Suggestion for Novice Network system - Too many whining sprouts

@Eidolon I won't reply to your post until you answer the question you have been dodging about trial accounts, and until you edit out the load of personal attacks towards me.

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

If you are in the novice network, press the novice search button and you will see sprouts all over eorzea, the system is simply unsustainable if you have to scout every single map looking for sprouts to ask them in /say chat, for saying 50-60 sprouts per day.

The thing is

1) nobody is holding you at gunpoint to make sure you meet some quota of 50-60 sprouts per day
2) I really don't think you're MEANT to be /searching all over the world constantly everyday for sprouts to invite. More like, you see a sprout in the process of your everyday adventuring, you /wave a greeting at them or something, then ask them if they wanna join. Sure, you will not come across every sprout this way, but you're not meant to. You are not the only mentor in the game.

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1) No one is saying there's a quota to be met, you're missing my point, the network exists for the sole purpose of helping new players, if these players are not part of the network then the network is not doing the job it's meant to do. Do you know what complaints I've seen far more often than people asking to leave? A mix of people asking why they were invited so late, of how it would have been far more helpful if they were invited during their first levels, how trial players say they game feels dead because they rarely see people out in the world and other people don't reply to /say chat.

2) Let me ask you the opposite question, why do you think we are not MEANT to search for people? When the system was added in 3.2 it worked the way you think it should work, but in patch 3.25 they added a button specifically to filter out all sprouts all over the world. And before we go back to square one, I'm gonna re-state that I don't think that button was added to mass-send tells because SE is well aware of the trial account restrictions, and the number of sprouts who are trial accounts.

http://i.imgur.com/PjCfAPT.png

Before that button was added my server's NN would average around 20 sprouts at peak hour, after the button it went over to 130-150 sprouts at peak hour.

So I ask you, does the risk of 2-3 people feeling (rightfully) inconvenienced outweigh the potential to reach out and help twenty times that amount of people? It's unfortunate that you don't see it, but the NN isn't fulfilling the purpose it was created for if 80% of its target audience is excluded just to protect the feelings of the few people who make alts and don't want to use a command created specifically to deal with that.

"Hello and welcome to Final Fantasy XIV! As part of an ongoing campaign to encourage interaction between new and experienced players alike, a Mentor & Novice system has been put in place whereby players can commune together in a chatroom known as the 'Novice Network', centred around the idea of assisting players through all walks of the game. There you can ask questions, give feedback or hear impressions from those whom are very familiar with the game as well as meet fellow new players with whom you may choose to play! Please note that Free Trial accounts are unable to respond to Tells(such as this), so if you find that you are interested in joining the Novice Network, simply right-click my name and select "Invite to Party" to show your interest!"


A macro like that should work fine? Minding that you'd need to add an explanation for console invites too.

You don't need a special crown or unique privileges in a linkshell to go around helping players, I certainly don't, but I would expect that the people who go as far as to signing themselves up to becoming a Mentor to actually be the type of people willing to go just a little bit further to ensure that they are doing what are in the new players'(and the game's) best interests. Irritating people with blind invites or pressuring shy/reclusive players into feeling obliged to stay is not a very kind nor considerate thing to be doing and if anything else seems too troublesome for your tastes then I would question if Mentoring is for you.

All of the above was a general statement to no-one in particular, however. In the case of the OP, I am aware that your intentions were in the right place, but you should also recognise that your actions are not regarded as something positive by everyone, so this is something worth considering in the future.

I agree that a macro would be useful for those who are inclined to take that extra step, though at this point with the Gil sellers I rarely even bother reading anything longer than a few linesof a strangers tell. But I've been playing a while and I'm pretty jaded about macro tells... it's just that currently such extra effort doesn't accur to most people when the system itself doesn't suggest it being needed.

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Originally Posted by Knahli

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There's another barrier :( trial accounts can't invite people to party, they can only be invited.

I use these macros instead https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...e_game/d2x5798 briefly explaining what is the network and letting them know how to disable it or leave it if they do not wish to participate.

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I'll take my chances.

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Most rude/lazy people do :)

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NN isn't fulfilling the purpose it was created for if 80% of its target audience is excluded just to protect the feelings of the few people who make alts and don't want to use a command created specifically to deal with that.

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Or you could just like, message them instead of blind inviting. But nope, according to you that would apparently make the NN break down and cease to perform its function.

Being polite is hard, folks. It's like the NEW new endgame.

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Irritating people with blind invites or pressuring shy/reclusive players into feeling obliged to stay is not a very kind nor considerate thing to be doing and if anything else seems too troublesome for your tastes then I would question if Mentoring is for you.

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Oh yay, someone gets it.

I have no problem with people mass inviting new players to the network. The problem is there is no ability to decline that invite when sent. For people like myself who only have the sprout icon because it is an alt rather than being a new player to the game...merely adding an accept/decline option would be good enough and simple enough to do I think but if want to go the extra mile you could also pop up a 'help' window explaining what the network is and how it works alongside that accept/decline option.

To all those inviting people to the network: Is it really so hard to ask someone before sending an invite? It takes 2 seconds and will save you all exactly this kind of problem. You only have yourselves to blame if you keep inviting people without talking to them first.

To all those complaining about being invited to the network: You can easily remove the new adventurer status in the options which will remove you from the network. There is no benefit to being a new adventurer other than a sprout icon and the network, so any arguments that you don't want to lose your 'status' are meaningless.

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There is no benefit to being a new adventurer other than a sprout icon and the network,

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Well, there is an EXP bonus applied if there's a sprout and the mentor in the same party if they're below level 20... that's a bit of a minor thing, but it IS a benefit.

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

Or you could just like, message them instead of blind inviting. But nope, according to you that would apparently make the NN break down and cease to perform its function.

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Honestly I feel like you're intentionally ignoring parts of my posts and cherry picking what to reply to. I knew you would use that comeback, I preemptively wrote

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And before we go back to square one, I'm gonna re-state that I don't think that button was added to mass-send tells because SE is well aware of the trial account restrictions, and the number of sprouts who are trial accounts.

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And you still decided to ignore the fact that trial accounts can't reply to messages.

I feel like you're not looking to have a meaningful debate, you just want to play the devil's advocate for no reason and I'm not gonna get into an endless argument. So I'm gonna extend the challenge I gave to the other guy in post #28, if you decide to do it please let us know how it goes, if you don't feel like helping people then don't come here trying to judge those who do try to help.

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And you still decided to ignore the fact that trial accounts can't reply to messages.

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Again, no, they can't reply using *tells*. Try something other than a tell.

Oh, but wait, you don't want to use something other than tells, because then you can't use your magic "/search all sprouts" button and then mass blind invite all the sprouts that aren't in your immediate vicinity, right?

To which I say, good. You shouldn't be doing that in the first place.

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I feel like you're not looking to have a meaningful debate, you just want to play the devil's advocate for no reason and I'm not gonna get into an endless argument.

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I'm not actually here to "debate" anything. I'm here to let you people know that blind invites can be considered rude in general, and one of the reason we have "whiner" sprouts (which, in case you've forgotten, is what this topic is all about) is because some people send these out willy nilly, like I said, absolutely convinced they are doing the best thing possible for the NN and adamantly refusing to accept that they could be doing anything wrong.

If you guys don't want to adjust your behavior, whatever. But you may want to look again at why this thread was made in the first place.

I'm not going to have anything to do with your "challenge" because like I said, being a mentor does not mean having to meet some quota system where you have to make sure you tag everyone online at any given time. If you think that's what it's all about, you are misunderstanding the purpose of the mentor system in the first place.

The "whining sprouts" are still vastly out-numbered by the amount of mentors foisting their unsolicited "advice" (that is often wrong anyway) on anyone and everyone

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

Again, no, they can't reply using *tells*. Try something other than a tell.

Oh, but wait, you don't want to use something other than tells, because then you can't use your magic "/search all sprouts" button and then mass blind invite all the sprouts that aren't in your immediate vicinity, right?

To which I say, good. You shouldn't be doing that in the first place.

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Your idea has been tried and it failed, considering the fact that before this patch the channel had about 20-30 sprouts on a good day. You know why? Because max level players don't tend to spend their play time roaming low level areas. A help channel without people to receive the help is useless.

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

Well, there is an EXP bonus applied if there's a sprout and the mentor in the same party if they're below level 20... that's a bit of a minor thing, but it IS a benefit.

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So get their mentor friend to power level them to 20? It'd take all of twenty minutes, if even that. Especially with a not-so-minor xp boost. 20% is huge for a combat xp boost. You only get 3% from food. 20% from the invite-a-friend thing (up to level 25). 20% from the mog hat (up to level 10). 50% from rested xp. And this is combat xp only--none of these bonuses apply to quest or dungeon xp, so mass killing mobs is the best use of them.

If they don't have a mentor friend, why wouldn't they join the network unless they simply don't care about the xp bonus. At which point why keep the sprout?
And after level 20? What benefit is there?
Why wear a "I'm new, please help" sign when you don't want help?

Honestly, with all this debate about the pros and cons about blind invites to the Novice Network, wouldn't it make more sense for SE to insert a low-level Quest that spells out what the Novice Network is all about, and offers a nice "Would you like to join the Novice Network? YES/NO" dialog box?

Perhaps SE was concerned that this would open the door to allow bots and RMT to flood the Novice Network... But, honestly, they don't seem to be having a lot of trouble getting in as it is...

Perhaps as an alternative, rather than that Dialog box actually placing them in the network, selecting "YES" will enable the "Invite to Novice Network" menu option. If they select "NO", that option will not be in the list. In that way, Mentors always know that the person they invite is actually interested in joining - because if they weren't interested, they wouldn't be able to invite them in the first place.

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Originally Posted by alimdia

There's another barrier :( trial accounts can't invite people to party, they can only be invited.

I use these macros instead https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...e_game/d2x5798 briefly explaining what is the network and letting them know how to disable it or leave it if they do not wish to participate.

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Well that's unfortunate then ; I suppose the only other way is to invite them to your own party and indicate that they should accept if they wish to join the NN(or don't but simply have a question or two anyways). Granted, that's not ideal either for either party in this case, but at least it feels less imposing. I know it may sound silly to some, but it's apparent that more than a handful of people feel uncomfortable with just being pulled into a big linkshell all of a sudden.

As for the person mentioning macro tells, I see where you are coming from but if they are new players then they might be a lot more willing to read whatever comes flying their way ^^

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

Honestly, with all this debate about the pros and cons about blind invites to the Novice Network, wouldn't it make more sense for SE to insert a low-level Quest that spells out what the Novice Network is all about, and offers a nice "Would you like to join the Novice Network? YES/NO" dialog box?

Perhaps SE was concerned that this would open the door to allow bots and RMT to flood the Novice Network... But, honestly, they don't seem to be having a lot of trouble getting in as it is...

Perhaps as an alternative, rather than that Dialog box actually placing them in the network, selecting "YES" will enable the "Invite to Novice Network" menu option. If they select "NO", that option will not be in the list. In that way, Mentors always know that the person they invite is actually interested in joining - because if they weren't interested, they wouldn't be able to invite them in the first place.

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I don't think anyone is arguing against the benefits of such a thing, but rather suggesting ways that you can make do without it in the meantime in order to both sound as inviting as possible, but while also not forcing the idea on new players who still might be a little disorientated in their new game.


On another note, if someone invites a player to the NN and they leave soon after, is there anything stopping another mentor from obliviously re-inviting them?

The point of being a mentor is to talk to sprouts.... address the issue, end the issue, done and done!

Maybe ppl find this to hard to do, why not ask a sprout if they would like to join it, before inviting them to a system that forces them in? Its kinda like those rude FC invites where no one talks to you first but keeps inviting you. Whats so hard about communicating with someone before you invite them?

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Originally Posted by birdy_reene

Whats so hard about communicating with someone before you invite them?

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Actually, SE has restrictions in place that DOES add quite a bit of difficulty in communicating with someone before you invite them. Trial accounts are very limited in the kinds of communication they can participate in - essentially, they're limited to using /say to communicate. So, let's say that you're a Mentor, and you've come across a Sprout. You check, and they haven't been invited to NN yet, and you don't want to be a pain and invite someone who doesn't want in. So, you communicate! How does that go?

Mentor: /s Hey, there! I see that you're not in the Novus Network, a place where veteran players chat with new players to help them learn to play the game! Would you like to join?
(Sprout is silent)
Mentor: /s Ah, perhaps you don't know how to chat! You should be set to chat in /say by default, but just in case you're not, type /say followed by what you want to say!
(Sprout is silent)
Mentor: /s Perhaps you don't have a keyboard? If you click on your chat window, you can bring up an in-game keyboard you can type on...
(Sprout is silent)
Mentor: /s Maybe you don't speak English? (Can you understand English?) Wait, that doesn't translate to Spanish... I don't know any Spanish...
(Sprout is silent)
Mentor: /s I dunno, jump up and down if you want to join?
(Sprout doesn't jump)
Mentor: /s Well, I tried, I guess...

Obviously, this is a worst-case scenario, with an absurdly patient and persistent Mentor, but there can be many reasons why a sprout does not respond. It also can't be argued that a player who can't type or understand English wouldn't be interested in joining; Novice Network DOES have multiple language representation (even if, on my server at least, it's primarily English), and players who can't type can still learn much by listening to the chat. For a Mentor that is honestly concerned about getting newbies in, "Just talk to them" isn't that simple.

It's not a surprise, then, that a lot of mentors simply choose to invite, leaving the sprout to decide whether they want to stay or not (and, thankfully, sprouts now have that choice). Or, alternatively, Mentors who don't want to be disrespectful but also don't want to invest in a potential wasted conversation (and remember, both the Mentor and Sprout have to stay in the same place, since /say might be the only possible form of conversation) wind up simply inviting a whole lot less sprouts.

Again, though, folks aren't wrong in saying unsolicited NN invites are like blind-inviting someone to a FC. The system SHOULD be changed, and hopefully will. In the meantime, both viewpoints have their plusses and minuses.

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

I'm not going to have anything to do with your "challenge" because like I said, being a mentor does not mean having to meet some quota system where you have to make sure you tag everyone online at any given time. If you think that's what it's all about, you are misunderstanding the purpose of the mentor system in the first place.

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So you're okay with 80% of the novices not receiving any help? I will repeat what others have said with the hopes that maybe it will get through this time: If they aren't getting invited to the NN, the NN isn't serving its purpose. What you're suggesting is to drastically decrease the amount of people you can reach.

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Your idea has been tried and it failed, considering the fact that before this patch the channel had about 20-30 sprouts on a good day. You know why? Because max level players don't tend to spend their play time roaming low level areas. A help channel without people to receive the help is useless.

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I've been at max for a while and I still regularly have to go back to "old" areas for GC turn ins, hunts, FATE grinding beast tribe dailies, etc.

If you aren't running into sprouts, you simply aren't trying.

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Perhaps SE was concerned that this would open the door to allow bots and RMT to flood the Novice Network... But, honestly, they don't seem to be having a lot of trouble getting in as it is...

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Gee, you think maybe that's because of the people who throw out invites willy-nilly without looking at who they're inviting or without even asking? Nah, that's probably just coincidence

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Mentor: /s Hey, there! I see that you're not in the Novus Network, a place where veteran players chat with new players to help them learn to play the game! Would you like to join?
(Sprout is silent)
Mentor: /s Ah, perhaps you don't know how to chat! You should be set to chat in /say by default, but just in case you're not, type /say followed by what you want to say!
(Sprout is silent)
Mentor: /s Perhaps you don't have a keyboard? If you click on your chat window, you can bring up an in-game keyboard you can type on...
(Sprout is silent)
Mentor: /s Maybe you don't speak English? (Can you understand English?) Wait, that doesn't translate to Spanish... I don't know any Spanish...
(Sprout is silent)
Mentor: /s I dunno, jump up and down if you want to join?
(Sprout doesn't jump)
Mentor: /s Well, I tried, I guess...

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This is basically how most communication in the game goes, I've found.

This still does not mean, however, that people should just be blind inviting everyone instead. Absence of a no does not mean a yes.

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Perhaps as an alternative, rather than that Dialog box actually placing them in the network, selecting "YES" will enable the "Invite to Novice Network" menu option. If they select "NO", that option will not be in the list. In that way, Mentors always know that the person they invite is actually interested in joining - because if they weren't interested, they wouldn't be able to invite them in the first place.

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That's a decent idea. As it stands, I don't feel like the game really does a good enough job of informing new players that a Novice Network actually even exists as a whole separate chat channel, solely due to its invite-only system.