That Garlean guy, what was his name? Gaius Van Baelsar

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Originally Posted by Lucke

Check this out. In 3.3 Raubahn will get a mechanical magitek arm from Cid and he'll change his name to Bull Snake and help Yugiri's ninja spy on his enemies.

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That someday, Raubahn getting a mecanical arm is posibble and becoming the reference of an old FF character.

Pretty sure there was an interview with Yoshida around 2.1s time where he flat out confirmed Gaius is dead dead... That said, he also hinted at him coming back in some other form later, and all this time later I'm still waiting for my Minstrels Ballad: Garlean Rangers fight... Thought what I'd really like is a Memoria style instance in which we run through a brief retelling of past events, would be perfect for Keeper of the Lake (Hard) (assuming we go below it) in 3.5 really... I quick recap of Eorzean history, with the final boss being from the more recent past, with Gaius van Baelsar as he was in 1.0 (you know, the cutscene where we had to run away from him) ready for 4.0 to push us into Ala Mhigo.

@Lahabrea, his aether was shown specifically being absorbed by Nidhoggs Eye, while the Sahagin Elders aether went right up to Leviathans face to get nom'd. The Ascalon was forged by Thordan and was not a part of the Primal, hence it remaining after his defeat. Given Lahabrea was absorbed by the Eye, it is fairly reasonable to conclude Lahabrea might return... I mean, we straight up watched Nidhogg blow up into bits of aether, yet here he is again... Plus we have him acting strangely now, with 3.1 telling us that he is making for "skies unknown", why? He didn't actually involve himself in assaults on Ishgard because he was fearful of them now having a Primal in Thordan (likely also why he called on Midgardsormr, hence why we investigated the Keeper of the Lake), but Ishgard is in a pretty pathetic state now. If he was going to strike, now would be the time to do it. There is no more Thordan kicking around, there is/was even some infighting he could take full advantage of, but instead he has flown off to do go knows what? My money is on him going to the opticians, because he has an angry Lahabrea shaped eye floater.

We also need Omega to enter the plot again at some point (this was confirmed, no?), so I'm incline to think Nidhogg will be doing something to make a Bahamut-killing super weapon relevant... A fusion with Lahabrea (similar to how we got Ascian Prime) to give us Shinryu? Lahabrea doing what he did with Thordan and Ysayle, and having Nidhogg summon Bahamut unto himself?

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Originally Posted by Phyllo

Under normal circumstances I'd accept lahabrea's death given the facts and all but seriously, we killed thordan yet the sword remains? That's beyond obviousness that something is up xD

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Since Ascalon technically isn't part of the Thordan primal itself (it's Haldrath's transmogrified corpse with Nidhogg's eye embedded in the hilt as a battery), causally it wouldn't make sense for that to happen.

The simplest explanation is usually the correct one.

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Originally Posted by Nalien

@Lahabrea

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Right before Thordan's grand entrance, we were treated to a scene of Igeyorhm trying to use her Dark Crystal to flee to the Interstitial World. Lahabrea did not do the same, so it's likely he's gone gone in the same way the Sahagin Elder got eaten by Leviathan.

As for Nidhogg, the truth is that he doesn't want to destroy Ishgard. Hraesvelgr straight-up told us his goal is just to make them suffer forever. So actually, it does make sense for him to be leaving Ishgard alone right now - he's letting them build up their hope so that he can crush it later.

Whatever else he's doing, where he's going, is beyond me. But I have a very hard time believing Lahabrea is still alive and kicking in there.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

Right before Thordan's grand entrance, we were treated to a scene of Igeyorhm trying to use her Dark Crystal to flee to the Interstitial World. Lahabrea did not do the same, so it's likely he's gone gone in the same way the Sahagin Elder got eaten by Leviathan.

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I'm not sure I follow... We killed Igeyorhm, what does it matter what she did before hand? Meanwhile Lahabrea was still shown being absorbed not by Thordan (as was the case with the Sahagin and Leviathna), but by Nidhoggs Eye. They specifically worked the scene to show Lahabreas aether getting drawn into Nidhoggs Eye.

By no means is that proof he is alive, but it seems like an important distinction nonetheless, more so given Nidhogg then popped back into being after being killed before hand... Nidhogg absorbed Lahabrea, and we have no idea if absorbing an Ascian even does anything, the Sahagin Elder was by no means an expert in the Echo...

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Originally Posted by Cilia

As for Nidhogg, the truth is that he doesn't want to destroy Ishgard. Hraesvelgr straight-up told us his goal is just to make them suffer forever. So actually, it does make sense for him to be leaving Ishgard alone right now - he's letting them build up their hope so that he can crush it later.

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Yes, and he used to lead the "assault" on Ishgard personally. However, this time he didn't, he even called on Midgardsormr for help prior to us bumping into Midgardsormr, because Thordan popped a Primal. Ishgard went from being something he could toy with for revenge, to a serious problem for him, and he reacted accordingly.

What is he doing now, exactly? Giving Ishgard time to cermet their relationship with Hraesvelgrs brood and the Eorzean Alliance? Ishgard is no longer the isolated City-State it once was, rather than taking full advantage of the current chaos, he has instead gone off to do something, and in the mean time Ishgard grows stronger. Its people more open to peace with Dravania, and its military might bolstered by the rest of Eorzea. I wouldn't call that letting them build their hope back up to crush it again later, that's just straight up letting them get the edge over you... Midgardsormr is even on our side at this point... Unless he has gone off to find some anti-Ishgard deus ex machina, his actions make no sense... It is no longer his brood versus Ishgard, it is his brood versus Eorzea and arguably the rest of his family... All Ishgard needs to do is dust off Omega and they could probably end this for good, which is seemingly exactly what he is giving them time to do...

Heck, the Gnath beast tribe quest portion of the trailer even had the knights at the Convictory burning some green smoke... So, Ishgard also has allies who can teach them how to make dragon-repels now... Nidhogg should have acted quickly to prevent this, left some survivors as he used to, who would then pass on stories of how "heretics" wormed their way into Ishgard, killed the Pope, and allowed all this to happen. Instead he is just letting Ishgard get more and more powerful.

Even if we ignore all that... This still isn't how he acted in the past. When he was letting Ishgard rebuild, he sat in his Aery and waited, he didn't go flying off to places unknown. Something has changed to cause him to do that. Garlean Empire? The fact that he is technically Estinien? Or the detail that his Eye absorbed Lahabrea, rather than Thordan? All are equally plausible IMO. Combine the lackluster end to Lahabrea, with subtle hints that he had more going on than even Elidibus was aware of, and I'm leaning towards the later.

I'm currently working on the idea that Estinian is working on Nidhogg's mind the same way Saint Shiva is on Hraysvelgr.

Possibly more so since Nidhogg's Ghost is what body snached him.

I think we may find Eistenian has a little more sway over Nidhogg's 2.0 than Nidhogg's Ghost would like.

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Originally Posted by Nalien

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I just think it may happen what we saw on the movie trailer. Nidhoog will go for a ALL or NOTHING.

His last stance. Going for all. " I may die but I will bring Ishgard with me"

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Originally Posted by Frederick22

I just think it may happen what we saw on the movie trailer. Nidhoog will go for a ALL or NOTHING.

His last stance. Going for all. " I may die but I will bring Ishgard with me"

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That's why I'm incline to think "skies unknown" is Garlemald. Not so much to sign up with them, but to inform them what exactly has gone down. Specifically that Ishgard summoned Thordan.

While he may have lost the Dragonsong War, he'll ensure Ishgard still doesn't know peace by bringing the hammer of the Empire down on them.

This is, of course, if Lahabrea isn't an evil eye floater compelling him to summon a dead relative unto himself, giving us a Shinryu/Omega showdown as the dramatic conclusion to the Dragonsong War.

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Originally Posted by Nalien

That's why I'm incline to think "skies unknown" is Garlemald. Not so much to sign up with them, but to inform them what exactly has gone down. Specifically that Ishgard summoned Thordan.

While he may have lost the Dragonsong War, he'll ensure Ishgard still doesn't know peace by bringing the hammer of the Empire down on them.

This is, of course, if Lahabrea isn't an evil eye floater compelling him to summon a dead relative unto himself, giving us a Shinryu/Omega showdown as the dramatic conclusion to the Dragonsong War.

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And what does that has to do with the movie trailer at all?
Nidhood allied with the Garleans? They would kill him asap!
Besides Nidhoog hates all humans.

what are you saing? e__e

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Originally Posted by Frederick22

And what does that has to do with the movie trailer at all?

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You suggested he'd go for an all or nothing attack on Ishgard. If he was going to do that, he'd already of done it, while Ishgard was still relatively unstable and only just getting familiar with its new allies (both Dravanian and Eorzean). I suggested that, since he hasn't done that and instead flown of to "skies unknown", that he is perhaps playing this slightly differently. Ensuring Ishgard suffers regardless of his fate.

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Originally Posted by Frederick22

Nidhood allied with the Garleans? They would kill him asap!
Besides Nidhoog hates all humans.

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I said inform them, not allying with them... You don't have to ally with Garlemald to knock on their door and go "Yo, you know they've been summoning Primals, right?" and then fly off again. I mean... They attack us on sight, we fend them off, then they tend to have little chats with us before running off... No reason they wouldn't do the same with Nidhogg... I assume he can handle a few Garlean grunts, and that's assuming he can't just turn back into Estinien for diplomacy...

It's what I'd do in his shoes, at least. If I hated all mortals, Ishgard most of all, I'd go make sure the giant angry Primal hating (to the point of committing genocide on the groups that summoned Primals) Empire knows "Ishgard" summoned Thordan, so said Empire makes an enemy of my enemy. That way, no matter what happens to me, I'd have the last laugh, knowing that they're going to be stuck fighting each other regardless. It would be a good way to close the Dragonsong War, while also drawing us into a bigger conflict with Garlemald ready for 4.0.

The whole point that Nidhogg was flying off somewhere else needs to have some explanation.

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Originally Posted by Nalien

You suggested he'd go for an all or nothing attack on Ishgard. If he was going to do that, he'd already of done it, while Ishgard was still relatively unstable and only just getting familiar with its new allies (both Dravanian and Eorzean). I suggested that, since he hasn't done that and instead flown of to "skies unknown", that he is perhaps playing this slightly differently. Ensuring Ishgard suffers regardless of his fate.

I said inform them, not allying with them... You don't have to ally with Garlemald to knock on their door and go "Yo, you know they've been summoning Primals, right?" and then fly off again. I mean... They attack us on sight, we fend them off, then they tend to have little chats with us before running off... No reason they wouldn't do the same with Nidhogg... I assume he can handle a few Garlean grunts, and that's assuming he can't just turn back into Estinien for diplomacy...

It's what I'd do in his shoes, at least. If I hated all mortals, Ishgard most of all, I'd go make sure the giant angry Primal hating (to the point of committing genocide on the groups that summoned Primals) Empire knows "Ishgard" summoned Thordan, so said Empire makes an enemy of my enemy. That way, no matter what happens to me, I'd have the last laugh, knowing that they're going to be stuck fighting each other regardless. It would be a good way to close the Dragonsong War, while also drawing us into a bigger conflict with Garlemald ready for 4.0.

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Nidhoog will never trust humans to make an "alliance with the gearleans" nor the Garleans will ally with him. Trust me is less probable than he tries to talk with the garleans than going for an all or nothing

Dude... I literally just clarified what I said...

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Originally Posted by Nalien

I said inform them, not allying with them...

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Telling everyones favorite "Lets kill this entire tribe because they summoned a Primal" Empire that Ishgard summoned a Primal =/= becoming BFFs with said Empire... He can very easily talk with them, the same way we're able to occasionally talk with them, being shot at first doesn't stop us from chatting with them after killing a few dozen of them.

Like I also said, if he was going for an all or nothing assault, he missed his chance. You'd want to do something like that while they're still confused and fighting each other... You know, like what was happening in 3.1? Instead, we get news that he has flown off to "skies unknown" in the same patch... He is up to something...

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Originally Posted by Frederick22

Is the same, he hates all humans. Why he would toss them some info?

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Like I said, to have them fight each other... Who benefits the most from a Garlean/Eorzean conflict? Garlemald would have losses, Eorzea would have losses, the mortal hating Dragon would get a good laugh out of it all, though.

He also doesn't hate all mortals equally... If that were the case, he wouldn't have restricted himself to 1,000 years on Ishgard. He has a very specific axe to grind with them at this point. Giving the Empire a good reason to declare war on them would totally be in Nidhoggs interests.

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Originally Posted by Frederick22

Why the garleans would trust him? just with seen him, they will try to kill the dragon xD

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Do we actually have any indication that Garlemald hates dragons and would kill them on sight? They had some dirty business with Midgardsormr, but were I in their shoes, that would make something like Nidhogg knocking on my front door all the more interesting...

As for why they'd trust him... They saw Ysayle summon Shiva to take down their fancy new warship, if I was in the dark I'd probably not know what to make of that, but then if someone pops by and tells me Ishgard summoned a God-King? Then things start fitting into place; Eorzea has people summoning Primals, better at least go check that out. Thus, an escalation of Eorzean/Garlean conflicts ready for 4.0.

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Originally Posted by Nalien

Dude... I literally just clarified what I said...



Telling everyones favorite "Lets kill this entire tribe because they summoned a Primal" Empire that Ishgard summoned a Primal =/= becoming BFFs with said Empire...

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Is the same, he hates all humans. Why he would toss them some info? he isnt even up his right mind to beging with
Why the garleans would trust him? just with seen him, they will try to kill the dragon xD

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Originally Posted by Nalien

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It's actually very important. If you recall one of the many infodumps after a primal battle in 2.x - specifically, post-Leviathan (2.2) - Ascians need to use a Dark Crystal to flee to the Interstitial World between our plane and the Aetherial Sea to avoid death. That's why Igeyorhm pulled hers out and tried to use it, only to get a facefull of White Auracite and get blasted to pieces.

Lahabrea, on the other hand, did not. In our first encounter with him after the Ultima Weapon, his Dark Crystal was readied and attached to the choker Thancred was wearing, giving him an easy out if things went south. He was just toying around with us back then. In the second fight, he's going all out more or less, and without a human host doesn't expect we'll win. We end up flooring him even after he does a Fusion Dance with Igeyorhm, but with only the one auracite spent on Igeyorhm, have nothing left to deal with Lahabrea. He still thinks he's going to live to fight another day. In comes Pope Thordan, who double-crosses the Ascian and kills him - all the while Lahabrea cannot believe this is happening. Never takes out his Dark Crystal to flee. While his aether was absorbed by Nidhogg's eye instead of Thordan himself, that makes little difference - he was blasted apart into raw aether by that point, no consciousness left. He didn't escape because he was too shocked by the fact he actually lost on all accounts and prior to Thordan backstabbing him thought he was going to get away, and what was left of him by the time Nidhogg's eye absorbed him was only aether. A large quantity, but only aether regardless.

As for what Nidhogg's doing, that's beyond me. I have no idea and generally refrain from baseless speculation. The only thing we know for sure is that he and his brood are going somewhere Hraesvelgr and/or Vidofnir don't know. I personally believe that Estinien may be influencing him from the inside, but that's just me.

Nidhogg didn't actually "survive" or "come back" in the same way the Ascians do. This is going into the realm of conjecture, but since dragons' eyes contain their lifeforce, with enough aether (like the amount contained in an Ascian soul, perhaps? Nice job making our lives even more miserable, old Pope Thordan!) it's not unreasonable to think one could reconstitute their body. The "real" Nidhogg is dead, and we're just fighting a phantasm comprised of his hatred that's using Estinien's body to gain a corporeal form now.

When it comes to making deductions, possible < plausible < probable. While your speculations are plausible, I don't personally think they're very probable (or would rather wait and see what happens before making a guess).

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Originally Posted by Cilia

While his aether was absorbed by Nidhogg's eye instead of Thordan himself, that makes little difference - he was blasted apart into raw aether by that point, no consciousness left.

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I wonder about this... Given how surprised they all were when we killed Nabriales, I'm doubtful being "blasted apart" is actually a kill state, but rather an inconvenience... I mean... They were fairly shocked that Nabriales kicked the bucket... They didn't seem aware they could actually be killed, yet they handed out Escape Ropes with the intent purpose of "If you're about to be killed, use this"? That's... Stupid? If being blasted apart is just a matter of "Great, now I've got to speed weeks putting myself back together, and the rest of the guys are gonna laugh at me!" though? Then the Escape Rope makes sense. Putting yourself back together is a hassle, better to warp out before that occurs for a speedier recovery. Seems more like it's a KO'd state, rather than death. Annoying, and worth avoiding, but not life threatening on its own. If Dark Crystals were handed out with the express purpose of avoiding death, then the whole shock that they can die strikes me as incredibly stupid...

I might need to go back and check the cutscenes, but wasn't the aether trail left by Lahabrea being blasted distinctly Ascian-y? Where as the resultant of blasting White Auracite was not? I'm thinking the order matters here. Absorbing them in Auracite, then blasting that into nothing is a kill state. Being blasted then absorbed is, well, just being absorbed. His aether is still knocking around Nidhoggs right eye, whether it reforms into himself is another matter. Meanwhile, Igeyorhms aether (and Nabriales before her) is just gone.

Going back and watching it, the way the Eye absorbs Lahabrea is fairly similar to the way White Auracite absorbed Nabriales. The only difference is that Nabriales wasn't blasted before hand, and the Eye wasn't blasted to destroy it after absorbing Lahabrea... If one was blasted into pieces, I imagine it would be fairly convenient to then be absorbed into one place after... Either way, his aether is now part of Nidhogg. Whether that means he'll be back or not is anther matter, but Lahabrea is in a distinctly different scenario than Nabriales and Igeyorhm. Their aether was trapped and blasted, Lahabrea was blasted and trapped. The former lends itself to utter destruction, while the later leaves the possibility of escape.

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Originally Posted by Kaiser-Ace

Then from his soul Aether being in close proximity Thordin was then able to swalow Lahabrea's soul. Because to a primal, Aether is Aether.

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Except it was Nidhoggs Eye in the Ascalon which absorbed Lahabrea, not Thordan. The animation is very specific, and similar to Nabriales being absorbed by the White Auracite which, of course, did not kill Nabriales.

That's where the doubt lies; Lahabrea was absorbed by the Eye, and the Eye is still intact. Nabriales and Igeyorhm were absorbed by Auracite, then we blasted the Auracite into nothingness. Until that Eye is blasted into nothingness, there is (IMO) a chance Lahabrea can break out, the same way Nabriales threatened to break out of the Auracite before we destroyed it. Trapping an Ascians aether seems to be only half the battle, and Thordan skipped the second step...

Ok, when we curb stomped Acian prime we dammage Lahabrea and Igorium's coporoal forms forcing their souls to take a dark Aether appearance akin to how the Sahagin Elder cheated death.

The Dark Crystals act as an "On Shit" plan of that happens now that they know they're not unkillable. We traped Igyorim first because she was holding the Crystal and then compleatly obliterated her soul with Nidhogg's Eye.

In this time Lahabrea had regained coporial form and taunted that the eye was drained and we were out of Auracite. Then enters Kill Jacker Thorden who turns Thorden's Corpse into The Ascalon Blade and destroys Lahabrea's newly stabalized coporial body with the sword.

Then from his soul Aether being in close proximity Thordin was then able to swalow Lahabrea's soul. Because to a primal, Aether is Aether.

Darth Vader didn't die when he fought Obiwan. With an ending that open ended it's probably left to interpretation whether he died or not. If they ever get to an actual Omega weapon, well find out then if he's dead or not.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

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As nalien said, you're mixing up the order of things, to kill an ascian you need to first entrap them THEN destroy them, meaning nothing is left after the "blast" which is what happened with nebriales and igheyorn or however it's spelled, the difference is that lahabrea got blasted first THEN absorbed, meaning the blasting away only separated his body, it didn't killed him otherwise there'd be nothing to absorb, thordan would had absorbed igheyorn's remains as well if there was lingering a ether after the kill.

Hence lahabrea wasn't killed but entrapped only and I wouldn't count the sagagin as relevant, nothing says he died, all we know is that he got absorbed (till we killed it's container leviathan that is)

so all in all this is what happened in a nutshell we killed ighewimp by capturing her then blasting her with the eye> thordan shows up and captures lahabrea into niddhog's eye > we kill thordan and his sword remains > estinnien gets his eye back from us and rips the other off ascalon > niddhog uses this chance to overload estinnien with power and corrupts him to recreate his body then flies away to "unknown skies"

I keep re reading and nope, I don't see anywhere the part where lahabrea's container, the eye, is shattered, meaning lahabrea is most likely alive inside niddhog and will most likely use him for his plans as well.
It wouldn't even surprise me if they pull a "killing niddhog ends up freeing lahabrea along with estinien"

Also, one thing you need to know about writing is that nothing is left and much less focused on if it's not gonna serve a direct or future purpose, ascalon being left there is obviously a hint that something will happen to it although not necessarily linked to the main scenario(unless they forget about it and it ends up being a loose end)

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Originally Posted by Nalien

Either way, his aether is now part of Nidhogg. Whether that means he'll be back or not is anther matter, but Lahabrea is in a distinctly different scenario than Nabriales and Igeyorhm. Their aether was trapped and blasted, Lahabrea was blasted and trapped. The former lends itself to utter destruction, while the later leaves the possibility of escape.

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Possible < Plausible < Probable.

Back on point - ultimately, what it comes down to is that there is no evidence to support Lahabrea still being alive in any form beyond what you want to construe, while there is evidence to the contrary and the story presents itself as if he is dead dead. The quest log states that, as his first act as God-King, Thordan "executed" Lahabrea (it doesn't go into further detail), and Elidibus later comments that both he and Igeyorhm were "bested by mortals" and had "fallen" due to their complacency. Flowery language aside, he's saying they were defeated and killed by us because they were too arrogant to believe we could actually do so. Both of them. If anyone knew Lahabrea were still alive in some manner, it would definitely be Elidibus... yet he seems convinced the former is dead. (Does anyone have another language's version of that dialogue for clarification? The English script tends to be rather baroque and thus prone to people misinterpreting it or just being vague. I doubt that would convince some people, but even so I'd like to decisively end this.)

Thordan just skipped the "trapping the Ascian soul in an auracite" by overpowering Lahabrea without using an Auracite. What happens to an Ascian's soul after it's destroyed via Auraicte -> Blade of Light remains unknown, but there's no reason to believe that one-two punch is the only way to permanently kill an Ascian Overlord. (Hell, it wasn't until the Seventh Astral Era anyone believed killing an Ascian was even possible at all!)

Again, it's possible, plausible even, but there's no evidence supporting it, so it's improbable.

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Originally Posted by Kotemon

Darth Vader didn't die when he fought Obiwan. With an ending that open ended it's probably left to interpretation whether he died or not. If they ever get to an actual Omega weapon, well find out then if he's dead or not.

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The difference is that we all knew Obi-Wan wasn't going to kill Vader on Mustafar; they both had to survive to fill their roles in the original trilogy, while Vader had yet to be put into his iconic suit. Logically, the only conclusion possible at that point was that Obi-Wan would spare him (or at least not kill him outright) and something would end up forcing Vader to get his cybernetics and suit. (Kenobi dismembers his remaining organic limbs and leaves Vader to die by the bank of a lava flow, only for Palpatine to arrive just in time to save him by sensing Vader being in danger. Not sure if that qualifies as a deus ex machina or a diabolus ex machina, given Palpatine's character and role...)

Here, we have Elidibus (Lahabrea's intended handler, more or less) commenting that he has fallen (modern English: was killed) due to his complacency (arrogance).

It is a bit open-ended - just a little - but there's nothing that really proves Lahabrea is still alive in any capacity beyond what you want to construe into supporting it while ignoring everything against it. That's called "willful ignorance," or at least preferring your personal interpretation over concrete fact.

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Originally Posted by Phyllo

Also, one thing you need to know about writing is that nothing is left and much less focused on if it's not gonna serve a direct or future purpose, ascalon being left there is obviously a hint that something will happen to it although not necessarily linked to the main scenario(unless they forget about it and it ends up being a loose end)

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Ascalon was left behind because it had Nidhogg's other eye embedded in it, and that was important in Nidhogg's lingering hatred possessing Estinien. That is why Ascalon lingered after Thordan's defeat - that and as Haldrath's transmogrified casket and corpse, it wouldn't make causal sense for it to disappear with him.

Again, there's nothing stating the only way to perma-kill an Ascian is the Auracite -> Blade of Light combo. Most likely, Thordan just overpowered Lahabrea's weakened soul without the Auracite using his absurd power level and owing to the fact he was already worn down from our long fight. Essentially, he did what we do, just substituting brute force for our Auracite.

Right preaty much all the way, except we're imprisoning the conscious soul in the Auracite to separate it from surrounding Aether so it can't run/reform (as happened in the Pretorium). Then we hit the Auracite with the blade of light (Large beam of pure Aether) to obliterate the soul and return the base Aether to the lifestreem.

Thorden basically did this in reverse. He used Ascalon to reduce Lahabrea to Aether, then he ate him.

Lahabrea is probably dead. I can see them bringing Estinien back though. Nidhogg and Estinien might be at odds with fighting over control of the Dragon's body. Maybe why Nidhogg temporarily leaves Ishgard alone. Or Nidhogg wants Ishgard to rebuild before tearing it back down again.

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Originally Posted by MagiusNecros

Lahabrea is probably dead. I can see them bringing Estinien back though.

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I'd rather have Lahabrea.
Come at me.

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Originally Posted by Kaiser-Ace

Thorden basically did this in reverse. He used Ascalon to reduce Lahabrea to Aether, then he ate him.

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Sigh...

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Originally Posted by Nalien

Except it was Nidhoggs Eye in the Ascalon which absorbed Lahabrea, not Thordan. The animation is very specific, and similar to Nabriales being absorbed by the White Auracite which, of course, did not kill Nabriales.

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At this point I don't care if people want to agree or disagree that Lahabrea is still kicking or not, the point here is that Thordan did not absorb Lahabreas aether. The animations specifically shows Nidhoggs Eye doing the absorbing.

Far be it for me to remind everyone that Saint Shiva is still seemingly "alive", after being consumed by her lover... Now we have Nidhogg consuming Lahabrea...

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Originally Posted by MagiusNecros

Lahabrea is probably dead. I can see them bringing Estinien back though. Nidhogg and Estinien might be at odds with fighting over control of the Dragon's body. Maybe why Nidhogg temporarily leaves Ishgard alone. Or Nidhogg wants Ishgard to rebuild before tearing it back down again.

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It makes no sense to let Ishgard rebuild, as I explained earlier.

Before, Ishgard was an isolated City-State, and they were against Dravania. Nidhogg periodically attacked, tormenting them but not finishing them off, letting them rebuild only to do that all again with them growing up hating Dravania.

Now, Ishgard is part of the Eorzean Alliance, it has three separate armies to back it up in a fight with Nidhogg. They're making good relations with Dravania, potentially making allies out of Nidhoggs own sibling/s. The truth behind their history has been revealed and accepted. If he attacks now, they know it's just him being a jerk, they know they have Dravanians they can trust.

Unless he has gone off to find some powerful McGuffin (and most McGuffins in Eorzea are either anti-Primal, or anti-Dragon in nature...), he has missed his chance to finish Ishgard off. Had he attacked during 3.1, then he would likely have succeeded, given Ishgard was fighting itself at the time. He could have left survivors as always, and Aymeric and co would all be remembered as Heretics who foolishly allowed Nidhogg to gain the upper hand, and the truth would have been washed away again. He'd have perpetuated the cycle he was enjoying for so long. He has now missed his chance to do that, because he was busy doing something else.

Nidhogg's brood fled with Nidhogg so...

Records show the Eorzean alliance won't do shit. It's been proven many times. Only time they move is when their cities are in danger. They are pathetic.

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Originally Posted by MagiusNecros

Nidhogg's brood fled with Nidhogg so...

Records show the Eorzean alliance won't do shit. It's been proven many times. Only time they move is when their cities are in danger. They are pathetic.

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If only they were about to change or something...

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Originally Posted by Fernehalwes

However, FFXIV’s patch titles are usually multi-layered, so the “change” mentioned here is not exclusive to the Minfilia branch of the story. It also ties into the Dragonsong War branch as well. As we saw in 3.1, following the dramatic rescue of an Ishgardian by a dragon, the people of Ishgard have begun questioning their heretofore violent relationship with the Dravanians. They have begun to think that a change towards peace may be possible. In addition, the other regions of Eorzea have also detected a change in the winds, and are now beginning to re-evaluate their stance on the conflict...possibly considering action themselves.

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Nidhogg is allowing time for this kind of change to take place, so whatever he is up to, it better be worth it... The Eorzean Alliance has a nice shiny Bahamut-Killer buried away that Ishgard might want to make use of eventually, so whatever Nidhogg is busy with, it better be worth it...

I'm personally a fan of whatever he is up to furthering the plot. If he has just gone off to get help from one of his siblings, then that's fairly boring (though at least better than "Haha! I had an Ishgard destroying device hidden away all this time! That's what I was getting!", since I actually want to see some of the other Celestial Dragons). Conspiring with the Garleans to push for an escalation of conflicts, or dealing with a pesky Ascian he accidentally consumed, can't think of much else he could be doing. Dealing with Estinien might fit, but I'm not sure why that would require him to leave the Aery, though the same goes for Lahabrea.

If by action you mean getting off their asses then great but if by action you mean creating another task for or fighting the WoL then it changes little. So far only Gridania's representative got off their ass if only for a small amount of time.

I would like to see more of the other regions leaders doing something other then "holding the fort".

I'm torn. I want to see the other leaders do more...but I also don't want them to be shrouded in the same plot armour as the Scions. The leaders shouldn't necessarily be on the front lines, anyway - especially when there's so many issues in their territory that has not been addressed as of yet. Hopefully that hypocrisy will be pointed out though.

I also don't want to see Garlemald ally with Nidhogg. Why would they? Nidhogg is essentially a Primal at this point - and even if they're not aware of that fact they loathe the idea of working alongside 'Beasts'.

Plus they don't want Ishgard to be destroyed. Conquered and brought to heel, perhaps, but not destroyed/infested with elezen transformed into dragons.

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Originally Posted by Nalien

Sigh...

At this point I don't care if people want to agree or disagree that Lahabrea is still kicking or not, the point here is that Thordan did not absorb Lahabreas aether. The animations specifically shows Nidhoggs Eye doing the absorbing.
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I think someone doesn't exactly understand how Thorden was using the Eye. Think of the Eye as a Sponge. It absorbs all Aether, regardless of form or element, into itself. Primals, needing constant Aether to survive, feed on aether as efficiently as possible to sustain their existence even enthralling mortals into worship to feed on their aether. So, Thorden uses the Eye, Embedded in his newly formed Ascalon Blade, to absorb Lahabrea's Aether . But, due to him being a primal and a powerful one at that, the moment he touched Ascalon he began to rapidly drain the Eye's Aether. Lahabrea's freshly absorbed Aether included.

If he had won, he would have undoubtedly done the same to Sephirot (The Fiend), Sophia (The Goddess), and Zurvan (The Demon) as well in order to absorb enough Aether into the eye to sustain him indefinitely.

Think of Nidhogg's Eye as God-King Thorden's Bottomless Lunchbox.

This is NOT what we do with the White Auracite. What we do there, is absorbe the Acsian into the crystal as to separate his will from his soul's aether. By doing this we render them temporarily mortal as their Souls are in a destructible vessel. Then by forming a blade of light via some form of Aether Sponge ala Dragon's Eye (Or via Human Sacrifice) we then destroy the Auracite with the, now mortal, Ascian Soul inside thus severing the ability they have that allows them to cheat death. In the process the now ambient aether that was once their corporeal form is now purified and returned to Hydaelyn.

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Originally Posted by Nalien

If only they were about to change or something...

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Originally Posted by Fernehalwes

In addition, the other regions of Eorzea have also detected a change in the winds, and are now beginning to re-evaluate their stance on the conflict...possibly considering action themselves.

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Yeah no, I wouldn't get my hopes up with just that..x)
They miiight be possiiiibly "considering" changing their stance, wow. So much uncertainty in that sentence, that's far beyond the usual "We are being vague for non-spoiler reasons". It's more of a "They'll talk about taking action but will probably arrive at the same conclusion again".
Don't get me wrong, I don't consider their stance cowardly or bad in any way!
Time and again we've seen that they have good reasons for doing so; they have barely any resources, their people have no fighting will for yet another war after the last catastrophe, especially not for one that doesn't directly affect their families and such. All city states are still in the middle of even basic repairs and have lots of other problems they are struggling with (once fertile land that suddenly won't produce crops any more, tons of refugees to the cities, infighting, etc.).
Taking action in Ishgard's war or even just going into the offensive against the Garleans in that kind of state would be a horrible idea. So I'd be completely understanding if they stopped at "considering" vs. "acting upon it".

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Originally Posted by Kaiser-Ace

I'm currently working on the idea that Estinian is working on Nidhogg's mind the same way Saint Shiva is on Hraysvelgr.

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But weren't Shiva and Hresvelgr lovers..?
Now you made my mind wander into the direction of a Nidhogg x Estinien ship...oh god x.X

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Originally Posted by Atoli

But weren't Shiva and Hresvelgr lovers..?
Now you made my mind wander into the direction of a Nidhogg x Estinien ship...oh god x.X

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Apologizes. But the Lore team said that. One Dragons are neither Male or Female, and two don't have the traditional concept of "mating" as humans understand it since they reproduce asexually (aka on their own).

Hrasvelgr merged his soul with Shiva's when be consumed her. Like wise, when Nidhogg's body snached Estinien he may have inadvertently done something very simmilar. Or at least pulled a Xehanort and caused both Souls to inhabit one host body.

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Originally Posted by Nalien

At this point I don't care if people want to agree or disagree that Lahabrea is still kicking or not, the point here is that Thordan did not absorb Lahabreas aether. The animations specifically shows Nidhoggs Eye doing the absorbing.

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... and King Thordan was using Nidhogg's Eye as his personal rechargeable battery. So it should make little, if any, difference whether King Thordan himself absorbed Lahabrea's aether (or to be more exact, "the aether formerly known as Lahabrea") or the Eye absorbed it.

The reason we need a White Auracite is to prevent the Ascian from using their Dark Crystal to run away. If the Ascian doesn't, as happens both with King Thordan executing Lahabrea and in the Echo Flashback to the Warriors of Darkness' past, it's not unreasonable to conclude that just blasting a weakened Ascian with enough aether can perma-kill them.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

... and King Thordan was using Nidhogg's Eye as his personal rechargeable battery. So it should make little, if any, difference whether King Thordan himself absorbed Lahabrea's aether (or to be more exact, "the aether formerly known as Lahabrea") or the Eye absorbed it.

The reason we need a White Auracite is to prevent the Ascian from using their Dark Crystal to run away. If the Ascian doesn't, as happens both with King Thordan executing Lahabrea and in the Echo Flashback to the Warriors of Darkness' past, it's not unreasonable to conclude that just blasting a weakened Ascian with enough aether can perma-kill them.

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I would bring up the fact that we blasted Lahabrea once already but that wasn't a "Kill Shot" as much as Hydaelyn was giving us an Aether powered exorcism to evict him from Thancred.

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Originally Posted by Kaiser-Ace

Like wise, when Nidhogg's body snached Estinien he may have inadvertently done something very simmilar. Or at least pulled a Xehanort and caused both Souls to inhabit one host body.

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Yeah, there's no way that Estinien is dead and gone. The only reason for Nidhogg to be resurrected that way is for Drama (can we save him? Or will we have to kill him to free Ishgard from Nidhogg) that would be completely lost if nothing of the host survives.

As for Lahabrea I'm pretty sure he's dead for real this time, although I wouldn't be terribly surprised if he pops up again.

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Originally Posted by Atoli

Now you made my mind wander into the direction of a Nidhogg x Estinien ship...oh god x.X

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Trust me when I say that you are definitely not the first person who thought of this. It's just a matter of time before someone edits a Nidhogg pic to look like the kawaii Bahamut one.

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Originally Posted by Kaiser-Ace

I would bring up the fact that we blasted Lahabrea once already but that wasn't a "Kill Shot" as much as Hydaelyn was giving us an Aether powered exorcism to evict him from Thancred.

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While we used a similar method to exorcise Lahabrea, he had his Dark Crystal attached to the choker Thancred was wearing, which shattered afterwards.

That's why our first "fight" ended up having him live to see another day.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

While we used a similar method to exorcise Lahabrea, he had his Dark Crystal attached to the choker Thancred was wearing, which shattered afterwards.

That's why our first "fight" ended up having him live to see another day.

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Really? To this day I never noticed the chocker that be was wearing.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

While we used a similar method to exorcise Lahabrea, he had his Dark Crystal attached to the choker Thancred was wearing, which shattered afterwards.

That's why our first "fight" ended up having him live to see another day.

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I'd love for the Scions/Hydaelyn to be called out for that. They make no effort to rescue anybody else under the thrall of an Ascian. Which to me is a clear example of Hydaelyn and the Scions playing favourites - and that Hydaelyn may not actually love all of her 'children' after all, let alone equally. Not that I'd want that particular plot device to be used to save any and all who happen to come under the Ascian's control, mind you...

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Originally Posted by Theodric

I'm torn. I want to see the other leaders do more...but I also don't want them to be shrouded in the same plot armour as the Scions. The leaders shouldn't necessarily be on the front lines, anyway - especially when there's so many issues in their territory that has not been addressed as of yet. Hopefully that hypocrisy will be pointed out though.

I also don't want to see Garlemald ally with Nidhogg. Why would they? Nidhogg is essentially a Primal at this point - and even if they're not aware of that fact they loathe the idea of working alongside 'Beasts'.

Plus they don't want Ishgard to be destroyed. Conquered and brought to heel, perhaps, but not destroyed/infested with elezen transformed into dragons.

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I wouldn't expect the Garleans to ally with Nidhogg but I could see them showing an interest in his horde. After all the dragons are a formidable force and the Garleans are at the location where the Neural Link Tech the Allagans used to enslave the dragons was developed. If they find a way toe replicate the tech I can see them swooping on any dragons they can capture.

Actually that makes me wonder. If they capture a high ranking dragon can they use its dragonsong to compel lower ranking dragons to obey? Back in 2.55 it seemed that it was suggested that dragons effected by the song are driven to respond.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

I'd love for the Scions/Hydaelyn to be called out for that. They make no effort to rescue anybody else under the thrall of an Ascian. Which to me is a clear example of Hydaelyn and the Scions playing favourites - and that Hydaelyn may not actually love all of her 'children' after all, let alone equally. Not that I'd want that particular plot device to be used to save any and all who happen to come under the Ascian's control, mind you...

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It took a ton of aether from Hydaelyn herself just to purge Lahabrea from Thancred. Do you really want her to be doing that to EVERYONE that comes under Ascian control? It'd be playing into the hands of the Ascians to have the mothercrystal drained.

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Originally Posted by MilesSaintboroguh

It took a ton of aether from Hydaelyn herself just to purge Lahabrea from Thancred.

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I disagree with this. The Sword of Light's formation is Echo-based, not Hydaelyn-based. Now, Hydaelyn may have given you the knowledge to form the sword, but the actual formation is all Echo and therefore all you in this case. That whole scene is Echo resonance, so we had a much more direct contact with Lahabrea's essence than we did Nabriales and Igeyorhm, hence being able to cheat our way into banishing him and not needing all of Hydaelyn's power.

The ability to physically manifest the sword of light using external energy defends this, as does Elidibus telling you straight out that your skill with the Echo was what banished Lahabrea. If Hydaelyn's strength banished Lahabrea, why would Elidibus specifically care about your Echo? There are tons of Echo users out there, we're more useful for our Blessing and direct use of Hydaelyn in that case. But nope, it's your Echo that Second Best Ascian pokes you about.

The aether was drained from shielding you from Ultima. What little She had to spare after that was probably used aiding/defending you against the Primals/Extreme Primals, as was Lahabrea's goal and Elidibus mentions in 2.3. Directly banishing an Ascian would take up more Aether than shielding you from Ultima, though, so in a sense I do agree, however, she used up that strength beforehand.

Plus, Hydaelyn has been primary shown as defensive. A shield, rather than a sword. You're the sword, not her.

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Originally Posted by CyrilLucifer

The ability to physically manifest the sword of light using external energy defends this, as does Elidibus telling you straight out that your skill with the Echo was what banished Lahabrea, not Hydaelyn's strength. If Hydaelyn banished Lahabrea, why would Elidibus specifically care about your Echo? There are tons of Echo users out there, we're more useful for our Blessing and direct use of Hydaelyn in that case.

The aether was drained from shielding you from Ultima. What little She had to spare after that was probably used aiding/defending you against the Primals/Extreme Primals, as was Lahabrea's goal and Elidibus mentions in 2.3.

Plus, Hydaelyn has been primary shown as defensive. A shield, rather than a sword. You're the sword, not her.

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Even if it was the Echo or not, we will need a ton of aether as a fuel to cast the Sword of Light.