not fun, therefore change it" as anything more than a single opinion among other opinions. You also can not generalize an activity by turning it into single button presses to make a point, as fun can (and in the case of crafting in games, always is) be more about the actual process of pressing a button. Ignoring all the aspects at play is ignoring what can make the feature fun to someone else.

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Come to my server. I'll fund you to level a craft to 50. You can do whatever you want in-game, but you can't watch movies or do anything that would otherwise distract you from the fun and immersive activity of crafting.

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That's not what makes crafting immersive for me. Somebody else does the actual immersive and fun part for me? Starting from scratch, reading the economy, making most out of every synth to get by and (eventually) make a living of it. Slowly obtaining more wealth through better gear and see how it affects my effectiveness. Instead of just dumbing it down into pressing a button because nothing else really matters as you are funded by someone else.

If you actually cared about profit you wouldn't have missed the glass era. But because you did you don't care what has to be done to get any tiny amount of profits you can at the detriment of the game for everyone else because exclusivity is a good thing. There's also that little detail that anything you can do at low levels you can do better higher. Your bitterness is showing every time you bash someone because they might have money meanwhile don't even gather yourself.

I suggested a system a long time ago that would fix the sitution completely.

Have your character pick a "job" for when you are logged off, say Carpenter. During this time they would gain Exp and eventually Level up and maybe even some money or basic mats. When you come back on you can use the skills learned(IE level up) in that job to make useful items.

By doing this you can seperate the Grind from Item Creation and open up the opprtunity to remake the crafting system in an engading way.

Benefits

-Grind still exist and would take a standardize amount of time that rewards longterm players but is completely painless

-Can Change online crafting experience to one where the player spends a LONG time on a CHALLENGING and ENGADING crafting system to make ONE item.

-Give the player a reason to put down the game and tend to real life without feeling like they are not progressing in game

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Originally Posted by Celtodeno

I suggested a system a long time ago that would fix the sitution completely.

Have your character pick a "job" for when you are logged off. During this time they would gain Exp and maybe even some money or basic mats. When you come back on you can use the skills learned in that job to make useful items.

Benefits

_grind

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Offline leveling is a horrid idea that might look good at first due to saving operations costs but in the end may prove to be more detrimental when those offline players cancel their subs out of lack of interest and/or deciding to play another game that actually makes them log in to advance.

do some leves. 10k-12k sp for 2 leves 40+... thats like, 10 synths. less then 100 synths for a level., less then 1000 clicks of your keyboard. to get through some of the highest lvls...

but w/e i dont really care. i have a 1 year wait for anything thats going to bring me emotion/motivation. changing the crafting system really isn't going to make or break anything for me right now.

tl;dr leve allowance owns, use it.

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Originally Posted by ellohwell

Crafting was good at release (ui lag aside) because it was actual gameplay. You had to network to acquire mats for the grind and you had to play the market wards in order to sell shit or use YG to make gil to buy mats, and there just seemed like there was more to it. It was still a painful grind, but the process seemed more involved.

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Not sure if serious.

I, personally, think all this mini game talk, and make crafting fun talk is a bunch of crap. I an almost everyon I know does not play MMOs to have a good time leveling a craft. Sure one you have the class maxed, making HQ items can be fun. But lets face it, the tedious task of getting there is a pain. Forget those stupid motavational posters in the business place that say its the journey, and all that crap, they have never leveled a FFXIV DoH, the journey generally sucks.

Lets face it, its a long tedious task, that no mini game will ever make truelly enjoyable. And your going to do it solo. Which is another down side. An MMO, which by definition, is about grouping and interacting with other players, seems a little bass ackwards, to have 7 classes of DoH in which interacting with other players offers almost no benefit. One can get all the items they need from either being a DoL themselves, or simply heading to the wards to purchase a stack of the next item needed to make a million more of the same item, all alone, in a corner somewhere.

The only way I see to truely make crafting better or even remotely fun, will be to significantly raise the XP gain per synth or leve.

*playing Devil's advocate here*

The case could be made that crafting is not engaging... but it's rewarding....
Being a 50 crafter is very beneficial.
It's like getting to 99 in an offline FF title... Tell me you didn't get tired of the Zombies of "overlooking Eternity" in FFXII
Raising a Golden Chocobo - I loved Chocobo racing but by my 1,000,000th race I was sick of it
Blitz ball in FFX to get Wakka's best stuff - Anyone who got every thing was sick of it by the end....
But we did these things that got monotonous and old because we deemed the reward worthwhile....
No matter what the crafting minigame is... after 10,000 synths it will not be fun.. I PROMISE you
And automated synths will make being a 50 crafter less rewarding.... trust me

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Originally Posted by Celtodeno

By doing this you can seperate the Grind from Item Creation and open up the opprtunity to remake the crafting system in an engading way.

Benefits

-Grind still exist and would take a standardize amount of time that rewards longterm players but is completely painless

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No pain, No gain

There is a lot of entitlement here, and most of you seem to forget that what is fun for you might not be for someone else and vice versa. If you dont like crafting you dont have to do it, there are obviously plenty who do and you can buy or ask them for things. If you hate crafting why do you feel like you deserve to have a high lvl craft job? There are just as many players who enjoy crafting that arent on the forums most of the time.

FFXIV has one of the worst crafting systems I've seen thus far in any MMO and I've been playing them since the beginning. There is a reason why botting is so out of hand when it comes to crafting on this game.

When SE finally gives crafting their full attention hopefully its well done, leveling is streamlined while making HQ crafting an entire different ballgame that isn't luck based but more of a system where you need to know your shit to pull it off on a consistent basis.

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Originally Posted by Coglin

I, personally, think all this mini game talk, and make crafting fun talk is a bunch of crap. I an almost everyon I know does not play MMOs to have a good time leveling a craft. Sure one you have the class maxed, making HQ items can be fun. But lets face it, the tedious task of getting there is a pain. Forget those stupid motavational posters in the business place that say its the journey, and all that crap, they have never leveled a FFXIV DoH, the journey generally sucks.

Lets face it, its a long tedious task, that no mini game will ever make truelly enjoyable. And your going to do it solo. Which is another down side. An MMO, which by definition, is about grouping and interacting with other players, seems a little bass ackwards, to have 7 classes of DoH in which interacting with other players offers almost no benefit. One can get all the items they need from either being a DoL themselves, or simply heading to the wards to purchase a stack of the next item needed to make a million more of the same item, all alone, in a corner somewhere.

The only way I see to truely make crafting better or even remotely fun, will be to significantly raise the XP gain per synth or leve.

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your thinking is too based on what you have seen before. Any process can be made more entertaining, crafting is essentially on paper the same as battle. The only difference is the execution. The minigame of battle people in general find entertaining enough to do it for hours at a time, for multiple jobs.

Im not saying they will actually make a more interactive mini game for crafting, but it is very possible. I could already imagine a number of ways to go about it. Also keep in mind there are many simple games that people play for longer than people do crafting in ffxiv.

They could also make crafting have grouping options, but i dont think they want to put that much time into it, fact is its not a crafting game completely.

They could however, make it more role playing like and have various quests that give exp to level, with milestones and "crafting battles" For example one quest asks you to make X amount of items in X time frame. Or a battle with a rival crafter where they add up your quality scores. The focus in crafting is the very simple quantity one, you produce mass quanties of crafts for exp, they could make it a more adventure oreinted path, more about exploration, and the quality or skills in crafting. The leve system is ok, but speed, quality, difficulty, exploration, story. have very little to do with your the whole leveling curve

I really understand the points made by those who love the crafting system. but isnt the ultimate point of a craft to power you up so you can go out and level up and see the story on your main "attack" class.

Currently with the game I feel like I spent 80% of my time crafting and searching for materials to make myself stronger and only 20% of my time actually doing any battling which is the highlight of why 95% of us pick up a game in the first place...

and with the invention of the materia system I feel like I have devoted my ffxiv career to levelling up EVERY craft just so I can attach materia to my gear with out having to go off and shout for someone else to do it (and hope they dont just walk off with my stuff when I do trade it to them...)

Why not use a crafting system similar to eve? Bring your junk to the moogle who's in your house (hint, add player housing) and let him craft things for you.

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Originally Posted by Winterclaw

Why not use a crafting system similar to eve? Bring your junk to the moogle who's in your house (hint, add player housing) and let him craft things for you.

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That's a fine system, but when the game already has crafting classes that people have already leveled, taking them out entirely would be a huge slap to the face.

If I could like the OP ten times over, I would. At least something as simple as bulk crafting would be nice. (We got 1x and 3x recipes in 1.19, how about expanding on this to make it so for low level crafts we can just one click to convert 95~100% of the raw materials into intermediate materials.) I fish and do alchemy to make crystals/shards for my other crafts. When I come home to Uldah in the evening with an inventory full of a hundred tiger cods... do I really need to execute the minigame 100+ times for no EXP just to make all my shards? ; ;

i agree with the OP, we need a reply from devs.

I don't want it to turn out to be a stressing mini-game. I still want to relax while synth.

I did some tests and grinding seems faster than leves, especially if you factor in travel time to turn them in.

I came up with an idea that would allow Companion Moogles to help in crafting and auto-crafting. Check it out.

Problem is nothing is gonna be fun for very long.. they change the mini game then we get bored 1 month after its released.

So crafting should be auto.

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Originally Posted by DNO

Problem is nothing is gonna be fun for very long.. they change the mini game then we get bored 1 month after its released.

So crafting should be auto.

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Not if it's actually thought out and skill plays a part in the outcome.

Like level 1-10 for blacksmithing the mini-game could be hammering metal. Then 10-15 they add in another step like cooling it down, 15-20 add another step onto it. Leveling up would add more steps to the mini-game giving you more control over how well the item turns out as well as keeping it fresh.

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Originally Posted by DNO

Problem is nothing is gonna be fun for very long.. they change the mini game then we get bored 1 month after its released.

So crafting should be auto.

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I don't hear anyone making this argument about combat, not sure why it would have to be true of synthesis. There is nothing inherent about crafting that will make it boring regardless of system.

Crafting gear could be more meaningful by boosting parts of the mini-game like giving more time to complete it or something.

Please change crafting. There's no reason to make it this monotenous.

I have never been more disengaged from a game then when I'm crafting in FFXIV. On a positive note, I do get to watch movies and TV shows that I haven't seen before, but I don't think that's the point of FFXIV's crafting system.

It needs a complete overhaul. No option 1 for NQ, option 2 for HQ. This model doesn't work. Only a complete overhaul will suffice.

Yeah, pretty much