Aymeric (SPOILERS)

when he muttered to nithog after almost killing vedofnier.... Im sure he said I thank you..... hes dark....

also another intresting thing is why the scions and you the wol sided with him in the grand melee. looks like hes trying to divide the forces covertly...

I was thinking, the objectives of the plot I'm hoping for do not nessisarily need to have Estinien to die. it would be greater chance for us to "blow up", yes, but how about this:

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Say Estinien manages to snap out of it, thanks to Alphinaud's and our characters efforts, but in the process we get grievously injured, and collapse shortly after. It looks like we might die. This would likely cause tension and a conversation among the Scions, who would either see it as the WoL foolishly throwing their life(and the world) away for some random guy, or a friend that is personally suffering after all that's happened. Estinien himself might even have a word, having partaken in war for a long time.

Either way, like Alphinaud in 3.0 some are confronted with the prospect that one day Eorzea's champion might not come home, and come away with their own answer to that. Perhaps some would try to help us, or be enticed with the idea of finding a replacement.(read: Derplander). Needless to say, if anyone voices their displeasure at us saving Estinien to our face, that could be a good time to "blow up".

After our brush with death, it becomes clear to our character that despite our efforts, nothing is quite the same anymore...even with ourselves.

:insert Derplander scowling here:
:Insert wily shenanagans with Yda and Papalymo here:

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Keeps Aymeric in the clear(or at least not some last minute villain), and introduces tensions in the aftermath of the peace.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie-Amber

when he muttered to nithog after almost killing vedofnier.... Im sure he said I thank you..... hes dark....

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I don't think we can use the movement of the lips to read what he said...the animations (as far as I can tell) for it are the same in Japanese and English audio options, and it's actually likely that the animations when created were meant to match the Japanese audio, which means reading his lips of anything in English wouldn't be accurate.

Seemed more like he wanted to have a more "romantic" encounter with the WoL after that drink to me.

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Originally Posted by Tsubakii

Seemed more like he wanted to have a more "romantic" encounter with the WoL after that drink to me.

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The benefits of being elezen. ^^

Benefits? And here I am wondering how many stoic airs I'll have to put on to tell him I'm not interested.

My heart belongs to someone else.

And I don't want to get romantically involved with anyone either.

Eh, I'd rather not get into the territory of the WoL forming romantic relationships with major lore characters. I didn't read into his comment as necessarily romantic, though. More like...he just genuinely wanted to sit down with the WoL and have a friendly chat free of any intrigue or drama. Given how busy both of them are, however, there's a high chance that this won't actually happen...at least not for a while. That Thancred states that it 'could be love' is likely hyperbole on his part and a consequence of him thinking of such things fairly often. Dangerously often, even.

To be quite honest, I wouldn't mind the option for romance, given you could either opt out or choose your partner based on a set of options.

I found Haurchefant a tad creepy and I'm not terribly fond of Aymeric, so I wouldn't really like my character getting serious with either of them.

(That joke Favor system that went over the female options? Sign me up for Garuda.)

I'm not opposed to it. I just struggle to see how it'd be pulled off well. There would be a lot of drama because there's a lot of people out there who would no doubt get very clingy about 'their' character's lover. For the sake of fairness they'd have to provide a lot of options to account for different tastes. I don't care much for Haurchefant or Aymeric either - mostly because they don't 'feel' as Ishgardian to me as Ysayle and Estinien did. The best route would be to make all the available options 'player sexual' in that the player chooses who they romance. It'd also be the best compromise, I feel since everybody has their own 'WoL' and completely separate 'what if' story.

Haurchefant was/is the only person I can see my own WoL hooking up with and that's only because so far he's been the only one to show interest.

My character is male though.

If my character were a female could I date Thancred with this system? I'd be okay with this.

Haurchefant works great regardless of gender. We shall miss him...

That said if a favor system ever come into play Loonh better be a part of it!

As for Aymeric, he won't end up being evil. His actions have caused things to go awry at times (Haurchefant noooooooo!) but his heart is indeed in he right place. At worst we'll have to fight him because we wish to save Estinien while he believes his only recourse is to kill him to save him, but ultimately he'll believe in us. Probably even say something before the fight that he WANTS to believe we can do it.

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Originally Posted by Dualblade

As for Aymeric, he won't end up being evil. His actions have caused things to go awry at times (Haurchefant noooooooo!) but his heart is indeed in he right place. At worst we'll have to fight him because we wish to save Estinien while he believes his only recourse is to kill him to save him, but ultimately he'll believe in us. Probably even say something before the fight that he WANTS to believe we can do it.

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Honestly this is what I see happening, too.

We'll have to fight Ser Aymeric or somehow "deal" with him (but likely not kill him) to save Estinien.

Aymeric and Estinien have a history and I don't think Aymeric WANTS to kill Estinien but Estinien is clearly thoroughly corrupted by Nidhogg right now and I doubt he sees any other choice. He doesn't know about the Echo as far as I know.

The nation of Ishgard is also crying out for Nidhogg's blood.

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Originally Posted by Ayuhra

Aymeric and Estinien have a history and I don't think Aymeric WANTS to kill Estinien but Estinien is clearly thoroughly corrupted by Nidhogg right now and I doubt he sees any other choice. He doesn't know about the Echo as far as I know.

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Oh he likely knows. He noticed that we saw his memory of getting captured by his dad after freeing him form the Vault

I think a lot of people would complain if Thancred could only be romanced by female characters. :p

Personally if given the choice to pick a lover for my WoL I'd go with:

- Estinien
- Thancred
- Varis
- Regula
- Nero

At least one of them. Maybe all of them? At the same time? Heh.

But I feel like a lot of the characters that appeal to me wouldn't be available for a romance, sadly. I guess this is how poor Cyril feels, eh? :p

I would so be down with Estinien too he's my favorite character in this game (Hashtag "#SaveEstinien"). Him, Alphinaud, Thancred, Ysayle and Haurchefant are all among my favorites.

Heavensward hurts.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

But I feel like a lot of the characters that appeal to me wouldn't be available for a romance, sadly. I guess this is how poor Cyril feels, eh? :p

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Ahaha. Ha. Ha. ha. :(

I would have taken Ysayle. But, er, yeah.

Elidibus is still a possibility! Maybe. Possibly. R-right?

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Originally Posted by Theodric

But I feel like a lot of the characters that appeal to me wouldn't be available for a romance, sadly. I guess this is how poor Cyril feels, eh? :p

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And Fenral :p

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Originally Posted by Theodric

I'm not opposed to it. I just struggle to see how it'd be pulled off well.

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I'm not sure it could be pulled off all, so I'm content with leaving it in personal head canon territory.

Which of course I had for my own character, including anything that might or might not (totally did) happen between her and Haurchefant.

Aymeric is also some one she would likely fall for but I haven't decided if that's in my head canon or not.

If Aymeric was evil, I'd be genuinely surprised.

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Originally Posted by Morningstar1337

And Fenral :p

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You get a like because I hadn't looked through this thread at all before now. :P I feel so loved.

When inevitable romantic undertones happen, mostly I want my character's reaction to not be fixed to the event scripter's personal bias, even if it can never go anywhere (then again, SWTOR got away with mind-rape hate sex and kept a T rating, so anything's possible). Failing that, I want everyone to be herosexual like in Dragon's Dogma, where literally any NPC in the entire game (except the mad Duke) can become your Beloved and will "reward" you after saving them from the Dragon.

...

But back on the topic of Aymeric, he's not evil, nor is he in any danger now that he's in our Leader group with the rest of the Eorzean Alliance. I think he's in a dark place now that he thinks killing Estinien is the way to start Ishgard's new future, and any thoughts of saving him must be pushed aside for the "greater good." He's also overworking himself with a life-threatening injury, probably because he's decided he doesn't deserve to be a part of the new Ishgard. He might even think he can just die here and leave us to carry on in his memory, because he believes Lucia's strong enough to carry on without him or some such rot.

Because the greater good doesn't allow you to value individuals (or yourself) independently of the group. I'm really glad this is finally becoming an actual conflict and no longer just taken for granted. Self-sacrifice can be really selfish sometimes.

Well, I haven't picked through this entire thread yet, and it's more than likely that someone mentioned this already, but if I were pressed to consider the possibility of Aymeric being "evil-ish" I could kind of see it.

The thing is, Nidhogg's actions play into Aymeric's long term goals (peace with Dragons). So, in theory, any evil actions that Nidhogg takes towards Aymeric or his possible allies is to Aymeric's benefit. At the peace summit, for example, when Nidhogg showed up and speared Vidofnir, he kinda sealed the deal. Humans and dragons alike witnessed his barbarism. He made an enemy of both. What better time for humans and dragons to come together against a common foe?

Being a smart man, it's not impossible that Aymeric foresaw such a development and plans to take advantage of the situation. I wouldn't be surprised to find out that he were secretly grateful to Nidhogg for his tremendously stupid actions. A more conniving character might have known that the attack was coming and intentionally allowed it. A downright morally reprehensible character would have orchestrated the whole thing with the intent of greasing the wheels with the dragons.

As for his advances on the Warrior of Light ... If I were being cynical, I would say that there's a lot of political posturing going on between Aymeric and the 3 GC's. First, he has us fight for Ishgard against our own grand companies. Then, at the last minute, he forces us to wear Ishgardian (butt ugly) colours during the melee. It's like he's politely declaring that he is claiming the WoL as his own. Even the other GC leaders took note of it, and despite their politically correct diction, there were a lot of heavy implications (the worst of which being a cold war styled arms race in which we are the arm) ... Again, though, that's looking at things with a pretty cynical eye, and it still doesn't necessarily paint Aymeric as a "bad guy." As of yet, his intentions do seem good ... Though, if he really does plan on taking a hold of our services and creating a united force with the dragons there is room for that cynical eye to stretch a bit to more grand aspirations that aren't necessarily as good as things seem now. I have a feeling that the Garleans will be the major stumbling block to any of that, though.

After reading your post, I got this twisted idea in my head that Estinien is actually fully in control of himself, and he's taking on Nidhogg's form for the sake of making himself the last obstacle to peace between man and dragon. There's no way the Azure Dragoon would "accidentally" fail to land a fatal blow. Whether Aymeric is in on it or not is another story.

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Originally Posted by Fenral

After reading your post, I got this twisted idea in my head that Estinien is actually fully in control of himself, and he's taking on Nidhogg's form for the sake of making himself the last obstacle to peace between man and dragon. There's no way the Azure Dragoon would "accidentally" fail to land a fatal blow. Whether Aymeric is in on it or not is another story.

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It's kinda fun being cynical, isn't it? lol

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Originally Posted by Fenral

After reading your post, I got this twisted idea in my head that Estinien is actually fully in control of himself, and he's taking on Nidhogg's form for the sake of making himself the last obstacle to peace between man and dragon. There's no way the Azure Dragoon would "accidentally" fail to land a fatal blow. Whether Aymeric is in on it or not is another story.

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Final Fantasy XIV: Watchmen

I personally believe that Aymeric is slowly shaping up to become Ishgard's GC leader ... but what will happen to the Bishop's seat?

Will it be something like Ul'dah where there's the head of state and GC leader or will it be more absolute in the sense that Kan E Senna is Elder Seedseer/ GC leader?

I am mostly interested if Ishgard will keep it's Theocracy or will it become something else ... like a republic?

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Originally Posted by Februs

It's kinda fun being cynical, isn't it? lol

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I'm actually so cynical that it's rolled over into really stubborn optimism, like a reverse of the Nuclear Gandhi glitch in Civilization.

I'm really in the same boat as Fenral. I'm so cynical it looped around into some sort of masochistic optimism.

In regards to Thancred turning to the Ascians/WoDs - Yeah, no. I don't see it as realistic at all.

I do expect him to do something very foolish and desperate to save Minfilia, but he was possessed by Lahabrea, I can't see him buddybuddying with Elidibus like we do.

My belief is that he's so averse to anything Ascian that if Urianger comes out and finally admits to having some nice, world-ending discussions with Second Best Ascian, Thancred will close his eyes and cover his ears and refuse to listen to reason. 'It's their fault she's gone!' or somesuch and lash out at Urianger.

Come to think of it, He didn't show up when we knocked on Sephirot's door (then again I;d imagine that be might be at greater risk than most being near primals/eikons after Flow)

That's actually an interesting point. Why wouldn't Thancred be there? I mean, he went and solo'd a FATE for us during the MSQ battle, so he's far from helpless. Even Urianger was out there distracting/fighting the Garleans, and I don't think we've seen him take an active role in battle since 1.0.

So, where was Thancred? Was he not invited? Did he get mentioned offhand some time in the quest as busy and I don't remember it? Sephirot requires 3.1 to be finished to start, so it can't be that SE is playing it cautious and doing the "let's keep Thancred out in case they haven't done the MSQ" yet.

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Originally Posted by Morningstar1337

Come to think of it, He didn't show up when we knocked on Sephirot's door (then again I;d imagine that be might be at greater risk than most being near primals/eikons after Flow)

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You forgot a 'h' there. It's Sephiroth, not 'Sephirot'. :)

(I am kidding, don't hurt me!)

Anyway! It's possible that Thancred recalls a lot of stuff from his time being possessed by an Ascian - so he may feel as though teaming up with them to save Minfilia is a 'wise' move on his part. Desperate people do desperate things after all - and he's prone to punishing himself severely/not talking out his problems and acting recklessly instead.

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Originally Posted by myahele

I am mostly interested if Ishgard will keep it's Theocracy or will it become something else ... like a republic?

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I feel like Ishgard will become a stratocracy, that is to say, a government controlled by the military, in this case it being the Temple Knights. It's not, strictly speaking, the same as a military dictatorship, here's the definition on wikipedia that sums it up pretty well.

"A stratocracy (from στρατός, stratos, "army" and κράτος, kratos, "dominion", "power") is a form of government headed by military chiefs. It is not the same as a military dictatorship or military junta where the military's political power is not enforced or even supported by other laws. Rather, stratocracy is a form of military government in which the state and the military are traditionally or constitutionally the same entity, and government positions are always occupied by commissioned officers and military leaders. Citizens with mandatory and/or voluntary military service, or who have been honorably discharged, have the right to elect and/or govern. The military's political power is supported by law, the constitution, and the society. A stratocracy therefore is more often a meritocracy and does not have to be autocratic by nature in order to preserve its right to rule."

Then again, it might not work if they make peace with the dragons, but given that Aymeric is the de facto leader of Ishgard right now, I don't feel that the above is unthinkable. He could easily delegate responsibilities to his most trusted officers since they could be the only one he could fully trust next to House Fortemps and given that the final battle of the Dragonsong War is likely to be coming very soon in the MSQ, they'll need every capable officer in charge preparing for the defense.

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Originally Posted by Fenral

I'm actually so cynical that it's rolled over into really stubborn optimism, like a reverse of the Nuclear Gandhi glitch in Civilization.

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Originally Posted by CyrilLucifer

I'm really in the same boat as Fenral. I'm so cynical it looped around into some sort of masochistic optimism.

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I know exactly what you guys mean lol.

As for the Thancred thing, I was under the assumption that it was a run on from the 2.3 (ish) days. They basically cock blocked Thancred from any kind of Primal utility based on him being somehow more susceptible to Primal influences than the rest of the group after his run in with Lahabreah. It was always kind of shotty lore, to be honest, because they don't actually explain how one can be more or less susceptible to influence (tempering always kind of came off as an all or nothing kind of deal), but that was the reasoning that they went with to keep Thancred out of the line of fire. I figured that his absence during the Sephirot ordeal was on account of this, and that they just didn't mention it because re-running the same lore points over and over makes for stale dialogue.

His heightened susceptibility is also why I tend to keep Thancred separate from any Ascian dealings as well. Thancred seems to be coming to terms with his loss of Minfilia, so I don't see him running off to charge into the Ascian hands anytime soon, but, even if he was that desperate, it stands to reason that he would avoid them simply because he knows how easy it would be for them to flip his switch (kinky...).

Now, if I were to take the cynical approach to this, on the flip side his heightened susceptibility to influences would, in theory, make it pretty easy for a smooth talker like Elidibus to get under his skin. So, IF, hypothetically, Thancred were to go off of the deep end in his pursuit of saving Minfilia, I don't think that it would be outside of the realm of possibility for him to be coaxed into doing something stupid by an Ascian.

That said, I find this unlikely. The current writing seems to be building up Thancred as the voice of matured enlightenment via the contrasted character dispositions between himself and Emmanellain. So it would be more likely for Thancred to be at his highest guard against such influences at the moment ... of course, that would make any lapses in judgement (or downright manipulations) to be all the more tragic and impactful....

Huh, I always assumed Thancred wasn't helping with Sephirot because he can't teleport to Azys Lla. Doubt everyone is going to travel to Ishgard and take the airship there when they can do that from the Rising Stones directly

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Originally Posted by PArcher

Huh, I always assumed Thancred wasn't helping with Sephirot because he can't teleport to Azys Lla. Doubt everyone is going to travel to Ishgard and take the airship there when they can do that from the Rising Stones directly

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Krile and Urianger haven't even been to Azys Lla prior to this questline, they couldn't teleport there, either. They would have had to take the airship. Thancred not being able to teleport isn't really an excuse in this case. And Mor Dhona isn't terribly far from Ishgard; after all, Thancred got to the Stones and back to Ishgard next patch once already!

That being said, looking at Unukalhai's dialogue, he says straight out that the Scions are aiding 'us' (referring to you, him, and Krile) against the Triad. Urianger actually getting some air from his hidey hole makes sense, considering he wants to see if Unukalhai can be trusted, but I don't really see a reason why Thancred didn't. The goal was never for them to be near the primals, they were always going to stay back and make sure no one interfered.

Maybe its a hint that, while not neccesarily JOINING the Ascians, Thancred might not be helping us for one reason or another starting next patch?

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Originally Posted by CyrilLucifer

Krile and Urianger haven't even been to Azys Lla prior to this questline, they couldn't teleport there, either. They would have had to take the airship. Thancred not being able to teleport isn't really an excuse in this case. And Mor Dhona isn't terribly far from Ishgard; after all, Thancred got to the Stones and back to Ishgard next patch once already!

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Well, we don't know that for sure. Time definitely passes between patches, how much we don't know. Somehow Urianger got to the Library and then back to the Waking Sands between then ending of 3.0 and the start of 3.1, after all; very possible that between 3.1 and 3.2 they both went to Azys Lla to see take a look at the Triad statues for themselves.

Perhaps Thancred and the WoD will hookup, eh?

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I wouldn't complain at all.

Just something I was thinking about...

It may just be my interpretation but to me it seemed Aymeric didn't shoot to kill the possessed Estinien but was aiming at one of the eyes. At least the arrow was in perfect position for the dragonified Estie to intercept it with his hand:
https://youtu.be/MzfqJ0aBhik?list=PL...Tq3e39xZ&t=934
Could destroying the eyes free Estie?

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Originally Posted by Februs

A downright morally reprehensible character would have orchestrated the whole thing with the intent of greasing the wheels with the dragons.

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This is exactly what I am sensing. I nevet fully states that Aymeric is evil but that I don't trust him. Exactly like Littlefinger in GoT. They are both masters of manipulation and are willing to sacrifice a few to achieve their long term goals. Peace with the dragons would put Aymeric in the top seat for Ishgard. Why not use a pawn to achieve that vision.