What is so bad about FFXI?

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Originally Posted by ellohwell

So I'm sorry if it deviated too far from your safety zone but artists need to keep things fresh.

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Artists also improve over time, even if they keep the same technique, they don't degrade.

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Originally Posted by ellohwell

[...] it also cannot keep making steps backward to FFXI, and that's generally what people like myself are afraid of. FFXIV has made some strides and progress in the industry (and many of those are due to deviating from FFXI) and I don't want to see FFXIV moonwalk back to the dinosaur era, erasing all the "progress" they've already made.

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What is this? I hope you're not implying that simply because it's old it's invalid.

And what steps "forward" did XIV make from XI? What has XIV done that has invalidated the features and gameplay XI had that has let it live for so long?

And why are they more valid? Because you like them more? Because they make the game easier in places you prefer?

There are few things that can be objectively defined as far as games go. Preference is not one of them.

XI is fine, but i dont want to play XI here, i left xi because i was bored with that style. This game should find its own direction and strengths, like ever other FF title did, aside from the -2s

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Originally Posted by Gramul

What is this? I hope you're not implying that simply because it's old it's invalid.

And what steps "forward" did XIV make from XI? What has XIV done that has invalidated the features and gameplay XI had that has let it live for so long?

And why are they more valid? Because you like them more? Because they make the game easier in places you prefer?

There are few things that can be objectively defined as far as games go. Preference is not one of them.

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It's not invalid because it's old. It's invalid because it's an entirely different game and therefore many of the principles cannot be converted over to a new game without it conflicting terribly with the pre-existing systems (which we are now seeing happening). Some can be brought over, sure, but many would destroy FFXIV as we know it (which Im sure you'd love, but I sure wouldn't).

I'd welcome better search function and so on, but there are a lot of things from FFXI which were awful and could have been improved upon. And SE did improve upon them when they made FFXIV. For example, in FFXI, crafting was inaccessible, practically. You really had to be committed and rich to be able to do it. In FFXIV they really tried to bring life to this aspect of gameplay, even giving it its own minigame. (Sure they dumbed it down after patch 1.19 and it's not even really gameplay anymore, it's just something you download a bot for, but there was a point where it actually was gameplay).

My point is, this is an improvement upon FFXI.

Another improvement upon FFXI is how I no longer just wait around for TP to build up. In FFXI, that's what they called a "combat system". Believe it or not.

In FFXI chocobos were on a timer and the developers hated fun. Everything was a punishment. (inb4 fatigue)

I realise FFXIV isn't perfect, but FFXI was far from it too. So that's why I would suggest leaving FFXI out of it completely, and just trying to argue for individual features on their own merits rather than make blanket assumptions about FFXI being perfect and therefore every single thing about the game needs to have a FFXIV equivalent, even if it ends up destroying FFXIV.

I could go on but you're a lost cause Gramul, tbh.

You shouldn't have bought a game you hated (FFXIV). You should have stuck with games like FFXI and Everquest. God knows there are lots of them to choose from.

I mean, I try and I try to save FFXIV but the Jennestias and the Gramuls of this world seem always to come in here and try to destroy FFXIV just so they can relive their FFXI glory days.

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Originally Posted by ellohwell

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You aren't listening to what's being said, no one expecting the game to take a trip into the Jurassic era, whatever you meant by that. Gaming elements from the NES era is actually behind the core concept of both FFXI and FFXIV. We are saying rather than cloning a something that worked exceptionally well in FFXI, look at it, take it into consideration, if it's a go then adapt and build on it and then implement it.

This doesn't mean that the devs can't be creative, bring in own ideas and elements is also very important. But if they can't come up with a better new system, continue to improve and innovate an already existing concept.

If something can still bring the joy now as it did back then, then why not do it. There's a saying, if it ain't broken don't fix it. Why we look into FFXI as a reference point has already been said, same company, same gaming series and same line of MMOs. You might be worried that this game takes steps into what you didn't like about FFXI, and you are more than entitled to that because it's reasonable. However you are not alone, we are all concerned about the game taking direction that we don't like.

I guess another thing is:

FFXIV could look back to games like WoW or FFXI or it could look to the future and be inventive. Being reflective on the past is good, and like Jennestia says, learning from the past is also good, but being stuck in the past isn't!

I don't mean to play the Guild Wars 2 card, or the ArcheAge card, but there are certain MMOs on the horizon which are being inventive and breaking new ground in the industry.

Looking back to FFXI will not allow the devs to look forward and be creative with content, which the developers of ArcheAge and GW2 clearly were. There are features in both those games which are pretty unprecedented in MMOs.

So looking back to FFXI and fixating exclusively on that can be dangerous for the future of FFXIV if it puts blinders on the dev's creativity.

Fortunately by the looks of some of the stuff coming with 2.0 (like PvP siege and the group summon abilities), it looks like they still have some inventiveness left in them after all. But I guess that's my point. A lot of the stuff coming with 2.0 aren't features from FFXI, and FFXIV is none the poorer for that.

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Originally Posted by Suirieko

This. There is no reason to use the GOOD ideas that came from FFXI and improve it in FFXIV.

Key examples of what is good in FFXI:

*Assaults
*Party Search Feature (which is finally coming)
*Campaign/Beseiged
*Endgames that required specific strategy, such as salvage, minus the crappy drop rate.
*Innovative NM fights. (Ifrit is by far a great example of this)
*Bazaar including bazaar message.
*ARena style fights, such as BCNM, KSNM and so on.

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Whoa! Let's not get totally out of control here!

CoP era FFXI was my favourite MMO of all time (until ToAU came along and killed it), but at no point did FFXI have good endgame. Ifrit in FFXIV is a more complex and involving fight than just about anything in FFXI, yet bosses on his level and above have existed in WoW pretty much since its launch.

Also, FFXI had a lot of gimmicky content encapsuled into their own "systems", like Salvage, Assault, Fields of Valor, Einherjar, etc, etc. To me they felt disconnected from what I considered to be the main game and those ideas could have been implemented a lot more seamlessly.

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Originally Posted by ellohwell

In FFXI chocobos were on a timer and the developers hated fun. Everything was a punishment. (inb4 fatigue)

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I beg your pardon madam, but I believe you're full of it.

Developers hated fun? Really? I had no idea the hours and hours of fun I had playing FFXI where all imaginary.

Considering the developer and their history with MMO's, there are certain things many of us have come to expect, nice things, things we like. Things like progression based gameplay, strategy over skill, multiplayer focus in a multiplayer game, fantastic areas abundant and varied, a game where you can't see almost everything from the start.

People have different tastes. What you think are improvements other people could easily consider them to be a step back. All I'm asking of you is to consider the idea that people hold different views not out of ignorance, but out of preference.

"Forward thinking" implies you're moving in a direction that leads to a goal. For video games, that goal is simply to entertain. Considering the fact that people can still be entertained by even something as archaic as NES games, I'd say the goal has been reached.
Any direction that still entertains is a fine direction. If anything, we're looking to test our boundaries, and if that means we can take somethings people have liked, and still do, then why not? It won't hold us back, if anything it will help us explore how far we can go. It can give us a strong and stable foundation to build our tower to the heavens.

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/6...gain_super.jpg

Get off XI's nuts, seriously. The same design decisions that worked nearly a decade ago are not going to hold up in this day and age, especially when considering the competition and 14's terribad launch.

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Originally Posted by Tezz_Xivectro

Standing around or AFK in almost everything you do.

That's what's wrong with FF11. Shouldn't a game be fun. At least to the point where you're actually playing the game. Not wanting to leech & afk (not just talking about leveling either).

Back when FF11 first started the older mentality was nothing like this. We're in a day & age where we need time sinks without them seeming like time sinks.
SE has to find a way to psychologically mind-fuck people into doing long content.
It needs to be something we actually feel like doing & progression is clear/"fun". Not a dull chore.

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When I read posts like this I can't help but think they're leaning clear into the "hyperbolic" end of things.

For one, your last paragraph sorta comes across as you saying "people have to be told what to do and tricked into having fun, 'cause they can't figure it how on their own.". It's a terribly cynical perspective... but not necessarily one without merit. However, I also don't think that entirely lays at SE's feet.

As for your description of FFXI... It certainly doesn't sound like the FFXI I played. For at least 90% of the time I played FFXI (from US PC launch up to just before Abyssea with a few breaks along the way), I had a ball. Only thing that ever got to me was some of the people I encountered.

I never stood around doing nothing unless that's exactly what I wanted to do. If I wanted to get an xp party and invites weren't coming as quickly, I'd try to assemble a party instead.

If it wasn't xp parties, I'd be doing something else.. like crafting, or putting together Assault groups, or working on lower level jobs.. or working on missions/quests I wanted to get done. There was always something to do in FFXI. You almost never had to stand around doing nothing... unless you chose to.

Notice how in the majority of complaints you hear about parties in XI, it entails the person complaining "standing around waiting for a party"? Their problem is contained right in their own complaint, and the solution was right in their own grasp.

The people I knew who tended to wait for others to invite them did tend to stand around waiting a lot. And oh how they complained, blaming SE, blaming the game, blaming their job.. blaming everyone and everything but themselves.

Meanwhile, those who chose to take the initiative and form parties were out xp'ing.

The problem largely lay in people wanting everything to come to them without effort or initiative on their part (as is the case with a lot of gamers these days, is it not?).

I had a good friend in FFXI who leveled not one, but two characters from scratch, getting all jobs - including the unpopular ones - from 1 to 75 in less time than many others would require. Why? She took initiative. She didn't stand around waiting for the invites to come to her... She sent the invites out herself. And before someone says "well she was a girl so it would be easier for her".. most people didn't know she was a female until after they were grouped with her.. if they ever found out at all. She didn't use her gender to get an easier ride.

She put as many hours into the game as many others did. The difference is, while others stood around complaining about "no invites", she was putting groups together.

I remember a discussion in LS one night where people were bitching about how long it took to get parties and were surprised at how she was always in a party, or going after a HNM, and generally always making progress. Her answer pissed half the LS off (those complaining) but it was absolutely true: "I make all this progress because I don't stand around with my thumb up my ass waiting for others to come to me so I can play the game".

Of course people in the LS argued with her left and right that she was wrong, that it had nothing to do with standing around, etc. But at the end of the day... the proof is in the pudding. She was assertive, took the initiative and didn't wait to be called on. If she wanted something, she grabbed the proverbial bull by the horns and made it happen. That was the only difference between her and the people sitting around in Jeuno "for hours" with their seek flags up.

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Originally Posted by Xatsh

Do we want FFXIV to become XI-2, the answer is yes to a degree.

A XI clone is guaranteed will fail, just like a WoW clone is guaranteed to fail.

We need defining concepts from XI, the story arches, the intertwining quest and missions, and the basic elements to a final fantasy game. We need to draw on what XI did to keep 95% of its playerbase active for over 7yrs, something no other mmo has ever done. We need to draw on the long term goals which keep players playing for a very long time, we need to let people build their characters over years not update to update. We need to large scale content. We need stuff that hardcore simply cannot breeze through in a week/month/year.

We also need defining concepts from WoW(mainstream). The userfriendly interface, The auction house system which is superior to XI, Content for solo players, tiered battles so the hardcore can be challenged and the (I would say casual but even they can do hard stuff) less talented do not get pushed away from the game. PvP since it is a staple of mmos despite whether people like or hate it, and the guild management systems in place.

Outside those concepts, everything must be original or the mmo will never take off. In the end no one will pay for a mmo when they can have the same experience elsewhere except the older mmo has 20 fold the content. We need something that has never been done, A game that is fun for Casual mainstream players, and no-life hardcore players. A game where there is endless content, a game that is unlike any other mmo out there in the end.

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I completely agree with this. We need the XI feel like the artistic direction (which XIV is sorely lacking, though 2.0 looks promising), more fantasy and less boring realism. You can have realistically visioned fantasy which is more along the lines of how XI was. Still maintaining the realistic models, yet high fantasy areas such as floating islands. We do not need the time grind of waiting to get a party for hours, waiting on 3 hour HNM windows, and time-sinky ridiculousness. UI elements from actual MMOs that know what they're doing in regards to the PC is a plus. The same type of content is also a plus from other popular MMOs, just with enough of a unique twist where it does not feel like you're doing a carbon copy of another MMO with different skins. Instances/raids would be better if they were more like how XI was in terms of actually feeling like you're part of something instead of just mindlessly AoEing crap down to get to the boss, or completely skipping everything but the boss. Hallways like WoW would be the wrong direction. Boss encounters like WoW would be the right direction, however. More bosses, less trash.

I think XIV could be awesome if it successfully mixed the popular elements of most MMOs with XI, though it could also be done horrible if it's half-assed. I enjoyed pre-ToAU XI, but ToAU largely destroyed the game for me since I played mages. Segregating the playerbase like that was not a good idea, and I hope XIV doesn't make that same mistake.

FFXI was my first serious mmo, as such it holds a special place in my heart. I think "we don't want it like ffxi" or "we dont want ffxi-2" comes from some of the aspects that really should have been redone in it's infancy. Like the party feature, a ton of job adjustments and mechanics, content like worldspawn HNMs, storylines battles, crafting, gathering, rmt actions that should have never been, instances, inventory.. these are just a few of an ever growing list of problems that afflicted xi and scarred both long term players and short term. In my opinion it's not saying change or do not implement what has made xi great, but please do not implement the things that caused a lot of frustrations/ragequits/and for some..tears.

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Originally Posted by Quesse

I don't want to keep playing the same game over and over.

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Same here. We aren't talking about a photocopy of XI though. Trust me, if the first thing I had to do in XIV was collect 10 rabbit skins from the bunnies in West Ronfaure, I would have been pretty pissed. That's not to say they can't include other factors from XI into XIV. Heck, we already have identical looking/named weapons, mobs, ingredients etc...

Meat Mithkabob.. Meat Miqobob.. really??

The main draw XI still holds over XIV for me is the job system. The usage of Job/Sub is so far superior to the "use whatever skills from whatever class you want" system that XIV has implemented.
Other than that I've very pleased with XIV and just wish they would have had more direction in the main storyline, and how you explore and develop it. I find myself getting excited to do the main scenario quests, only to be let down by the quests being a mere "walk here, listen to cut scene, get xp"

Nothing is more natural than to compare FFXIV to FFXI. I expected things that worked in FFXI to be carried over into FFXIV, and if not, then I certainly hoped the innovations would be for the better.

Seek/Search

FFXI had group formation tools that worked, but could have been better. A party recruitment feature is a nice innovation compared to FFXI, but it fails on its own. Better to seek endlessly in FFXI than to use the FFXIV tool and wonder "is this thing on?" It boggles my mind that an MMO is released without a useful means of getting in parties. A year later and my mind is still BOGGLED!

Still, I didn't expect a system identical to FFXI, I expected something better. Seek and recruit on any/multiple jobs for different types of content. An auto-grouper like the proposed Content Finder would be a welcome tool in addition to more interactive group formation tools.

Guild Leves (Battle)

A variation on the leveling mechanic compared to FFXI. I like leves for solo/duo play, but they are a disappointment for party play. Groups of monsters instead of always a solo monster and the lack of fighting over monsters in popular camps are good innovations. But it seems to me that an MMO should be focused foremost on party play and I miss the party focused leveling of FFXI.

Battle Regimes

Compare to skillchains from FFXI. A greater variety of actions building toward a greater variety of effects. I like the innovation but the requirement of entering a Battle Regime Mode took away from the flow of combat. High marks for an attempt to promote teamwork though. I would say a good innovation over FFXI in principle, but needs better implementation.

Market Wards

Quaint, but inconvenient. Convenience wins when it comes to buying/selling goods. We want Amazon.com and they gave us a strip mall anchored by Bob's Misc. Mob Drops and Amy's Weaver Emporium. I'm not sure what I would prefer over the FFXI AH.

Crafting

I prefer FFXIV crafting over FFXI. Local leves allow leveling progress without the need to create and dump a bunch of useless leveling fodder. And the crafting mini-game is more interactive than the all-or-nothing FFXI method. But the mini-game really needs Quality to mean something. It should mean something for crafting leves and it should mean something for actual crafted products.

Indirectly crafting hurt FFXIV if it influenced the creation of the Market Wards as a place for crafters to showcase their goods. It also hurt the game if it dictated the lack of challenging mission battles in order to accommodate dedicated crafters.

Plenty of other features to consider, like NM spawn conditions, loot distribution mechanisms, auto-attack, LS tools, seamless zones, etc.., but all of it will be compared to FFXI and if it doesn't compare favorably, it will be harped on. Rightly so.

I want it to be ffxi in the sense of great storyline and gameplay so far ffxiv does not meet that. Sky,COP,whitegate all of this is great but FFXIV is becoming more like wow or a western game and don't sit there and tell me no it's not. Right now FFXIV 2.0 is noting like ffxi. 1.0 is really like ffxi but i understand in today market we need to have stuff that are in other MMO have and that fine by me. But to make this game great for both hardcore / casual you can't make it 100% like ffxi or 100% like western type mmo.

FFXIV should try and stay unique systems while adding ffxi and wow system within if they can do this then it would be a great game if they go and make it ffxi 2.0 or a wow-clone it wont get far at all. Let's hope Yoshi-p knows what he doing when it come to 2.0 so far i loving everything there only a few things that should never be added but we see how it work out.

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Originally Posted by Zenaku

I want it to be ffxi in the sense of great storyline and gameplay so far ffxiv does not meet that. Sky,COP,whitegate all of this is great but FFXIV is becoming more like wow or a western game and don't sit there and tell me no it's not. Right now FFXIV 2.0 is noting like ffxi. 1.0 is really like ffxi but i understand in today market we need to have stuff that are in other MMO have and that fine by me. But to make this game great for both hardcore / casual you can't make it 100% like ffxi or 100% like western type mmo.

FFXIV should try and stay unique systems while adding ffxi and wow system within if they can do this then it would be a great game if they go and make it ffxi 2.0 or a wow-clone it wont get far at all. Let's hope Yoshi-p knows what he doing when it come to 2.0 so far i loving everything there only a few things that should never be added but we see how it work out.

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I don't play an MMO for story, per se, so I would rather have gameplay instead (and 2.0 will be releasing new forms of gameplay such as PvP, sieges). But overall I must agree with your position that FFXIV is becoming more generic, and I don't want that either.

Since the bad launch of 1.0, it seems like SE has lost confidence in their own ideas and so are merely trying to respond to market forces. And although this strategy can be good, and maybe even foster innovation, most of the time it doesn't and is the worst enemy of art and creativity.

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Originally Posted by Jennestia

Nah, the "XI-2" issue generally comes from people who are against that game (for whatever reason) and assume anyone who even mentions it (btw, Yoshida mentions FFXI a lot lately when referring to foundation systems) wants a direct copy. I mean, naturally when you hear Final Fantasy XIV as well as It's an MMORPG which is being developed by Square Enix you naturally assume they would have built off of what FFXI laid over the past 10ish years.

Not a clone, but building off of it -- XIV could have launch with damn well an offline RPG worth of storyline content if they built off of the same flow as XI, same with content systems, i.e Besieged/Campaign (guess what Imperial raids are reminiscent of?) Assault type systems where you do x type of raids and gather points to purchase gear and items and so on. Basically, things like that, which obviously is present in other RPGs, but the way XI did it had a twist to it, usually incorporating it into the storyline, most MMOs don't really add raids and the like to storyline, just a small backstory blurb as to why the instance even exists.

So there's nothing wrong with FFXI really and XIV wouldn't even exist as an MMO if they didn't succeed with XI because if it failed like some people in the XIV community like to say, they wouldn't have attempted FMO (didn't fail either, but wasn't as popular) nor would they do it a 3rd time (FFXIV).

As said there's really 3 eras of FFXI, which linked with how the MMO community changed:

CoP - Era, also known as the challenge era and golden age of FFXI, because not only did it offer a lot of base content expansion, it also offered twice as much end-game content than vanilla and zilart.

ToAU/WoTG - Era, also known as the beginning of the casual era. It fixed all of the problems people complained about, i.e having to actually do work for the storyline and made the storyline doable in a very quick pace ignoring Japanese midnight waits. It also added in a bunch of point based systems as well as one system we all love or hate (Salvage.) Later, it added poppable NMs (ZNM) and Einherjar (tier based dungeons.) Not to mention WoTG's epic storyline, but it also was the start of XIV's physical production...so the storyline spanned over 3 years....

Then comes Abyssea, which is the ultimate requiem to how MMOs are these days - Do a little work, gain massive rewards to the point you're almost overflowing with handouts. That's not to say it's a bad thing, but it does show just how MMOs have changed and what people come to expect. Whether you love it or hate it, Abyssea was well received because people who just join the game can get well geared in very short time compared to how long it used to take back in 2004-2006.

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Even if FFXI would have failed completely, they probably still would have came out with another MMO (DQX).

FFXI is so slow the player skill ceiling is extremely low. I'm glad they're moving away from those types of systems.

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Originally Posted by Tanoshii

FFXI is so slow the player skill ceiling is extremely low. I'm glad they're moving away from those types of systems.

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DQX says they aren't.

FFXI put me to sleep on several occasions.

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Originally Posted by Preypacer

When I read posts like this I can't help but think they're leaning clear into the "hyperbolic" end of things.

For one, your last paragraph sorta comes across as you saying "people have to be told what to do and tricked into having fun, 'cause they can't figure it how on their own.". It's a terribly cynical perspective... but not necessarily one without merit. However, I also don't think that entirely lays at SE's feet.

As for your description of FFXI... It certainly doesn't sound like the FFXI I played. For at least 90% of the time I played FFXI (from US PC launch up to just before Abyssea with a few breaks along the way), I had a ball. Only thing that ever got to me was some of the people I encountered.

I never stood around doing nothing unless that's exactly what I wanted to do. If I wanted to get an xp party and invites weren't coming as quickly, I'd try to assemble a party instead.

If it wasn't xp parties, I'd be doing something else.. like crafting, or putting together Assault groups, or working on lower level jobs.. or working on missions/quests I wanted to get done. There was always something to do in FFXI. You almost never had to stand around doing nothing... unless you chose to.

Notice how in the majority of complaints you hear about parties in XI, it entails the person complaining "standing around waiting for a party"? Their problem is contained right in their own complaint, and the solution was right in their own grasp.

The people I knew who tended to wait for others to invite them did tend to stand around waiting a lot. And oh how they complained, blaming SE, blaming the game, blaming their job.. blaming everyone and everything but themselves.

Meanwhile, those who chose to take the initiative and form parties were out xp'ing.

The problem largely lay in people wanting everything to come to them without effort or initiative on their part (as is the case with a lot of gamers these days, is it not?).

I had a good friend in FFXI who leveled not one, but two characters from scratch, getting all jobs - including the unpopular ones - from 1 to 75 in less time than many others would require. Why? She took initiative. She didn't stand around waiting for the invites to come to her... She sent the invites out herself. And before someone says "well she was a girl so it would be easier for her".. most people didn't know she was a female until after they were grouped with her.. if they ever found out at all. She didn't use her gender to get an easier ride.

She put as many hours into the game as many others did. The difference is, while others stood around complaining about "no invites", she was putting groups together.

I remember a discussion in LS one night where people were bitching about how long it took to get parties and were surprised at how she was always in a party, or going after a HNM, and generally always making progress. Her answer pissed half the LS off (those complaining) but it was absolutely true: "I make all this progress because I don't stand around with my thumb up my ass waiting for others to come to me so I can play the game".

Of course people in the LS argued with her left and right that she was wrong, that it had nothing to do with standing around, etc. But at the end of the day... the proof is in the pudding. She was assertive, took the initiative and didn't wait to be called on. If she wanted something, she grabbed the proverbial bull by the horns and made it happen. That was the only difference between her and the people sitting around in Jeuno "for hours" with their seek flags up.

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putting things together in ffxi was a tremendous hassle, full of ignorance arrogance elitism etc. It wasnt easy, unless you had a core group. The fact is it always took way longer to prepare to do something in ffxi, than it did to do it. Some things just made no sense, like the beastmen seal fight with gods, required 12-18 people, and yet, it would be almost impossible to do them 12 to 18 times in one sitting, so then you have to spend time trying to figure out how to distribute the rewards on what would be a substantial investment of time.

FFXI had it strengths, but it definitely had its weaknesses, and i would let this game have its own strengths and weaknesses, without trying to recreate FFXI, like many people have probably said, the FF idealogy is not one of sequels, just because YOU like i specific final fantasy doesnt mean every final fantasy should follow the same format. Take it or leave it, it is not XI, and it should never become XI, going by their previous design philosophy, and what makes sense while the XI product is still in circulation and viable.

There is no reason to make an XI-2 when XI is still around.

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Originally Posted by Physic

There is no reason to make an XI-2 when XI is still around.

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Which again, not one person has truly ever said -- Unless of course one is willing to admit that every MMORPG that has a similar interface is indeed a direct sequel of another MMO. For example Rappelz is clearly a Lineage II-2, it's undeniable.

Honestly, most people have specifically said take what worked in FFXI, i.e PARTY SEARCH and made it better, as well as taking content concepts, i.e Assault/Nyzul/Einherjar systems, as in point based raid systems, how is that making it FFXI-2?

Then again, Imperial Assaults are very reminiscent of the campaign system, so in a roundabout way, it's already FFXI-2 in that logic.

When it comes to classes and battle style, yes I always expected and hoped for a copy of FFXI, but even more upgraded and awesome. Didn't get that with either lol.
Everyone goes FFXI clone zomg like people want EVERYTHING copied, right down to the storyline. That for the most part isn't the case. We just want a next gen Final Fantasy game, hopefully based from our favorite FF series...and for the most part its FFIII

FFXI and FFXIV should have had the same kind of relationship Demon's and Dark souls have. While the second isn't the first's sequel, it builds off what made the first one great and enhances it while trying to avoid the flaws of the first.

That's how a good chunk of the fan base saw it, FFXIV was supposed to take everything good about FFXI (which was/is a good solid MMO) and make it better, and that sounded great and added to the hype for XIV.

But we got what we got and people raged about how the game wasn't only very different from XI, but it was inferior. (Bad game in general)

The "fixing" process started and I honestly assumed SE would starting copying the good things about XI and add them to XIV but then people started complaining and saying that they don't want the game to be anything like FFXI and screaming bloody murder whenever a similar aspect of XI makes it into XIV.

Whats bad about FFXI is that it was an evil time sink with 24~72hr re-spawn NMs with a very low drop %. Heavily based around grouping and as content got harder, pick up groups became less and less reliable and in the end forced people to find statics, which required more flexible play times instead of just logging whenever, playing then logging out, class imbalances, unavoidable cookie cutter builds, etc.

Anyhow, FFX has alot of good things going for it, and we shouldn't dismiss them just because we're scared of a "gasps" FFXI-2.

1. As a poster above said, it was a lot more efficient to take the initiative to make your own parties in 11 (and 14...), but even still it was a hassle searching for people. Still holds true for 14, if you cant find a tank or a healer than you will still sit around shouting for hours on end. Dungeon Finder will resolve this to an extent searching across servers.

2. I think one thing that FF11 improved upon itself was where the older events became elitist or you just had to go with your LS or you wont get any drops, the newer events since TAU you could do with pick up parties and earn points to spend at an npc. Thats what i'd like in 14, its difficult to attend LS events at certain times unless you dont work lol. I'd like to jump into PUG groups when I have little time so I at least acheieve something.

3. Another aspect where FF11 was good but for some reason it is not in 14 is BCNMs or Walk of Echoes type battles. We already have the dungeons where we trapse through mobs to get to a boss, its about time we had some Battlefields. The claiming system since patch 1.19 caters for such already. Its clear from the number of TotoRak and Darkhold runs, people at rank50 only really cared for boss fights, so a Walk of Echoes type zone would surely be most welcome in 14. We need some decent Bosses and Battlefields where we can take advantage/develop the strategy side of the battlesystem rather than burning through mobs in 10 seconds

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Originally Posted by Jennestia

Which again, not one person has truly ever said -- Unless of course one is willing to admit that every MMORPG that has a similar interface is indeed a direct sequel of another MMO. For example Rappelz is clearly a Lineage II-2, it's undeniable.

Honestly, most people have specifically said take what worked in FFXI, i.e PARTY SEARCH and made it better, as well as taking content concepts, i.e Assault/Nyzul/Einherjar systems, as in point based raid systems, how is that making it FFXI-2?

Then again, Imperial Assaults are very reminiscent of the campaign system, so in a roundabout way, it's already FFXI-2 in that logic.

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the point of the poster is that ffxi was good and they want more ffxi in ffxiv. This does not need to be the case, im not saying an FFXI-2 would suck, but there is no reason to make this game ffxi-2.

Party search is not an FFXI thing, it isnt what defines ffxi. Assualt nyzul and einherjar, well depends what you mean, nyzul is basically the tower climb mechanic, common in many RPGs Einherjar is basically similar but not shaped like a tower.

In all honesty this game is shaping up to offer something different and interesting, party versus party combat, if what yoshi says occurs happens, more story, materia offering more customization, a fairly different place in the heirarchy for crafting and gathering. This game has its own strengths to build on, they need to continue to build on that. They shouldnt it make the game into ffxi, and by ffxi im talking about party only play, overall lacklusterness of each class on its own, most high level content requiring large amounts of players in the same place at the same time, copies of unique ffxi systems, or monsters (one of the worst things they did was directly jack FFXI for monster models, i hope it stops here)

FFXI was cool, but this game can be its own game, it doesnt need to copy ffxi. why should it? ffxi was 1 out of 14 final fantasies, and it probably wasnt even the best selling one.

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Originally Posted by Arkine

FFXI and FFXIV should have had the same kind of relationship Demon's and Dark souls have. While the second isn't the first's sequel, it builds off what made the first one great and enhances it while trying to avoid the flaws of the first.

That's how a good chunk of the fan base saw it, FFXIV was supposed to take everything good about FFXI (which was/is a good solid MMO) and make it better, and that sounded great and added to the hype for XIV.

But we got what we got and people raged about how the game wasn't only very different from XI, but it was inferior. (Bad game in general)

The "fixing" process started and I honestly assumed SE would starting copying the good things about XI and add them to XIV but then people started complaining and saying that they don't want the game to be anything like FFXI and screaming bloody murder whenever a similar aspect of XI makes it into XIV.

Whats bad about FFXI is that it was an evil time sink with 24~72hr re-spawn NMs with a very low drop %. Heavily based around grouping and as content got harder, pick up groups became less and less reliable and in the end forced people to find statics, which required more flexible play times instead of just logging whenever, playing then logging out, class imbalances, unavoidable cookie cutter builds, etc.

Anyhow, FFX has alot of good things going for it, and we shouldn't dismiss them just because we're scared of a "gasps" FFXI-2.

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except that idealogy directly goes against what square has done with the FF franchise, ffxi was only 1 final fantasy, and FFXI isnt the most critically acclaimed, or the best selling one. Why out of all FF should they try to copy only that one?

imo they shouldnt borrow from ffxi, because it still exists, its still available and its still being marketed, MMOs dont need sequels, they can grow on their own, FFXI is its own sequel. There is no logical reason to make this game like that one. I sincerely hope the game continues to grow as its own entry in the FF franchise, and continues to offer a different type of online experience.

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Originally Posted by Physic

FFXI was cool, but this game can be its own game, it doesnt need to copy ffxi. why should it? ffxi was 1 out of 14 final fantasies, and it probably wasnt even the best selling one.

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It wasn't, if i recall XIII was pretty much up there alongside VII. Even then, as this person said:

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Originally Posted by Arkine

FFXI and FFXIV should have had the same kind of relationship Demon's and Dark souls have. While the second isn't the first's sequel, it builds off what made the first one great and enhances it while trying to avoid the flaws of the first.

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This is exactly the point. No a 'party search system is a FFXI exclusive', but it's from an MMORPG Square Enix made 10 years ago, there's no reason XIV should have lacked the same basic systems.

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Originally Posted by Physic

except that idealogy directly goes against what square has done with the FF franchise, ffxi was only 1 final fantasy,

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FFII built off of FFI.

FFIII built off of FFII and added a real job system.

FFV built off of FFIII and even enhanced the job system.

FFTT took the job system further, something that originated in FFIII (can argue II).

So yes, It does actually fit in what Square has done with FFs. Even FFXI is a glorified FFIII over an Everquest base.

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Originally Posted by Jennestia

It wasn't, if i recall XIII was pretty much up there alongside VII. Even then, as this person said:


This is exactly the point. No a 'party search system is a FFXI exclusive', but it's from an MMORPG Square Enix made 10 years ago, there's no reason XIV should have lacked the same basic systems.

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We get it. You hate FFXIV and run a fansite for it (ironically).

And we get it. FFXIV needs a good search function. We get that. I don't think anyone is saying otherwise.

What FFXIV doesnt need however is to degenerate into a FFXI clone, making all the same mistakes FFXI made.

I see FFXIV making the same mistakes FFXI made, even now, and it's a path which won't lead them to success. Going back the the required class and rank thing, for example. Freedom was one thing FFXI lacked entirely. And it's funny to see every other MMO moving toward giving players freedom, and at the same time see FFXIV pulling away from that trend.

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Originally Posted by ellohwell

We get it. You hate FFXIV and run a fansite for it (ironically)..

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That's funny, where did I say I hated FFXIV? Then again, I guess you actually like the fact XIV lacked basic systems of any MMORPG? Like a working party search system?

Which is also funny, a lot more people proved with their flatout refusal to play and even leaving the game pretty quickly they didn't enjoy the fact XIV lacked even basic features found in a previous MMORPG that Square made.

That's the problem here, if in FFXI and FMO there were basic systems present, why did XIV forgo it? You do realize Square admitted it was a mistake in it's original direction with the game, right? Why do you think they're overhauling the game?

Surely not because people enjoyed every single aspect about the game.

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it's a path which won't lead them to success. Going back the the required class and rank thing, for example

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Rift is pretty successful, it also has restrictions with certain aspects. So like you say:

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We get it

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You hate the system, that's fine.

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Originally Posted by Jennestia

That's funny, where did I say I hated FFXIV?

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I dunno, maybe it was somewhere inbetween the five-hundred times you have complained that FFXIV isn't FFXI-2.

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Then again, I guess you actually like the fact XIV lacked basic systems of any MMORPG? Like a working party search system?

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Here is my Jennestia impersonation of answering everything with a question: "Where did I say I liked MMORPGs purely because they dont have working party search systems?"

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Originally Posted by ellohwell

I dunno, maybe it was somewhere inbetween the five-hundred times you have complained that FFXIV isn't FFXI-2.

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Never once stated this, thanks for trying though. Btw, stating basic systems should be present in their next iteration of an MMORPG doesn't say "it should be a (mmo)-2".

If you make and create 2 working MMOs, then create a broken 3 that doesn't even take the basics of a 10 year old established MMORPG that was previous created by the same company...there's a problem, and a lot of people seen that problem.

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Originally Posted by Jennestia

Never once stated this, thanks for trying though.

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You don't even know what you want anymore...

If it's just a working party search system that you want, well gurlfriend, that can be arranged! I hope you look forward to patch 1.20 which will provide that for you.

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Originally Posted by ellohwell

You don't even know what you want anymore...

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I do actually:

A MMORPG that shows they've learned something in the past 10 years between two (fairly different) MMORPGs they've created that both were successful. When you look at FFXIV, you feel they've learned..nothing, everything they've stepped forward with, they've taken many steps backwards.

A lot of things are bad about FFXI.

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Originally Posted by EmeraldHill

A lot of things are bad about FFXI.

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Nothing was bad about XI unless you were bad at the game.

@OP. FFXI is not a bad thing but FFXI is already running and the point was to make another MMORPG that is different for the most part(some similarities) and have them both up and running at the same time. Why would you want a FFXI-2 when you have FFXI out? They don't want to take away from the FFXI fanbase/subscription base they want you to play either games or play both.

I played FFXI for years and I occasionally go back and play it but for the most part I would rather play a current gen FF online title.Not just another rehash of the old same game, I loved FFXI but I want something new and different. I really enjoy FFXIV through all of its hiccups because the game is constantly getting better and more enjoyable.

The graphics.

There are certainly things XI did right, the search function, party dynamics, and the emphasis on story were all really good. The world was very defined and felt like a place. The small challenges you encountered earlier like the walk to Jueno the first time were memorable. Alot of these better parts are in the pipe so im glad to see what worked well coming back.

But.

Making impractical throw men at it events, 24 hour spawns, terrible class balance, and more luck based systems than you can count is not hardcore its just poor design.

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Originally Posted by Visch

Nothing was bad about XI unless you were bad at the game.

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I'm sorry that you can't accept simple facts.